Gran Turismo 7 Physics

Do you want more detailed and realistic physics on the next GT

  • Total voters
    203
  • Poll closed .
The physics programmers are doing a bang on job. Fixed issues, increased realism with updates. The gameplay programmers? Do they actually think this is good? Or are they simply understaffed for 7? But even then, creating events wouldn’t take much.

They don’t even have to do it themselves if they don’t want to, just give us a way to save events (well, we kind of can) and create championships, and increase payouts.

I don’t think Kaz really cares about the single player. Otherwise he would have it improved. I think he just cares about the physics.

Because, how can he be satisfied with it? Does he think, “Eh, it’s not great but they can go online”? The AI can be quick, that’s the thing. It’s not unreasonable, it doesn’t need reworking - Maggiore AI for every event on Hard, or a new difficulty option, and the game will be much more enjoyable. There will be actual racing.

Also the FFB issue is, just… they must not have people testing it, because you’d notice it right away. You would think they’d run QA for it after fixing/improving it a few patches back. Though I hear it still wasn’t back to how it was at launch.
 
I don't know what they changed, but something definitely did. A look at the TT thread and it's obvious, but not only are people knocking multiple tenths (and over a second in some cases) of their TT time, I was about to knock over .250" off my Daily C time.
 
I've only driven the alfa at bathurst but the changes have completely ruined the experience. At the cutting, dipper and the chase I am holding my breath, thr brake balance is way, way too much to the rear and she wants to swap ends. Hate it.
 
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Yard_Sale
Just did an hour session with our car club on GTS. Its a crying shame how much better the FFB is in GTS compared to GT7. It feels like ACC-light. So much shaper. Much stronger. Less numb. You can actually feel what all 4 wheels are doing. On Bathurst, as you're taking that slight left at the top of the mountain headed into Mcphillamy Park, there's a kerb on the right hand side that you're going to brush up against if you're driving at the limit. When my rear wheels slide int the kerb, I feel it definitively in my wheel via GTS. In GT7, its practically nothing.

I understand that there's a lot that was not just simply cut and paste from GTS to GT7. But if anything, you would expect the FFB to be better, by extension of the physics being more nuanced. I'm honestly perplexed what gives when it comes to GT7's FFB
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IMO it's a matter of time. Wait long enough it might get updated to be more "serviceable". Otherwise PD expects you to only use the equipment they want you to. Usually high end stuff as was the case in some past gran turismos where in order to get the most out of the vaccum engines you had to have some hi-fi setup

Beezer215
Suspension geometry is something that just exists. You don't get to change it to whatever you want. So this means it was a farce before or a farce now? They aren't working with real data? Kind of a red flag this far into GT7's existence. Clearly there are issues with their physics if this far down the line they have to start redrawing geometries.
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IIRC I was able to correctly guess that differential physics on RWD cars needed a fix, long before people knew what was up. And a few updates later, they did fix this. Going forward perhaps they're thinking on a more long-term plan. I'd wager that they have an ideal GT7 physics prototype already but had to re-write or fork a significant chunk of the code so that they could implement it on both PS5 and the erm older console. This would mean they already know how the cars will handle towards the end of the game's support. They're merely updating the codebase section by section to refine it, optimizing the game engine for performance and stability first, hence why some cars appear to handle "right" and others are a wreck. The current build does not bother them in the slightest.
 
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FerrariF40
FFB is plain dead now
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What equipment are you using? I'm on a DD Pro now and whilst it's still not great, I'd say it communicates enough that I know what the car is doing. It's quite dull and you don't get the feeling of being on the tyres unlike some other sims.

It's still in need of improvement for sure, it's not a patch on even ACC which isn't to everyone's taste either. AMS2 is light years ahead.

The actual handling and physics does seem to be going in a good direction though.
 
wheelhp
IIRC I was able to correctly guess that differential physics on RWD cars needed a fix, long before people knew what was up. And a few updates later, they did fix this. Going forward perhaps they're thinking on a more long-term plan. I'd wager that they have an ideal GT7 physics prototype already but had to re-write or fork a significant chunk of the code so that they could implement it on both PS5 and the erm older console. This would mean they already know how the cars will handle towards the end of the game's support. They're merely updating the codebase section by section to refine it, optimizing the game engine for performance and stability first, hence why some cars handle right and others are a wreck. The current build does not bother them in the slightest.

Edit: damn double posted. Sorry mods! LOL
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I think you're going a little far off of what I was eluding too.
This is suspension geometry:
AC suspension image.jpg

This is suspension geometry in Assetto Corsa. You shouldn't have to change this. These are metal parts that exist in the manor they do. I work on mods for AC, rF2 and AMS2. The point being is that you get this as close to the cars geometry as you can. Now I understand if it's VGT cars and you can make up whatever you want but when they say:
1. Physics Simulation Model
　- The suspension geometry for each car has been adjusted.
For each car? Each and every car? I mean I don't find Gran Turismo to be very much a simulation anyways but for them to just come out and say they did this, I find that odd. Mind you I'm all for them making this feel better than it is now. In anyway possible.
 
They could just be redoing the physics calculations for individual parts of the suspension rather than actually rearranging the suspension geometry?
 
Beezer215
I think you're going a little far off of what I was eluding too.
This is suspension geometry:
View attachment 1202615
This is suspension geometry in Assetto Corsa. You shouldn't have to change this. These are metal parts that exist in the manor they do. I work on mods for AC, rF2 and AMS2. The point being is that you get this as close to the cars geometry as you can. Now I understand if it's VGT cars and you can make up whatever you want but when they say:
1. Physics Simulation Model
　- The suspension geometry for each car has been adjusted.
For each car? Each and every car? I mean I don't find Gran Turismo to be very much a simulation anyways but for them to just come out and say they did this, I find that odd. Mind you I'm all for them making this feel better than it is now. In anyway possible.
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I have AC on computer. Have done some private vehicle modding myself in the .acd .lut and .ini files myself. I agree in that they shouldn't have to change suspension geometry but we also don't know how they calculate it nor if they even use a dev visualizer for geometry. But from the way I've noticed... PD used to borrow physics from other car models in their games, for example in GT3 and GT4 from the PS2 era of gaming. Who's to say they're largely working any different today? Copy+paste, then change if they have the time to fix obvious inconsistencies. You'd find in those older gran turismo games that they're using outdated specs on some of the cars too and don't seem to care that some cars drive unrealistically, their philosophy when it comes to the differences and accuracy in car physics can leave one wanting. To this day I question why IIRC in GT6 all cars seem to have +.60 toe in from the factory. That's absolutely not true in the real world.
 
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wheelhp
I have AC on computer. Have done some private vehicle modding myself in the .acd .lut and .ini files myself. I agree in that they shouldn't have to change suspension geometry but we also don't know how they calculate it nor if they even use a dev visualizer for geometry. But from the way I've noticed... PD used to borrow physics from other car models in their games, for example in GT3 and GT4 from the PS2 era of gaming. Who's to say they're largely working any different today? Copy+paste, then change if they have the time to fix obvious inconsistencies. You'd find in those older gran turismo games that they're using outdated specs on some of the cars too and don't seem to care that some cars drive unrealistically, their philosophy when it comes to the differences and accuracy in car physics can leave one wanting.
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Agree. And in my opinion, I think that the physics engine in GT7 or the way it's utilized is a bit primitive. It seems as though the cars are floating on balloons and not tires. The cars don't have that weight to them that you find in sims. Plus one thing that gets me is that the FFB model is derived mostly from the tires and not the suspension. There's a lack of weight transfer coming through the wheel that leaves it lifeless.
I'm with you though, I think they're still copying and pasting physics.
 
Beezer215
Agree. And in my opinion, I think that the physics engine in GT7 or the way it's utilized is a bit primitive. It seems as though the cars are floating on balloons and not tires. The cars don't have that weight to them that you find in sims. Plus one thing that gets me is that the FFB model is derived mostly from the tires and not the suspension. There's a lack of weight transfer coming through the wheel that leaves it lifeless.
I'm with you though, I think they're still copying and pasting physics.
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This is exactly what I feel but you’ve worded it perfectly. It’s almost like ACC is easier to drive because it’s more intuitive but when you try to push the car to its limits it’s easy to lose the rear on the weight transfer alone, whereas in GT7 it’s easier to drive the car at its limit as soon as you understand the “rules” of the game, even if they don’t make that much sense.
 
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Beezer215
Agree. And in my opinion, I think that the physics engine in GT7 or the way it's utilized is a bit primitive. It seems as though the cars are floating on balloons and not tires. The cars don't have that weight to them that you find in sims. Plus one thing that gets me is that the FFB model is derived mostly from the tires and not the suspension. There's a lack of weight transfer coming through the wheel that leaves it lifeless.
I'm with you though, I think they're still copying and pasting physics.
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To add to this, I also definitely think with GT Sport and GT7 they've changed their priority list to optimizing game performance first; meaning the complexity of the physics model/engine is somewhat caged from inception and then perhaps some aspects of the model are exaggerated to fit certain cars that exhibit more unique handling characteristics. But it's generally a good thing they're focusing on optimizing performance first, it's like their standout feature among all the other console racing titles, Gran Turismo Sport and 7 both probably have the most consistent framerate a racing title can have on a playstation console IMO. They've learned from the PS3 launch days in that regard. I always find the PD tyre model to be the main thing lacking for me unfortunately, between their games. In Gran Turismo 4 you could get something like x1.25 tyre friction for simply riding the tyre on a rumble strip, regardless of other vehicle dynamics supposedly at play. naturally all the speedruns exhausted this feature.
 
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wheelhp
To add to this, I also definitely think with GT Sport and GT7 they've changed their priority list to optimizing game performance first; meaning the complexity of the physics model/engine is somewhat caged from inception and then perhaps some aspects of the model are exaggerated to fit certain cars that exhibit more unique handling characteristics. But it's generally a good thing they're focusing on optimizing performance first, it's like their standout feature among all the other console racing titles, Gran Turismo Sport and 7 both probably have the most consistent framerate a racing title can have on a playstation console IMO. They've learned from the PS3 launch days in that regard. I always find the PD tyre model to be the main thing lacking for me unfortunately, between their games. In Gran Turismo 4 you could get something like x1.25 tyre friction for simply riding the tyre on a rumble strip, regardless of other vehicle dynamics supposedly at play. naturally all the speedruns exhausted this feature.
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It's felt to me that in the 'modern era' of realistic racing games/sims, where others have sought to more fully replicate every part of the car's physical movements and interaction with the road, PD look at it more from the point of view of giving the 'feeling' of realism and building a physics model that upholds their vision of that rather than 'pure' physics as such. This can certainly still be effective and I do think they've been trying to break beyond that as the market competition has moved on.

The difference between Sport and 7 is that decision to go towards what others are doing, which is why I do see that there are some clever and complex things going in the background of GT7's physics, and some cars respond well to being treated as they would in other sims when it comes to setup etc. They are still far behind on quite a few things the sim audience value, like the tyre model, force feedback etc, but they have made progress in other areas for sure and GT7 is for me still quite enjoyable as a driving experience despite it's flaws. If they can be worked on there's something quite strong on offer.
 
danardif1
It's felt to me that in the 'modern era' of realistic racing games/sims, where others have sought to more fully replicate every part of the car's physical movements and interaction with the road, PD look at it more from the point of view of giving the 'feeling' of realism and building a physics model that upholds their vision of that rather than 'pure' physics as such. This can certainly still be effective and I do think they've been trying to break beyond that as the market competition has moved on.

The difference between Sport and 7 is that decision to go towards what others are doing, which is why I do see that there are some clever and complex things going in the background of GT7's physics, and some cars respond well to being treated as they would in other sims when it comes to setup etc. They are still far behind on quite a few things the sim audience value, like the tyre model, force feedback etc, but they have made progress in other areas for sure and GT7 is for me still quite enjoyable as a driving experience despite it's flaws. If they can be worked on there's something quite strong on offer.
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Agreed. The feeling of everything is paramount to a GT game. PD also doesn't need to make the most realistic game in the world, it's still going to be the one people talk about on console, it's got the spectacle. Back when GT was both a simulation and an arcade racing game it would feel realistic to all, but today we have much higher expectations from being exposed to many high fidelity physics simulations on PC. It works for them to focus on the feeling more, considering that's their strengths, especially with the jazzy tunes. Suppose if you've been making games for decades you tend to want to follow the method that's worked and what your target audience is used to. When PD was making GT5 they bit off more than they could chew by targeting physics first, they tried to make as realistic a driving model on console, and by the end of support they did that, but it resulted in multiple release delays followed by a sour launch. Wasn't feasible for them to do it all.

Where Forza has moved into freeroam/sandbox arcade racer territory comfortably, GT still aims to give you the feeling of realism. GT7 will no doubt be a good game in time, they do have a plan it seems.
 
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R1600Turbo
Just spent the last week perfecting a tune on one car, and now I probably have to do it all over again. 🤣
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I was worried as well.I have only used the E Type on Le Mans post update.Initially the back end had become a bit loose and some understeer had appeared.I did a bit of tweaking of the LSD and got it sorted.I get the feeling that i am lapping faster now,not by much but its there.The Jag was always a bit of a sod in cornering 45 degree corners but now has become a lot better and faster.I really need to sort out the DB3s as it got majorly stuffed up with the previous update.Tyre wear is a lot better,not that it was much of an issue with the Jag,i was getting 4 laps with around 50% tyre wear showing,i recon that i can now get 7 laps on RH,i need to test it though.Tha main issue is the left hand rear wears faster than the other tyres at Le Mans.
 
Beezer215
Agree. And in my opinion, I think that the physics engine in GT7 or the way it's utilized is a bit primitive. It seems as though the cars are floating on balloons and not tires. The cars don't have that weight to them that you find in sims. Plus one thing that gets me is that the FFB model is derived mostly from the tires and not the suspension. There's a lack of weight transfer coming through the wheel that leaves it lifeless.
I'm with you though, I think they're still copying and pasting physics.
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I'm probably always going to use my Evo and FRS as an example with this. My stock suspension evo irl feels like a boat and very floaty when I go over bumps while cornering or when the stability gets upset. It's a 3400lb car, but the suspension geometry (stiffness and how it bounds and rebounds) matters in this case. I've tested the FFB in my wheel and weight transfer and compared it to my car with the same specs compared to the game with slaloms and it's fairly accurate. I've been very vocal about AC in the past regarding the weight transfer and how it is related to suspension movement and it doesn't quite feel like it is simulated correctly with the cars handling very flat. In comparison, ACC seems to get weight shift correct. But hey, maybe the Evo in GT is one of the better simulated car. The GT86 in AC doesn't feel correct also and feels much better in GT.
 
Had a long day so going to keep it short (road cars, G29):

  • easier to put power down (reason why everyone is faster on the TT)
  • must less oversteer
  • more understeer
  • tire screeching noise reduced, or was it harder to find the limit? Not sure.
  • FFB is more dead feeling

I need some more time to let it soak in. The Porsche GT3s feel less raw somehow. Turns 6-7 at Interlagos is totally nerfed for example... used to get a nice slide through there no matter what you drove and now its understeer city. I'm open to the suggestions that this is better, but I need more time to get used to it.
 
I’m finding suspension set ups on road cars really weird. I’m testing different suspension settings with the Integra (it’s FF so ruling out any RWD / diff related snap oversteer) and I’m finding that I can lean on the tyres through the corners and have loads more mechanical grip when using stock suspension. Weight transfer is stable and I can throw the car in to corners hard without losing the rear of the car.

The moment I add fully customisable suspension - regardless of using sport or race tyres) - I’m losing rear stability. Even if I replicate the exact settings of the stock suspension with the custom suspension set, there is a noticeable difference in rear stability, which suggests that there is something else going on when using the suspension upgrade. Starting from the stock suspension numbers as a baseline and gradually lowering/stiffening is making the car worse.

You’d expect lowering the car and stiffening the springs etc would improve handling but instead it’s just making the car unstable. This reminds me of a point raised a while ago where you actually get better performance with a taller ride height whilst also reducing PP, which is obviously advantageous for PP limited events.

Race cars feel pretty decent to me and so do a lot of stock road cars, but tuning and modding road cars seems very off at the moment. Either that or I am terrible at tuning.

Interested to hear some opinions on this
 
MarrGuitar
I’m finding suspension set ups on road cars really weird. I’m testing different suspension settings with the Integra (it’s FF so ruling out any RWD / diff related snap oversteer) and I’m finding that I can lean on the tyres through the corners and have loads more mechanical grip when using stock suspension. Weight transfer is stable and I can throw the car in to corners hard without losing the rear of the car.

The moment I add fully customisable suspension - regardless of using sport or race tyres) - I’m losing rear stability. Even if I replicate the exact settings of the stock suspension with the custom suspension set, there is a noticeable difference in rear stability, which suggests that there is something else going on when using the suspension upgrade. Starting from the stock suspension numbers as a baseline and gradually lowering/stiffening is making the car worse.

You’d expect lowering the car and stiffening the springs etc would improve handling but instead it’s just making the car unstable. This reminds me of a point raised a while ago where you actually get better performance with a taller ride height whilst also reducing PP, which is obviously advantageous for PP limited events.

Race cars feel pretty decent to me and so do a lot of stock road cars, but tuning and modding road cars seems very off at the moment. Either that or I am terrible at tuning.

Interested to hear some opinions on this
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I'm just spitballing but It's possible the way they've calculated suspension stiffness or geometry with custom suspension may be an issue here, it might be overstiff and/or they might have increased the wheel rate itself. I'd first try increasing rebound damper stiffness on both ends for a bit then try toe in on the rear, reduce rear springrate a touch, play with anti-roll bars and finally increase rear damper compression if all else fails.

Finally you can lock the front/rear differential settings right up as a temporary diagnostic measure. Lock rear for RWD

IRL lowering a car too much without correctly adjusting both suspension geometry and springrate results in weird handling characteristics. But I doubt they're trying to emulate that. In past GT titles you could slam the car with little consequences to vehicle dynamics
 
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Spent the last few hours flogging this last update; anywhere from Porsche 930's to Nissan R92PC's. So far my favorite physics update. Lot more nuance in the handling, and therefore more nuanced FFB. Not to mention, the cars are no longer doing anything goofy. Took my stock 930 around Brands; it handled exactly as I expected. I felt like Tiff Needel out there.



Biggest thing for me:
The Ferrari 458 GT3 in BOP trim isn't atrocious anymore. I can actually trail brake it into turns without the rear stepping out 😳
 
FerrariF40
How do you think that?
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With every physics update, the FFB has gotten incrementally better. The only reason I can surmise is that a lot of the FFB model is tied directly to the suspension simulation.

I did probably an hour worth of hotlapping on the ring with a variety of cars. Besides Gran Turismo still not modeling understeer correctly, the FFB was conveyed similarly to how other Sims felt. Not as nuanced as the likes of Assetto Corsa still, but it’s steps in the right direction
 

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