Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Yard_Sale]

Just did an hour session with our car club on GTS. Its a crying shame how much better the FFB is in GTS compared to GT7. It feels like ACC-light. So much shaper. Much stronger. Less numb. You can actually feel what all 4 wheels are doing. On Bathurst, as you're taking that slight left at the top of the mountain headed into Mcphillamy Park, there's a kerb on the right hand side that you're going to brush up against if you're driving at the limit. When my rear wheels slide int the kerb, I feel it definitively in my wheel via GTS. In GT7, its practically nothing.

I understand that there's a lot that was not just simply cut and paste from GTS to GT7. But if anything, you would expect the FFB to be better, by extension of the physics being more nuanced. I'm honestly perplexed what gives when it comes to GT7's FFB

 

[FerrariF40]

I agree, was doing Monza daily in GT Sport last week and i was surprised how good the FFB is compared to GT7

 

[Hobson]

Why do they have these super unsubstantial updates? To add insult to injury; they'll fix all of the other small bugs, but refuse to fix the controller steering input. It's frustrating to put it lightly, there's little enjoyment left with haphazard steering and no new tracks/cars worth a damm.

 

[Yard_Sale]

@Scaff

Granted, I don’t know a whole lot about this stuff, but I have a question/theory. I’ve been scratching my head trying to figure out why GTS FFB is better than GT7. I think it’s universally accepted that GT7’s physics are a step in the right direction compared to GTS. Taking the constants out of the equation (dynamic weather/atmospheric pressures, TOD, dynamic track conditions [so we’re told]).

Is it possible, that in order for the more complicated physics calculations to work on PS4, they had to sacrifice the FFB refresh rate? Perhaps to the point where it’s subpar compared to GTS?

From the limited research I’ve done, it seems that iRacing does this exact thing. With a physics refresh rate at ~360hz, but a FFB R/R of 60hz. It seems that ACC has Both a physics and FFB refresh rate of 400hz?

Can you speak more to this?



Liked the Dakar preliminary review btw. Definitely a game I’m interested in. I look forward to your complete review 👍🏼

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff

Granted, I don’t know a whole lot about this stuff, but I have a question/theory. I’ve been scratching my head trying to figure out why GTS FFB is better than GT7. I think it’s universally accepted that GT7’s physics are a step in the right direction compared to GTS. Taking the constants out of the equation (dynamic weather/atmospheric pressures, TOD, dynamic track conditions [so we’re told]).

Is it possible, that in order for the more complicated physics calculations to work on PS4, they had to sacrifice the FFB refresh rate? Perhaps to the point where it’s subpar compared to GTS?

From the limited research I’ve done, it seems that iRacing does this exact thing. With a physics refresh rate at ~360hz, but a FFB R/R of 60hz. It seems that ACC has Both a physics and FFB refresh rate of 400hz?

Can you speak more to this?



Liked the Dakar preliminary review btw. Definitely a game I’m interested in. I look forward to your complete review 👍🏼

It's quite possible, but given PD's traditional lack of transparency on this, I suspect we will never know.

Even if this was the case, I suspect its also down to changes in the use of canned effects in some areas (again can't 100% prove it - but strongly suspect that's the case), and it would also not explain the areas of the FFB that are just wrong, such as how the loss of self-aligning torque on understeer is absent in the majority of cases.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Gotcha. So, a week ago, I was messing around with my settings and came with some out of the box stuff. Notably with the interpolation filter:

Fanatec Gran Turismo DD Pro

Certain button combinations can switch the mode. I know of Triangle + Share with the GT wheel. I don't know if there are any others doing the same. So in theory there could be an issue with the wheel connector (as you mention the Rev lights) and a broken signal triggering the mode switch maybe...

www.gtplanet.net

I’ve modified some settings slightly, but going much higher than Fanatec’s recommended settings on INTERPOL seemed to bring some nuance to the surface. I’m not sure if it was an old SRG YouTube vid… or maybe it was boosted.. regardless, they said that interpolation filter creates packets of artificial data to fill in the “gaps ” from the FFB data conveyed to the base via the game. Maybe, that’s why going higher on that specific value worked. Highly subjective stuff mind you, but it might explain some things. Thanks for the reply

 

[mattikake]

Is it possible, that in order for the more complicated physics calculations to work on PS4, they had to sacrifice the FFB refresh rate? Perhaps to the point where it’s subpar compared to GTS?

No because they had more detailed ffb in patch 1.15. Then they unfixed it.

 

[snc]

No because they had more detailed ffb in patch 1.15. Then they unfixed it.

Because was terrible and all top split drivers hated it Btw dont understand this ffb talk to be honest, its okeish, for sure not acc level but its not main problem of gt7 physics. Extreme dirty air, exagerrated dowforce of gr1/superformula/formula cars, stupid double shiftings - does are real problems.

 

[Yard_Sale]

No because they had more detailed ffb in patch 1.15. Then they unfixed it.

The definitive acid test would be; to find someone who had a DD1, and the ability to crank up the torque very high to compensate for the FFB strength nerf of 1.15, and hear what they had to say.


I think 1.15 FFB impressed us so much because GT7’s FFB was 2 steps back compared to sport.

If you take back to Back spins from GT7 to GTS On a bumpy circuit like the Ring’ or interlagos, it’s noticeable. At least to me it was

 

[Artremis]

I think the main issue with the FFB is that they seem to be applying some weird filtering when driving at high speed and especially in a straight line. If you're in a straight line, kerbs and surface in general will give you pretty much zero detail. This is mostly noticeable at the lesmos in Monza, where going straight on the kerbs in pretty much every other sim (including GTS!) will give you some very strong and noticeable feedback, while in GT7 it's completely smooth. Take the kerbs while turning slightly or at very low speed and the expected feedback does appear. I thought this could be related to the sensitivity slider in the settings since it says something like it'll make driving on a straight line gentler but this behavior happens regardless of what it's set to.

I wonder if the issue is perhaps that they're applying a low-speed filter backwards, because on the G29 at least there's a very common bug where after crashing, you'll get some ridiculous rattle on the wheel while speeding up again for a few seconds. This happened in GTS as well on the Mercedes F1 car but in 7 it seems to happen in a majority of them.

 

[br1x]

Because was terrible and all top split drivers hated it Btw dont understand this ffb talk to be honest, its okeish, for sure not acc level but its not main problem of gt7 physics. Extreme dirty air, exagerrated dowforce of gr1/superformula/formula cars, stupid double shiftings - does are real problems.

Acutally, those issues are just simple number tweaks to fix, the FFB on the other hand is completely f'd up and needs a complete rework.

 

[ILLEAGLE_34]

The definitive acid test would be; to find someone who had a DD1, and the ability to crank up the torque very high to compensate for the FFB strength nerf of 1.15, and hear what they had to say.


I think 1.15 FFB impressed us so much because GT7’s FFB was 2 steps back compared to sport.

If you take back to Back spins from GT7 to GTS On a bumpy circuit like the Ring’ or interlagos, it’s noticeable. At least to me it was

I’ll take a point, I’ve never been a square, on paper.

 

[mattikake]

I think the main issue with the FFB is that they seem to be applying some weird filtering when driving at high speed and especially in a straight line. If you're in a straight line, kerbs and surface in general will give you pretty much zero detail. This is mostly noticeable at the lesmos in Monza, where going straight on the kerbs in pretty much every other sim (including GTS!) will give you some very strong and noticeable feedback, while in GT7 it's completely smooth. Take the kerbs while turning slightly or at very low speed and the expected feedback does appear. I thought this could be related to the sensitivity slider in the settings since it says something like it'll make driving on a straight line gentler but this behavior happens regardless of what it's set to.

I wonder if the issue is perhaps that they're applying a low-speed filter backwards, because on the G29 at least there's a very common bug where after crashing, you'll get some ridiculous rattle on the wheel while speeding up again for a few seconds. This happened in GTS as well on the Mercedes F1 car but in 7 it seems to happen in a majority of them.

I think what you're describing/proving is "clipping". The ffb signal is there but at high speed it's too high, goes off the scale and the wheel can't convert it to motion, so it does nothing and the digital signal is clipped to real world actuation. At low speeds the signal is within range of the wheel so it can actuate it.

The is why 1.15 worked better because they turned it all down but on a fanatec you can boost the ffb from a low signal.

If the known wheels that you are selecting as a controller in the game settings are just clipping, this it's seriously poor work from the devs. It's as basic as adding an "are you sure?" confirmation to quit buttons - the kind of thing you learn at school on day 1 of how to program a compooterthing... oh yeah, took them a few patches to add that in too.

 

[snc]

Acutally, those issues are just simple number tweaks to fix, the FFB on the other hand is completely f'd up and needs a complete rework.

Even more frustrating (btw apparently great ff on new expensive logitech so maybe its not that complicated)

 

[Scaff]

Even more frustrating (btw apparently great ff on new expensive logitech so maybe its not that complicated)

To repeat me from earlier in the thread...

Trueforce is nothing more than limited tactile feedback, and it's not really doing anything that a tactile set-up can't already do (with fewer options and supporting fewer titles in many cases), as a 'freebie' on the G923 I can see its appeal, but having tried one a few times, it doesn't offer what a full tactile set-up does.

...it's not FFB.

 

[snc]

To repeat me from earlier in the thread...


...it's not FFB.

I have no idea what it is, never tried wheel. I only watched gtplanet review and random callsign and both praised ff on gt7, maybe both reviews were full of bs, dont know but I can belive is good.

 

[Scaff]

I have no idea what it is, never tried wheel. I only watched gtplanet review and random callsign and both praised ff on gt7, maybe both reviews were full of bs, dont know but I can belive is good.

Feel free to, it's the same system as the G923 and it's a tactile transducer, not FFB.

 

[dimedancing]

It’s not a tactile transducer; it uses the existing FFB motors to create all the effects. They’re able to run at a higher frequency than the motors in the older wheels.

 

[Scaff]

It’s not a tactile transducer; it uses the existing FFB motors to create all the effects. They’re able to run at a higher frequency than the motors in the older wheels.

It's using the motors to mimic what a transducer does, you do know that isn't a plus?

 

[dimedancing]

I didn't say that it was. You said, "It's a tactile transducer, not FFB," when in fact it is FFB, not a tactile transducer.

 

[Scaff]

I didn't say that it was. You said, "It's a tactile transducer, not FFB," when in fact it is FFB, not a tactile transducer.

OK!

 

[Krypton78]

I think the main issue with the FFB is that they seem to be applying some weird filtering when driving at high speed and especially in a straight line. If you're in a straight line, kerbs and surface in general will give you pretty much zero detail. This is mostly noticeable at the lesmos in Monza, where going straight on the kerbs in pretty much every other sim (including GTS!) will give you some very strong and noticeable feedback, while in GT7 it's completely smooth. Take the kerbs while turning slightly or at very low speed and the expected feedback does appear. I thought this could be related to the sensitivity slider in the settings since it says something like it'll make driving on a straight line gentler but this behavior happens regardless of what it's set to.

I wonder if the issue is perhaps that they're applying a low-speed filter backwards, because on the G29 at least there's a very common bug where after crashing, you'll get some ridiculous rattle on the wheel while speeding up again for a few seconds. This happened in GTS as well on the Mercedes F1 car but in 7 it seems to happen in a majority of them.

This fits with my observation that its worse FFB in Gr.1. I was shocked when it fellt like nothing when driving at the Suzuka Offline-Race (10 rounds) over the curbs. I have a DD Pro.
For me the FFB is the most important and so the game will keep being broken for me as long as it is not fixed. And this wont be possible as long as they dont fix the whole triangle:
cars setups - physics of suspensions/ downforce - FFB

 

[GTboyz]

Another adjustments, hopefully for the better.

 

[Yard_Sale]

I have a feeling the new physics model is going to be good. “LSD changes” and “suspension changes”, to me means they’re trying to help out some of the group 3 MR’s. Practically no one was using them as their Manu in FIA. To twitchy and the tire wear was atrocious

 

[sejtur]

"Suspension geometry for each car has been adjusted."

I hold my breath.

 

[Techlet]

So, any clue what "Adjusted the performance of the wireless controller." actually did?

 

[k20_Bones]

So, any clue what "Adjusted the performance of the wireless controller." actually did?

I just went to drive something to check it out. Mind you im a wheel user. Just ran 2 sec faster at tsukuba with my daily race A car on pad. Inputs felt phenomenal. Gonna setup my wheel and see if its the physics now

 

[F30clubman]

1.25 feels like a huge improvement to me. Not all physics problems are solved, but many imo.
Especially the functioning of the LSD working which made cars behave strangely in corners feels much much more natural now. Most of all on FR cars, e.g. the RX-7, or the '70s AMG Mercedes on SH tyres. Rear wheel slip under power starts and ends more abruptly: you feel the wheels loose and regain grip. It really feels (and sounds and looks) like wheelslip now, not any more like an unexplainable and too smooth sideways movement of the rear axis. It feels very comparable to Assetto Corsa now (thanks @ sejtur for making me return to AC to compare a few weeks ago).
The Ferrari 250 GTO which has NO LSD in the game (in reality it does however have one) suffers now more of 1 wheel slip under acceleration while turning.

Another big change concerns the race cars - which I cannot not judge as well since I've been avoiding race cars due to the unreal understeer. I'd say they now DO turn when you turn the front wheels, and got rid of excessive understeer. E.g. the Group 5 Nissan suddenly has become a less predictable and much more enjoyable beast when the rpm reaches its peak power (even on slicks) Same for the M3 GT2 car.

Powerfull MR cars like the Diablo and McLaren F1 which suffered of heavy understeer do turn now better imo. More difficult to judge is the Carrera GT. Excessive front wheel lock under braking on these cars is not solved.

Force feedback on Front wheel drive cars still does not feel good imo. But in the 4WD Lamborghinis I'd say there is now more loss of grip on the front axle under power.

Still work to do, but PD did a great job here imo. 👌

(tested with steering wheel G29)

 

[NevilleNobody]

So are the race cars now more or less twitchy on the throttle? With TC1 so savage and uncompetitive I don't fancy having to feather the throttle more than i already do in Group 2, 3 and 4 non AWD cars.

 

[Omiyup]

How's the change? Recently I used harder springs on awd cars with SS tyres, it became more predictable in 1.23/1.24 patches than in 1.20 I need to use softer springs (used 2.30 ish, and now on 2.80 ish with sports softs)