Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital
- Thread starter Magog
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- VBD
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It's not a Sophy problem though to be fair. The AI is using the limits the game allows them, being faster when deciding to drive through the grass isn't a failure of the AI, it's a failure of the games definition of track limits (and grass physics).
A player could do the same thing and get away with it if they find a line like that, as we see with Maggiore quite often where its consistently faster to cut through all the corners.
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- SpacedustDaddy
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Personally I wish they would stop showing nonsense like this. I’m actually not impressed by it at all. What’s the point? Just to show much your product can be exploited? To show the world how much of a failure GT is at being a “real” driving simulator, because obviously you cannot drive like that in real life and hope to survive? I mean driving almost completely off the track or running over kerbs that normally shouldn’t be run over with no real repercussions/consequences? Seriously?
I sometimes question the way some top GT players exploit the game to set top times already, so I don’t think there’s a need for some senseless AI to take it up another notch. I would be more impressed if they demo AI that can actually race like humans rather than just doing some unrealistic time trial runs.
I sometimes question the way some top GT players exploit the game to set top times already, so I don’t think there’s a need for some senseless AI to take it up another notch. I would be more impressed if they demo AI that can actually race like humans rather than just doing some unrealistic time trial runs.
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- SpacedustDaddy
I thought the same. No more last to first on Lap 1.
Edit: It wouldn’t surprise me if there are some elements PD learned from working with the Sophy people. Since the Boost system been in the game, maybe it’s been improved. A race like below, without Boost, I’d have been in P1 early on. Not so, when Boost is used.
PD just need to set default AI to this setting. I believe they can do that much.
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Boost is still a band-aid.
The game is allowing cars to go faster than they actually are to keep up with you. It might produce better racing but it's not fair competition and I doubt it's anything to do with Sophy. Sophy is about exploiting the physics system as much as possible to drive as fast as possible, but the car isn't artificially boosted or slowed.
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- SpacedustDaddy
Not that it has to do with Sophy. I’m saying maybe PD learned something from the development of Sophy. In the video I posted, AI cars are doing the riding on the grass like in the Sophy video. Can’t recall the cars doing that with the Boost Function Off.
The boost function been in previous games. How far back, I can’t recall. I do remember being in a GTSPORT “Daily Races with Friends”, at one of the Rally tracks. It was a leap frog system. Which, probably is the basics of it.
The point is, PD don’t even have to label it as Boost. The rubberband is already built in. I guess this would be like a resistance band.
The boost function been in previous games. How far back, I can’t recall. I do remember being in a GTSPORT “Daily Races with Friends”, at one of the Rally tracks. It was a leap frog system. Which, probably is the basics of it.
The point is, PD don’t even have to label it as Boost. The rubberband is already built in. I guess this would be like a resistance band.
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- GTP_Jordan
- GTP_Jordan
This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:
Gran Turismo Sophy AI Defeats Lewis Hamilton’s Nurburgring Lap Time by 17 Seconds
It has been a while since we last heard about Gran Turismo Sophy, the cutting-edge artificial intelligence system developed by Polyphony Digital in collaboration with Sony AI, but it’s back with a vengeance and faster than ever...
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- Silhouette Drops
But will Sophy jack the front end a good two feet and lower the rear end two feet to get around the PP system? 
I don't see anything so exciting about the Sophy program. What's so interesting? It is software that improves its lap by lap time that a human can never beat. I don't see Sophy's usefulness, the time and money spent by the developers would have been much more useful in designing a decent penalty system. The penalties of GT7 have worsened compared to GT sport, how can they organize a credible professional world championship with such a penalty system?
Quakebass
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- quakebass
I just hope it starts to trickle into something we can use near-term, even if just in the form of small improvements.
I really shouldn’t be on the hardest difficulty and playing a game of 4D chess trying to figure out how yo nerf myself just enough to make a race fun.
I used a sub-200 hp Corolla to beat WTC600 against super cars, a Beetle and Mk1 Golf to beat Schwartzwald League against top line German sports and supercars, a 30 year old Silvia to beat modern GT4 cars in WTC700, and a Jaguar F Type road car 50pp under the threshold to easily beat GT3 cars in the final championship.
I really shouldn’t be on the hardest difficulty and playing a game of 4D chess trying to figure out how yo nerf myself just enough to make a race fun.
I used a sub-200 hp Corolla to beat WTC600 against super cars, a Beetle and Mk1 Golf to beat Schwartzwald League against top line German sports and supercars, a 30 year old Silvia to beat modern GT4 cars in WTC700, and a Jaguar F Type road car 50pp under the threshold to easily beat GT3 cars in the final championship.
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- Mightylieven
Exactly. This whole thing shows the weaknesses of the simulation. If you go on the grass like that, first no way at those speeds you can keep that amount of grip but also it should have an effect on your grip in the next corners. And at that kind of speed hitting the kerbs like this there should be no way of keeping control of the car. it is an interesting way of learning how to exploit the system. Or for PD an interesting way to see flaws in their product.
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- Bielefeld
- tarnheld
It's telling that they don't show the steering and brake/throttle inputs of Sophy in this TT replay. I guess it's all over the place.
I wish they'd rather show off the AI behaving like a human racing driver. So far it's plain to see that this is more 'artificial' than 'intelligent' racing. In the RACE TOGETHER videos where the Sophys were racing humans and each other you could clearly see artifical behavior, leaning towards reckless driving. Most of the moves of the AI would be sanctioned with proper stewardship.
I'd want to see a showcase where it's hard to tell if it's a human or an AI driver. And a demonstration of fair driving, where the AI recognizes a bad move and concedes by itself.
I wish they'd rather show off the AI behaving like a human racing driver. So far it's plain to see that this is more 'artificial' than 'intelligent' racing. In the RACE TOGETHER videos where the Sophys were racing humans and each other you could clearly see artifical behavior, leaning towards reckless driving. Most of the moves of the AI would be sanctioned with proper stewardship.
I'd want to see a showcase where it's hard to tell if it's a human or an AI driver. And a demonstration of fair driving, where the AI recognizes a bad move and concedes by itself.
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I think their roadmap lays around Sophy being added to aid the single player aspect of the game and future games. the current ai is terrible and probably why they use the 'catch the rabbit' races. The video shows a demonstration of what is calculated to be possible by an ai program, but will be 'toned down' for when it comes to gran turismo.
They have found that racing against this type of learning ai to be more natural like racing human players. The scaling will also be there to accommodate everyone's skill level, they wont just put the full bells and whistles in and call it a day.
The online is unfortunately in a weird situation, a lot of players still have not even bothered to complete their first sport race (less than 16% total playerbase iirc) and thus the base game could take a higher priority from that point of view. Not to mention different teams work on different parts of the game. The people working hard for Sophy have squat to do with the balance of online or the penalty system.
Sophy's next part to be developed will be making it match everyone's level of driving and to throw in some 'human-like' mistakes such as braking too late into corners etc. At least that's what I want to see progress on.
Another positive spin is that by everyone still complaining about the penalty system, they'll eventually take a hint and it'll be addressed in the future.
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Putting half the car on the grass is/was already used by drivers in time trial on GT Sport for some corners at the Nordschleife (and occasionally elsewhere too). At Flugplatz for example, you can gain a few km/h down the long flat-out section by partly going onto the grass on the left before turning right, as it opens up the angle of the corner allowing higher apex speed. Doing it consistently in race trim, with fuel and tyre wear and possibly a slipstream, was always risky though.
I suppose the silver lining is that PD should be able to use this technology to refine track limits in future (keeping in mind this was done on GT Sport... I'm not sure if the grass physics are exactly the same on GT7).
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- Meggido12
Merely because some players do like the offline side of the game and don't want to race against rubish a.i. or carch the rabbit formats.
I'm definitely not so fast in this game that I need elite a.i. that can't be beaten. I don't think anyone needs SOPHY to be unbeatable. This just seems like a flex. But rather to make a.i. more competitive. To gauge that, some people agree that at it's maximum difficulty setting a.i
Should be nearly or equally as fast as the top players. That's really all it has to do imo.
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- MK-Kraken
No comments on video, of course. Wonder what the dislike ratio is.
I don't really car about a "program ai to win at max speed" mechanics, I'd rather have content, gameplay, and the removal of loot boxes so I get engine swaps or cars directly from an in game shop with actual in game free currency.
I don't really car about a "program ai to win at max speed" mechanics, I'd rather have content, gameplay, and the removal of loot boxes so I get engine swaps or cars directly from an in game shop with actual in game free currency.
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- LilBigHulk
This is like what stockfish is for chess.
stockfish is used all the time by top chess players to see outside the box on how they can improve their own game.
this can be the same. Yes the tracklimits need work but thats not the AI fault. It’s the tracklimits Polyphony need to fix.
People can look at this as ways to improve their own lap times. we do it all the time with the worlds best players ghost.. so we can probably use this too.
stockfish is used all the time by top chess players to see outside the box on how they can improve their own game.
this can be the same. Yes the tracklimits need work but thats not the AI fault. It’s the tracklimits Polyphony need to fix.
People can look at this as ways to improve their own lap times. we do it all the time with the worlds best players ghost.. so we can probably use this too.
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