Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[bliprunner]

I've driven on a Logitech G29 for the 7 years it lasted me. Just had a test run of my new wheel, the Thrustmaster T300 GT Edition, and I ran the Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A '02 on the Nordschleife on both GT7 and PS4 AC. No aids except for factory ABS and auto blip (I don't have a shifter).

The physics of GT7 have never jived with me. Even now, almost a year into release, the cars feel unnatural, uninformative, and sometimes downright random in where and how they lose grip. When I slam on the brakes, the rear end will swing out as though an air–cooled 911 if I gave it any slight steering angle. The suspension seems to have excessive stroke both front and rear, and it greatly exaggerates how unstable the car becomes under braking. Past the apexes of corners, it takes only a microscopic throttle input to spin out this sub 300HP car with 255 section rear tyres, especially when riding on the trackside kerbs. And it happens with no warning and feedback.

The force feedback in GT7 might as well not exist. The road feels as smooth as soapy mirror; nothing of the high kerbs or the undulating banking of the Karussell comes through, let alone any nuanced surface details of the road. The only feedback I get from the steering wheel is when the front tyres have exceeded their grip, in which case I only get an awkward, sudden juddering effect from the wheel. The wheel itself doesn't "load up" when approaching the limits of grip when turning, nor does it lighten up at all when grip is lost and the tyres are slipping. Quite simply, I never know what the heck is going on with the tyres of the car, because of how bad the FFB of GT7 is. The especially frustrating part is that I could've sworn I felt all that in GTS.

I actually had a much easier time driving this combo in AC, the supposedly more hardcore simulator, and I don't even have the words. The car and track felt alive. I could feel myself building up to the limits of the car. It took about two laps before I felt that "eureka!" moment, and everything clicked, and I could just lose myself and turn lap after lap without incident—something GT7 hasn't achieved in almost a year.

Does anyone have any advice for me on how I can understand GT7's physics? Any views or opinions are also welcome. Thanks in advance. I really, really want to like GT7, but its physics just feel incredibly random and arbitrary to me.

Sounds like it’s either firmware or the wheel setting, have a read of this thread

Best t300 wheel settings for gt7?

Best wheel settings for t300 on gt7?

www.gtplanet.net

where people report a similar feeling

 

[tonderai]

Iracing and other full simulators have complex physics but still don't have netcode problems, i don't think that is an issue for online racing

They also look like mash potato. GT is also pushing for excellent visuals so I can see why physics model resources may need to be managed in order for this visual performance to run smoothly. There is limited resources in a console

 

[XSquareStickIt]

Sounds like it’s either firmware or the wheel setting, have a read of this thread

Best t300 wheel settings for gt7?

Best wheel settings for t300 on gt7?

www.gtplanet.net

where people report a similar feeling

Thanks for pointing that out! I had a read and changed my steering sensitivity from 10 to 1 and it made a lot of difference. Who knew that telling the game, "I want max sensitivity" meant "I don't want any feedback"?

Still, the rear ends of cars breaking away without warning is still a big issue for me. I've had to drive with earphones to listen to the tyres slipping because I sure as hell am not feeling it.

 

[BigSarj]

The strange thing is that I tend to feel a lot more of the road and tires when driving with a dualsense. So I don't know if the tracks are lacking the texture or whatever or if it's simply poor implementation of ffb.

 

[bliprunner]

Thanks for pointing that out! I had a read and changed my steering sensitivity from 10 to 1 and it made a lot of difference. Who knew that telling the game, "I want max sensitivity" meant "I don't want any feedback"?

Still, the rear ends of cars breaking away without warning is still a big issue for me. I've had to drive with earphones to listen to the tyres slipping because I sure as hell am not feeling it.

Still sounds weird that you're not getting much feeling for loading and rear snapping, I had a T300 and switched between PS4/PS5 AC, ACC, F1, Dirt, GTS, GT7 - they are all different but not that much. I think my GT7 settings were Torque 6 and Sensitivity 1 and the force should be strong when cornering up to the edge of traction.

If you have the right firmware and wheel setting (red light for PS5, orange PS4) it's worth checking the pedals too, make sure the in game accelerator and brake display match the full travel of each pedal. I had issues with my TM pedals.

 

[Beezer215]

Does anyone have any advice for me on how I can understand GT7's physics? Any views or opinions are also welcome. Thanks in advance. I really, really want to like GT7, but its physics just feel incredibly random and arbitrary to me.

It's never going to be easy to understand. There are way less physics calculations being done then on AC. That's why a lot of the cars have a similar feel and some of the actions don't make sense. Sadly they probably never will. Through a wheel, AC is going to deliver more feedback that's a lot more informative than GT can deliver.

Does anyone know how many contact points the tire has in GT7?

One point of contact per tire.

 

[xiimracing]

Feels to me that since the update they eliminated the "downshift for more rotation", feel like more grip in low speed / corner exit (almost alien grip, where it was rotating with oversteer before) but also overall more understeer / less rotation on brake...

Having tested this with 18 GT-R GT3 on road atlanta which i was putting in hundreds of laps for an upcoming event in the past weeks, and it doesnt feel the same now...

Known trick on atlanta : Quickly shift down to 1st on the tightest turn of the track and back up to 2nd/3rd depending on car giving you that extra rotation, and this doesnt work anymore... (Which is okai because shifting into the rev limiter for rotation isnt realistic) But the amount of grip i now get on that low speed corner is also quite "alien"...

It just feels different to me, and probably is... Cant tell if better or worse, first have to get used to it again and time will tell, but it feels overall more stable... 😅

 

[SilVO]

Maybe i'm wrong but, after amost a year LSD works properly..

Now, Stock cars, whith only Lsd modification can change car behaviour in a very effettive way.

Grand Valley is a amusment Park for this kind of test.

Ciao!

 

[Dunderbolt]

Thanks for pointing that out! I had a read and changed my steering sensitivity from 10 to 1 and it made a lot of difference. Who knew that telling the game, "I want max sensitivity" meant "I don't want any feedback"?

Still, the rear ends of cars breaking away without warning is still a big issue for me. I've had to drive with earphones to listen to the tyres slipping because I sure as hell am not feeling it.

Others say it's an issue of suspension. I say it's an issue of slip angle not being modeled correctly. And possibly it's a mix of both.

Every car in the game is unpredictable in it's behavior when what should be large amounts of slip angle have been generated.
Instead of being able to feel out where the limit of grip is, you have to repeatedly tap around in the dark. One toe past the imperceptible line. Your car just begins to slide. Even cars with large amounts of downforce should show evidence of slip angle before the car begins to enter a spin. I've taken screencaps of stock muscle cars (Sport hard/meds should really show off the effect to an exaggerated degree.) going around corners, and these cars look like they've glued themselves to the road. Take a good look at the old 1987 riverside nascar race and you can really see slip angle at work, especially from the interior of the car. Polar opposite to what GT7 illustrates.

Weirdly enough, while testing on Willow Springs. On the big right-hander. Losing traction and regaining traction constantly . As in, going from stable as a rail to "I'm needing to countsteer hard" actually led to better lap times.

This game's physics are just a bucket full of bad and weird

 

[GTboyz]

Feels to me that since the update they eliminated the "downshift for more rotation", feel like more grip in low speed / corner exit (almost alien grip, where it was rotating with oversteer before) but also overall more understeer / less rotation on brake...

So that's why doing the GVH CE seems harder to me.

 

[AlexWilmot]

Nope… lower gears haven’t been changed, they still offer the weird extra rotation

 

[Phantom_Mark]

Maybe i'm wrong but, after amost a year LSD works properly..

Now, Stock cars, whith only Lsd modification can change car behaviour in a very effettive way.

Grand Valley is a amusment Park for this kind of test.

Ciao!

Funny you should mention that, I was feeling the same but put it down to placebo and me just getting used to the game !!

Previously I used to run something like 40/5/5 , where now 50/30/30 feels much more effective ?

 

[R3V]

My first time driving with a wheel since the physics update I think. Have I forgotten how bad it was, or has nothing changed? The Corvette in the Sophy race is undriveable. I lose the rear with literally 0 warning. I do recall the physics interacting poorly with camber changes.

 

[Dunderbolt]

My first time driving with a wheel since the physics update I think. Have I forgotten how bad it was, or has nothing changed? The Corvette in the Sophy race is undriveable. I lose the rear with literally 0 warning. I do recall the physics interacting poorly with camber changes.

C8?

Yeah, All Mid-engines are jacked up in the game and suffer the most from the broken grip the tires lack. C8 just really shows it off well.

You can add a huge wing, but your car never feels like it's planted from the downforce. It feels like you were just given extra grip and not a physical force anchoring you down.

 

[Firestone]

It's never going to be easy to understand. There are way less physics calculations being done then on AC. That's why a lot of the cars have a similar feel and some of the actions don't make sense. Sadly they probably never will. Through a wheel, AC is going to deliver more feedback that's a lot more informative than GT can deliver.

One point of contact per tire.

I don't know. AC's grip levels feel really binary. Once your tires hit kinetic friction, it stays there until they don't. The progression is weird. The suspension modeling doesn't seem very active in the game also. Feels like a lot more is going on in GT, even with the poorer feedback. AC exaggerates wheel feedback for more immersion anyways. I've been evaluating feedback on my real car. Most of the feeling is the car vibrating and the steering is dull and probably would be for most power steering systems.

 

[Beezer215]

I don't know. AC's grip levels feel really binary. Once your tires hit kinetic friction, it stays there until they don't. The progression is weird. The suspension modeling doesn't seem very active in the game also. Feels like a lot more is going on in GT, even with the poorer feedback. AC exaggerates wheel feedback for more immersion anyways. I've been evaluating feedback on my real car. Most of the feeling is the car vibrating and the steering is dull and probably would be for most power steering systems.

For all the track days and weekend warrior races I've done in various cars, AC comes a lot closer to a feeling of being in a car on the limit the GT7 for sure. GT7 is more of a game, it feels like a game. And that's OK. Clearly it isn't taking it fully seriously to be accessible. What car did you even drive in AC? There's thousands each with different characteristics. I would say there's a lot less going on in physics calculations in GT7, because there isn't as many calculations going on. That's a limitation of hardware that we've seen since GT7 has came out. If you were to use AC 5 times a week then going to GT7 would feel weird. Content manager allows you to adjust and shape the FFB in so many ways that it's hard to derive one opinion for one setting when you can transform the feeling to fit your expectations. Not just 2 settings like GT7. lol. AC feels wonderful through my DD2 and I know exactly what the car is doing and is going to do. GT7 cars, especially mid engine, just snap in an unpredictable way if it loses grip in one direction it seems like there's always going to be a over correction and you're going to go around in the opposite direction as it snaps the other way.

 

[Greycap]

I've been evaluating feedback on my real car. Most of the feeling is the car vibrating and the steering is dull and probably would be for most power steering systems.

This is exactly what most people would have to realize. The actual steering rack forces in a real car are nothing like the ones they're used to in games, there's very little other than a centering force and some aligning force when the rear steps out - and the wheel is always quite light to turn. People have got used to greatly overexaggerated FFB effects of the years, not to mention that the general consensus is that FFB is only good when it's so heavy that you need two hands with a death grip to drive a modern road car. Anything else gets immediately judged as bad FFB, and anyone daring to disagree is free game for the self promoted sim racing experts.

 

[sonnyboychris]

I wouldn't mind if the current physics are retained in GT8 but only for arcade mode only. For the main game/simulation aspect, it needs to be improved drastically.

The strange thing is that I tend to feel a lot more of the road and tires when driving with a dualsense. So I don't know if the tracks are lacking the texture or whatever or if it's simply poor implementation of ffb.

I believe that it's def a poor FFB implementation. God only knows if they'll ever address it...

 

[Beezer215]

This is exactly what most people would have to realize. The actual steering rack forces in a real car are nothing like the ones they're used to in games, there's very little other than a centering force and some aligning force when the rear steps out - and the wheel is always quite light to turn. People have got used to greatly overexaggerated FFB effects of the years, not to mention that the general consensus is that FFB is only good when it's so heavy that you need two hands with a death grip to drive a modern road car. Anything else gets immediately judged as bad FFB, and anyone daring to disagree is free game for the self promoted sim racing experts.

No Car Simulation is going to be like driving a real car. I don't think that is the intended purpose anyways. Heavier is most definitely not better. That's just dead weight. Where the magic is, is transferring a cars data to your hands in order to understand what a car is doing and how it feels on the road. None of it is like real life however in that same aspect, some just do it better than others. Drive rFactor 2 through a real nice Direct Drive wheel and you can feel the suspension load, the lateral weight transfer, tire grip loss. rF2 is arguably the best FFB in the genre. There's nothing "heavy" about it, it's transferring tons of detail though.

 

[R3V]

C8?

Yeah, All Mid-engines are jacked up in the game and suffer the most from the broken grip the tires lack. C8 just really shows it off well.

You can add a huge wing, but your car never feels like it's planted from the downforce. It feels like you were just given extra grip and not a physical force anchoring you down.

I think it was the C7. I'll see if I can spend the day tomorrow in VR and try different cars.

 

[Firestone]

For all the track days and weekend warrior races I've done in various cars, AC comes a lot closer to a feeling of being in a car on the limit the GT7 for sure. GT7 is more of a game, it feels like a game. And that's OK. Clearly it isn't taking it fully seriously to be accessible. What car did you even drive in AC? There's thousands each with different characteristics. I would say there's a lot less going on in physics calculations in GT7, because there isn't as many calculations going on. That's a limitation of hardware that we've seen since GT7 has came out. If you were to use AC 5 times a week then going to GT7 would feel weird. Content manager allows you to adjust and shape the FFB in so many ways that it's hard to derive one opinion for one setting when you can transform the feeling to fit your expectations. Not just 2 settings like GT7. lol. AC feels wonderful through my DD2 and I know exactly what the car is doing and is going to do. GT7 cars, especially mid engine, just snap in an unpredictable way if it loses grip in one direction it seems like there's always going to be a over correction and you're going to go around in the opposite direction as it snaps the other way.

I track an Evo. The closest base awd car to the Evo in AC is the GTR Nismo. The Nismo feels like an open diff awd system in AC. The GTR has the best in the biz active rear diff, yet the car doesn't want to turn in AC. Turn in is lazy and the car scrubs wide. Another car I hooned around in is the FRS (GT86). The '13 models had very stiff rear suspension that would kick out the rear with ease. Even the later models you can kick the rear out rather easily, especially in high speed cornering on the factory tires. There is over correction that needs to be taken into account. This is nowhere to be found in AC. On eco tires, the car just scrubs wide, no lively rear end, no matter how hard I try to toss the car around. I said getting into slides is binary because the tire limits don't feel progressive. The physics model between these cars don't feel accurate. There has been other discussion earlier on this thread last year with examples of other cars that just don't perform to their true life counterparts. I read that there are some mods that fix some cars, but there are more lack of quality cars. I've tested some other vanilla cars and the steering response of the cars don't feel natural to me. Cars feel much better in GT

 

[ScottPuss20]

I don't know. AC's grip levels feel really binary. Once your tires hit kinetic friction, it stays there until they don't.

This is totally false. You can say this about Project Cars on a controller but with AC and ACC it simply isn't the case. It's not binary in the slightest - there's a tonne of depth to the tyre model and you can usually tell when the car is about to break loose. If it truly was "binary" as you describe, you wouldn't get a warning and you'd just crash.

 

[Firestone]

This is totally false. You can say this about Project Cars on a controller but with AC and ACC it simply isn't the case. It's not binary in the slightest - there's a tonne of depth to the tyre model and you can usually tell when the car is about to break loose. If it truly was "binary" as you describe, you wouldn't get a warning and you'd just crash.

ACC feels different than AC. ACC feels like it has proper slip and it is very progressive. AC feels off. Turning in feels like an on and off switch at times. There is warning, but understeer is too prevalent and takes away any progressive slip, or slip occurs at weird steering angles. There doesn't seem to be any variation in build up depending on your driving characteristics. It always feels like there is only one way to drive the cars. Initial steering turn in response feels completely off also. I don't know, it doesn't feel natural at all to drive.

 

[Beezer215]

It sounds also like you're on console AC and not PC AC. There's a difference there and a bit more depth to the physics as well. Especially with CSP's extended physics. I had AC Ultimate Edition for my PS4 before too before going full on PC and I would say that console AC is a little more bare bones. We can now change new FFB profiles/settings on top of additional files that can be read in the data by AC's physics engine that compensate for past vague areas.

A recent video on the settings however I have a DD2 and my settings are not what this guy uses.

 

[Beezer215]

ACC feels different than AC. ACC feels like it has proper slip and it is very progressive. AC feels off. Turning in feels like an on and off switch at times. There is warning, but understeer is too prevalent and takes away any progressive slip, or slip occurs at weird steering angles. There doesn't seem to be any variation in build up depending on your driving characteristics. It always feels like there is only one way to drive the cars. Initial steering turn in response feels completely off also. I don't know, it doesn't feel natural at all to drive.

And just for fun; is this GT7 or Assetto Corsa?

 

[05XR8]

It’s funny, in VR, I’m ”feeling” more of the sensation of a car’s suspension. Particularly the classic cars. I tuned my Mach 1, but even with the race set up, it moves around like an older car should. Like a car with low to no downforce should.
Granted, I’m a DS4 user, but it feels more communicative than in tv mode.
I guess since more of the mind is at play, in VR, the Gran Turismo physics translate better. That’s how I feel about the physics right now.

 

[BigSarj]

It’s funny, in VR, I’m ”feeling” more of the sensation of a car’s suspension. Particularly the classic cars. I tuned my Mach 1, but even with the race set up, it moves around like an older car should. Like a car with low to no downforce should.
Granted, I’m a DS4 user, but it feels more communicative than in tv mode.
I guess since more of the mind is at play, in VR, the Gran Turismo physics translate better. That’s how I feel about the physics right now.

I feel it too, on a wheel. It actually makes up for the bad ffb from time to time.

 

[su27killer]

I track an Evo. The closest base awd car to the Evo in AC is the GTR Nismo. The Nismo feels like an open diff awd system in AC. The GTR has the best in the biz active rear diff, yet the car doesn't want to turn in AC. Turn in is lazy and the car scrubs wide. Another car I hooned around in is the FRS (GT86). The '13 models had very stiff rear suspension that would kick out the rear with ease. Even the later models you can kick the rear out rather easily, especially in high speed cornering on the factory tires. There is over correction that needs to be taken into account. This is nowhere to be found in AC. On eco tires, the car just scrubs wide, no lively rear end, no matter how hard I try to toss the car around. I said getting into slides is binary because the tire limits don't feel progressive. The physics model between these cars don't feel accurate. There has been other discussion earlier on this thread last year with examples of other cars that just don't perform to their true life counterparts. I read that there are some mods that fix some cars, but there are more lack of quality cars. I've tested some other vanilla cars and the steering response of the cars don't feel natural to me. Cars feel much better in GT

that's my experience as well, I have driven BMW E92 M3 many times in RL and the car feels much closer to reality in Gran Turismo than AC (on PC)

I have a feeling that hardcore PC sims are just "oversimulated". On a dry track most modern cars aren't really that hard to drive even if you turn off all assists.

 

[Firestone]

It sounds also like you're on console AC and not PC AC. There's a difference there and a bit more depth to the physics as well. Especially with CSP's extended physics. I had AC Ultimate Edition for my PS4 before too before going full on PC and I would say that console AC is a little more bare bones. We can now change new FFB profiles/settings on top of additional files that can be read in the data by AC's physics engine that compensate for past vague areas.

A recent video on the settings however I have a DD2 and my settings are not what this guy uses.

I'll pick up AC on PC with the next Steam sale to evaluate it.

 

[Arthur-A]

I haven't played AC on a console, only on PC. With the CM, SOL and all the mods. Most recently it was at this place:

Simulation Racing Center | GripWerx Simulation Racing

www.gripwerxracing.com

So it's on top notch equipment. The FFB is really good on the wheel. But overall I wasn't impressed with the AC physics. The tire grip level is unrealistically low. Playing GT7 on a controller I feel that it is much closer to IRL driving on a race track.