Gran Turismo 7 Physics

[newmedia_dev]

@PirovacBoy have you experienced the shaft shudder when really pushing on deep at the apex? I'm DD Pro so it may well be just something that wheel struggled with?

Also I'm not sure about that torque setting in game, the reason I say that is that 3/4 is way too low in some cars where you need 8/9/10 to get any reasonable resistance.

Other cars then for my feeling 5 sits mostly about right in terms of weight and being able to quickly snap to catch any early slip.

My settings other wise are fairly similar but my preference is for a stiffer BRF just because it lets me for my styles drag the brake with a little less fidelity and less panic braking lock ups.

 

[bliprunner]

@PirovacBoy have you experienced the shaft shudder when really pushing on deep at the apex? I'm DD Pro so it may well be just something that wheel struggled with?

Also I'm not sure about that torque setting in game, the reason I say that is that 3/4 is way too low in some cars where you need 8/9/10 to get any reasonable resistance.

Other cars then for my feeling 5 sits mostly about right in terms of weight and being able to quickly snap to catch any early slip.

My settings other wise are fairly similar but my preference is for a stiffer BRF just because it lets me for my styles drag the brake with a little less fidelity and less panic braking lock ups.

Shudder was highlighted by Jordan in the latest GTP video on the homepage, he didn’t sound very happy about it.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Will go watch, I rarely hit the homepage to be honest

Shudder was highlighted by Jordan in the latest GTP video on the homepage, he didn’t sound very happy about it.

Edit:

Just watched the video and a few things jump out and these are not criticising anyone just a view on their opinions and perspective and I am not right just offering opinion.

Jordan really got to the point with the high frequency feedback, and definitely isn't a fan and especially when pushing at the sharper end of pace this feedback isn't fun.

Generally while I know I'm not alone I don't find this specific aspect of the feedback in the wheel very enjoyable, I also and again horses for courses pace is relative to everyone and everything that that the commentary team is not representative of the audience that feels the changes the most.

That is not a slight or any sort of criticism just I really don't have time for engine swaps or tunes when I'm racing BoP daily races where arguably the changes have the most impact and the competition is a lot more than smashing the AI time wise a bit.

Where the physics makes the most impact is when you are racing humans using the same thing trying as hard as you, the rest is just how much faster can you catch the rabbit :/

Edit: added "not"

 

[sonnyboychris]

Here's the issue with that. The PS5 comes with a controller, so that's what millions upon millions of people play with.

A good wheel and rig will cost a lot of money. I tried the last Assetto Corsa with the controller and it was unplayable. Can you imagine removing the steering wheel from a racing car and driving it with a controller in real life?

I am of the opinion that Gran Turismo and the term "more realistic" should always have a cautious relationship. If more realism makes the game better, great. If more realism makes the game unplayable for the vast majority of people, then I suggest the minority go play another game.

Controller users should not be left behind for the very reason you stated.

But I feel like PD could make a game that caters to both. Hell, they have done that already with all these physics updates. The pendulum swings from one side to another, it's clear that they're trying to find a happy median but I think it's impossible.

I always get a ton of hate when I suggest this but they could split the game in two. Have one mode where the physics are approachable and a more sim like mode where they're ramped up a notch.

 

[gtdrift]

TGT2 wheel user here on PS4 pro

Pre JAN'25 update settings
Controller sensitivity: 5
FFB Torque: 5
FFB Sensitivity: 5
Controller Vibration : 85

Post-update settings
Controller sensitivity: 5
FFB Torque: 5
FFB Sensitivity: Immediately lowered to 3 (due to the extra dampener effect of this update which was drowning out the other more subtle effects)
Controller Vibration : 85

I predominantly hot lap with road cars with using (CS)(SH) / No TC / Weak ABS / Tyre wear rate 1 / Events settings off track(real)

Overall, imo the FFB and physics have improved since the last update during wich I felt they had muted some of the behaviours to suit pad players.They have struck the right balance this time. I am enjoying hotlapping again, managing the different personaility of each car and its attributes.

• The sensation of grip whilst leaning on the cars suspension through corners has increased
• if pre corner entry speed is not managed you will be punished by understeer, thats said, the extra rattlling signal that accompanies the understeer has strengthed. Turn down the vibration setting a couple of notches.
• Graunular Road effects seem to have weakened and some of the kerb effects have been adjusted(depending on what angle and speed you drive over/into them)
• Other: The quality/depth/of the car sound in replays has been fine tuned, gear shifts sound effects in cockpit view (esp, the 430 scuderia is vastly improved) and car interior surfaces/textures have seen a visual improvement too.

Enjoy!

 

[Wannablackbee]

Controller users should not be left behind for the very reason you stated.

But I feel like PD could make a game that caters to both. Hell, they have done that already with all these physics updates. The pendulum swings from one side to another, it's clear that they're trying to find a happy median but I think it's impassible.

I always get a ton of hate when I suggest this but they could split the game in two. Have one mode where the physics are approachable and a more sim like mode where they're ramped up a notch.

I think exactly the same.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Controller users should not be left behind for the very reason you stated.

But I feel like PD could make a game that caters to both. Hell, they have done that already with all these physics updates. The pendulum swings from one side to another, it's clear that they're trying to find a happy median but I think it's impassible.

I always get a ton of hate when I suggest this but they could split the game in two. Have one mode where the physics are approachable and a more sim like mode where they're ramped up a notch.

I think exactly the same.

But what benefit is there to them in doing this? What benefit is there to the player base?

There's already a split between the PS4 and PS5. I play on both systems and the player pool for dailies is different. So, a split is not good for players/participation.

Also "splitting the game in two" is double the support necessary to ship a game. Double the marketing, double the testing, etc, etc, etc. For what purpose? So that the people that wanted "more realism" can complain they don't have enough realism, but on a different code branch? Because that's exactly what will happen.

Not to mention, and I know this for a fact, many in the "more realism" crowd have never even seen a track in real life, and therefore are comparing to an imaginary concept of realism, rather than real world experience.

You know why I play GT so much (and I have my complaints)? It's because all the others are garbage IMHO. There's plenty that offer "more realism", but GT gives me enough.

 

[Wannablackbee]

But what benefit is there to them in doing this? What benefit is there to the player base?

There's already a split between the PS4 and PS5. I play on both systems and the player pool for dailies is different. So, a split is not good for players/participation.

Also "splitting the game in two" is double the support necessary to ship a game. Double the marketing, double the testing, etc, etc, etc. For what purpose? So that the people that wanted "more realism" can complain they don't have enough realism, but on a different code branch? Because that's exactly what will happen.

Not to mention, and I know this for a fact, many in the "more realism" crowd have never even seen a track in real life, and therefore are comparing to an imaginary concept of realism, rather than real world experience.

You know why I play GT so much (and I have my complaints)? It's because all the others are garbage IMHO. There's plenty that offer "more realism", but GT gives me enough.

I totally understand your point of view. Through my rose-colored glasses, I did not think it could divide the players. Being a GT player since the beginning, I saw the players growing with the Franchise and always thought it was intended by Polyphony. In terms of driver skills, the game is already taking us to another level at every iteration. I think we are better drivers now then when we were playing older GT titles. So we clearly can evolve as drivers from the next GT and the main cause would be that newer sophisticated physics models can only train us to become better. There is the benefit. You not only get to have fun with the game you like but you also get to grow as an individual by getting better driving skills.

At this point, GT7 already is two games in one. If you play it with all the assists, it is a completely different game than if you disable them all. And the good thing is You can do whatever you want. You can play with a controller or a wheel and you can select those assists individually. Setting the game to your own preferences so you can serve the fun craving part of your inner self.

It already is a great game! I just really want it to be better for everybody, really.

 

[PirovacBoy]

have you experienced the shaft shudder when really pushing on deep at the apex?

Yes I have felt it and to be honest it's a good thing imo.
Not the shudder itself which feels harsh and unpleasant but this effect is not an on/off switch.
It's the result of having lost tire grip and it simulates the tires skidding.
Keep in mind though, that this effect builds up the closer you get to the point of loosing grip.
If you pay attention to what your Wheelbase is communicating this effect simulates tire slip and has a very wide range and you actually should have noticed it long before it happened.

3/4 is way too low in some cars where you need 8/9/10 to get any reasonable resistance.

On the DD+ in high Torque Mode, 4 in combination with 9 for Sensitivity is perfect for ALL cars.
It's the sweet spot and optimal balance between Firmness and detail.
In low Torque mode though, I use 7/9 to get an almost identical feel as in high Torque mode.
GT7 perfectly simulates forces across all cars and their real world behaviors for the Wheel Force, so it's absolutely normal that a light car with very low mechanical as well as aerodynamical grip will feel different to a heavier car with high downforce and lots of mechanical grip.
Tires correlate to mechanical grip, whereas aerodynamical grip builds up the faster you go.
So the combination of both of these factors will decide how the Torque Forces will be communicated.

for my styles drag the brake with a little less fidelity and less panic braking lock ups.

This is absolutely personal preference, yet, I highly recommend you and actually everyone to switch to no ABS.
This is a huge and deciding factor to actually understand how a car behaves under braking and weight shift.
Once you have mastered the braking technique without using ABS, it will be an eye opener as well as everything I mentioned before will start to make sense.
You get so much more linearity and feel for what the car is telling you under deceleration and weight transfer.
With ABS activated, you will never truly understand what's going on and therefore lock Ups, masked by ABS interference, will be the result.
No ABS will change everything you thought you knew about driving dynamics in GT7.
It will transform your driving habits as a whole and as the ultimate result make you a more refined and complete driver.

 

[Scaff]

It's the result of having lost tire grip and it simulates the tires skidding.
Keep in mind though, that this effect builds up the closer you get to the point of loosing grip.
If you pay attention to what your Wheelbase is communicating this effect simulates tire slip and has a very wide range and you actually should have noticed it long before it happened.

That's not how the build-up to tyre slip works.

Tyre skip happens after self-aligning torque has passed the maximum slip angle for grip, not before.

 

[PirovacBoy]

That's not how the build-up to tyre slip works.

Tyre skip happens after self-aligning torque has passed the maximum slip angle for grip, not before.

I might have used the wrong word, skip slip skid, all these esses, bit confusing to me sorry.
But I think that my point still makes sense though.
Tire Grip reduction or the gradual loss of it is what this effect is simulating.

Tire slip though is communicated too.
It differs though and doesn't induce this shudder effect.
I notice it when cornering under heavy load and suddenly the Wheel gets really light very quick.
It happens more on FR then on FF cars and I think I haven't noticed it yet on AWD cars.
Same goes for rear wheel grip loss under acceleration.
The spinning rear tires let the Wheel become lighter.
On FF cars the grip loss under acceleration produces some vibration and a subtle wheelrim stutter which also ranges from a mild buzz/hum all the way to a very strong stutter.
AWD also produce a very nice FFB effect on grip loss which is felt more central based.
Actually GT7 simulates the grip loss area pretty damn informative and precise in correlation to the exact position and drive train layout.
Every individual Drive Train has a different FFB feeling for both grip as well as tire slip.

 

[Kriptical]

That's not how the build-up to tyre slip works.

Tyre skip happens after self-aligning torque has passed the maximum slip angle for grip, not before.

Hmm.

First you feel the treads bending and beginning to tear, then there is a slip into slide as the treads begin to be overwhelmed, then chatter which builds quickly or slower, according to angle and rate of speed. Reacquisition happens similarly except in reverse.

I may know squat about race cars. But i used to have a mile long shared driveway into a 1/3mile hard packed dirt driveway which i gunned it up hitting almost 50 before hard braking into a slide ending my ‘parking spot.’ Did this pretty much every day for about a decade.

The braps feel pretty accurate. Maybe a little weak, all things considered. Especially for asphalt. But its a game and its certainly close enough.

Ps: i swear abs off has the best braking snd car feel ffb in game. Abs off and auto trans is my preferred way to explore ffb and tune wheels/be judgy.

 

[PirovacBoy]

First you feel the treads bending and beginning to tear, then there is a slip into slide as the treads begin to be overwhelmed, then chatter which builds quickly or slower, according to angle and rate of speed. Reacquisition happens similarly except in reverse.

This is EXACTLY what I feel too.
Perfect explanation and very much on point. Each phase of the tire is communicated differently FFB wise and therefore very informative and precise.

i gunned it up hitting almost 50 before hard braking into a slide ending my ‘parking spot.’ Did this pretty much every day for about a decade.

Your local car mechanic must have been a pretty familiar face to you, thanks to your assumingly quite often visits for car wishbone and tire maintenance 😁👍

i swear abs off has the best braking snd car feel ffb in game.

This EXACTLY.
Especially if anything to add to this is the satisfying feel to be able to finally differentiate between tire grip loss because of exceeding friction AND on the other hand a blocking or not rotating tire, all of this feeling WHICH tire exactly.
The sheer amount of FFB fidelity and how all these effects corelate and blend in together are a revelation once it has clicked.
It's all there we just have to be attentive and pay attention to what is being communicated.
To some it's just Vibration, to me it's a sweet symphony of all sorts of humming, buzzing, shaking, stuttering, knocking, thumping, rustling, vibrating etc.

 

[sonnyboychris]

What benefit is there to the player base?

For starters, you wouldn't be in here complaining (self described) about not liking the direction of the game...

As another poster pointed out, the game already has multiple difficulty settings and additional ways to manipulate difficulty via TCS and stability management systems...

This EXACTLY.
Especially if anything to add to this is the satisfying feel to be able to finally differentiate between tire grip loss because of exceeding friction AND on the other hand a blocking or not rotating tire, all of this feeling WHICH tire exactly.
The sheer amount of FFB fidelity and how all these effects corelate and blend in together are a revelation once it has clicked.
It's all there we just have to be attentive and pay attention to what is being communicated.
To some it's just Vibration, to me it's a sweet symphony of all sorts of humming, buzzing, shaking, stuttering, knocking, thumping, rustling, vibrating etc.

You two have me wondering what I have it set to... I have to agree with you both in that the FFB def took a step forward.

 

[Scaff]

Hmm.

First you feel the treads bending and beginning to tear,

Which is felt as an increase in self-aligning torque, which translates into increased weight in the steering.

then there is a slip into slide as the treads begin to be overwhelmed,

This is two stages, slip occurs before sliding (if we are defining that as exceeding peak grip). With peak grip generated at between 4 and 10 degrees of slip (depending on the tyre, suspension, etc.), and at this stage self-aligning torque will have reduced (as the contact patch that had been deforming starts to return to it's normal shape - note this is not tyre-skip or slide) and this translates to a decrease in steering weight.

Once the limit of slip has been exceeded, you will have significantly decreased grip, and significantly decreased steering weight (as the contact patch is no longer deformed so its not trying to self-align), the tyre is now both rotating and being pushed 'sideways' (well actually at whatever slip angle it's at - and this will be increasing rapidly if you don't do anything) across the surface. The sheer forces from this 'sideways' travel are the front tyres sliding and cause tyre-skip (note the tyre is still deformed, but not in a manner that provides grip and therefore steering weight).

then chatter which builds quickly or slower, according to angle and rate of speed.

It does, once the limit of slip has been exceeded, not before; before this point it's communicated by the changes in self-aligning torque and the resulting impact on steering weight.

Reacquisition happens similarly except in reverse.

Nope, once the contact patch deforms and passes the point of slip limit it can't reverse that path, rather the process starts again. The slip angle needs to reduce to a level that the tyre can regain grip, allowing the process to start again.

I may know squat about race cars. But i used to have a mile long shared driveway into a 1/3mile hard packed dirt driveway which i gunned it up hitting almost 50 before hard braking into a slide ending my ‘parking spot.’ Did this pretty much every day for about a decade.

Unless you're doing something weird, that would be your rear tyres, and what we feel through the steering in this regard would be the front tyres and relate to understeer, not oversteer.

I've experienced the above many times, in both road and race cars, and either GT is right, and every other sim and reality is wrong; or this is an issue with GT's FFB model (and I know which my money is on).

This video does a good job of explaining it in basic terms.

 

[sonnyboychris]

I've experienced the above many times, in both road and race cars, and either GT is right, and every other sim and reality is wrong; or this is an issue with GT's FFB model (and I know which my money is on).

I'm really enjoying this discussion between the three of you and I appreciate the embedded YT link. This is a bit of an vague question but do you have any thoughts as to why GT is deciding to go against the grain here?

 

[JDMKING13]

Yes I have felt it and to be honest it's a good thing imo.
Not the shudder itself which feels harsh and unpleasant but this effect is not an on/off switch.
It's the result of having lost tire grip and it simulates the tires skidding.
Keep in mind though, that this effect builds up the closer you get to the point of loosing grip.
If you pay attention to what your Wheelbase is communicating this effect simulates tire slip and has a very wide range and you actually should have noticed it long before it happened.


On the DD+ in high Torque Mode, 4 in combination with 9 for Sensitivity is perfect for ALL cars.
It's the sweet spot and optimal balance between Firmness and detail.
In low Torque mode though, I use 7/9 to get an almost identical feel as in high Torque mode.
GT7 perfectly simulates forces across all cars and their real world behaviors for the Wheel Force, so it's absolutely normal that a light car with very low mechanical as well as aerodynamical grip will feel different to a heavier car with high downforce and lots of mechanical grip.
Tires correlate to mechanical grip, whereas aerodynamical grip builds up the faster you go.
So the combination of both of these factors will decide how the Torque Forces will be communicated.


This is absolutely personal preference, yet, I highly recommend you and actually everyone to switch to no ABS.
This is a huge and deciding factor to actually understand how a car behaves under braking and weight shift.
Once you have mastered the braking technique without using ABS, it will be an eye opener as well as everything I mentioned before will start to make sense.
You get so much more linearity and feel for what the car is telling you under deceleration and weight transfer.
With ABS activated, you will never truly understand what's going on and therefore lock Ups, masked by ABS interference, will be the result.
No ABS will change everything you thought you knew about driving dynamics in GT7.
It will transform your driving habits as a whole and as the ultimate result make you a more refined and complete driver.

Man you are crazy spot on.. granted I could understand why some would find the vibrations annoying.. but for me I like it a lot let’s me know how much grip/tire angle I have at my disposal… and it in stages just as you said. As a person who drives with a lot of CH CM CS tires… to feel the different stages of grip each tire provides is crazy and wasn’t expect. I drive many cars in which people would use SH tires.. I would use CM tire. The Ferrari F430 I use with CM in stock form is crazy fun with the new physics engine. I have been really enjoying the driving and I won’t even talk about how good the cars feel in VR that’s a whole different experience.

 

[Scaff]

I'm really enjoying this discussion between the three of you and I appreciate the embedded YT link. This is a bit of an vague question but do you have any thoughts as to why GT is deciding to go against the grain here?

Overall I have always felt that GT (as it's been around for a few titles now) does it for accessibility reasons, making the onset of understeer very clear to the player, as unless it's something you've experienced in reality, the reduction of steering weight at the start of understeer can feel quite odd.

 

[sonnyboychris]

Overall I have always felt that GT (as it's been around for a few titles now) does it for accessibility reasons, making the onset of understeer very clear to the player, as unless it's something you've experienced in reality, the reduction of steering weight at the start of understeer can feel quite odd.

Understood, ty for explanation.

 

[NevilleNobody]

So other than the horrible shaft shudder on the DD Pro, the actual behaviour of the car seems to be to my liking. I am using MT for the first time yesterday so getting used to it, so I ran the Sardengna 15 lapper and the Bathurst 10 lapper and the cars felt pretty good. I still feel like I need TC2 in races but can qualify with TC1 i reakon. They just feel a little smoother all round, more predictable.

 

[ZevZoq]

Overall I have always felt that GT (as it's been around for a few titles now) does it for accessibility reasons, making the onset of understeer very clear to the player, as unless it's something you've experienced in reality, the reduction of steering weight at the start of understeer can feel quite odd.

I just don't feel any sort of canned vibration effect on understeer (G29 wheel). I mean I occasionally feel some vibration, but it always feels like it's related to tire scrub or road bumps while sliding. I don't feel anything that always happens just before understeer that says "you're about to understeer."

 

[NevilleNobody]

I just don't feel any sort of canned vibration effect on understeer (G29 wheel). I mean I occasionally feel some vibration, but it always feels like it's related to tire scrub or road bumps while sliding. I don't feel anything that always happens just before understeer that says "you're about to understeer."

It seems to be on the Fanatec wheels. Before this update the wheel went light upon understeer, it was actually the best thing about the FFB, they've replaced that with extremely harsh shaft shudder.

 

[newmedia_dev]

With the shaft shake thing ignoring the nuance of feel and grip limits, steering weight and noise.

We are talking shake that is strong enough to rattle the internals of the wheel base and wheel. We are talking deliberately controlled over rotation for a fraction to timed to accelerating where I'm very much wanting the characteristics of very slight slip at the front to give a slightly better line to wind off steering angle. It is an overkill in how the FFB over amplifies this behaviour and whilst I get for gameplay reasons doesn't make it any less jarring or worrying.

It's more pronounced in the Gr3 cars I think because of the weight and forces are greater. I'm not the fastest guy on the planet but for dailies I can usually land in the top 500-750 which is fairly competitive and have some degree of understanding my inputs and the games outputs quite well.

If I get round to it I'll record a clip and post it.

 

[sonnyboychris]

If I get round to it I'll record a clip and post it.

I'd love to see it because I haven't noticed anything worrying on my DD Pro.

 

[PirovacBoy]

do you have any thoughts as to why GT is deciding to go against the grain here?

Going against the grain to use your term doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't lead to the same results.
It's just a different approach.
I assume it's doing it the way it does because GT doesn't try to simulate every single real world physics calculation with the precision of a master degree.
Because at the end of the day, when we drive our dailies in a sporty manner, let alone the handfull of people who truly experienced driving a track spec or full blown race car, I guarantee you that NONE of them starts to calculate by how much degree the front left tires' slip angle is or is going to be when exceeding certain threshold values or whatever else.
They drive their cars intuitively and focus on the Feedback their senses are being fed with.
Visually, acoustically and most of all haptically.
Many years ago I once mentioned my so called triangle of sensoric feedback and lately being in a short discussion with @Scaff I also mentioned it.
THAT is what it's meant to be.
THAT is what GT does and why it does it the way it does do it.
Because the beauty in driving a car in a fast manner lies in it's simplicity.

As a person who drives with a lot of CH CM CS tires… to feel the different stages of grip each tire provides

Absolutely agree.
Same as you, I also absolutely adore the Comfort Tires in GT7.
Hards and Mediums are my favorite ones.
Actually I think that all tires ranging from Comforts to Sport but let's not forget racing rubbers, provide a very unique and satisfying feedback.
Depending on your driving style as well as every ones individual driving skills or driving technique, we will all definitely find our favorite composition.
But I agree that the lesser or less stickier and less mechanical grip providing the tire is, the more you learn and understand the underlying limitations.
Be it limited friction or limited regain of grip and low lateral force handling characteristics, these are the optimal type of tires to understand the fundamentals of driving and importance of smoothness and picking the less friction causing driving line.

people would use SH tires.. I would use CM tire

Haha and again same here.
My personal preference are Comfort Hards at the front and mediums to the rear, or medium front and soft at the rear.
This in combination with anything up to 600pp road/sport cars with no ABS around the infamous Nordschleife is the closest I've been able to replicate my own real world driving experiences.
This is how it feels to me.
This exactly.

Overall I have always felt that GT (as it's been around for a few titles now) does it for accessibility reasons

Agree on this.
Yet if you start digging deeper, there is much more to be found underneath its perfectly accessible shaped skin.

 

[Scaff]

Agree on this.
Yet if you start digging deeper, there is much more to be found underneath its perfectly accessible shaped skin.

I agree, GT does a lot well. Is it a cutting-edge driving/racing sim? Nope, but nothing is (however some do get closer), and GT does an overall fine job for what is an accessible mainstream title.

 

[sonnyboychris]

I assume it's doing it the way it does because GT doesn't try to simulate every single real world physics calculation with the precision of a master degree.

I'm happy that you took the time to respond. As an individual who is more knowledgeable on the subject than I am, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.