Gran Turismo 6 general Physics Discussion(as well as video)

[JerseyDriverSS]

To quote myself, "ohhh, boy." Edit - Seriously, what the hell is up with you? Edit 2 - Go drink your chocolate milk (even though I like chocolate milk too!).

That's just it though. They're going to be using racing tires. The Sports Hard tires on the tuned 370z aren't grippy enough for a "serious" race in the real world in a GT3 or even GT4 race (GT3 is faster, right? ) and the stock 370z using Sports Hard tires actually seems normal in a serious race since they're overly grippy for that car in the real world on the road. The Top Gear fastest laps are done with cars that use their default tires. Except I heard on here they used softer tires on a Porsche or something like that, but that's beside the point.


Edit 3 - I should say, this isn't to justify how the fastest laps are being done in GT Academy or to protect the name of GT Physics. But if anything, it's about pointing out that getting a car to slide or become unstable here and there doesn't mean "SLOW". Another thing that should be addressed is that there are no consequences for driving all out on a virtual track nor are you being confronted by the way the car's ABS functions. In some/most cases, I can even say that the matching of tires in the virtual world to ones in the real world is a factor. Well, unless PD has a great system in store for us that means +1,200 will have their stock tires available when you use the default tires given to us. Example: GT86 with Sports Hard tires, seriously?

That has got to be longest most unuseful post in this whole thread and you still never answered my question. Instead you talk about drinking chocolate milk. I prefer strawberry but that's a different thread. Your the type that defines fanboy. If it happens in Gran Turismo its got to be correct because it is the real driving simulator right. Just to give you some background I've driven a real race car on track multiple times(TDI cup Jetta to be exact) I've raced karts that are probably faster then your every day driver. Believe me when I tell you the whole physics engine in the GT series is so far off its not funny. You keep telling yourself that the physics are good.

And if do decide I wanna go after a top 32 spot and I end up at Silverstone I'll make sure I give you a shout out.

And I think you may have misspelled your name.

 

[CoolColJ]

I think a lot of people are noticing the visual differences more than the actual change in feel. That's not to say there isn't a change, there is, but I believe the visuals are more than the feel.

As you say the fastest way to get a 370Z around a track is still to use the brakes to slide the car into a straighter line and plow through the corner. Just look at the top times around Maggott's/Becketts. Pretty comical that's the fastest way.

Well when I watch tarmac rallies and Targa races they do the same thing, so it must be faster than keeping the car composed

Doing it with slicks is a different matter, more to do with the tyre properties than the actual physics behind it IMO.
Faster entry speed and some slip, with same exit speed, so a net gain, is faster than composed slower entry velocity

 

[Griffith500]

It always used to be; it's the tyres that prevent it being viable (/ controllable to the degree that it is viable) for any useful distance nowadays, for circuit racing. And cars used for aero-dominated motorsports obviously don't like changes to the direction of the free stream away from the car's centreline...

But the tyre model in the demo is very similar (seemingly, to me) to the one in GT5.

 

[mister dog]

Than perhaps you should turn off the babys first racer assists. Claim tank slappers don't happen in Forza is 100% false. The only person who would claim it is someone who has never played it.

Level 208 by the way. Expert difficulty since day 1. Can set top 100 leaderboard times. High powered RWD is my main car type.

Did i say they couldn't happen? No; so try to understand a post before you start with the harsh mouth. I use simulation steering and have most of the assists off in FM4 and still i find the tankslappers aren't as natural as in the GT6 demo...

To me sliding in general comes a lot easier and predictable in GT due to it's physics model; but that's a case of opinions and clearly yours is different. But to each his own...

 

[machschnel]

But the tyre model in the demo is very similar (seemingly, to me) to the one in GT5.

I'd say we quite possibly have yet to see the true Yokohama inspired tire model. At the moment, the tires really don't feel noticeably different.

 

[Drennan57]

I'm interested to see how the physics handle high powered RWD cars. For example the ZR1 in GT5 is pretty lively out of the box so i'm hoping GT6 is able to further bring the "raw" feeling when it's all put together.

Don't have my hopes up tho.

 

[Stephanos82]

i'd say we quite possibly have yet to see the true yokohama inspired tire model. At the moment, the tires really don't feel noticeably different.

+1

 

[Imari]

Well when I watch tarmac rallies and Targa races they do the same thing, so it must be faster than keeping the car composed

Doing it with slicks is a different matter, more to do with the tyre properties than the actual physics behind it IMO.
Faster entry speed and some slip, with same exit speed, so a net gain, is faster than composed slower entry velocity

Rallies and Targa are a different thing. By definition, the drivers have limited knowledge of the track. Given that they're unlikely to have optimal corner speeds at any point, the do what minimises their losses. If you go into a corner too slow it's hard to pick that up by powering out. If you go in too hot you can scrub speed until you've got the exit you want.

It's not the absolute fastest way around a corner, but it is an optimal way of approaching a corner with limited information. The fastest way is optimising your lateral grip throughout the corner, and sliding just isn't doing that.

 

[dbarrade]

Sorry to come to the party late, but I was reading the start of this thread with the comparisons of GTA 2013 to iRacing. I played iRacing a couple of times quite some time ago, I can't remember clearly, so I thought I would try and find some video of the rear wheel lifting off, I saw some MX5 clips on YouTube and started to watch them and I was just imagining if this was in one of the GT videos, the comments about it you would get:



You need to watch 1:45 until 2:43... if you are in a hurry, watch from 2:21... it's definitely more "lively" than GTA 2013, but whether that is in reaction to the track, or just some sort of random bouncing it's hard to say.

That white car that overtakes the orange car at around 2:27 is a DeLorean right?

 

[another_jakhole]

DeLorean nice

 

[SlipZtrEm]

But the tyre model in the demo is very similar (seemingly, to me) to the one in GT5.

I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this, as that was my feeling immediately upon starting the trials, and it's been reinforced since doing the rest. Perhaps the updated suspension model and slightly different HUD are offering a sort of placebo effect, but the tires feel largely similar to GT5's. My guess echos Machshnel's:

I'd say we quite possibly have yet to see the true Yokohama inspired tire model.

👍

Following my own ghost around doing laps, one thing I'm still not convinced of with this current demo is the lack of speed scrubbing during sideways action. I can take some pretty lurid angles in the Z, and I won't lose nearly as much distance on the straight-laced ghost as I would expect.

*snip*

...and thanks for reminding me how much I'd like to see Lime Rock

 

[Wolfe]

Following my own ghost around doing laps, one thing I'm still not convinced of with this current demo is the lack of speed scrubbing during sideways action. I can take some pretty lurid angles in the Z, and I won't lose nearly as much distance on the straight-laced ghost as I would expect.

A bit off-topic, but you've just reminded me how a similar issue annoyed me to no end in Forza 1 and Forza 2. Any time I would kick the tail out to intentionally scrub off excess speed -- like Imari was saying about targa/rally -- I'd just keep going and going...forward, while sideways, straight into the gravel trap.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I got around to running a couple of the part lap trials in the Z without ABS and I can definitely say something is different. It's much more controllable without ABS than it was in GT5, especially considering it's stuck at 5/5, a balance I would never use in GT5 without ABS. I compared the Academy GT-R back to back on GT5 and GT6, completely stock on SH tires and the difference is quite dramatic. In GT5 the transition from rotation to lock is nearly instantaneous and there is little feel or feedback provided the really gives you any notice. In GT6 you can sense or feel it somehow and the transition from rotation to lock is smother and more predictable. Easing off on the brakes as you kiss lockup also brings the tires back to rotation in GT6 and some control whereas in GT5 you'd already be spinning before you realized what was happening.

In less than half an hour I got within 3/10ths of my ABS time in the first TT and 1/10th in the second TT. I think this bodes very well for the no ABS crowd for GT6.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I got around to running a couple of the part lap trials in the Z without ABS and I can definitely say something is different. It's much more controllable without ABS than it was in GT5, especially considering it's stuck at 5/5, a balance I would never use in GT5 without ABS. I compared the Academy GT-R back to back on GT5 and GT5, completely stock on SH tires and the difference is quite dramatic. In GT5 the transition from rotation to lock is nearly instantaneous and there is little feel or feedback provided the really gives you any notice. In GT6 you can sense or feel it somehow and the transition from rotation to lock is smother and more predictable. Easing off on the brakes as you kiss lockup also brings the tires back to rotation in GT6 and some control whereas in GT5 you'd already be spinning before you realized what was happening.

In less than half an hour I got within 3/10ths of my ABS time in the first TT and 1/10th in the second TT. I think this bodes very well for the no ABS crowd for GT6.

:tup:This alone good enough reason for me to get the game

 

[Johnnypenso]

:tup:This alone good enough reason for me to get the game

The new physics actually show up more dramatically without ABS but it would be hard for someone who isn't used to driving without ABS to notice the difference methinks. I think when we can tune brake balances in the full game, no ABS driving may actually be an advantage sometimes

 

[Tenacious D]

The new physics actually show up more dramatically without ABS

Well poop. I'm in the middle of doing some homework in Forza, and having to deal with some real life legal issues with some old hag infesting my property and trying to sell my dead mother's antiques on me. Had to take a break and peek in here, and then had to read this when I really should focus on Forza for a while more. Meh, I need a couple of clones.

Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Imari]

The new physics actually show up more dramatically without ABS but it would be hard for someone who isn't used to driving without ABS to notice the difference methinks. I think when we can tune brake balances in the full game, no ABS driving may actually be an advantage sometimes

It's pretty hard to tell when you're only driving at 7/10ths because of the locked 50/50 brake balance though.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

I don't know if it is just me. But I can only see a difference, I can't really feel the difference, not be a lot anyway. I use a G27. Do any of you feel the same?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

The new physics actually show up more dramatically without ABS but it would be hard for someone who isn't used to driving without ABS to notice the difference methinks. I think when we can tune brake balances in the full game, no ABS driving may actually be an advantage sometimes

I just had another session at Silverstone full lap tuned 370z, found something new with the physics, now I can actually rotate the car by modulating the brakes even near the apex, weight transfer effect can be felt even on low speed chicane on the last part of the track. I can't wait to see you time on the full lap, I just had 2:22.374 - no ABS of course, I still can see more improvements, not really pushing to the limit yet as I try more like in real life track days - not to slide around exploiting the physics like in top times Going to try for 2:21s next time All for fun.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

I just had another session at Silverstone full lap tuned 370z, found something new with the physics, now I can actually rotate the car by modulating the brakes even near the apex, weight transfer effect can be felt even on low speed chicane on the last part of the track. I can't wait to see you time on the full lap, I just had 2:22.374 - no ABS of course, I still can see more improvements, not really pushing to the limit yet as I try more like in real life track days - not to slide around exploiting the physics like in top times Going to try for 2:21s next time All for fun.

I have not noticed that. Do you use a wheel?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I have not noticed that. Do you use a wheel?

Nope, stick controller.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

Nope, stick controller.

No offense.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

No offense.

With stick, GT6 physics makes it more twitchier when making corrections - especially when one of the wheels started to lock ups/skid or the rear wheels steps out, gotta be smoother on the steering while the analog is severely lacking compared to wheel

 

[Johnnypenso]

It's pretty hard to tell when you're only driving at 7/10ths because of the locked 50/50 brake balance though.

The brake balance is problematic, as much for the strength of the brakes as the balance. 2/2 would be much more effective for example although still unbalanced. Still, my best ABS time so far is 2:20.2 about 1.5 hours in. Best NoABS time is 2:22.1 in about a 40 minute session with many mistakes. I'm sure I can do 19's with ABS and maybe high 20's without ABS. At this point though I'm at 9.87/10ths.....a little better than 7/10ths...lol.

Idk if it is just me. But I can only see a difference, I can't really feel the difference, not be a lot anyway. I use a G27. Do any of you feel the same?

I use a G27. Just exchanged mine actually because I had that off centre issue common in that wheel. I don't feel much difference in the wheel itself, in the tactile sense which is something I was really hoping for with GT6, but I seem to be able to sense much better when I'm losing grip. I have a pretty decent sound setup and I play it loud and I can hear which tires are locking individually and you can hear and feel them come back to grip as you relax the pedal pressure, unlike in GT5 when on street tires, if you locked up without ABS and were turning at all, you often lost control.

I just had another session at Silverstone full lap tuned 370z, found something new with the physics, now I can actually rotate the car by modulating the brakes even near the apex, weight transfer effect can be felt even on low speed chicane on the last part of the track. I can't wait to see you time on the full lap, I just had 2:22.374 - no ABS of course, I still can see more improvements, not really pushing to the limit yet as I try more like in real life track days - not to slide around exploiting the physics like in top times Going to try for 2:21s next time All for fun.

2:22.1 so far in my first crack at it. 22.3 with a DS3 is astounding, good for you. 👍👍 You've got to get yourself a wheel!!! Even a DFGT... I'm thinking I can get into the 20's if I can put a mistake free lap together. You're right about modulating the brakes as well. Even in the double left hander, Brooklands I believe it is, a very light touch of the brakes can bring the front end back in for the late apex so long as you have the entry speed fairly close to spot on. Of course if you've lost traction and are sliding about nothing will help you, but if you still have traction it can bring the front about and kick out the rear a bit with a little more pressure. ! That is something I could never do in GT5 with a 5/5 BB on SS tires at 500+PP. I can't imagine how much better it will be when we can tune the brakes!!

 

[phil_75]

On replays it looks ridiculous when you just feather the brakes but the animation has it go into a full on nose dive!

 

[Imari]

The brake balance is problematic, as much for the strength of the brakes as the balance. 2/2 would be much more effective for example although still unbalanced. Still, my best ABS time so far is 2:20.2 about 1.5 hours in. Best NoABS time is 2:22.1 in about a 40 minute session with many mistakes. I'm sure I can do 19's with ABS and maybe high 20's without ABS. At this point though I'm at 9.87/10ths.....a little better than 7/10ths...lol.

Which is about the same times as me. From memory, I was mid-2:19s with ABS and high-2:20s without. I'm in a country that isn't eligible, so I've largely given up.

It's more the feeling that with ABS off it feels nice, but I can feel that I'm leaving time on the table. With other sims, depending on the weight balance of the car I'll usually run brake balances somewhere from ~57% through to ~65%. From 50/50 is fairly universally undrivable. Not in the sense that you can't drive it, but that it's completely impossible to use 100% of your braking potential, and so you're just wasting time not braking as hard as you could.

The strength of the brakes isn't such a problem, I've got a knob on the load cell of the brake pedal to adjust the sensitivity. I can turn it right down and get the sort of pedal feel I want out of the demo. But the balance is just so wrong that it's impossible to be as aggressive with the brakes as you would be normally, and thus the whole feel of the car is changed. It's really hard to tell how much of the corner entry rotation is due to weight transfer, and how much due to the rear wheels being overbraked.

 

[MaDHaX]

The new physics is definitely in the right direction and is feeling more like a PC sim, I've played rfactor and GTR 2 which were the best sims on PC from last generation. However there does need to be some fixes. I have around 6 thing's that I would love to see PD give us but 2 of those comes down to physics in away.

1. Wheel adjustment, on PC there is so many different combinations of setup your wheel and can't be too difficult for a PS3 programmer to put into GT6 menu. As it is now the centering spring FFB is too much in my opinion and needs to be toned down. Everyone has their own preference on how to drive, some like hardly any feedback, some like a smaller rotation on the wheel. I want to experience the wheel as real as I can get it and thanks to all the options available to me on PC sim's I can.

2. The clutch is the other, GT6 needs this to be fixed and as good as rfactor, GTR 2 and FM4. These games has amazing clutch physics.

The other 4 things that I would like to see is nothing to do with physics so I wont mention them but here is a funny video of me driving with a weird bug that needs to be fixed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_XOAXvHAs8

 

[Johnnypenso]

Which is about the same times as me. From memory, I was mid-2:19s with ABS and high-2:20s without. I'm in a country that isn't eligible, so I've largely given up.

It's more the feeling that with ABS off it feels nice, but I can feel that I'm leaving time on the table. With other sims, depending on the weight balance of the car I'll usually run brake balances somewhere from ~57% through to ~65%. From 50/50 is fairly universally undrivable. Not in the sense that you can't drive it, but that it's completely impossible to use 100% of your braking potential, and so you're just wasting time not braking as hard as you could.

The strength of the brakes isn't such a problem, I've got a knob on the load cell of the brake pedal to adjust the sensitivity. I can turn it right down and get the sort of pedal feel I want out of the demo. But the balance is just so wrong that it's impossible to be as aggressive with the brakes as you would be normally, and thus the whole feel of the car is changed. It's really hard to tell how much of the corner entry rotation is due to weight transfer, and how much due to the rear wheels being overbraked.

Join the club...Canucks aren't eligible either:tdown:👎 What's with the hate for the Commonwealth? The balance is definitely wrong but I think it speaks volumes that in a two minute lap time with improper brake balance and strength we are only 1-2 seconds behind our best ABS time, something I am quite certain I could not do under similar conditions in GT5. I almost didn't try it for that reason. Just speculating of course, but I think it bodes well for nonABS driving in GT6 provided the current physics make it to the game. I really do find driving without ABS much more immersive than driving with ABS, even if I'm a little slower overall.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

Join the club...Canucks aren't eligible either:tdown:👎 What's with the hate for the Commonwealth? The balance is definitely wrong but I think it speaks volumes that in a two minute lap time with improper brake balance and strength we are only 1-2 seconds behind our best ABS time, something I am quite certain I could not do under similar conditions in GT5. I almost didn't try it for that reason. Just speculating of course, but I think it bodes well for nonABS driving in GT6 provided the current physics make it to the game. I really do find driving without ABS much more immersive than driving with ABS, even if I'm a little slower overall.

Think I need to give no ABS a try. Sounds like it changes a lot of the cars characteristics, in the game.

 

[Imari]

I really do find driving without ABS much more immersive than driving with ABS, even if I'm a little slower overall.

Oh, I agree completely. It makes braking an actual skill, instead of "mash pedal now, wait, go around corner". It opens up passing opportunities, mistakes, and a whole bunch of things.

I'd love it if GT encouraged it a little more, or at least made it so that playing without ABS didn't feel like playing the piano with mittens on.