Is it really that unnecessary though? Keep in mind that Gran Turismo is targeting not only veterans of the genre but also absolute newcomers. My first GT game was GT4 and I still remember doing the licenses for the very first time. Now I don't know how much these brake tests have helped me develop my skills but I'd wager that for the average Joe, who is neither involved in real motorracing nor has played any reasonably realistic racing games before, getting a concept of braking distances is crucial. And the fact that there are two tests actually helps to convey this lesson because it illustrates just how much of a difference the initial speed makes. It's the same for licenses B-3 and B-4. They take place on the exact same stretch of road but one has you using a small lightweight car while the other puts you at the wheel of a larger, heavier vehicle that will get carried to the outside if you get on the power too early. It is these small but important lessons every new player needs to learn in order to get the most out of the game.
I think you are subestimated (or overstimated lol) the people, is so dumb. Even the press play GT or any sim so badly, they do not know how to brake... I even wish I took my eyes off when I watch them play.
The GT players are not the user of this forum
I agree that people can overestimate playerbase to assume that they're guaranteed to be over 'dumb' basic stuffs, but this seems more like that probably GT seems to only target newcomers, instead of veterans. Veterans are expected to not re-do basic tests, I guess. There are ways for them to get around this, to satisfy both sides better (newcomers and veterans), like make the tests optional and not something that is must be done by every kind of players - as if all the players are beginners.Has it crossed your mind that you're not the only person who will play this game? For a lot of people, young and old, this will be their first Gran Turismo. It might even be their first introduction to driving.
Yeah really, for variation or even for teaching part, I want the Licenses to not only teach about driving fast, but also like what CLowndes888 said, teach about racecraft too, like attacking, defending, braking, cornering, slipstreaming, etc. Setup can also be involved too. GT5 was the time where Licenses do something at least outside of driving fast, like the S Licenses being about overtaking.We still saw changes to the start of GT. The Clio "test" at Brands Hatch, in GT6. That introduced players to gauge their skill level.
GT Sport put players behind the wheel straightaway.
The licence tests can still be different. It's been argued through the years, in these forums, that it can be updated. New players may not need to experience what past players experienced, the same way the tests were constructed. That's the point.
We'll see if the tests are optional. Another point that has been argued. Some players don't NEED to do a test to prove they can drive the in-game cars. If GT7 require these test to progress to professional levels, why? Why not allow experienced players to go straight to a higher level of play, while the beginners learn to progress?
They should allow the rooms/lobbies to have License restriction like the GT Mode races.If Sport Mode taught us anything, it's that some people don't how to operate the brake!
How the old one doesn't have uncharacteristic CaRPG vibe? I thought both are based on GT1-GT4's map menus, but one is stylized while the other has more detailed rendering?In hopes that PD will browse the the most recent posts of this thread, I hope that they allow the option to choose between the two Menu options. With day/night they are both fantastic. But I would much prefer to select the original idea rather than the uncharacteristic CaRPG vibe the new version is giving off.
The concept of getting a feel for braking distances from different speeds is also fine. Is the best way to do that a stop/go test like those in every GT Licence test so far? It's also taught in any subsequent test that involves slowing the car, and the concept of "fast thing take longer to slow down" is so intuitive for anyone over the age of 2 that teaching it explicitly all by itself like this just seems like talking down to the player.
Let me put it this way - if you removed those two tests do you think it would take players longer to learn the concept through the cornering and hotlap tests that they'd be doing anyway? I rather think that the first time they tried to brake for the corner and flew off the road the automatic assumption would be that they might need to slow down more. If a developer really wanted to be sure that the player got the correct idea, it doesn't seem like it would be hard to put a trigger that if the player runs wide off the track above a certain speed during the test it plays an audio clip telling the player that they might want to try braking earlier.
It's about having respect for the player and their time.
Lol, sick burn bro. Why is it important to specifically teach braking to a stop? And why can this not be taught any other way or incorporated into any other test?
They're bad at braking, but they know how to brake. GT kind of encourages not braking with the lack of damage and how speed gets carried when you bounce off walls, which is why you'll see a lot of players happily playing like that even with substantial game experience. I don't fault new players for driving in a way that the game allows to be quick. If GT made it so that braking for the corner was always faster than bouncing off the walls or your opponents maybe you'd see more people trying it.
It has crossed my mind.
Has it crossed your mind that anyone who plays the game will likely be a human, and therefore familiar with basic physics? Anyone who will play this game has been in a real car - it's basically unavoidable in modern society. They can probably walk and even run, and so have some concept of how speed and turning works. Should you also teach them the difference between up and down? How gravity works? At what level of fundamental concepts do we assume that the player is familiar enough that they can reasonably figure it out for themselves?
My argument is that these tests are so simplistic that they're unnecessary. If I want to teach someone to make toast, I assume that either they're already capable of picking up and holding a slice of bread or that they're at least smart enough to figure it out on their own without my input. A tutorial on how to place your fingers under the slice and clamp it between your thumb and forefinger would be asinine.
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Let me show you all an example of what an improved tutorial might look like.
The player is actually having to perform the skills that you're trying to teach, but they've got loads of guidance in the form of the racing line and loads of feedback from Tiff. This idea could absolutely be done better, some of Tiff's advice is pretty ropey, the timings can be waaay off and the overall build of the tutorial leaves a lot to be desired. This is from Ferrari Challenge which is 13 years old, made by Eutechnyx who are far from the greatest racing developers ever.
But you see the concept - instead of having players do arbitrary tasks with little relation to real racing, put them on a race track and give them guidance and feedback so that they can learn. Experienced players will do one lap and be done. New players can take as long as they like and will be getting timely feedback as to where they're going wrong and how to correct it. That's how you would teach someone to drive a track in real life.
This is far from the only way this could be accomplished, but I think it serves to show that there are other ways of imparting the same information that are far more fun for everyone as well as being more useful for the new or inexperienced players who are the real target audience.
If you still disagree then fine, but at least explain why you think that a stop/go test is the best way to teach new players. "People are dumb so they need dumb lessons" is not a strong argument.
Hm not sue about plannedI'm pretty confident that there will be no postponement because they are very specific about the date: March 4th!
Well, the icons in both of the old and new menu are 15, so wonder if the speedometer one takes place of an existing menu in the previous one before. I'm trying to make assumptions of every icons below, probably it can be between Special Events or Championships:Beyond the shiny graphics and nostalgia pandering with GT1-4 intros, honestly there's really not much new or groundbreaking stuff here. As many have predicted, it's basically GT6+GTS with improved graphics and the world map menu (albeit in 3D, though I doubt it's free roam-able).
Some thoughts and tidbits from the trailer and various news pics:
- Home menu top left icon is probably a speedometer so machine test maybe returning? Top right is the one I'm really not sure about.
- GT cafe - good way to guide new players into car collecting, but for the rest of us who are already going to buy all the cars, it's a pretty underwhelming feature.
- Livery editor much the same. Desperately needs a better search function that doesn't rely on external websites.
- More scapes are always welcome 👍 Amazing they managed to do this despite all the travel restrictions because of you know what.
- PP system is back - let's hope it works better than N class system.
- Mileage currency gone - bye bye useless mileage exchange. Hopefully special colours and rims are all unlocked from the start.
- Auction house/UCD - honestly I much prefer static dealerships with everything available at all times. Price in auction house is steep but probably JP version. Also Mangusta is mispelt.
- Photo frames feature? Probably just a background slideshow of our photos in the garage.
- HSR is back. Good start but hoping for more original tracks.
- Oil change/engine/chassis wear is back. Not a fan personally. I'd like to be able to drive the cars without worrying about losing power/performance and spending even more money to fix them.
- Body customization similar to GT6 - hopefully the front splitter adds downforce to balance the rear. Who knows if the wide body option is just visual or also comes with full DF like the old Racing Modifications.
- New rims customization (width and offset) 👍
- Wetness indicator on track, but surface still looks pretty static (no puddles, no aquaplaning, no wet lines).
- Physics looks much the same.
- Old Castrol Supra/Pennzoil R34 - but where is the period equivalent NSX???
- Willys Jeep - defo best part of the trailer
- Love the gothic orchestra version of MOTC, but the second music gives me a headache.
- Release date sooner than I thought, but this is PD so a delay is not impossible.
I'll probably get the PS4 version unless it's highly compromised in performance or missing a big feature like time of day/weather.
GT has always been noting that if the part wouldn't be applicable to a car, then the Cr. of that part is none (--). Even it's still shown in the trailer for GT86 one:Also curious what 'extreme' parts would be? Off road parts, like Dakar or Extreme E? But that wouldn't be applicable to an NSX, unless it says 'no parts' when you scroll across. Or maybe they're classing visual/tuner type mods as extreme, whereas the others are performance based?
I wonder if the dry line will form dinamicaly with the passage of the cars, if it works like that than it will open a lot of possibilites on racing strategies. Pls PD make it happen!
Let’s be real here, isn’t most of what we have learned so far just a reskinned GT Sport aimed at satisfying nostalgic gimmicks?
Campaign:
GTS has this too and we currently don’t know whether GT7 will offer something much deeper. GT5 and GT6 would suggest it won’t, and the size of the car/track roster has eliminated hope there’s scope comparable to that of GT4, as the map-based UI initially led people to think.
Licence Tests:
GTS has the Driving School. Licenses lost their meaning with GT5, as they no longer were a requirement for unlocking race events like in the old days of GT. Doubtful this will change for GT7.
Used Car Dealership:
Reskinned Brand Central, but historically also less convenient once you’re past the initial shortage of credits.
Brighton Auctions:
Reskinned Brand Central, but again probably less convenient, unless there’s hope to obtain unicorns for a relative bargain.
GT Café:
Not sure what this is, but it somehow looks like filler without substance. Hope I’m wrong, but it emits a fluffy vibe.
GT Auto:
Car customization separate from the livery editor, and back with the somewhat useless functionality of car maintenance.
Livery Editor:
Now standalone feature.
Scapes:
Expanded.
Sport Mode:
Returning.
Online Lobbies:
Presumeably returning too and likely one of the unknown buildings on the GT World Map.
It's not a speedometer, it's an arrow and target:the speedometer one
That world map looks like it belongs to a mobile game or The Sims. it's such a weird art choice.About that cartoony “world map” interface, I also cannot imagine how it will work as a backdrop for the atmospheric lounge and jazz music the GT series in recent years has become known for. Maybe an early indication that menu soundtrack will be retro-inspired as well, resembling the uplifting GT4 music. Sigh, but time will tell.
I don't know if you'd complain either if Licenses are required to unlock race events or not, but isn't it shown already, albeit in previous trailer, that races require License?Licence Tests:
GTS has the Driving School. Licenses lost their meaning with GT5, as they no longer were a requirement for unlocking race events like in the old days of GT. Doubtful this will change for GT7.
The end probably seems the same between tuning shop and power/weight reduction level, but please keep the educational factor in GT, which tuning shop does.Tuning Shop:
Upgrading cars part by part can be convenient in achieving a certain tune, but ultimately not drastically different to upgrading car performance with a numerical slider, as in GTS.
I don't know what's wrong with a 'fluffy vibe', it's probably a new type of campaign, the car collection element built in as a career mode feature is brilliant.GT Café:
Not sure what this is, but it somehow looks like filler without substance. Hope I’m wrong, but it emits a fluffy vibe.
I don't know what car features that'd be meaningful to you then. Is it only physics and sound? Not likely to happen, but does this mean you'd be against damages as well?GT Auto:
Car customization separate from the livery editor, and back with the somewhat useless functionality of car maintenance.
Menu time and clicking would apply to any stuff in the game instead of only Car Maintenance though? Won't you complain about the others as well? Though that aside, I hope that GT Auto can be accessed in race, in the race's quick menu (the one with Start, Driving Options, Replay, etc.), as other than reducing menu time, servicing should be something a pit crew do.Car maintenance is worse than useless, it's an active hindrance. Just an awful idea, put in damage payments in races if they have to. The thought of PD putting more menu time for mindless clicking activities between me and racing the cars just drives me up the wall
I wasn’t really complaining. I observed that GT7 doesn’t appear to offer much feature-wise that GT Sport doesn’t, although GTS does so in a slightly different form or capacity.I don't know if you'd complain either if Licenses are required to unlock race events or not, but isn't it shown already, albeit in previous trailer, that races require License?
View attachment 1079533
The end probably seems the same between tuning shop and power/weight reduction level, but please keep the educational factor in GT, which tuning shop does.
I don't know what's wrong with a 'fluffy vibe', it's probably a new type of campaign, the car collection element built in as a career mode feature is brilliant.
I don't know what car features that'd be meaningful to you then. Is it only physics and sound? Not likely to happen, but does this mean you'd be against damages as well?
Menu time and clicking would apply to any stuff in the game instead of only Car Maintenance though? Won't you complain about the others as well? Though that aside, I hope that GT Auto can be accessed in race, in the race's quick menu (the one with Start, Driving Options, Replay, etc.), as other than reducing menu time, servicing should be something a pit crew do.
I only ask for the car related features part (where you deem maintenance as useless), that which would be actually meaningful addition for the cars.I wasn’t really complaining. I observed that GT7 doesn’t appear to offer much feature-wise that GT Sport doesn’t, although GTS does so in a slightly different form or capacity.
I guess the real take-away is how the prologue-reputation of GTS is pretty unwarranted, for now at least.
I hope so too. I think it is a bit unacceptable that a car that was introduced 7 years ago, still does not have the detailed interior.View attachment 1079511
I'll start praying for these two in hopes of getting their interiors soon.
The thing is, GTS isn’t really worse off without maintenance, and over time it just becomes a tedious ritual to monitor optimum performance on every owned car. Back in GT5 I ended up changing oil so many times that my mind actually started to wander when doing it.I only ask for the car related features part (where you deem maintenance as useless), that which would be actually meaningful addition for the cars.
Indeed.I also don't agree with GTS being seen as prologue as its feature is significantly more than actual prologue, like having car amount similar to GT1/GT3. The correct term should be spin-off, not prologue.
Menu time and clicking would apply to any stuff in the game instead of only Car Maintenance though? Won't you complain about the others as well?
The point is there are better ways to teach or check people know that than putting them on a straight piece of road and asking them to start and stop, braking not because they need to for a corner, but because the game tells them to. That teaches people what the pedal does but it doesn't teach use in the real world. Besides, I'm pretty sure children of 3 know that a car has brakes. All adults certainly do. So who are they catering to?You don't go into math as a child with trigonometry. Gotta learn the absolute basics first. Which is the point of the basic braking tests. Some people would get too overwhelmed with being instantly thrown in a Ferrari and told to win a race.
Of course, there are many practical license tests waiting for you using the corner. Before that, what's wrong with learning about the basic braking with a straight line about twice?The point is there are better ways to teach or check people know that than putting them on a straight piece of road and asking them to start and stop, braking not because they need to for a corner, but because the game tells them to. That teaches people what the pedal does but it doesn't teach use in the real world. Besides, I'm pretty sure children of 3 know that a car has brakes. All adults certainly do. So who are they catering to?
Put them on a track and see if they brake for a corner. If they don't, tell them they need to. If they do, carry on and complete what could be a full test. Forcing everyone to do all these basic, dull tests every game is insulting.
It's just lazy, uninspired game design. Copy paste what they had in GT1-6 and job done seems to be their motto for game design, and it's disappointing.
Who is looking at that screenshot and excited about the prospect of doing those tests? Nobody. Literally nobody. It's poor gameplay, included solely because it was in the old games.
You're asking a question I've already answered in the post you quoted.Of course, there are many practical license tests waiting for you using the corner. Before that, what's wrong with learning about the basic braking with a straight line about twice?
The game requires literally four inputs. Go, stop, left, right. I ask again, how basic do we have to get before we can reasonably assume that the player is capable of figuring it out for themselves? You gonna have a splash screen on startup that tells them to use their hands to press the buttons on the controller? People don't necessarily know how to use controllers man, you've gotta teach them the absolute basics first.You don't go into math as a child with trigonometry. Gotta learn the absolute basics first. Which is the point of the basic braking tests. Some people would get too overwhelmed with being instantly thrown in a Ferrari and told to win a race.
That's the wrong question. The correct question is what's right with learning about basic braking with a straight line about twice?Of course, there are many practical license tests waiting for you using the corner. Before that, what's wrong with learning about the basic braking with a straight line about twice?
That's nice, congratsFinally, I was able to pre-order PS5, I'll have it within 2 weeks.
I wanted to avoid Christmas and be ready for Gran Turismo 7 !
It’s not about having to just click a button in a menu. What people like about it is that they have to actually look after the condition of their cars to an extent, which mimics real car ownership. That does add immersion for some players. The same can be said about the UCD as well, really. There’s nothing practical about having “used” cars in a racing game either, but many fans still love the UCD and are glad that it’s returning. These things just make Gran Turismo what it is.I would if the menu was inefficient or for a task that had no inherent value. GT4's menus were absolutely horrific for this - and maintenance has no value.
GT Sport for the most part doesn't force the player into performing mundane tasks (besides the horrific vehicle roulette). And vehicle maintenance is mundane, it is literally just clicking a button every x kilometres. It is a chore. Tuning is different because it is tactical to an extent based on the economy, but once it's done, the player can just set and forget.
Speaking of tuning and menus - I also think there should be a menu option to max out the tuning options rather than spend five minutes clicking each button for each category.
For the maintenance aspect - the immersion isn't broken by leaving it out. Even if they wanted to "simulate" it, all they have to do is put a maintenance cost per race to deduct from the prize money.
Either that or "It's the Gran Turismo way". Also not a strong defence. Nothing should be included in a game solely because it was included in the old games. You need a good reason that it's the best way to do something and I fail to believe that treating everyone as an alien who has never seen a car before, or has forgotten everything they learned in the last seven games, is the best way."it's fine, don't worry about it" is a strong defence of poor design.
For changing oil so many times part, that's probably how in GT7 had the part to monitor the car's condition.The thing is, GTS isn’t really worse off without maintenance, and over time it just becomes a tedious ritual to monitor optimum performance on every owned car. Back in GT5 I ended up changing oil so many times that my mind actually started to wander when doing it.
Indeed.
Actually the ideal way should just let GTS players import most or all of their data into GT7, including Driving School progression for License perhaps. Data transfer should return.Just want to know whether I can add my old liveries from GTS to GT7. But I think I have to create much new stuff and also have to sesrch all livery stickers I want to use. Or load them up myself.
Other question is for the Sport Mode. Is it exactly the same as we know with A/S or will they have a new idea...
Really I think Release Date is chosen for March and they start new FIA season in April or May.
Other big question, will there just bea standard version as we see in trailer or ultimate / special / limited edition which gives us special content..
I am absolutely happy to see the Ford GT Race Car and it will be one of the first cars I want to buy.
For sure a car I wanted so much before.
I notice tyre temperature (like in Sport) and water surface track humidity (which could suggest dynamic time and weather), at this point could track temperature be a thing? I also seen engine overhaul in gt auto, that could tell about engine temperature also being possible?For changing oil so many times part, that's probably how in GT7 had the part to monitor the car's condition.
Actually the ideal way should just let GTS players import most or all of their data into GT7, including Driving School progression for License perhaps. Data transfer should return.