Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[Scaff]

I've been running laps at Spa this morning trying to improve my time in the TT in the NSX. Lots and lots of understeer moments let me tell you! lol...but nothing even remotely describable as violent shaking.

I've not described it as violet shaking personally, it's more a vibration that shouldn't be occurring, and comes across as a canned effect.

Titles that run pure physics-based FFB (or ones that allow you to switch off canned effects) demonstrate the difference clearly if you've never experienced it in reality.

The wheel doesn't go completely limp. There's always a bit of weight on it, but no steering authority until grip is re-attained. But I don't think it really should go completely weightless.

Again I've not described it as completely weightless, but it can (and will vary depending on the tyre) be significant (80%+).

 

[ZevZoq]

I've not described it as violet shaking personally, it's more a vibration that shouldn't be occurring, and comes across as a canned effect.

Titles that run pure physics-based FFB (or ones that allow you to switch off canned effects) demonstrate the difference clearly if you've never experienced it in reality.

Again I've not described it as completely weightless, but it can (and will vary depending on the tyre) be significant (80%+).

yeah...80%. It feels like the only weight on the wheel is mechanical resistance - nothing else. I feel a very very light bit of vibration...but I can't really even characterize it as being related to understeer. It's almost un-notable. Certainly not anything that would cause me to characterize the FF in GT7 as un-usable or terrible or random noise or anything like that.

I do experience understeer quite a lot in RL. I live in central Canada and spend about 4 months of every year driving on ice lol.

 

[Scaff]

yeah...80%. It feels like the only weight on the wheel is mechanical resistance - nothing else. I feel a very very light bit of vibration...but I can't really even characterize it as being related to understeer. It's almost un-notable. Certainly not anything that would cause me to characterize the FF in GT7 as un-usable or terrible or random noise or anything like that.

That may be down to the G29 itself, as at 2-ish nm of torque it's going to be a lot less noticeable, the key thing is that it simply shouldn't be present until after peak slip has occured.

I do experience understeer quite a lot in RL. I live in central Canada and spend about 4 months of every year driving on ice lol.

Now imagine being at a much higher degree of steering weight and feeling an 80% odd drop-off!

 

[ZevZoq]

That may be down to the G29 itself, as at 2-ish nm of torque it's going to be a lot less noticeable...

I suppose that's possible. Seems weird of PD to bung up a fake effect that the vast majority of players wouldn't even be able to really feel though. I mean the vibration I'm getting is so innocuous and intermittent that I could easily characterize it as just the tires momentarily regaining a bit of grip and scrubbing.

 

[Scaff]

I suppose that's possible. Seems weird of PD to bung up a fake effect that the vast majority of players wouldn't even be able to really feel though.

It's an easy (but canned and innacurate) way of getting players to back off steering input when starting to understeer.

I mean the vibration I'm getting is so innocuous and intermittent that I could easily characterize it as just the tires momentarily regaining a bit of grip and scrubbing.

Which it could be, if it didn't happen at the onset of understeer. GT has it occurring at roughly the 3-degree of slip on the example gough curve below when it should only start happening beyond the 6-degree point (once slip has exceeded the point when you start to lose lateral force i.e. grip).

Ever noticed a real-world racing driver constantly moving the steering wheel during cornering? That's they balancing the car between the 4-degree and 6-degree point to keep peak grip/lateral force, constantly balancing the car on the very edge of grip*, while the tyres are at the ideal slip-angle for grip. Oh, and scrub at speed can be quite un-subtle.

*note, the exact slip angles will vary depending on the car, tyre, and condition.

 

[ZevZoq]

THat doesn't describe the vibration I'm referring to. It's not something I'm noting at any specific point. It's often not something I note at all. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't even really be able to say it's got anything to do with understeer. It certainly doesn't feel like some sort of canned "you're now entering understeer" effect. I don't know what to tell you. Just not something I've really noticed.

It's an easy (but canned and innacurate) way of getting players to back off steering input when starting to understeer.

Yes, I undertand the intention. I'm just saying it seems strange for them to build in that sort of effect in a way that would be barely noticeable on the wheel the majority of players are likely to have. I mean I think the G29 is still probably by far the most common setup used by GT7 players...

 

[PirovacBoy]

If your profile is accurate, I've ten years on you, so please stop.

Huh?! Stop... Like what exactly.
Calling you young.?
I mean age is relative. To me you are not old.
Lad? Like trying to be friendly in order to engage in a discussion?
Didn't knew it's forbidden, so apologies for trying to be kind with my opening words.

can assure you, that was funnier in your head.

Err, funnier?!
Whats should be funnier in my head...?
Don't exactly get what you mean or imply but again, apologies for my kindness and honest words.
Apparently some people truly can't handle when others are just honestand direct, always assuming something negative... Strange.

Yes, because I'm basing it on what we should feel via a wheel.

Should feel or do feel?
Should is very hypothetical.
Do is more accurate.
But I take that answer as your personal opinion, fair play.

Good job I've not claimed that then...

Of course you haven't unless you have which I haven't claimed either.

When cornering.

Yes, and not only cornering, same goes for heavy acceleration as well as heavy braking.

It's actually far more important that the information being sent to the wheelbase is accurate

Well, partly correct as the best signal is nothing without the appropriate decoding capabilities the hardware has to offer.

I've not said otherwise.

Imagine you would have.

Have you ever driven a race preped car at speed on a track?

Race prepped nah, but there have been some non oem machineries kind of close to what I assume many would call Sportscar territory.

And your real life observations are based on?

Well, I thought that's obvious... Real life?!

Fact and a good degree of personal experience.

Hmm, so it's true we all live in our little bubbles huh.

Actually quite a few 'not-facts' from you.

OK that answer is debatable as long as I actually knew what not - facts I made which I haven't as far as I'm aware of.

Yep we get it, you've had a range of wheelbases, you're not alone.

Not just Wheelbases, I also have played many racing games with them Wheelbases throughout my 24 year long Sim Racing journey... which I assume I'm most probably not alone too but can imagine that I'm at least in a minority.

Wut?

I thought my sentence was clear as night and day... Maybe I should have explained it more detailed, I just belived you'd get the puzzle sorted.

Lateral Load (i.e. steering weight) can reduce by 80% or more before peak slip is reached (and therefore before any tyre skip should be felt), I've never felt GT7 do this, I have experienced it in numerous other titles.

There is always room for slight improvements.
I'm convinced Kaz and PD are mainly focusing on that game changing aspect for GT8.

That still don't feel accurate for lift-off oversteer or the rear getting loose under breaking.

OK now we have to agree to disagree... Accurate or not but it's definitely simulated, probably not accurate enough by a scientists or your point of view... Yet it's in the FFB Signal.

So you're claiming that GT7 is accurate because it ignores stuff? Odd.

False.
Again a wrong and misled conclusion.
I said that basically less can occasionally be more informative and clearly we shouldn't be obscured with distractious Signals masking the truly necessary ones in order to react appropriately to what is actually happening.

Good for you, doesn't make GT7 the uber-accurate sim you're claiming it to be.

Depends on how you define Uber accurate.
Keeping them expectations in check, paired with to some degree accurate basic Sim characteristics which in my case absolutely convinces me as far as PD has done with GT7, I think I don't have much to be desired for the upcoming iteration PD will most pr come up rather soon then late.
Let's see what funky calculations the PS6 will have to offer.
As long as it's as intuitive and precise as GT7 is... It can only get even better.

 

[xX Jojje Xx]

FFB ( Fanatec GT DD Pro 8Nm ):
GT 7 is ok
ACC is better
AC is best

In my humble opinion.

 

[Scaff]

Should feel or do feel?
Should is very hypothetical.
Do is more accurate.
But I take that answer as your personal opinion, fair play.

Should, as in compared to reality.

Of course you haven't unless you have which I haven't claimed either.

Then why infer as such by quoting me?

Yes, and not only cornering, same goes for heavy acceleration as well as heavy braking.

You claimed it was always present.

Well, partly correct as the best signal is nothing without the appropriate decoding capabilities the hardware has to offer.

Given that's a standard it can be assumed, the accuracy of input can't.

Imagine you would have.

Then why infer as such by quoting me?

Race prepped nah, but there have been some non oem machineries kind of close to what I assume many would call Sportscar territory.

Quite a difference between those, i can assure you.

Well, I thought that's obvious... Real life?!

Then let me be clearer, ad you seem to be avoiding answering. It what and where.

Hmm, so it's true we all live in our little bubbles huh.

Nope.

OK that answer is debatable as long as I actually knew what not - facts I made which I haven't as far as I'm aware of.

Avoidance again.

Not just Wheelbases, I also have played many racing games with them Wheelbases throughout my 24 year long Sim Racing journey... which I assume I'm most probably not alone too but can imagine that I'm at least in a minority.

Well a sim setup without a sim would be pretty pointless, again your not alone.

I thought my sentence was clear as night and day... Maybe I should have explained it more detailed, I just belived you'd get the puzzle sorted.

Still with the Avoidance.

There is always room for slight improvements.
I'm convinced Kaz and PD are mainly focusing on that game changing aspect for GT8.

They have a bit of catching up to do.

OK now we have to agree to disagree... Accurate or not but it's definitely simulated, probably not accurate enough by a scientists or your point of view... Yet it's in the FFB Signal.

I didn't say it wasn't simulated, try again.

False.
Again a wrong and misled conclusion.
I said that basically less can occasionally be more informative and clearly we shouldn't be obscured with distractious Signals masking the truly necessary ones in order to react appropriately to what is actually happening.

Which would be exactly what i said...

Depends on how you define Uber accurate.
Keeping them expectations in check, paired with to some degree accurate basic Sim characteristics which in my case absolutely convinces me as far as PD has done with GT7, I think I don't have much to be desired for the upcoming iteration PD will most pr come up rather soon then late.
Let's see what funky calculations the PS6 will have to offer.
As long as it's as intuitive and precise as GT7 is... It can only get even better.

Your claim was that "That's why GT7 is in my opinion the only Simulator which gets the job done.", yet you seem to be basing that on a limited sample of what the genre has to offer.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I can't believe what you just said.
Your opinion in all respect and please, without implying to sound disrespectful or harsh but let alone this comment completely disqualifies your ability or my good will to assume your competence for judgment in terms of FFB.
How on earth... 🫣

If we’re playing like that, let me remind you that recently in another thread, you referred to The Crew Motorfest as a “phenomenal driving simulation”.

But like you also said in that thread, fair play and to each his own.

 

[PirovacBoy]

@Scaff
Good Man, I don't get why you're actually avoiding to simply, well, kind of at least try to put in some seriousness or maturity when qouting my statements.

I mean I sincerely apologized for apparently having disturbed you by saying young lad, as if I meant it in a non honest way.
And on top of that you argue that you're physically 10years ahead of me, telling me to stop...yet judging by the way how you react it seems like you are 20years younger then me.
Like what?!

At least you could have accepted or shown some sign of maturity by simply taking note of my move.
Anyway, it's OK no worries.

Quoting my write up like a champ, picking apart the whole context,
actually actively avoiding some constructive debate and judging by the quality and very questionable and childish comments
excuse me but I just can't help myself but think that this won't lead us any further.
Let's leave it as it is.
Waste of time and I'm not keen to waste my precious time by running circles.
Have a good one Bud.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff
Good Man, I don't get why you're actually avoiding to simply, well, kind of at least try to put in some seriousness or maturity when qouting my statements.

That's exactly what I have done, despite your repeated attempts to use sarcasm and ad-hominin logical fallacies. You seem more pissed that I called it out rather than fall for the bait...

I've answered your questions and points in detail and politely, with both seriousness and maturity, the same can't be said in response, which is perhaps why you have 'noped' out.

I mean I sincerely apologized for apparently having disturbed you by saying young lad, as if I meant it in a non honest way.
And on top of that you argue that you're physically 10years ahead of me, telling me to stop...yet judging by the way how you react it seems like you are 20years younger then me.
Like what?!

At least you could have accepted or shown some sign of maturity by simply taking note of my move.
Anyway, it's OK no worries.

Quoting my write up like a champ, picking apart the whole context,
actually actively avoiding some constructive debate and judging by the quality and very questionable and childish comments
excuse me but I just can't help myself but think that this won't lead us any further.
Let's leave it as it is.
Waste of time and I'm not keen to waste my precious time by running circles.
Have a good one Bud.

Yet you still continue with zero real rebuttal, so I'm happy to take that for what it is. That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. As you seem to be basing your views on limited real world experience, combined with no experience of the sum of the total entries that exist in the genre.

For you "GT7 is in my opinion the only Simulator which gets the job done.", but only if you've never driven a race car on track for real world comparison and you limit the genre to only what is on PlayStation!

 

[PirovacBoy]

If we’re playing like that, let me remind you that recently in another thread, you referred to The Crew Motorfest as a “phenomenal driving simulation”.

But like you also said in that thread, fair play and to each his own.

Well first of all good evening stranger nice to meet you.
Hope you're doing well.
Secondly and back on topic, I'm not playing anything.
So please don't imply any intentions just because You think it was meant that way.
And yes I said exactly that sentence which again has been ripped out of context, and to be honest, the only reason why Mr. Random capt iglo is qouting me here is hands down bad intentions.
Discrediting and questioning my discernment.
I don't mind, honestly.
It's ok because it just once again proves how superficial some people act.
And guess what, exactly, I couldn't care less.
So yeah if sneaky or filthy behavior is your thing, fair play go ahead.

And yes, absolutely, Motorfest is a phenomenonal simulation.
Because guess what, calling a racing game a simulation does not demand from it being ultra realistic or sort of working by some super accurate FFB algorithm.
But I strongly believe that even if I would explain to you what exactly I meant by saying that sentence, which by the way I briefly tried to describe what I mean in that post in the Motorfest Forum, you same as many others around here wouldn't give a f.
Because a constructive debate is the least people like you are looking for.
Yeah what a honorable Man you are.
But... to each his own I guess.
Stay safe and take care 😁

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Well first of all good evening stranger nice to meet you.
Hope you're doing well.
Secondly and back on topic, I'm not playing anything.
So please don't imply any intentions just because You think it was meant that way.
And yes I said exactly that sentence which again has been ripped out of context, and to be honest, the only reason why Mr. Random capt iglo is qouting me here is hands down bad intentions.
Discrediting and questioning my discernment.
I don't mind, honestly.
It's ok because it just once again proves how superficial some people act.
And guess what, exactly, I couldn't care less.
So yeah if sneaky or filthy behavior is your thing, fair play go ahead.

And yes, absolutely, Motorfest is a phenomenonal simulation.
Because guess what, calling a racing game a simulation does not demand from it being ultra realistic or sort of working by some super accurate FFB algorithm.
But I strongly believe that even if I would explain to you what exactly I meant by saying that sentence, which by the way I briefly tried to describe what I mean in that post in the Motorfest Forum, you same as many others around here wouldn't give a f.
Because a constructive debate is the least people like you are looking for.
Yeah what a honorable Man you are.
But... to each his own I guess.
Stay safe and take care 😁

Look, I was just highlighting how easily one could also “completely discredit” your opinions in a physics discussion thread too.

It was a bit filthy but, like I said, I was just playing this discussion by the same rules as yourself when you made that completely uncalled for response to Nebuk72.

I’m aware of what Motorfest is and I’m aware of the fact that it has more nuance to its driving physics compared to other arcade racing games, but your definition of what makes a simulator doesn’t exactly line up with the opinions of many others.

So why should we trust your judgement anymore than anyone else in this thread, when you have your own barometer for what is a simulation and what’s not?

 

[NevilleNobody]

Took a lash at the super formula special race or whatever it is. Really different experience with a wheel vs a controller, night and day tbh. They're not cars that are suited well to squaring up the corner so a wheel really helps.

 

[extreme car]

Torque 5
Sensitivity 10

tried this setting today, sensitivity is way too high for my liking. It felt like every degree of steering wheel input the wheel turns 5-10 degree extra making the car real twitcy, highest I can set without the wheel feeling weird was sensitivity 5 but it didn't fix the random loss of FFB on curb and vibrating on understeer. I ran sensitivity 3 before I tried your setting with the same torque.

 

[ZevZoq]

tried this setting today, sensitivity is way too high for my liking. It felt like every degree of steering wheel input the wheel turns 5-10 degree extra making the car real twitcy, highest I can set without the wheel feeling weird was sensitivity 5 but it didn't fix the random loss of FFB on curb and vibrating on understeer. I ran sensitivity 3 before I tried your setting with the same torque.

ummm, I'm pretty sure that's not how the sensitivity setting works for the wheels. It's not that kind of sensitivity. That's how the sensitivity setting for controllers works though. It's not a linearity setting for the wheel.

 

[extreme car]

ummm, I'm pretty sure that's not how the sensitivity setting works. It's not that kind of sensitivity. That's how the sensitivity setting for controllers works though. It's not a linearity setting for the wheel.

pretty sure it does, I can really feel it especially when you're trying to countersteer on power slide.

 

[ZevZoq]

pretty sure it does, I can really feel it especially when you're trying to countersteer on power slide.

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. It doesn't work like that. Set it to zero and compare your wheel input to the little red dot on the screen for your steering input. THen set it to ten and do so again. You'll see there is no difference.

Or, just use cockpit view and watch the wheel rotation on screen relative to your G29 wheel. You'll see there is no difference between 0 and 10 wrt axis linearity.

 

[extreme car]

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. It doesn't work like that. Set it to zero and compare your wheel input to the little red dot on the screen for your steering input. THen setit to ten and do so again. You'll see there is no difference.

the dot on the screen is your steering angle not the actual tyre angle of the car. the way I test the sensitivity is to power slide the car, it's easier to catch the slide but harder to control the car due to the extra angle it puts on the tyre. at least that's how the higher sensitivity felt to me.

 

[ZevZoq]

the dot on the screen is your steering angle not the actual tyre angle of the car. the way I test the sensitivity is to power slide the car, it's easier to catch the slide but harder to control the car due to the extra angle it puts on the tyre. at least that's how the higher sensitivity felt to me.

Well, you do you...but you're mistaken about this. It's not putting an "extra angle" on the tire. I would suggest giving the settings a try for a while and adjust to it because I can assure you I get lots of good curb feel and other FF detail and can steer fine...

 

[extreme car]

Well, you do you...but you're mistaken about this. It's not putting an "extra angle" on the tire. I would suggest giving the settings a try for a while and adjust to it because I can assure you I get lots of good curb feel and other FF detail and can steer fine...

yup let's agree to disagree then, and no I wouldn't give your setting a while to adjust because like I said before it didn't give me the curb feel that you felt and the vibration on understeer is still there.

 

[ZevZoq]

Yeah it's a real conundrum. I did a bunch more laps at Spa yesterday and I tried hard to find this weird vibration effect and I just can't. I don't feel anything at all that's like a canned warning effect tied to understeer. I also did some laps at Nord in the Porsche GT3 RS and the Radical and the curb feel was just fantastic afaic. Obviously it varies based on the specifics of the given curb...whether they are high or shallow or rippled or smooth, but in general it just felt right. So I dunno... 🤷‍♂️

I should mention maybe that I don't really tune the cars at all. I'm driving them essentially stock...usually even including the tires.

 

[Kriptical]

Re: ff sensi in game slider

From @LOGI_Rich
FYI we reached out to Polyphony because some of the things in that YT video seemed incorrect, based on the in-game descriptions of the settings. I'd previously said that the controller sensitivity setting didn't have any effect on wheels and the description of the FFB Sensitivity setting also seemed incorrect, so here's the response from Polyphony:

• "Controller Steering sensitivity" only affects the pad type controller and has no effect on steering wheels.
• "Force feedback sensitivity" emphasises the feel near the centre of the steering wheel and has no damping effect.

 

[ZevZoq]

Re ff sensi in game:

Prior to the recent physics update I always ran 1 (or 0...whatever the lowest setting is). With the new physics it seemed like so much FF was gone that I started bumping it up and ended up fully at the other end of the spectrum which brought the effects back to where they had been. Logirich found very similar with the G29.

 

[Kriptical]

Prior to the recent physics update I always ran 1 (or 0...whatever the lowest setting is). With the new physics it seemed like so much FF was gone that I started bumping it up and ended up fully at the other end of the spectrum which brought the effects back to where they had been. Logirich found very similar with the G29.

I borked the quote. Its fixed now.

 

[ZevZoq]

I borked the quote. Its fixed now.

I'm not entirely sure how to interpret that. "emphasises the feel near the centre of the steering wheel". As usual with these things it's obtuse. I mean I could agree that the wheel sensitivity setting does emphasise the "feel" near the centre of the wheel if that refers to helping eliminate the odd deadzone I was referring to. I'm not sure I'd say that means it affects linearity or steering ratio though...

 

[Skinny McLean]

It's genuinely bewildering to see some people criticize GT7's force-feedback. How can anyone not recognize the sheer brilliance and intricacy of its design? These critics — certain youngsters who likely have never even driven a car — seem oblivious to the revolutionary technology at play. GT7 isn't just a racing game; it's the pinnacle of virtual motorsport technology. The force-feedback and physics engine in GT7 are nothing short of revolutionary, outclassing even the most advanced professional simulators. The realism is so immersive that it demands an elite setup to truly appreciate its intricacies. Let's be clear — poor people wheel bases simply don't cut it. If you're not experiencing GT7 with top-tier hardware, you're missing the essence of the game, the finesse of every curve, the precision of every shift.

For those of us in the know, it’s apparent that configuring your wheel base for GT7 isn't just a task; it's an art form. Only the truly discerning can unlock the full potential of this masterpiece. It’s not just about plugging in a wheel and hoping for the best. It’s about understanding the depths of GT7’s sophisticated physics engine and calibrating your setup to match its unmatched capabilities.

Let's face it, most players lack the expertise to even begin to configure their wheel base correctly. The brilliance of GT7's force-feedback lies in its ability to replicate the minutest details of car handling and road texture, and it requires a connoisseur's touch to dial in the perfect settings.

In a world where mediocrity is the norm, GT7 stands as a beacon of excellence. It’s for those who not only demand the best but are willing to push their skills and equipment to the utmost limits. If you’re not experiencing GT7 in its full glory, well, it’s simple — you’re not experiencing GT7 at all.


(It seems like you were wrong, @Knukel - otherwise it'd have read something like the above.)

 

[Knukel]

@Skinny McLean Yep, there's a pattern of him combining AI and own texts.

 

[Meythia]

even begin to configure their wheel base correctly.

Imho, it should be plug and play for a simple reason:
it is all physics and physics are facts.
If I hit a bump with a car, there should be no "you only feel as much as you have configured" but default settings as close as possible to compare the virtual bump to the real bump with the very same car.
Any further configuration should be available only to weaken it in case of drivers who are not accustomed to it.