Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[LeGeNd-1]

Did my usual assortment of tests with a variety of cars in licenses, missions and circuit experience. I'm happy to say road cars are mostly fixed in V1.25. The main improvement is rear tyre traction is finally up to realistic levels. In the C7 ZR1 TT @ Watkins I had to resort to using CSA Strong before, but after the update it is manageable with CSA Off, and I smashed my previous time by 0.5 sec. Honestly most road cars now feel very close to AC. Not perfect, but as close as I expect PD to get. Even MR and RR cars, which has always been messed up to drive with excessive lift off oversteer since GT6, is now mostly fixed. In fact I feel the RR Porsches are a bit too stable now with slightly too much rear grip. But I definitely prefer this over the initial launch physics where even a stock MX5 will try to kill you in every corner.

A couple more things fixed:

• High speed bottoming out that causes sudden oversteer is gone (confirmed with Super Formula at Fuji T3 and Peugeot 908 at Porsche Curves)
• Wet weather driving is a LOT better (try the license test with 180SX @ Spa and M3 E30 @ RBR)
• Weight transfer of rear heavy car toned down (S10 license 917K is a lot more manageable at Eau Rouge and Blanchimont when lifting off)

A few problems still remain however:

• Some Gr.3 MR cars are still problematic (Ford GT LM and R8 Evo still has too much lift off oversteer, others like Huracan and 458 are a lot better though)
• High speed understeer in downforce cars is less than before, but still excessive (can be fixed with setup, but they NEED to fix the default setup for BOP races)
• Downforce still too OP (mainly in Gr.2, Gr.1 and Formula cars). Haven't tested dirty air in a race yet, but I imagine it's still bad also.
• Brakes still too "grabby" at the end of the braking phase
• Gr.1 battery deployment still runs out too quickly (even the 919 runs out completely after one lap now)
• FFB still as bad as ever, still no rumble running over kerbs

Also not a fan of them reverting the tyre wear graphic to pre V1.20. It was clear in V1.20, all compounds fell off the cliff at around 10% thread remaining. Now you're back to GTS style where softs are good until <50%, meds <60% and hards <80%. Also in V1.20 MR cars wear more evenly and are quite usable in high wear races. Haven't tested in V1.25 but if it's been reverted back that's no good.

Finally controversial opinion but I like the extremely sensitive damage in V1.20. I always said that if PD can't make a good penalty system the next best thing is to discourage any form of contact, irrespective of who's at fault, with a punishing damage model. Sure you still get numpties but the standard of racing has cleaned up considerably in the last 2 months. Now we are back to square one.

Hope they can keep working on the remaining physics niggles but man, this game really should've been delayed by 6-12 months. I'm afraid lots of people have already left the series for good and no matter how good GT7 becomes in the future, the goodwill of the community is gone.

 

[bigmull]

One thing i noticed is that in the rain RH now lose grip a lot earlier if there is some tyre wear than preupdate,its not really a huge issue but it is there.

 

[05XR8]

I noticed the IW last way longer once the track is drying. Either that or me finding water during the remaining two laps at La Sarthe, prolonged the tyre wear.

 

[ScottPuss20]

The fact that we're even comparing this game to Assetto Corsa is fantastic, because I had deep fears for the physics before launch.

 

[Beezer215]

The fact that we're even comparing this game to Assetto Corsa is fantastic, because I had deep fears for the physics before launch.

I'm not sure there really is much of a comparison. It's not close to Assetto Corsa. There simply just isn't enough physics calculations going on for it to be. Granted I use AC With CSP and Content Manager and SOL and such on PC which does upgrade the physics and FFB a bit but I just turned on AC on my PS4 Pro back a few months when GT7 came out to do a comparison and through a DD2, GT7 simply isn't there.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I'm not sure there really is much of a comparison. It's not close to Assetto Corsa. There simply just isn't enough physics calculations going on for it to be. Granted I use AC With CSP and Content Manager and SOL and such on PC which does upgrade the physics and FFB a bit but I just turned on AC on my PS4 Pro back a few months when GT7 came out to do a comparison and through a DD2, GT7 simply isn't there.

I'm on a controller so I don't notice the intricacies as much as you would on a wheel. From my experience, they're very close in terms of overall feel.

 

[Yard_Sale]

I'm not sure there really is much of a comparison. It's not close to Assetto Corsa. There simply just isn't enough physics calculations going on for it to be. Granted I use AC With CSP and Content Manager and SOL and such on PC which does upgrade the physics and FFB a bit but I just turned on AC on my PS4 Pro back a few months when GT7 came out to do a comparison and through a DD2, GT7 simply isn't there.

I did an hour-long session of ACC yesterday and the dove immediately into GT7 for an hour. The first thing I noticed is how less nuanced GT7’s FFB was. And by less nuanced, I would say that the FFB didn’t have the overall strength discrepancies between heavy-g corners, snap oversteer, ect. that ACC has.

But as soon as I relaxed my grip on the wheel, I could feel the nuance in GT7’s FFB, but it was less defined in terms of strength. The details are there, they’re just not as “in your face” as the likes of ACC. A realistic number I would put to GT7’s ffb; is that it’s probably 65% as good as ACC. IMHO, that’s actually pretty damn good for PD to be even that close right now. Hopefully it’ll keep getting better

 

[Beezer215]

I did an hour-long session of ACC yesterday and the dove immediately into GT7 for an hour. The first thing I noticed is how less nuanced GT7’s FFB was. And by less nuanced, I would say that the FFB didn’t have the overall strength discrepancies between heavy-g corners, snap oversteer, ect. that ACC has.

But as soon as I relaxed my grip on the wheel, I could feel the nuance in GT7’s FFB, but it was less defined in terms of strength. The details are there, they’re just not as “in your face” as the likes of ACC. A realistic number I would put to GT7’s ffb; is that it’s probably 65% as good as ACC. IMHO, that’s actually pretty damn good for PD to be even that close right now. Hopefully it’ll keep getting better

I can't speak for ACC on console (I've heard things). I thought it was just AC that was mentioned. ACC is even better than AC on PC. regarding physics and FFB.
I mean, as the lineage of Gran Turismos go, sure 7 is the best so far that they've done in this department. I'd hope so.
However they're not really using spring compression in the FFB signal. There's a complete feeling of weight transfer that's missing in the FFB and it's replaced with a canned effect of just "weight on the wheel" as you turn. Hell, the rumble strips don't even come through the wheel most of the time. Other things like what happens when you brake and turn the wheel are very odd too. The more you brake, the straighter the car goes with the wheel turned. It's almost a linear graph of steering being taken away as to how hard you push the brake pedal down. And this is with ABS turned on. Real cars don't do that. Take ACC and hit the brakes and turn the car. Or AC. The ABS pumps and the car is able to turn, which you can even feel in AC(C).
I hope GT7 gets better too. I didn't pay money for it to be a blood fart.

 

[GTboyz]

After spending some more time, I take back my words, the physics are better now. Most stock cars that I tested yesterday feels great to drive.

It was my tuning that screwed the cars up. Guess I need to learn to properly tune a car

 

[Scaff]

IMHO, that’s actually pretty damn good for PD to be even that close right now.

Given how long PD has been at this, it's really not.

 

[Monkey Man]

Given how long PD has been at this, it's really not.

IMHO that's a "false argument" brother.

It's not like PD has aimed for the level of realism for the past 25 years that Kunos does. Different product. Slightly-different market.

 

[FrankieStail]

How do we know that pd haven’t been aiming for realism all this time though.
I’ve heard that said so many times but never actually heard it from the horses mouth.

We do know pd claim racing’s for everyone 8 to 80, driving a real car isn’t hard and they claim to be the real driving simulator.

Perhaps they’re just not as good at the physics lark as they/some think they are, especially as they’ve been at it for so long compared to the likes of kunos?

 

[Scaff]

IMHO that's a "false argument" brother.

It's not like PD has aimed for the level of realism for the past 25 years that Kunos does. Different product. Slightly-different market.

Not really, as you assume it's just Kunos they are behind. At the time, Driveclub had more accurate FFB than GTS did, and that was firmly an arcade title!

That aside, are you seriously trying to use this as an excuse for PD being behind an 8-year-old title in this regard?

 

[Monkey Man]

I'm not making excuses for anyone mate.

Just saying (quite-clearly I thought) that your comparison was a false equivalency 'cause PD and Kunos were aiming at different targets.

Also, you're wrong about my assumptions about other titles; I made none. Why would I? Yard_Sale was comparing it specifically to ACC's FFB.

Here's the phrase you quoted and commented on in full context. Seems pretty-clear to me:

A realistic number I would put to GT7’s ffb; is that it’s probably 65% as good as ACC. IMHO, that’s actually pretty damn good for PD to be even that close right now. Hopefully it’ll keep getting better

 

[NIKOLAUNCH]

Not really, as you assume it's just Kunos they are behind. At the time, Driveclub had more accurate FFB than GTS did, and that was firmly an arcade title!

That aside, are you seriously trying to use this as an excuse for PD being behind an 8-year-old title in this regard?

Are you kidding? Driveclub didn't have FFB, only weak effects. Its reason why i finished game with pad.

 

[Scaff]

Are you kidding? Driveclub didn't have FFB, only weak effects. Its reason why i finished game with pad.

Guess you didn't wait for the updates then, as no I'm not joking.

For one thing Driveclub actually modelled the reduction in self aligning torque during the onset on understeer, something GT as a series still struggles with.

I'm not making excuses for anyone mate.

Just saying (quite-clearly I thought) that your comparison was a false equivalency 'cause PD and Kunos were aiming at different targets.

Also, you're wrong about my assumptions about other titles; I made none. Why would I? Yard_Sale was comparing it specifically to ACC's FFB.

Here's the phrase you quoted and commented on in full context. Seems pretty-clear to me:

And the wider discussion went into both AC and ACC, nor does that then limit the scope of the discussion.

Besides you're the one who complained that comparisons to ACC were unfair to GT7!

 

[Monkey Man]

... nor does that then limit the scope of the discussion.

Agreed mate; it was one specific game-to-game FFB comparison 'though. That was what you quoted and commented on.

No matter; I've been clear as to the specifics of what I referred to.

Anyhow, as I've said to you before, I love listening to your videos so congrats and kudos to you brother. I do very-much respect your opinions.

 

[Firestone]

I can't speak for ACC on console (I've heard things). I thought it was just AC that was mentioned. ACC is even better than AC on PC. regarding physics and FFB.
I mean, as the lineage of Gran Turismos go, sure 7 is the best so far that they've done in this department. I'd hope so.
However they're not really using spring compression in the FFB signal. There's a complete feeling of weight transfer that's missing in the FFB and it's replaced with a canned effect of just "weight on the wheel" as you turn. Hell, the rumble strips don't even come through the wheel most of the time. Other things like what happens when you brake and turn the wheel are very odd too. The more you brake, the straighter the car goes with the wheel turned. It's almost a linear graph of steering being taken away as to how hard you push the brake pedal down. And this is with ABS turned on. Real cars don't do that. Take ACC and hit the brakes and turn the car. Or AC. The ABS pumps and the car is able to turn, which you can even feel in AC(C).
I hope GT7 gets better too. I didn't pay money for it to be a blood fart.

AC over exaggerates the ruble strip and vibration in general with FFB. Getting on the accelerator and breaking traction under acceleration does not violently shake your wheel irl. It's a more docile feeling. Same with going over rumble strips. You hardly feel anything thing in the wheel. When the front wheel start breaking static friction, the sensation in the wheel is extremely light (this happens in ACC), esp in power steering cases I believe. When I track, I can barely feel anything in the wheel and the sensation is all in the forces around me. I'm not trying to toot GT in this, but the wheel sensations are more of what you would feel at the wheel.

However they're not really using spring compression in the FFB signal. There's a complete feeling of weight transfer that's missing in the FFB and it's replaced with a canned effect of just "weight on the wheel" as you turn.

I really don't no about this. Weight transfer has always been a strong suit with GT. All the wheel is doing is transferring torque through the motor. I can feel the suspension loads based on feedback from the wheel and they vary. For example, Streets of Willow has a high speed chicane that can unsettle the car if you overspeed into it. When I go through it in GT and rl, the feedback to the wheel as related to the suspension loads and how the weight is unsettling the car is very similar. The EvoX suspension is fairly soft, so the unsettling is in the steering is what I can describe as wavy and wants to slap you back in high speed switch back. Don't know, feels very natural in GT how the FFB responds.

The more you brake, the straighter the car goes with the wheel turned. It's almost a linear graph of steering being taken away as to how hard you push the brake pedal down. And this is with ABS turned on. Real cars don't do that.

I don't know about this either. GT and ACC are very close in this regard. I just tested in ACC and depressing the brakes to threshold while trying to turn will cause the car to understeer wide. As you let off the brakes while cornering, you can use more available tire for turning. You can brake and turn the same way in GT though GT is a bit more aggressive with understeer while under full force of the brakes. I haven't checked the car setups between game. I was using the 15 Huracane between the games. But the same concepts are happening on the brakes between the games

 

[Yard_Sale]

Found this video on YouTube.com





So I guess GT7’s physics aren’t that far off real life? 😳

 

[Scaff]

AC over exaggerates the ruble strip and vibration in general with FFB. Getting on the accelerator and breaking traction under acceleration does not violently shake your wheel irl. It's a more docile feeling. Same with going over rumble strips. You hardly feel anything thing in the wheel.

Then turn off what Kunos are quite clear are canned effects in AC!

That way it's driven just by the physics, oh and I could introduce you to some real world rumble strips that are far from docile in feel.

When the front wheel start breaking static friction, the sensation in the wheel is extremely light (this happens in ACC), esp in power steering cases I believe. When I track, I can barely feel anything in the wheel and the sensation is all in the forces around me. I'm not trying to toot GT in this, but the wheel sensations are more of what you would feel at the wheel.

Quite the opposite, power steering masks the drop off of self-aligning torque, hell it masks most steering feedback, particularly electric-assisted systems. Try tracking a race-spec car, with rose-jointed suspension, slicks, and zero power-assisted steering.

BTW, this is what the Gough-plot for self-aligning torque drop-off looks like, and I've encountered it in numerous road cars. Steering weight (SAT) is 20% of its max at peak cornering grip (6 degrees of slip) in this example. It's a rapid and sudden drop-off in steering weight, and either your PAS is killing the feel of it (unlikely it would be able to remove all of it) or you're backing off before you get to it, anything else and you're working with different physics to the rest of the world.

I really don't no about this. Weight transfer has always been a strong suit with GT.

No, it really hasn't, which is why lift-off oversteer and, RR cars not having a default on-throttle balance of understeer, is something the series has issues with.

ll the wheel is doing is transferring torque through the motor. I can feel the suspension loads based on feedback from the wheel and they vary. For example, Streets of Willow has a high speed chicane that can unsettle the car if you overspeed into it. When I go through it in GT and rl, the feedback to the wheel as related to the suspension loads and how the weight is unsettling the car is very similar. The EvoX suspension is fairly soft, so the unsettling is in the steering is what I can describe as wavy and wants to slap you back in high speed switch back. Don't know, feels very natural in GT how the FFB responds.

They do vary in GT, it is however very simplistic.

I don't know about this either. GT and ACC are very close in this regard. I just tested in ACC and depressing the brakes to threshold while trying to turn will cause the car to understeer wide. As you let off the brakes while cornering, you can use more available tire for turning. You can brake and turn the same way in GT though GT is a bit more aggressive with understeer while under full force of the brakes. I haven't checked the car setups between game. I was using the 15 Huracane between the games. But the same concepts are happening on the brakes between the games

I have to disagree, the two are not close in that regard.

 

[NIKOLAUNCH]

Guess you didn't wait for the updates then, as no I'm not joking.

For one thing Driveclub actually modelled the reduction in self aligning torque during the onset on understeer, something GT as a series still struggles with.

Apparently I really missed it, it's impressive if it really is. I clearly remember that on the T300 the steering was very light even at maximum feedback and there were not even simple curb effects.

 

[Scaff]

Apparently I really missed it, it's impressive if it really is. I clearly remember that on the T300 the steering was very light even at maximum feedback and there were not even simple curb effects.

Driveclub FFB was poor at launch, improved considerably via updates, and then got murdered again after Sony abandoned it via a TM wheel update (which could have been fixed of Sony has not closed the studio).

 

[Greasyfatman]

I don’t know what changed. But I think my engine swapped bug has been drinking. It was un drivable at hypercar event.

Took changes in diff ride height and camber and damping to get all sobered up but now it’s better then it was.

 

[CinnamonOD]

Driveclub FFB was poor at launch, improved considerably via updates, and then got murdered again after Sony abandoned it via a TM wheel update (which could have been fixed of Sony has not closed the studio).

The T300 does not have the best feedback on GT7 for some reason, I recall it working just fine in every other title, just not GTSport and 7

Ironically I found GT7 to feel better on the T150 and now on the Fanatec DD Pro it’s just so much better than anything I’ve had the chance to get my hands on

 

[CodeRedR51]

Try tracking a race-spec car, with rose-jointed suspension, slicks, and zero power-assisted steering.

Most modern day racecars have power steering.

 

[NIKOLAUNCH]

The T300 does not have the best feedback on GT7 for some reason, I recall it working just fine in every other title, just not GTSport and 7

Ironically I found GT7 to feel better on the T150 and now on the Fanatec DD Pro it’s just so much better than anything I’ve had the chance to get my hands on

My last steering wheel is T150, and now T300 and I think that T300 is superior in everything.

 

[CinnamonOD]

My last steering wheel is T150, and now T300 and I think that T300 is superior in everything.

No doubt the T150 is worse than the T300, what I said is that for me the first felt better than the latter, despite its shortcomings

 

[ScottPuss20]

No, it really hasn't, which is why lift-off oversteer and, RR cars not having a default on-throttle balance of understeer, is something the series has issues with.

This issue has been resolved for the most part in recent times. Some cars still suffer but it's nowhere near as bad as it was.

 

[Firestone]

That way it's driven just by the physics, oh and I could introduce you to some real world rumble strips that are far from docile in feel.

This will vary from track to track depending on how aggressive the strip is. I sure the vibration of what you feel on the wheel and in the car is superimposed. I've only ever driven over light strips and and the sensation I've felt in the wheel is very minute.

Quite the opposite, power steering masks the drop off of self-aligning torque, hell it masks most steering feedback, particularly electric-assisted systems. Try tracking a race-spec car, with rose-jointed suspension, slicks, and zero power-assisted steering.

BTW, this is what the Gough-plot for self-aligning torque drop-off looks like, and I've encountered it in numerous road cars. Steering weight (SAT) is 20% of its max at peak cornering grip (6 degrees of slip) in this example. It's a rapid and sudden drop-off in steering weight, and either your PAS is killing the feel of it (unlikely it would be able to remove all of it) or you're backing off before you get to it, anything else and you're working with different physics to the rest of the world.

As someone else has said, most race cars have power steering. And to your point, that is exactly what I described with the break in static friction (or slip) of the tires. The amount of steering load as it relates to cornering force and slip is not linear in GT and steering load drops off rapidly according to the graph. This is evident in ACC and GT similarly, so I don't know what the disconnect is here. I've had all season on my car before and teeter on edge plenty of times. I know what it feels like, albeit, it is slightly different with awd since there is slightly heavier load on edge from the driven front wheels.

No, it really hasn't, which is why lift-off oversteer and, RR cars not having a default on-throttle balance of understeer, is something the series has issues with.

Lift off oversteer is present for FWD cars and on-throttle understeer is there with RR. Was probably less pronounced in older series, with older models of the physics engine, but weight transfer as it related to suspension movement was always prevalent in GT series.

They do vary in GT, it is however very simplistic.

Compared to?

I have to disagree, the two are not close in that regard.

I spend an hour and a half jumping between games last night messing with brake balances, traction controls and levels of ABS with equivalent race cars on the Barcelona GP.

Turn 1, the same braking points apply between the 200 and 100m board. You guide yourself into the turn in 2 gear, get slightly on throttle to prep for T2, short shift into 3rd gear otherwise 2nd gear would unsettle the car whipping out the rear. Go full throttle in 3rd approaching T3 and letting of for partial throttle to get the car around until mid point. Get on throttle at mid point, you start to understeer wide, short shift to 4th to mitigate the understeer under full throttle to get around the rest of the corner.

ACC and GT are virtually similar here.

Hard on the brakes at the T4 bridge while slightly trailing in and lifting off slightly to get rotation, feather in 2nd around the corner, short shift to 3rd to stabilize the car under full throttle. Conditions where you try to gun it in 2nd will unstablize the car.

ACC and GT are virtually similar here.

I can go on for the rest of the track since I've probably driven 500 laps of it.
I think what is significant here is the brake load and unloading vs the amount the car wants to turn in while unloading. ACC and GT are not identical since there are more ABS setting to choose from in ACC, but the approach is very similar between games.

Going to brake balance, 50/50 will whip the rear end around if you turn and release aggressively. Edging the brake balance forward will stabilize turn in. Check this off for similarity here.
The games are similar in approach and skills can be transferred between games. The only limitations that I have was matching the FFB between games with the G27 in ACC unloading the motor to basically 0 torque in certain slip conditions which made for a weird experience.

 

[Scaff]

Most modern day racecars have power steering.

They really don't.

Modern GT4 and GT3 cars are still not most modern-day race cars and the set-up of PAS in a dedicated racecar is not the same as a road car (ditto traction control and ABS)

This will vary from track to track depending on how aggressive the strip is. I sure the vibration of what you feel on the wheel and in the car is superimposed. I've only ever driven over light strips and and the sensation I've felt in the wheel is very minute.

If you have the enhanced effects switched on it is, Kunos have always been clear about that, switch it off and it's only dirven by the physics engine.

As someone else has said, most race cars have power steering.

That doesn't make it true.

And to your point, that is exactly what I described with the break in static friction (or slip) of the tires. The amount of steering load as it relates to cornering force and slip is not linear in GT and steering load drops off rapidly according to the graph. This is evident in ACC and GT similarly, so I don't know what the disconnect is here. I've had all season on my car before and teeter on edge plenty of times. I know what it feels like, albeit, it is slightly different with awd since there is slightly heavier load on edge from the driven front wheels.

You might want to go back and re-word your post then...

Lift off oversteer is present for FWD cars and on-throttle understeer is there with RR. Was probably less pronounced in older series, with older models of the physics engine, but weight transfer as it related to suspension movement was always prevalent in GT series.

Present and wrong, if you honestly think that it's accurately represented in GT then I honestly don't know what to say.

Compared to?

Reality.

I spend an hour and a half jumping between games last night messing with brake balances, traction controls and levels of ABS with equivalent race cars on the Barcelona GP.

Turn 1, the same braking points apply between the 200 and 100m board. You guide yourself into the turn in 2 gear, get slightly on throttle to prep for T2, short shift into 3rd gear otherwise 2nd gear would unsettle the car whipping out the rear. Go full throttle in 3rd approaching T3 and letting of for partial throttle to get the car around until mid point. Get on throttle at mid point, you start to understeer wide, short shift to 4th to mitigate the understeer under full throttle to get around the rest of the corner.

ACC and GT are virtually similar here.

Hard on the brakes at the T4 bridge while slightly trailing in and lifting off slightly to get rotation, feather in 2nd around the corner, short shift to 3rd to stabilize the car under full throttle. Conditions where you try to gun it in 2nd will unstablize the car.

ACC and GT are virtually similar here.

I can go on for the rest of the track since I've probably driven 500 laps of it.
I think what is significant here is the brake load and unloading vs the amount the car wants to turn in while unloading. ACC and GT are not identical since there are more ABS setting to choose from in ACC, but the approach is very similar between games.

Going to brake balance, 50/50 will whip the rear end around if you turn and release aggressively. Edging the brake balance forward will stabilize turn in. Check this off for similarity here.
The games are similar in approach and skills can be transferred between games. The only limitations that I have was matching the FFB between games with the G27 in ACC unloading the motor to basically 0 torque in certain slip conditions which made for a weird experience.

Again my milage is very, very different in that regard, it may be down to running ACC on PC, but GT isn't similar in that regard at all, even more so with regard to the effect brake balance has between the two and the resulting liberties you can take in GT.