Gran Turismo 7: Class/PP System discussion

[George Jakob]

Not many, regarding the 338 cars available.

There's only the Vulcan. Everything else are road cars, from street EVs to street hyper cars. An abnormal car, would be a race car built strictly for track racing(again, Vulcan), which is the Gr. class, of course. If it's got C or S tyres, in N class(again, excluding the Vulcan), it's Normal.

There are many more besides the Vulcan but i can't make a list right now.

 

[05XR8]

There are many more besides the Vulcan but i can't make a list right now.

Yeah, I've had a look at the cars in game as I was posting above and there aren't many. The GT Awards cars are road cars for N Class. Anything "abnormal" are in Gr. X.

 

[TiMcF1]

PP system needs to improve from it's last iteration, it too could wrongly calculate PP at times. PP ratings should now take into account several performance figures such as, power to weight ratios, max torque, downforce etc. In this way I would love to go back to the old A, B and C class system, though this time around more refined by a reworked PP system.

The last time we saw the letter classification was I think in GT3, where the top class, S, accommodated race cars any where from the spoon S2000 race car to formula/Indy cars. Since racing cars now have their own categories, perhaps the letter classing system used in GT2 would then be more appropriate.

With the N classification I'd like to see how they would work around cars that have higher performance abilities than their N (HP category) suggest.

Or better, it could be a combination of the N classification system with the PP rating next to it. This could see the power HP rating being absconded entirely, and instead used along with other performance figures as a value to calculate the PP.
A now classic example of a car known to far exceed it's current N500 classification system in stock, is the RS GT3. The classification for this car could then instead be, for example N610. N (road car) 610(PP value). The PP rating is of course just a very rough estimate.

 

[br1x]

I think they have to heavily rework their class system.

The Alfa 155 TC being a gr. 4 car is shocking to me, that class has BoP issues with its different drivetrains alone, now they add historic touring cars to a GT4 "inspired" class.

Where do they want to put the CLK LM and the F1 GTR in? Gr. 2 with the Super GT cars? How do they expect to BoP classes when the cars are so fundamenally different?

Gr. 1 also should be split, Group C racing with modern LM cars ist just impossible to balance, at least 3/4 of those cars gets no usage.

So in my opinion they should add a classic touring car and classic GT class along with splitting the VGTs and Group C's from Gr. 1 at the very least.
If they just keep the 4 classes, most cars will see almost no use and if they are used, racing will be worse.

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

If online lobbies allow for somewhat fair multi class racing with somewhat acceptable connectivity at launch, I will be happy. I just want to race a big truck against a little race car again and have it be competitive. I'm sure the metas will be found within the first week, hopefully one of which isn't the 2J, but as long as about 90% or so of the cars between about 425 and 625 pp are competitive, that is a good start.

 

[tankuroded]

The last time we saw the letter classification was I think in GT3, where the top class, S, accommodated race cars any where from the spoon S2000 race car to formula/Indy cars. Since racing cars now have their own categories, perhaps the letter classing system used in GT2 would then be more appropriate.

Class S in GT3 is actually divided into three groups:

Low-end = GT300, WRC, Clio Cup (note that if you load cars from these groups from your home garage, you'll always get Class A - road car - opponents)
Mid-end = GT500, DTM
High-end = Le Mans, Camaro LM, Vertigo

--

Also an issue I noticed with PP system in PS3 era is that it rewards lightweight vehicles like the Caterham Seven Fireblade, LCC Rocket (this car would have spelled the death of N100/N200 as we know it even with weight handicaps), and GSX-R/4. I somehow know these cars would be break the N class even further if it stayed, but I feel these types of cars (we do have BAC Mono upcoming, though I start to worry about the car's inclusion) could still break the balance of the game in either PP or N-class model.

 

[Balwerk]

I think they have to heavily rework their class system.

The Alfa 155 TC being a gr. 4 car is shocking to me, that class has BoP issues with its different drivetrains alone, now they add historic touring cars to a GT4 "inspired" class.

Where do they want to put the CLK LM and the F1 GTR in? Gr. 2 with the Super GT cars? How do they expect to BoP classes when the cars are so fundamenally different?

Gr. 1 also should be split, Group C racing with modern LM cars ist just impossible to balance, at least 3/4 of those cars gets no usage.

So in my opinion they should add a classic touring car and classic GT class along with splitting the VGTs and Group C's from Gr. 1 at the very least.
If they just keep the 4 classes, most cars will see almost no use and if they are used, racing will be worse.

yes they really need it.

taken caption from that really old GR System explanation, if they based still on this then the Old Class 1 DTM are not fit all. They need do better with classing like bring Gr.A for touring cars, yes we not know how will PP System will play in here if that can be make filtering for the Sport Mode events or just become performance number.

Cars like CLK GTR LM might be fall on GR.1 if we looking on current development, biggest question are where will be that old JGTC GT500 will go? Are that all will go to GR.2 like 2008 Super GT cars or fall into GR.3 since Mclaren F1 GTR on there. If we take historical purpose it will be on GR.3.

Well we will see then.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I think they have to heavily rework their class system.

The Alfa 155 TC being a gr. 4 car is shocking to me, that class has BoP issues with its different drivetrains alone, now they add historic touring cars to a GT4 "inspired" class.

Where do they want to put the CLK LM and the F1 GTR in? Gr. 2 with the Super GT cars? How do they expect to BoP classes when the cars are so fundamenally different?

Gr. 1 also should be split, Group C racing with modern LM cars ist just impossible to balance, at least 3/4 of those cars gets no usage.

So in my opinion they should add a classic touring car and classic GT class along with splitting the VGTs and Group C's from Gr. 1 at the very least.
If they just keep the 4 classes, most cars will see almost no use and if they are used, racing will be worse.

yes they really need it.

taken caption from that really old GR System explanation, if they based still on this then the Old Class 1 DTM are not fit all. They need do better with classing like bring Gr.A for touring cars, yes we not know how will PP System will play in here if that can be make filtering for the Sport Mode events or just become performance number.

Cars like CLK GTR LM might be fall on GR.1 if we looking on current development, biggest question are where will be that old JGTC GT500 will go? Are that all will go to GR.2 like 2008 Super GT cars or fall into GR.3 since Mclaren F1 GTR on there. If we take historical purpose it will be on GR.3.

Well we will see then.

I wouldn't be stressing out about the Group 4 allocation because we see the Alfa racing with the 1999 GT-R GT500 and the 1997 Supra GT500 in the release date trailer.

 

[Skygrasper550]

I think they have to heavily rework their class system.

The Alfa 155 TC being a gr. 4 car is shocking to me, that class has BoP issues with its different drivetrains alone, now they add historic touring cars to a GT4 "inspired" class.

Where do they want to put the CLK LM and the F1 GTR in? Gr. 2 with the Super GT cars? How do they expect to BoP classes when the cars are so fundamenally different?

Gr. 1 also should be split, Group C racing with modern LM cars ist just impossible to balance, at least 3/4 of those cars gets no usage.

So in my opinion they should add a classic touring car and classic GT class along with splitting the VGTs and Group C's from Gr. 1 at the very least.
If they just keep the 4 classes, most cars will see almost no use and if they are used, racing will be worse.

I concur with a reworked Class system. Too many different types of race cars, too few categories to place them in.

There's just no way a '97 GT500 car (Castrol Supra) could keep up with a '16 GT500 car (au RC F). No amount of BoP or suspension tuning can balance the difference in aero between those two cars. Two completely different sets of regulations, despite both being labeled as GT500. The GT500 Supra could work AT BEST in Gr.3, but even then it might struggle. As for the F1 GTR long tail, it could work in Gr.3 since the older F1 GTR is already there, and it also competed in the GT500 class back then.

But still, I do think that GT1 cars and older Super GT cars should have their own separate classes. I do wonder what's preventing PD from creating more classes, like Gr.5 or Gr.6 or Gr.7 and so on. Super GT GT500 can be divided into 3 subclasses, with S5 as a label. S5-1 can be for the '16 RC F, S5-2 for the '08 SC430, and S5-3 for the '97 Supra.

 

[Cristobal1234]

As for the F1 GTR long tail, it could work in Gr.3 since the older F1 GTR is already there

I don't think so, the long-tail F1 GTR raced against open-top LMPs in 1997. It even qualified faster than a Ferrari 333 SP.

 

[Skygrasper550]

I don't think so, the long-tail F1 GTR raced against open-top LMPs in 1997. It even qualified faster than a Ferrari 333 SP.

That's what I meant by 'it could'. It could also not work. Also the F1 GTRs that raced in GT500 had a different, more aggressive aero package than the ones seen at Le Mans. But I highly doubt that the F1 GTR will be in Gr.2, its aero can't possibly compete with the likes of the '16 RC F and NSX GT500.

 

[o000o]

I think they have to heavily rework their class system.

The Alfa 155 TC being a gr. 4 car is shocking to me, that class has BoP issues with its different drivetrains alone, now they add historic touring cars to a GT4 "inspired" class.

Where do they want to put the CLK LM and the F1 GTR in? Gr. 2 with the Super GT cars? How do they expect to BoP classes when the cars are so fundamenally different?

Gr. 1 also should be split, Group C racing with modern LM cars ist just impossible to balance, at least 3/4 of those cars gets no usage.

So in my opinion they should add a classic touring car and classic GT class along with splitting the VGTs and Group C's from Gr. 1 at the very least.
If they just keep the 4 classes, most cars will see almost no use and if they are used, racing will be worse.

The car collection trailer is quite unpolished, with wrong measuring unit for the Alfa's weight for instance. And the class/PP part seems to be not updated like the new trailer yet there.

Though I honestly don't know too how will they work on class system in tandem (true creating more is advised), but PP is honestly the more accurate measuring system even if it's not perfect. I hope, and dunno why people are still talking as if PP doesn't exist honestly, treating as if everything is decided by car class.

I concur with a reworked Class system. Too many different types of race cars, too few categories to place them in.

There's just no way a '97 GT500 car (Castrol Supra) could keep up with a '16 GT500 car (au RC F). No amount of BoP or suspension tuning can balance the difference in aero between those two cars. Two completely different sets of regulations, despite both being labeled as GT500. The GT500 Supra could work AT BEST in Gr.3, but even then it might struggle. As for the F1 GTR long tail, it could work in Gr.3 since the older F1 GTR is already there, and it also competed in the GT500 class back then.

But still, I do think that GT1 cars and older Super GT cars should have their own separate classes. I do wonder what's preventing PD from creating more classes, like Gr.5 or Gr.6 or Gr.7 and so on. Super GT GT500 can be divided into 3 subclasses, with S5 as a label. S5-1 can be for the '16 RC F, S5-2 for the '08 SC430, and S5-3 for the '97 Supra.

It's just that obvious, '16 GT500 cars have much more power than the older one (ranging at just under 500 hp), where GT-R GT500 '16 has 612 hp. They probably should create car classifications based on type (of which they can implement at other menus, but not in the car data itself...).

 

[br1x]

The car collection trailer is quite unpolished, with wrong measuring unit for the Alfa's weight for instance. And the class/PP part seems to be not updated like the new trailer yet there.
View attachment 1090032
Though I honestly don't know too how will they work on class system in tandem (true creating more is advised), but PP is honestly the more accurate measuring system even if it's not perfect. I hope, and dunno why people are still talking as if PP doesn't exist honestly, treating as if everything is decided by car class.

It's just that obvious, '16 GT500 cars have much more power than the older one (ranging at just under 500 hp), where GT-R GT500 '16 has 612 hp. They probably should create car classifications based on type (of which they can implement at other menus, but not in the car data itself...).

Having just PP instead if classes results in even less cars being used if we take GT6 as an example. There were some severely op cars in every pp-region.
Maybe the system is more refined this time, but I think there should be options to use either classes or PP, so if we want classic GT1 races or classic touring car races, we can and if we want to have everything in a 600pp or 650pp race, we can as well.
The question then will be if they have both systems in daily races.

 

[05XR8]

Maybe we see a Gr.2 type situation with just a few GT1 cars in a new class. The F1, CLK and possibly(if the Straßenversion is an indication), the 911 GT1.

 

[br1x]

Maybe we see a Gr.2 type situation with just a few GT1 cars in a new class. The F1, CLK and possibly(if the Straßenversion is an indication), the 911 GT1.

And also the Nissan R390 GT1, Panoz Esperante GT1 and the Toyota GT-One. That's what I hope for

But after seeing the 155 TC in Gr. 4, I have doubts.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

And also the Nissan R390 GT1, Panoz Esperante GT1 and the Toyota GT-One. That's what I hope for

But after seeing the 155 TC in Gr. 4, I have doubts.

If we got GT-one it will be 99 version wich isn't GT1 car, its LMGTP (basicly LMP car) or GR1 class in Gran Turismo.

 

[MIE1992]

While it doesn't seem like there'll be any new classes, I still think it's nice that the PP system returns. This, when combined with car regulations, could still lead to some neat groups of cars being at least somewhat balanced with each other when PP limits are enforced. That said, I'm still holding out for a "Gr.1V" for various vintage prototypes, especially now that we're getting both the Alpine A210 and the return of the Chaparral 2J.

EDIT: And then there are still the four Le Mans racers from the 1950s, between the cars added to GT Sport and the ones that've won awards at Pebble Beach - namely the Cunningham C4-R, the Maserati A6GCS, the Aston Martin DB3S, and the Jaguar D-Type.

If not, then I at least hope for an expansion of Gr.B, either at launch or via DLC, as there are some automakers that were well-known for their actual Group B cars, yet are not in Gr.B at all, like the Lancia 037 and the Renault Sport 5 Turbo. (Never mind other famous Group B cars that weren't in GT Sport, like the other Audi Quattro S1 and the Peugeot 205 T16.)

I also seriously hope the brakes get fixed on the Vulcan, they're quite terrible in GT Sport. Honestly, I think that car is better-suited to Gr.X, alongside the Pagani Zonda R and McLaren P1 GTR. (Hopefully that's also where the Ferrari FXX-K goes, too.)

EDIT2: The return of the PP system honestly seems even better when you think of the N-Series cars that seem unusually better due to aerodynamics, or under-used due to weight, respectively such as the Toyota SF-R Racing Concept and the Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat. With the PP system returning, these cars could find themselves among much more appropriate competitors.

 

[br1x]

I also seriously hope the brakes get fixed on the Vulcan, they're quite terrible in GT Sport. Honestly, I think that car is better-suited to Gr.X, alongside the Pagani Zonda R and McLaren P1 GTR. (Hopefully that's also where the Ferrari FXX-K goes, too.)

But why not add a separate group for them so they can race each other? Why let them sour in Group X where they will be never raced online?

More groups just add a lot more diversity in my opinion, every 550PP race will be dominated by the X-Bow and the R390 GT1 (just examples from GT6, will presumably be different cars in 7 but the same problem) again and most cars dont see any use.

 

[MIE1992]

But why not add a separate group for them so they can race each other? Why let them sour in Group X where they will be never raced online?

I disagree with the idea that they won't get raced online just because they're in Gr.X. What's to prevent PD from having an online event where you're limited to a selection of cars in Gr.X with a common factor, while enforcing a PP range? I think we could still see ourselves racing 1960s prototypes even if they don't make a special "Gr.1V" for them, even if that's what I'd personally like to see.

More groups just add a lot more diversity in my opinion, every 550PP race will be dominated by the X-Bow and the R390 GT1 (just examples from GT6, will presumably be different cars in 7 but the same problem) again and most cars don't see any use.

Not if there are regulations on the eligible cars for certain events. For example, I recall a few Daily Races in GT Sport where you could only use the Group C cars within Gr.1. That's what I think we need more of - car regulations. Otherwise, when you permit all cars in a certain group - whether it's Gr.4 or one of the N-Series - then yeah, you encounter the issue you're describing, where tons of otherwise eligible cars get unused because they're not the absolute best on the track that's being featured. Like how the Toyota SF-R Racing Concept was incredibly popular.

But now that we have the PP system returning, things should be a lot more balanced. Not only will OP cars like the Toyota SF-R Racing Concept or the X-Bow R will less likely to dominate, but lesser-used cars like the heavy Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat could get more use, too. That's before we consider all the new customization options, too. Hopefully, the former group will be forced to tone things down like downforce or something if they want to still race among N300/N400 cars, and the latter group will finally be competitive in its respective N-Series. Or, if you were to leave those cars as stock, then the former group might end up racing with more powerful cars, as they're have their potentially lighter weight and better downforce to compensate. Meanwhile, the latter group might be among less powerful cars since they're so heavy.

 

[05XR8]

We need something like this

 

[soc123_au]

We need something like this

Be still my beating heart. Never going to happen, but I would happily bin every GT Vision car in the game for a roster like that, preferably expanded to go back to 1960. Then have them separated into appropriate multi class races according to eras. What a wet dream that would be.

 

[05XR8]

Be still my beating heart. Never going to happen, but I would happily bin every GT Vision car in the game for a roster like that, preferably expanded to go back to 1960. Then have them separated into appropriate multi class races according to eras. What a wet dream that would be.

The Historic races in GT Sport are similar to the video I posted. PD definitely made a nod to that. Biggest problem are the AI programming and not enough equal performing cars on the grid.

I remember there being a VW Type 1 and Fiat 500 that get lapped on the first or second lap. Out of the 20 cars, the grid should be something like:
- Shelby GT350, Mach 1, Camaro, Challenger, Super Bee
- Dino, GTI, Mini, A110, Gordini
- C2, C3, E-Type, 250 GTO Berlinetta, 2000GT
- Cobra, Cobra Coupe, 250 GTO, 365 GTB4, 300 SEL

The just have to think a bit more, instead of putting one crazy fast car and one Super slow car. Tune cars with their BOP algorithm and adjust the AI.
We know PD can do these things.

 

[soc123_au]

The Historic races in GT Sport are similar to the video I posted. PD definitely made a nod to that. Biggest problem are the AI programming and not enough equal performing cars on the grid.

I remember there being a VW Type 1 and Fiat 500 that get lapped on the first or second lap. Out of the 20 cars, the grid should be something like:
- Shelby GT350, Mach 1, Camaro, Challenger, Super Bee
- Dino, GTI, Mini, A110, Gordini
- C2, C3, E-Type, 250 GTO Berlinetta, 2000GT
- Cobra, Cobra Coupe, 250 GTO, 365 GTB4, 300 SEL

The just have to think a bit more, instead of putting one crazy fast car and one Super slow car. Tune cars with their BOP algorithm and adjust the AI.
We know PD can do these things.

Yeah, true enough. Needs more Cortinas, Capris, Mazdas starting with R, Dattos, Galaxie's and to really finish me off a bit of Aussie stuff would be great.

 

[05XR8]

In that Tuner video, the yellow Supra shows the PP, power, weight, and at the end is a “TB”. Anyone seen that in the other videos?

 

[Hdbd04]

In that Tuner video, the yellow Supra shows the PP, power, weight, and at the end is a “TB”. Anyone seen that in the other videos?

I'm guessing it's supposed to be a turbo installed in the car. Both the GR Supra and C4 are from the same video while the RX-VISION is from the collectors video.

 

[05XR8]

Lord. TurBo. Just the T would suffice. Must be just a T in every GT game. Can’t recall the TB.

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

Some cars, especially road cars, can work in multiple groups, best solution I can think of would be to apply "tags" to each car, making the group system a 'many-to-many' database, like GT League races have always been.

For example, the RX-7 Spirit R Type A '02 can be used in races for:
2000's cars
JDM sports
Coupes
FR
<2000cc Turbo (until rotaries get kicked out in an update)
Anything goes 450PP

 

[MIE1992]

I was thinking about how some screens show a road car in the N-Class with their PP, and some with just the latter. The Corvette (C4) ZR-1 and the GR Supra '20 being respective examples in the post above me. So I had this idea - what if the N-Series class is shown when the car is stock, and then it just shows PP if/when the car is modified? That would make sense, as it'd potentially make balancing the N-Series a lot easier for PD, whereas in GTS, you could fiddle with the power/weight.

By not assigning a class to a car that is modified and by solely using PP in that case instead, this would prevent PD from dealing with the likely headache of balancing tons of road cars, all with a near-infinite variety of parts available to install. That's before we discuss the various settings options that some parts permit, like the full-customize transmission or suspension. At any rate, it would allow for races that involve multiple cars in the N-Series without the worry of "inter-class" cars like the Toyota S-FR Racing Concept or the KTM X-Bow R, because hopefully in GT7, if you try to play with the power/weight - at least insofar that the car could end up qualifying for another class - it'll just remove the class, and only display its PP instead.

At any rate, I'm hoping for a much more interesting variety of Sport Mode races in GT7, rather than either doing one-makes or permitting every car within a class. I want to see more races that permit multiple vehicles, but with a limit on what models are eligible, such as the Daily Races in GTS that only permitted the Group C cars within Gr.1, rather than permitting all of Gr.1.

That said, I wonder if the Nations Cup races should all be one-makes? I feel like it'd sort of make a little more sense, as I feel that it's a drivers' championship where you're representing the skill of your nation, and not a certain automaker. Meanwhile, the Manufacturers Series is where I'd wanna see more car variety, and possibly even classes outside of Gr.4/Gr.3, with Gr.1 having a lot of potential to be a factor, as far as I can see. Especially when you factor in the ongoing VGT program, other LMPs, LMDh, LMH, and so on. Even Alfa Romeo could have a Gr.1 car with the un-raced SE048SP.

 

[05XR8]

I can understand the Nations being One Make. That’s like the old A1 GP and Race of Champions events in the X-Bow. However, in the FIA Motorsport games(automobile olympics), the GT3 and TCR races had the participants race the brand they use in their respective TCR Championships.

At times, it’s hit or miss. We had a choice of WRX or Evo at Lago. There were more choices for the WRX. I chose the Evo. An M4 versus RC F event. I was the only one to choose the RC F. The C7 versus Cayman. Only a few of us chose the C7. So, yes, some races still nearly become one makes due to sheepeople, plain preference of a car over the other and lack of skill in one car over the other.

As for real GT3 cars in Gr.3, even though we’ll see the Ford GTE in that category, I do wish PD had only the real brands that participate in GT racing, available. The real GT3 cars in the game have been competitive enough where the VGTs are simply not needed. For whatever reason PD maybe couldn’t licence the real Mazda6 IMSA race car and Mazda6 Chinese Touring Car, at least those are based on real race cars. Same for the Gr.3 Jaguar, which, Emil Frey had raced the previous XKR GT3.

Also, just my opinion, limiting the choices of the groups works. Especially, for the already short choice SF19 and Super GT GT500. Gr.1 could work better, with a few tweaks to the hybrid programming. We’d only need the real 2016 cars instead of mixing the whole lot.

There are just many discrepancies that may prevent players from choosing a favourite car to one that has better performance. I mainly choose the car I like, regardless of performance.

 

[Cristobal1234]

While it doesn't seem like there'll be any new classes, I still think it's nice that the PP system returns. This, when combined with car regulations, could still lead to some neat groups of cars being at least somewhat balanced with each other when PP limits are enforced. That said, I'm still holding out for a "Gr.1V" for various vintage prototypes, especially now that we're getting both the Alpine A210 and the return of the Chaparral 2J.

EDIT: And then there are still the four Le Mans racers from the 1950s, between the cars added to GT Sport and the ones that've won awards at Pebble Beach - namely the Cunningham C4-R, the Maserati A6GCS, the Aston Martin DB3S, and the Jaguar D-Type.

If not, then I at least hope for an expansion of Gr.B, either at launch or via DLC, as there are some automakers that were well-known for their actual Group B cars, yet are not in Gr.B at all, like the Lancia 037 and the Renault Sport 5 Turbo. (Never mind other famous Group B cars that weren't in GT Sport, like the other Audi Quattro S1 and the Peugeot 205 T16.)

I also seriously hope the brakes get fixed on the Vulcan, they're quite terrible in GT Sport. Honestly, I think that car is better-suited to Gr.X, alongside the Pagani Zonda R and McLaren P1 GTR. (Hopefully that's also where the Ferrari FXX-K goes, too.)

EDIT2: The return of the PP system honestly seems even better when you think of the N-Series cars that seem unusually better due to aerodynamics, or under-used due to weight, respectively such as the Toyota SF-R Racing Concept and the Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat. With the PP system returning, these cars could find themselves among much more appropriate competitors.

I don't think the Chaparral 2J should be in Gr.1V because it is from the Can-Am series, which means it should be in its class alongside other cars like McLaren M8D, Lola T163, Porsche 917 / 30KL, Shadhow DN4A, etc. .

I think there should be a Gr.1V class for several generations, and one of them should cover S5.0 + cars like Ford GT40, Ferrari 330 P4, Jaguar XJ-13, Chaparral 2D and Ford Mark IV.