Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[GhostChild]

Being a car enthusiast is not a matter of hate or love for a certain manufacturer i guess.

You may not like Ferrari for your own motives but their past and present cars are certainly important from an automotive point of view, just to say.

I was not aware of this a while ago, but some people are no interested in car models, car designs, or history of each one. So there are people only interested in the mechanical side of things or the racing capabilities of the car, or the tuning, really not caring about what car they drive as far as it moves fast.

For me contemplating a good car design produces me pleasure that some people may not understand. As a child I liked to recognize and name cars on tv, on the streets everywhere.

So about the other guy not liking Ferrari, I can understand it, but he was talking about status and the millonaire people who own the cars. He's talling more about the social context. I could not care less about those things, what I really enjoy about the cars is the design, the pasion put in the lines, the specs, the history.. etc

So this kind of people want their car behaves always good, in control, and for racing that is very important of course. While for me playing a simcade, simultor or racing game what I really appreciate is that the game could replicate the physics, the personality and behaviour of the real counter part, even if it's difficult to control.

Anyway I haven't tested the new physics yet, but I liked the old ones in general for road cars. In my opinion the cars that felt really delicate were some racing cars like R8 GT3 and M6 GT3, and road cars like carrera gt so they should have been focus on improving only the ones with weird behaviour.

 

[Td04]

How can people consider more realistic the previous exaggerrated oversteer, on 5-6th Gear on a low Power fr, and the no existent understeer at starting throttle application that we have before?
They ruined 458 gr3 and some others? Maybe..but how many cars now handles a lot Better? I would Say many, and some gr 3 too

 

[Johnnn]

The things I notice are different:
More snappy lift off oversteer
More snappy out of corner on throttle oversteer, but the threshold to oversteer seems higher.

And the thing that is also different and makes it less fun for me:
Less nuanced fast corners, you just understeer off if you push the throttle, impossible to oversteer.

I can't believe you don't notice any difference. You must be a controller user.

Car balance is always about setup. If they added more grip to the rear somehow, you need to retune the car. It's not physics problem at all. Some cars are already good.

Yes, controller user who can see much more than most wheel users. It's about physics and input. You need to separate it first. Most wheel users don't understand physics because they think FFB is physics. FFB is is added and you don't need it for physics checking.

 

[Techlet]

It keeps going around in circles just like RWD cars before the patch.

 

[4everdelayed]

"sub 6 minutes on the Ring with a [car that doesn't exist in GT7]"

Man, you have not only misunderstood my point, you're also wrong lol

And yeah, if anything, I'm not gatekeeping hard enough.

 

[Johnnn]

It keeps going around in circles just like RWD cars before the patch.

It's not. You need to check the right people. Most people don't understand the topic at all. We have many very good opinions here since release. Filter the noise and you have good data.

 

[Ashthebash]

So you showed that you still had to correct the car with steering input and throttle modulation or it'll break loose from a standing launch. What's the issue?

I only had to modulate the throttle on the inters or wets, and even then only slightly. The tyres should have been lighting up but I had absolutely no need for any extra help off TCS, that's the issue. There's too much rear grip, way too much and if you had driven something like the 458 GT3 or Huracan pre patch extensively you'd see how the patch has killed them

What it shows is how impossible it is to break traction in the car, none of the dry tyres break traction, and the fastest way to corner is to break traction and get a bit of slip. Not so much that you have to correct it, but enough so it gives you extra rotation around a corner. You can do that in FRs now, hell, you can do what you want! But they have honestly hurt cars like the Ferrari and Lambo so much

Most people love the update, they're setting record lap times, and that's the end of it. They don't care that the car has totally mental rear grip or that they can hit any kerb as hard as they want, they've just got gold around Dragon Trail Seaside. And after a bright start physics-wise, that's where GT7 is now

 

[Techlet]

There's too much rear grip, way too much and if you had driven something like the 458 GT3 or Huracan pre patch extensively you'd see how the patch has killed them

Are you basing your opinion purely on how cars drove in GT7 or are you basing it on how cars behave IRL?

Because a real Ferrari GT3 driver says otherwise.

 

[Ashthebash]

Are you basing your opinion purely on how cars drove in GT7 or are you basing it on how cars behave IRL?

Because a real Ferrari GT3 driver says otherwise.

And David Perel in his initial verdict on the GT7 physics said they were good, but the snap oversteer was unrealistic

He also said he'd do a video on the physics but that hasn't happened yet

 

[Techlet]

And the underlying physics haven't really changed much with the patch. They got rid of the snap oversteer and weird weight transfer shenanigans.

What we're seeing more clearly now, when we're not wrestling with the cars around every corner, is just how the original physics engine was designed.

 

[xMAXIx79]

Another good example of "Now it's unfortunately too much"
Drive the Gr4 M4 WITHOUT TCS...
And try to get it to oversteer in medium-fast corners at about 100-120 km/h with the accelerator... Something the M4 should actually be able to do EVERY time....

Now he only pushes over the front wheels....
If there is so much grip on the back, something more has to happen on the front... or the grip on the back will only be reduced a little bit on the back... I would say about 50% of what they gave in the patch. ..

 

[Ashthebash]

And the underlying physics haven't really changed much with the patch. They got rid of the snap oversteer and weird weight transfer shenanigans.

What we're seeing more clearly now, when we're not wrestling with the cars around every corner, is just how the original physics engine was designed.

The physics have changed, they've changed massively. Don't see how you can't have noticed that

 

[JDMKING13]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure you spent many pages earlier in this thread doing the exact opposite, arguing with @Scaff who has extensive real world experience, conducts driver training, works in the industry and has a background that requires knowledge of how the physics behind a cars behaviour works. You were pretty quick to dismiss his criticisms of the physics pre-patch from what I can recall.

Apologies if I'm confusing you with someone else though.

Yea your definitely confusing me with someone else… for I said many times I respect and agreed with most of what Scaff said… so yea I don’t know what your talking about…

And you also miss quoted me on the first response also… it’s cool though I’m not even going to get into…

 

[Techlet]

Another good example of "Now it's unfortunately too much"
Drive the Gr4 M4 WITHOUT TCS...
And try to get it to oversteer in medium-fast corners at about 100-120 km/h with the accelerator... Something the M4 should actually be able to do EVERY time....

Now he only pushes over the front wheels....
If there is so much grip on the back, something more has to happen on the front... or the grip on the back will only be reduced a little bit on the back... I would say about 50% of what they gave in the patch. ..

Sounds like it's not an issue with the physics but an issue with the setup. Or does that only apply when cars oversteer at any speed?

 

[Ashthebash]

Another good example of "Now it's unfortunately too much"
Drive the Gr4 M4 WITHOUT TCS...
And try to get it to oversteer in medium-fast corners at about 100-120 km/h with the accelerator... Something the M4 should actually be able to do EVERY time....

Now he only pushes over the front wheels....
If there is so much grip on the back, something more has to happen on the front... or the grip on the back will only be reduced a little bit on the back... I would say about 50% of what they gave in the patch. ..

I think you're finally seeing what I was on about

 

[xMAXIx79]

I think you're finally seeing what I was on about

What does finally mean? Since the patch, I've been rather dissatisfied with the grip that is now available on the back.

Interestingly, not all cars have benefited equally... My KPGC10 still has a pronounced "snap"
And it doesn't matter whether it's 70, 130 or even 200 and more.. a little too much gas and only move the steering a few degrees and already ..SNAP..

Tested on Deep Forest. It is still more difficult to drive than the R8 in the CE BEFORE the patch.

 

[jeffdesign]

So did this little video to show how stupid the rear grip is in the Ferrari, I mean who'd even attempt a standing start with no TCS...on wets?

Have you ever see a real GT3 standing start?

Just take a look at this and you will see that is very similiar to your video.





The new physic are not perfect, some car need some touch-up, but it's way more realistic.

 

[Ashthebash]

What does finally mean? Since the patch, I've been rather dissatisfied with the grip that is now available on the back.

Interestingly, not all cars have benefited equally... My KPGC10 still has a pronounced "snap"
And it doesn't matter whether it's 70, 130 or even 200 and more.. a little too much gas and only move the steering a few degrees and already ..SNAP..

Tested on Deep Forest. It is still more difficult to drive than the R8 in the CE BEFORE the patch.

I may be getting you mixed up with another Max with similar views, apologies if so

Have you ever see a real GT3 standing start?

Just take a look at this and you will see that is very similiar to your video.





The new physic are not perfect, some car need some touch-up, but it's way more realistic.

Was he on hards or mediums? And with TCS on or off? If you can't answer those questions then ...

Irrelevant really

I'm talking about how the changes have affected GT7, one of which being the ridiculous amount of rear grip we have which makes certain cars understeery, undriveable messes

 

[Nielsen]

Which they followed with, “This has resulted in increased traction for rear-wheel drive cars”. So while the tyres are the same, for all intents and purposes, there’s more rear-end grip.

EDIT: Unless you mean compound specific grip and not whether overall grip has changed?

My point is that it’s misleading to say something like “sports soft tires have more grip now”. The change people feel has nothing to do with the compounds.

 

[llNovall]

So here's my opinion after some time on the new physics with familiar cars...and this is coming from someone who enjoyed the launch physics alot, real/right/wrong....didn't care. It was a challenge and the cars did feel alive and forced a level of car control necessary to keep the car on track while trying to explore the limits. Go too far over, and you were immediately met with the snap effect.
Now to the current physics. At first impression, I was a little disappointed, as the cars and the inputs needed to maintain control were much less edgy. But, as I spent time with it yesterday, and getting a chance to really lean on the cars, I have come to appreciate the feel. As mentioned, there is still consequences if pushed too far or too hard on exit, and the ability to stay on the throttle thru sections of tracks you couldn't before did make it feel a bit less edgy. However, these were still parts of the track that you had to modulate the throttle...just now, not as much. What I do like alot, is the ability to trail brake into a corner and get the sensation and feel that the rear is coming around, but with the scrub and friction of the rear tires holding it together. Also, if you manage to dance on the edge of grip, I have been able to induce rotation with that little bit of extra throttle dripped in mid corner or on exit...just don't go overboard.
Imo, the cars do feel more natural and enjoyable to lean on. I do like the new physics update, but can also say I'll miss the interesting "spin" that PD offered initially.

 

[llNovall]

I may be getting you mixed up with another Max with similar views, apologies if so


Was he on hards or mediums? And with TCS on or off? If you can't answer those questions then ...

Irrelevant really

I'm talking about how the changes have affected GT7, one of which being the ridiculous amount of rear grip we have which makes certain cars understeery, undriveable messes

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Also, 991.1 Yokohama Cup cars did not run Traction Control, and no ABS other than the Masters Class (over 45 year old drivers).

This was a huge difference I noticed that the physics were more on par with realism...when you launch, the car bites closer to expectation. Before, the car would sit and spin unless you came out of the throttle or grabbed the next gear.. very artificial. Much better now.

 

[Johnnn]

but can also say I'll miss the interesting "spin" that PD offered initially.

It's still there but you need worse tires and maybe small tuning. I have exactly same snaps as before but I had to do much more than before. It feels almost the same but window for everything is wider. Like I sent it here already, try Dodge safety car, it's beast as it should, you need to be very careful under racing pace.

 

[Fredzy]

The cars are definitively not "too easy" to go fast in. If you think they are, you're not going fast enough.

"If it's too easy, you're not going fast enough" is a mantra of mine, usually spouted at mountain bikers who consider a particular MTB trail, or road biking as a whole "too easy." It keeps coming to mind now but I didn't have the cojones to say it. Thanks.

But also I do think race car tire grip is too high now. Work in progress, as always.

I believe PD compromises on the physics of GT to appeal to a wider audience, but not in the way we tend to think. I believe they intend to make the physics as realistic as possible and they struggle with that due to their use of a simplified physics model. Simpler physics calculations reduce the burden on the console to allow more focus on graphical qualities, which is what (again, I believe) PD has settled on as it's "strong suit" that takes priority over physics accuracy. GT is known for looking incredible first and foremost. This is what the masses expect, hence compromised physics in exchange for graphics, for the masses. All speculation by me!

We are past the point in the driving game genre where high realism is a problem. All gamers/sim drivers who are even a little bit into this can handle high realism and tend to enjoy more realistic physics. For the "masses" that can't quite find the patience for true realism, there are two key things to make it palatable: unrealistic but good driving aids and proper game pad controls. Unrealistic driving aids in that they go above and beyond what real world driving aids do, and good in that they still make driving seem fun without creating any unfair advantages (skid recovery force anyone?) They still slow you down. I think GT does such a good job with aids and game pad control that they can now be free to make the raw driving physics as realistic as possible.

 

[Stakado]

There are some strange things yet.
In the CE of dragon trail seaside with the gr3 jaguar, the piano in the chicane of death causes more traction loss than before the patch.
Also, I have a Toyota 86 '22 tuned to get gr4 specs and was totally on rails before the 1.13 version, but now it want to oversteer all the time and lose traction on fast turns

 

[Warte]

I will be cautiously optimistic, due to the wording used by PD in the last update.

In this patch, they corrected the rear suspension geometry calculations, not tire grip levels. Before I felt like we were running with broken ankles.

Since our ankles are fixed, only now we can perceive that the friction circle is a little larger than what it should be, and maybe in the next patch the circle will be recalculated.

But I enjoyed the last update, and they are going in the right direction. Running with broken ankles isn't cool, setups can't go around a broken suspension, and usually cars don't try to kill you every step of the way, only when you push them to incorrect behaviors. I understand that now the understeer is incorrectly predominant in some situations (like that Ferrari video, when he was clearly rotating the car at Parabolica), but keep in mind that understeer also happens with race cars if you put them in specific sittuations, so with realistic physics it should be present too. With a small steering rotation, not necessarily an accelerating car will oversteer, specially if the directional stability is correctly setup by the manufacturer (the moment can invert its direction if you apply more steering, but then its you putting the car in its incorrect behavior XD). Harder isn't necessarily realistic.

 

[BigSarj]

 

[RedRockValley]

Once again, I feel like I'm playing a different game to these people.

Did the Alsace CE yesterday with the RS01 GT3, there was definitely moments where the car would break traction and I would need to be precise with my inputs as to not upset the car any further.

 

[Sasek]

Short opinion from me, I have over 1200 hours in AC, over 300 hours in ACC and many hundreds of hours in other sims and I have to say that the changes went in the right direction, but still not perfect. Especially in cars with high downforce, there is still a lot of room for improvement, but what happened with road cars is definitely a good progress.

 

[JDMKING13]

The road cars feel really good and I want to @extreme car bro I have to admit but you were right… while I could control the cars before the update, with the new update the cars feel more natural and not so edgy.. understeer is also more noticeable but it’s a sweet balance in my opinion between that and oversteer.. you still can enter a turn with entry oversteer which is cool. Braking is better but still requires nice balance. The driving feels a lot more natural I will admit, and the edgy while I still feel it, it not smack you in your face.

 

[GlamFM]

I think I like it more right now - at least in the dry that is.

In wet conditions - jesus christ.

I think something is not right with ABS, TCS and rain physics.

Is ABS not simulated at all? It feels so tbh.

I notice a difference between TCS 0 and 1, but 1 to 5? Barely if at all.

Are rain physics serioulsy random overall? Using ACC as a reference here I find everything relating to rain in GT7 completely unpredictable.