Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[SPOOLMAN]

I Don't know why the video slows down at times. Bit rate is high as it can go.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

I don't follow nor do I care GT racing too much so I don't really know how the car should react on corner with a really poor driving and TCS off, but have you tried golding the NSX Gr.2 sector 1 at suzuka CE? the only time I spun out was when i hit the 2nd corner curb wrong, the rest of the corner you just have to steer and mash the throttle and the car stick like it's on rail almost impossible to spin the car even with bad steering and throttle, is this the correct behaviour for a super GT car? If it is then I'm happy they tweaked the physics to this degree because I don't really race Gr. cars in GT7, I did it to farm credits.

EDIT: couldn't find any on board video of the said nsx with my little time researching but found this video where the NSX did a full lap while racing other super GT cars for reference. still have to account the tyre wear and temp IRL cause he was racing other cars.

I'm more into motorcycles than cars, but since sporty motorcycles handle in large like race cars I think it's still a relevant comparison.

Getting on the throttle should just lead to gradual understeer, but not because the front loses traction, but because the turning radius increases for suspension and tyre reasons. So on a motorcycle you lean down and then steer with throttle/brake, without braking traction, and in a race car it should be the same but instead of leaning you turn the wheel.

Then there are all kinds of characteristics in lesser vehicles that make them over- or understeer too much. My guess is that higher group cars IRL have less of these, and that F1 and Super Formula cars have perfect chassis IRL as well as in the game, as well as the Redbull X2019 competition car in the game. Unless you brake traction at the rear, which you never should, they are supposed to understeer out of corners. More throttle to decrease turning radius is insane, even though I do it with some cars in slow hairpins.

 

[Johnnn]

I think there is a huge gap between people playing with a wheel and the other playing with a controller, the last update seems to improve the way the cars acts with a controller for the best, but with a wheel it's a mixed feeling

I'm not professional driver, I've limited experience on trackday, but what I know for sure, it's before the last update with my wheel the game was challenging and giving me a lot of information (maybe too difficult, OK), but now, it feels dead
I think the mains complains now are from wheels users

I wish they add two separate mode

It must be the same. There is no reason for two modes because gamepad is the same input as a wheel. Like it could be dead now? It's the same but different pedals and higher overall or mostly rear grip.

 

[kartman21]

It must be the same. There is no reason for two modes because gamepad is the same input as a wheel. Like it could be dead now? It's the same but different pedals and higher overall or mostly rear grip.

not really, and since the last patch FFB on my wheel (T300RS) has change for the worst, gamepad users don't seems to have any problems

 

[xMAXIx79]

It must be the same. There is no reason for two modes because gamepad is the same input as a wheel. Like it could be dead now? It's the same but different pedals and higher overall or mostly rear grip.

Sorry but what you wrote here is not correct.
There is a huge difference between the pad and the steering wheel, and rightly so... no pad driver in the world could possibly survive a race with a pad if the inputs were implemented as sensitively and 100% via the stick as at a steering wheel. You can also see this very well when you watch a vehicle being driven by a pad. It shakes back and forth all the time when the driver corrects the line slightly.. if a steering wheel driver makes such inputs via his steering wheel, the car will rock. Or steering and correcting in curves, the steering input at the pad is "delayed" passed on to the car. So that the steering turns more slowly than the stick is moved, if this "automatism" did not work, many pad users' cars would simply drive straight ahead in curves because their wheels are turned and the grip would tear off immediately.

 

[Mister_XFR]

Well I may have just run into a car that might have been negatively impacted by the update… I was doing the S-8 license with the Pagani Zonda R on Interlagos and it understeers to the point where I can barely get it through corners. I’m not sure how it drove before because I don’t own one in the game but I don’t remember having issues with it on the High Speed Ring circuit experience.

 

[Tenacious D]

It must be really hard to find the right balance in a physics engine so that such a wide variety of cars can handle in a somewhat believable manner.

I sort of see this, but I think it's a slightly different matter. A good physics build is really tough, but this one looks good. The way cars bounce and carom in wrecks is much more lifelike in GT7. I think the real matter is a combo of a physics engine that's close to real life and could be better, but combined with values assigned to the cars and their setups which is a bit off. These two factors combined make for a driving experience which is a bit odd sometimes. For instance, I think the consensus among tuners is that the suspension still reads better in the PP system when it's lowered, but performs on track better when it's higher, which is obviously wrong. I refuse to raise my cars, it just isn't racey.

The Performance Points system is still janky. I still have the same jumps as before, but now they're at slightly different points. When they get their physics smoothed out, and their associated car data right, this should be an amazing racer.

 

[Johnnn]

Sorry but what you wrote here is not correct.
There is a huge difference between the pad and the steering wheel, and rightly so... no pad driver in the world could possibly survive a race with a pad if the inputs were implemented as sensitively and 100% via the stick as at a steering wheel. You can also see this very well when you watch a vehicle being driven by a pad. It shakes back and forth all the time when the driver corrects the line slightly.. if a steering wheel driver makes such inputs via his steering wheel, the car will rock. Or steering and correcting in curves, the steering input at the pad is "delayed" passed on to the car. So that the steering turns more slowly than the stick is moved, if this "automatism" did not work, many pad users' cars would simply drive straight ahead in curves because their wheels are turned and the grip would tear off immediately.

What? Are you serious? Check some gamepad aliens if they are shaky. It's not about GT7 where implementation is very good but about serious sims without any helpers. It's completely the same but you need much higher skill for gamepad. And pedal are probably better by hands.

 

[Gabe777]

I wouldn’t get hung up on the current physics, they will be working on this for years. To me they are fine right now, but they could always improve.

I think most of my issues stem from using a G29, my dualsense controller with stick drift gives me more sensations than my wheel does.

Don't blame the wheel. My G29 works just fine with every other driving game out there.

It is PDs implementation ... or rather LACK of implementation of FFB that is to blame.

If I do Tsukuba in 1 minute 10 seconds with the wheel, I'll do under a minute with the controller, while vaping at the same time, and doing my Wordle with one eye.

......Although everything Logitech, relatively speaking, is a piece of junk... to be fair.

 

[extreme car]

Power rwd car still want to kill you,just a lil more softly 😀

just tried the carrera GT at big willow and I disagree, it spits on your face first then shoot you in the head.



such a rewarding car to drive though when you get it right. meanwhile the 997 GT3 is now much more predictable and fun to drive, too bad it's still missing that porsche 911 trademark understeer when you feeding the throttle slowly on high speed corner.

I'm more into motorcycles than cars, but since sporty motorcycles handle in large like race cars I think it's still a relevant comparison.

Getting on the throttle should just lead to gradual understeer, but not because the front loses traction, but because the turning radius increases for suspension and tyre reasons. So on a motorcycle you lean down and then steer with throttle/brake, without braking traction, and in a race car it should be the same but instead of leaning you turn the wheel.

I'm even more clueless when it comes to bikes, so I just can't relate to what you're saying at all sorry.

Then there are all kinds of characteristics in lesser vehicles that make them over- or understeer too much. My guess is that higher group cars IRL have less of these, and that F1 and Super Formula cars have perfect chassis IRL as well as in the game, as well as the Redbull X2019 competition car in the game. Unless you brake traction at the rear, which you never should, they are supposed to understeer out of corners. More throttle to decrease turning radius is insane, even though I do it with some cars in slow hairpins.

They're supposed to understeer out of corners even with bad steering and throttle input? that was my main problem with the new Gr. cars physics cause I literaly mash the throttle and the rear doesn't break traction at all it stuck to road like a glue with a hint of understeer. I'd like if you try and gold the sector 1 suzuka CE to see what I mean, in the 2 hours of me trying to gold that sector not once have I spun out with my poor throttle control.

 

[BrunusCL82]

I never commented on this topic, because I think the criticisms against the original model of physics were true.

Now, after the 1.13 change, there was an overkill and made the game absurdly easy. I'm pushing my foot on the accelerator at TCS 0 in Gr.3, and there is never any risk of oversteer.

I think the middle ground would be the best way.

 

[JDMKING13]

Hmmm… Does anyone have ACC for PS5? If you do Get the lambo 15 evo for both games, and do a couple laps around Spa. Both cars from both games are pretty much planted and feel pretty similar.. Ran the lambo with TC1 in ACC and no TCS in GT7. I would say the the ACC version I would get a little rear kick out with aggressive throttle but nothing alarming.. GT7 was a lot more planted but the chassis balance is a lot more challenging which can make you loose traction. Overall I think the GT3 lambo while planted was still extremely challenging to go fast and set a good time. I had on RH tires.

Off topic.. GT7 Spa 24 hour layout looks incredible especially at night! I mean it looks way better than ACC version which just looks dark with dim lighting.

 

[s0cks]

Well I played a few hours last night. I think the extra rear grip is welcomed, but at the same time the driving seems more stale now, which I think is because the car seems to not be unsettled easily at all - it's more like GT Sport. Still, I think it is better overall.

That said, I fear I have been spoiled by PC sims now. GT7 drove me away to try other sims as I wasn't getting a good racing experience, and after a number of weeks in iRacing, pCars2, AMS2, and a heavily modded GTR2, I have to say the driving in GT7 feels pretty lifeless. It's a combination of both physics and FFB. The physics I touched on above, but the FFB is just atrocious on the T300. Very lifeless - very little feel through the wheel. I can sum up GT7 FFB in 3 forces - understeer vibration, light wheel when grip is lost, and the occasional bump - that's it. I don't know if it's my wheel (as others with same wheel claim they feel everything) but all I can say is it feels great on all the PC sims, whereas in GT7 it just feels like a way to turn the car, rather than creating a connection between the driver and the road.

I'm definitely struggling to find the motivation to play GT7. A few hours of CE and daily race A and I felt bored. Was excited to boot up AMS2 and continue my F3 championship. The difference in the feel of the drive is night and day.

 

[Techlet]

FFB has been shoddy since release. Still a lot of work for PD to do.

 

[kartman21]

Hmmm… Does anyone have ACC for PS5? If you do Get the lambo 15 evo for both games, and do a couple laps around Spa. Both cars from both games are pretty much planted and feel pretty similar.. Ran the lambo with TC1 in ACC and no TCS in GT7. I would say the the ACC version I would get a little rear kick out with aggressive throttle but nothing alarming.. GT7 was a lot more planted but the chassis balance is a lot more challenging which can make you loose traction. Overall I think the GT3 lambo while planted was still extremely challenging to go fast and set a good time. I had on RH tires.

Off topic.. GT7 Spa 24 hour layout looks incredible especially at night! I mean it looks way better than ACC version which just looks dark with dim lighting.

I do, yes I agree they can feel similar, BUT there's a huge lack of feedback in GT7 (FFB) that kill the immersion

 

[JDMKING13]

I do, yes I agree they can feel similar, BUT there's a huge lack of feedback in GT7 (FFB) that kill the immersion

It’s weird for me because I love the road and tire sensations you in ACC, but as for what the chassis is doing I can’t really feel a thing.. GT7 has little road feel only when going straight for me, and I can feel what the tires are doing.. ACC just feel more natural to me on tire sensation VS GT7 I can feel the tires when I’m at full grip or when I’m losing grip. GT7 when it comes to what the chassis is doing is great for me and why I just really enjoy the overall driving in GT just as much as ACC.

 

[LSFDRX]

Well, just got done with the Deep Forest and Catalunya CEs which I did today specifically because they use the R8 and Huracan Gr3 cars and.... ugh. They both still suck, but now even more and for opposite reasons. They are both worse than they were pre-patch. The CEs still only took at most 4 attempts to Gold with these pigs, but the cars were chores to drive, and almost anti-fun.

This stupid balance between insane on throttle grip, and ludicrous off throttle oversteer is just flat out wrong. The cars are never just content, they're always in some lame state of under or oversteer. At least before you could use the throttle to maintain the balance, but now with this crazy understeer the cars never settle into a corner. It's either push into understeer, let off and manage oversteer, or rest in some slow attempt at balance. Not to mention that the R8 is still insane on the brakes with 0 brake balance, if you move bias forward it helps, but regardless anything in the track that allows the rear to get light all of a sudden becomes an exercise in snap-over and snap-back as the fast steering rack doesn't leave a lot of room for large corrections. There are a couple spots on Deep Forest that the R8 is simply never solid on through sector 2.

I miss balancing the cars with throttle, not see-sawing between over and understeer. The fronts now never seem to really bite the tarmac, the rears grip too much on throttle, and not enough on decel. The balance of these things is ruined. I hope the RCZ isn't so broken, but I have yet to try it out.

I'm still really enjoying most of what the patch did, but it's all for the road cars. Now if we could make the GT3 machines into something that exemplifies a true racing car, it would be much appreciated.

This also not a rant about "they're not like real life", it's a rant about how these cars suck to drive and aren't fun anymore even though they are "faster".

 

[kartman21]

It’s weird for me because I love the road and tire sensations you in ACC, but as for what the chassis is doing I can’t really feel a thing.. GT7 has little road feel only when going straight for me, and I can feel what the tires are doing.. ACC just feel more natural to me on tire sensation VS GT7 I can feel the tires when I’m at full grip or when I’m losing grip. GT7 when it comes to what the chassis is doing is great for me and why I just really enjoy the overall driving in GT just as much as ACC.

maybe, it's the overall feeling, FFB on GT3 wasn't great before the last update but works, now it's strange, like some others says it's a bit like GT sport FFB, and personally, I hate it, I will wait for the next GT7 patch with the hope they do something about it, in the meanwhile there's plenty of other racing game to enjoy
thanks for the feedback !

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

just tried the carrera GT at big willow and I disagree, it spits on your face first then shoot you in the head.



such a rewarding car to drive though when you get it right. meanwhile the 997 GT3 is now much more predictable and fun to drive, too bad it's still missing that porsche 911 trademark understeer when you feeding the throttle slowly on high speed corner.




I'm even more clueless when it comes to bikes, so I just can't relate to what you're saying at all sorry.

They're supposed to understeer out of corners even with bad steering and throttle input? that was my main problem with the new Gr. cars physics cause I literaly mash the throttle and the rear doesn't break traction at all it stuck to road like a glue with a hint of understeer. I'd like if you try and gold the sector 1 suzuka CE to see what I mean, in the 2 hours of me trying to gold that sector not once have I spun out with my poor throttle control.

Well, my belief is that a car never should be able to power oversteer out of corners. It's cool and fun but ineffective and dangerous. If the suspension works, the tyres are appropriate and it's dry and hot, it should stick when racing normally - that's the fastest way. But of course, pavement and tyres aren't perfect, and suspension can't compensate for every bump, so of course you can't be totally stupid unless the tyres are stupidly oversized, which is also slow.
Many cars, most powerful RWD road cars with electronics turned off, would be lethal though. My guess is that they can snap from understeer to gross oversteer easily. Hence all the Youtube clips of stupid crashes...

F1 cars normally don't power oversteer out of corners, right? If they apply throttle too much but gradually, it should understeer. Sporty motorcycles behave the same way.

If a corner decreases in radius mid-corner IRL, do you apply throttle to turn more or let go of the throttle and maybe touch the front brakes a bit? The latter is the only safe and fast way on a motorcycle, and a well balanced car should behave the same. Going fast on a track isn't any different.

I golded CE Suzuka before the patch. The first sector was painful. The rest was easy. My guess is that even the first sector would be relatively easy now (for someone dedicated and experienced).

 

[Johnnn]

Well I played a few hours last night. I think the extra rear grip is welcomed, but at the same time the driving seems more stale now, which I think is because the car seems to not be unsettled easily at all - it's more like GT Sport. Still, I think it is better overall.

That said, I fear I have been spoiled by PC sims now. GT7 drove me away to try other sims as I wasn't getting a good racing experience, and after a number of weeks in iRacing, pCars2, AMS2, and a heavily modded GTR2, I have to say the driving in GT7 feels pretty lifeless. It's a combination of both physics and FFB. The physics I touched on above, but the FFB is just atrocious on the T300. Very lifeless - very little feel through the wheel. I can sum up GT7 FFB in 3 forces - understeer vibration, light wheel when grip is lost, and the occasional bump - that's it. I don't know if it's my wheel (as others with same wheel claim they feel everything) but all I can say is it feels great on all the PC sims, whereas in GT7 it just feels like a way to turn the car, rather than creating a connection between the driver and the road.

I'm definitely struggling to find the motivation to play GT7. A few hours of CE and daily race A and I felt bored. Was excited to boot up AMS2 and continue my F3 championship. The difference in the feel of the drive is night and day.

LOL, I am spoiled by PC too and that's the reason I love GT7 so much. Amazing graphics, track details look like completely own league, physics is great, at least for console-first game, sounds great. OK, AI is a trash. But everything else is superb. And I am very spoiled by best sims on PC. At least something good is there. My current schedule is ACC and rF2 on PC when I have time, Horizon 5 for weekly stuff and everything else is for GT7.

 

[HugoTwoWheels]

AI is a trash

This has to be undisputed. Even I, who's generally thankful for stuff, find it to be a waste of company resources and space in the track. Probably everyone at PD agreed as well.

Sophy however should be an interesting addition!

 

[Johnnn]

This has to be undisputed. Even I, who's generally thankful for stuff, find it to be a waste of company resources and space in the track. Probably everyone at PD agreed as well.

Sophy however should be an interesting addition!

True. That's PC's work too. I can set R3E so precise I don't even trust it's just AI. It feels so good.

 

[TNumbers1946]

Please remember the stock setups are not always optimal for a specific car. This was the case before the update and still is the case afterwards. The 458 for example imo suffers a ton from this but after dialing in some settings it still understeers on acceleration a little (which makes sense) but it didn't feel like it was plowing through the turns as harshly like some people are claiming.

 

[s0cks]

LOL, I am spoiled by PC too and that's the reason I love GT7 so much. Amazing graphics, track details look like completely own league, physics is great, at least for console-first game, sounds great. OK, AI is a trash. But everything else is superb. And I am very spoiled by best sims on PC. At least something good is there. My current schedule is ACC and rF2 on PC when I have time, Horizon 5 for weekly stuff and everything else is for GT7.

Different experience for me. Everything is better on the PC sims. Even the graphics, because I have GT7 on the rather old PS4 Pro. The actual racing experience on PC sims leaves GT7 in the dust though, as GT7 has such trash AI. And at the end of the day, that's where the fun is for me, racing. Sport mode in GT7 is a bit of a mess too, so I'm finding myself booting up iRacing for my multiplayer fix.

 

[LSFDRX]

Well, my belief is that a car never should be able to power oversteer out of corners. It's cool and fun but ineffective and dangerous. If the suspension works, the tyres are appropriate and it's dry and hot, it should stick when racing normally - that's the fastest way. But of course, pavement and tyres aren't perfect, and suspension can't compensate for every bump, so of course you can't be totally stupid unless the tyres are stupidly oversized, which is also slow.
Many cars, most powerful RWD road cars with electronics turned off, would be lethal though. My guess is that they can snap from understeer to gross oversteer easily. Hence all the Youtube clips of stupid crashes...

F1 cars normally don't power oversteer out of corners, right? If they apply throttle too much but gradually, it should understeer. Sporty motorcycles behave the same way.

If a corner decreases in radius mid-corner IRL, do you apply throttle to turn more or let go of the throttle and maybe touch the front brakes a bit? The latter is the only safe and fast way on a motorcycle, and a well balanced car should behave the same. Going fast on a track isn't any different.

I golded CE Suzuka before the patch. The first sector was painful. The rest was easy. My guess is that even the first sector would be relatively easy now (for someone dedicated and experienced).

Not having cars that power oversteer is boring and limiting. By your measure, no cars should have any power beyond what the tires can handle, in which case the Carrera GT would have less than 200hp. This viewpoint would almost totally ruin the entire enthusiast automotive community. Cars without driving aids are not "lethal", neither is the power itself, they are only as dangerous as the person behind the wheel. My daily driver has 550hp, and I frequently turn everything off when driving spiritedly. This is also true for my old BMW M3, my friends and their cars, and most anyone I know that has a modicum of driving experience. It is the viewpoint of an inexperienced driver that traction control is needed in a high horsepower car. As far as the game is concerned, I've never turned TCS on.

I am also someone who rides a lot. Grew up in dirt, transitioned into sport bikes and track days, and now mostly ride my motard, but to me there are very few things the disciplines of cars and bikes share. On bikes, being beyond traction is usually very dangerous, whereas cars can do it all day without issue (see drift events). That said, with my last GSX-R 750 I used to spin the rear tire during accel or when cornering below the limit, whenever I felt like it. The bike had the power to do so, and I had the talent to not high side it, but this is a far cry from me sliding my RX7, and the likelihood for my RX to suddenly throw me out of it is almost zero whereas the bike could grip up at any time and decide it doesn't want me on it.

Trying to correlate your knowledge of motorcycles with cars isn't always going to fit.

 

[Techlet]

Just tried the Ferrari FXXK stock with no in-game assists and it will kick its tail out at even 10% throttle on corner exit. Definitely not feeling this magical grip on racing tires where I can just mash the throttle and go.

 

[LSFDRX]

Just tried the Ferrari FXXK stock with no in-game assists and it will kick its tail out at even 10% throttle on corner exit. Definitely not feeling this magical grip on racing tires when I can just mash the throttle and go.

I did the One-Lap Magic with the FXXK not too long ago (post 1.13), and it is still a super wild car. But, as with any car, careful throttle control and thoughtful steering inputs make it a very fast and capable car. I love the way it bounces and jiggles on it's tires. Really feels like the car has weight and grip to it. But I definitely see what you're saying about the throttle, you have to be vewy, vewy caweful.

This is much different than the GR3 cars I've driven lately though. The R8 and Huracan are too grippy in the rear, too understeery on throttle, too loose off throttle, and are never balanced. Fortunately, the FXX is none of those things.

 

[PirovacBoy]

Been driving the VW Scirocco R quite a lot today around the Nordschleife.
Pure Stock on Default Settings, my God that Car is a joy to drive under these Conditions.
Unbelievable how much fun I had for hours.
I‘m slowly starting to appreciate the new Physics System, the Memories of the good ol’ days are slowly fading, and relearning and adapting my driving Style to the new Physics is an welcome addition.
I‘m really looking forward to @Scaff s‘ Opinion about the latest changes to the driving Experience.

 

[GhostChild]

Well, just got done with the Deep Forest and Catalunya CEs which I did today specifically because they use the R8 and Huracan Gr3 cars and.... ugh. They both still suck, but now even more and for opposite reasons. They are both worse than they were pre-patch. The CEs still only took at most 4 attempts to Gold with these pigs, but the cars were chores to drive, and almost anti-fun.

This stupid balance between insane on throttle grip, and ludicrous off throttle oversteer is just flat out wrong. The cars are never just content, they're always in some lame state of under or oversteer. At least before you could use the throttle to maintain the balance, but now with this crazy understeer the cars never settle into a corner. It's either push into understeer, let off and manage oversteer, or rest in some slow attempt at balance. Not to mention that the R8 is still insane on the brakes with 0 brake balance, if you move bias forward it helps, but regardless anything in the track that allows the rear to get light all of a sudden becomes an exercise in snap-over and snap-back as the fast steering rack doesn't leave a lot of room for large corrections. There are a couple spots on Deep Forest that the R8 is simply never solid on through sector 2.

I miss balancing the cars with throttle, not see-sawing between over and understeer. The fronts now never seem to really bite the tarmac, the rears grip too much on throttle, and not enough on decel. The balance of these things is ruined. I hope the RCZ isn't so broken, but I have yet to try it out.

I'm still really enjoying most of what the patch did, but it's all for the road cars. Now if we could make the GT3 machines into something that exemplifies a true racing car, it would be much appreciated.

This also not a rant about "they're not like real life", it's a rant about how these cars suck to drive and aren't fun anymore even though they are "faster".

I agree. For me even the road cars are boring now. Also comfort soft tires now feel like sports hard. The only fun I'm having now is with old cars that usually comes with comfort mediums and have more wild reactions at the limit.

I think the solution to the ice skating GR.3 cars like R8 and M6 GT3 would have been something in between the old and new physics. Also not having consenquences driving over the curbs and reducing the feel of weight of the car, it makes the game very easy at some points but annoying in other ocasions with the massive understeer.

 

[dabz343]

my belief is that a car never should be able to power oversteer out of corners.

Hey now, you have posted some credible thoughts in the past, but this statement is just not accurate. Exiting a corner is not just about managing the throttle/steering angle...being sublime on entry and getting the entire chassis/platform to settle into the transient stage is equally important -- and imperative to how your car behaves on exit...and when you are leaning and slipping, anything can happen.