Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

[Pedinhuh]

And many, many more. It also seems to be deliberately putting the outside rear wheel onto the grass on corner entry to help it turn in.

Pretty brilliant way of inducing oversteer on entry, now of course this is really only possible to be done in a videogame, which is immersion-breaking, which isn't exactly something "The Real Driving Simulator" would be proud of showing.

 

[Samus]

It's been a flaw of GT physics for some time. Back as far as GT5 people were using the handbrake to turn the car in and it was always fastest. In fact don't they disable handbrake these days to negate it? Seems Sophy found a way around it.

Anyway, I still don't expect Sophy in GT7 in any form any time soon. It took them 18 months to add course maker to GT6 and that actually was a preadvertised feature. Sophy isn't, bar a slideshow in a presentation saying how it would be implemented.

 

[Pill Spenser]

cuts corner
0m20s
1m20s

leaves track
2m01s
2m15s
2m19s
3m15s
3m33s
3m45s
3m58s
4m06s
4m15s
4m38s
4m45s

total time penalties, at 5s each
65 seconds

 

[symaski62]

but yes admin

https://ai.sony/blog/blog-019/

Hamilton’s reported lap time in the game is 5:40.622. The best time logged by a Gran Turismo racer, Igor Fraga, is 5:26.682. GT Sophy, trained with the approach described earlier, demonstrated a lap time of 5:22.975, nearly four seconds faster than the best human time and 17 seconds faster than Hamilton.

 

[RACECAR]

I see people are still stuck on a slogan that has been there since the first game. At this point, its on the same level of silly to be complaining about as Red Bull's long time tagline "Red Bull gives you wings".

As for this lap, I tend to agree with the idea that this is simply a fault with PD's Physics and track limits. Lets be honest here: Even if Sophy wasn't doing this, someone else would have. In a ironic twist, Sophy is already like some of the Alien players out there: Getting that speed by exploiting the physics and track limits where possible (something that in fairness, even extends to other games too but its just more painfully obvious in GT).



Perfect example can be found here when Super GT is watching the replay of the fastest player of that daily race at the time. Look at just how much they get away with all that mounting on the Curbing at the first turn (Something I have not seen happen on ANY real onboard qualifying pole lap in the history of Monza).

And then again through the Del La Reggio Chicane:

And of course we can't forget the near infinite Grip strip bug at Driving Park Kyoto, where by having just your left side wheels at just the right angle allows you to carry way more speed on exit. All I'm basically seeing here is a AI being fast by doing ironically what Human players have been doing and essentially just exposing how flawed the physics are for both GT Sport and GT7.

 

[Auditore]

The funniest thing about Sophy is how good at cheating it is,those corner cuts are 10/10,the AI is too good 😂

 

[ShiftingGears]

I don't think this is a good tech demo, seeing chase cam and onboards with inputs would be useful. There's nothing really noteworthy about this lap to gauge besides how much the corners get cut, and that's not a good look.

Again I'd be much more impressed with realistic, lifelike AI. There's only so long they can expect GT players to be impressed by sophy before they start asking where they can race AI in Gran Turismo that isn't unplayably poor

 

[TT92]

This is all we need..... more cheating AI >:-( I still recall doing the Daytona Infield Races against the AI where they all cut the bus stop chicane and when I followed exactly in their wheel tracks I was given a penalty every time :-( Actually even when I cut it less than them I still got pinged.

Just to add my $0.02 that Sophy vid is utter "male bovine excrement!"

All the AI does in every GT game is teach players to cheat, take risks and not give 2 hoots about respecting other competitors. And now PD/Sony is proud(!?) of a faster version? :-(

 

[alexwise]

Incredible AI. People here seem to misunderstand what exactly it does and and how flexible the AI can be.

I'm confused how people don’t realize that it isn’t the AI’s problem the track limits allow you to cut on grass. Rugular players do this all the time. So there’s really no difference there.

Also, the AI can be tweaked as one see fit. Meaning you can program it to stay within the real track limits too. Which solves another common complaint here.

Really, there’s nothing to complaint about.

 

[Samus]

Incredible AI. People here seem to misunderstand what exactly it does and and how flexible the AI can be.

I'm confused how people don’t realize that it isn’t the AI’s problem the track limits allow you to cut on grass. Rugular players do this all the time. So there’s really no difference there.

Also, the AI can be tweaked as one see fit. Meaning you can program it to stay within the real track limits too. Which solves another common complaint here.

Really, there’s nothing to complaint about.

..and what is there to cheer about? This is really no different from a tool assisted speedrun, where people program all the inputs for a game to be absolutely perfect to complete it as fast as inhumanly possible.

That isn't all an AI is about.

 

[alexwise]

..and what is there to cheer about? This is really no different from a tool assisted speedrun, where people program all the inputs for a game to be absolutely perfect to complete it as fast as inhumanly possible.

That isn't all an AI is about.

Exactly. This is why there’s another video where top players race against said AI.

 

[Samus]

Exactly. This is why there’s another video where top players race against said AI.

Yes, and whilst they are again fast, exploiting the track, it doesn't go particularly well in terms of their racecraft. If those Sophy cars were humans they would've been given several penalties.

There are signs of promise in this technology but it's clearly still a LONG way off being the default competitive AI in a GT game.

 

[alexwise]

Yes, and whilst they are again fast, exploiting the track, it doesn't go particularly well in terms of their racecraft. If those Sophy cars were humans they would've been given several penalties.

There are signs of promise in this technology but it's clearly still a LONG way off being the default competitive AI in a GT game.

We’ve already established that, if needed, they can follow real life track limits. Any AI is designed to be programmable, this one is no exception.

In this game, track limits are different than in real life. And pretty much everyone, including non-AI human players, abuse those limits every day without getting penalties. Just check top qualifying times for daily races. It’s a game problem, not an AI problem.

 

[Atwork]

The car would break in two if it was driving like this in reality, and it certainly wouldn't keep this line driving like in this video. AI should stick to the track and not bend physics laws when it pleases.

The Sohpy is working with the games physics and rules. Nothing Sohpy is doing can not be repeated by a player. Now being able to do these things consistently is another story. If all you did was the ring all day long, lap after lap your lap times would come down, she is doing the same. She is able to run through far more passes than a player though without forgetting, getting tired, losing focus. Many people seem to be commenting without watching the other videos, and posts. If you watch them many of the questions are answered there. For instance the questions about usefulness of insanely good AI. This is just an example of the max, and Sophy can be tuned for various levels of challenge. Its all there just read it.

The real question is when, and how well will they integrate this tec into the game. PD has made some comments to the plans, but there is always some difference between plans and execution. That said it is interesting and at some point this should help PD with GT7 or GT games in the future.

 

[jgtc_lover]

Incredible AI. People here seem to misunderstand what exactly it does and and how flexible the AI can be.

I'm confused how people don’t realize that it isn’t the AI’s problem the track limits allow you to cut on grass. Rugular players do this all the time. So there’s really no difference there.

Also, the AI can be tweaked as one see fit. Meaning you can program it to stay within the real track limits too. Which solves another common complaint here.

Really, there’s nothing to complaint about.

I disagree. All they've done is trained an AI to push the limits of the penalty system and physics engine in one video game. Each of these systems are programmed with static predetermined values with little if any "randomness" and that's assuming PD didn't just program these values into the AI to begin with.

I don't see how this demonstrates flexibility at all, it just shows that they can make an AI find the fastest line around a track without triggering the penalty system while adhering to the physics that are programmed into the game, interacting with static values. Changing the track limits only involves the AI relearning a line where it doesn't trigger a penalty, again it's only interacting with a static value.

If you want to demonstrate how flexible the system is, have it interact with something else that can provide some kind of randomness for it to alter its behavior. Put other independent Sophy controlled cars on the track. Take this AI and its data set and see how it performs in Forza. Build an actual car for this AI to control and see how well it can do on a track in real life.

The AI systems that can speedrun Tetris are more impressive than this.

 

[Samus]

We’ve already established that, if needed, they can follow real life track limits. Any AI is designed to be programmable, this one is no exception.

In this game, track limits are different than in real life. And pretty much everyone, including non-ai human players, abuse those limits every day without getting penalties. Just check top qualifying times for daily races. It’s a game problem, not ai problem.

Why are you talking about track limits again? I spoke of their racecraft, i.e. how they interacted with the human drivers. They were quite aggressive and there were several times where they swiped across the player cars, or straight up rammed into them. Their movement in general was also quite erratic, would be unpredictable to drive against.

All of this was after extensive training on thousands of PS4s. As I say, it's still a long way away from consumer usage.

The DART platform had access to over 1,000 PlayStation 4 (PS4) consoles. Each was used to collect data for training GT Sophy or evaluate a trained version. The platform consisted of the necessary computing components (GPUs, CPUs) to interact with a large number of PS4s and support large scale training over an extended period of time.

This was all discussed already back in February/March, look back through the topic.

 

[GTboyz]

I still think custom races AI on Professional Difficulty is the best AI this series can get so far. How PD didn't apply those AI to all the races in this game baffles me. Seeing Sophy cutting grass here and there was repulsive. No way I want that kind of crap.

Again, this is my opinion.

 

[24HuresdeLoL]

One of the only gripes I have with the game, at least how I play it (custom races) is that the rolling starts will always be single-file, except for ovals. There are instances in the Gr.3 cups are doing staggered side-by-side starts, yet I can't put that in myself? IMHO, I think they wont do it in either custom race and/or multiplayer, cause they think it'll cause major chaos and will invite people to immediatly turn the car next to them.

 

[alexwise]

I disagree. All they've done is trained an AI to push the limits of the penalty system and physics engine in one video game. Each of these systems are programmed with static predetermined values with little if any "randomness" and that's assuming PD didn't just program these values into the AI to begin with.

I don't see how this demonstrates flexibility at all, it just shows that they can make an AI find the fastest line around a track without triggering the penalty system while adhering to the physics that are programmed into the game, interacting with static values. Changing the track limits only involves the AI relearning a line where it doesn't trigger a penalty, again it's only interacting with a static value.

If you want to demonstrate how flexible the system is, have it interact with something else that can provide some kind of randomness for it to alter its behavior. Put other independent Sophy controlled cars on the track. Take this AI and its data set and see how it performs in Forza. Build an actual car for this AI to control and see how well it can do on a track in real life.

The AI systems that can speedrun Tetris are more impressive than this.

There’s a video of Sophy racing top GT players. I think that qualifies for randomness, flexibility and interaction.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

It's good that they can program an AI to be the absolute fastest it can be, exploiting clear track limits and game engines.

This however, is pointless. If you add an AI that is literally invincible, no player can ever have fun or win races ever. The AI has to be "more human", make more errors and not have ultra perfect consistency either.

Also, while GT7 is still not anywhere near real SIM level, it's still a lot more realistic than Sport is. The difference in time between my BMW M6 GT3 in GT Sport compared to GT7 is almost 20 seconds...
In GT Sport you could go full throttle almost any mid corner and the car wouldn't spin or oversteer, in GT7, you have to be a lot more gentle, and the grass physics are also far less forgiving.

 

[BirdDog72]

German grass. It's not like real grass, it's a specially engineered carbon fibre composite which exactly replicates the grip levels of asphalt.

 

[eran0004]

The car would break in two if it was driving like this in reality, and it certainly wouldn't keep this line driving like in this video. AI should stick to the track and not bend physics laws when it pleases.

The AI runs with the exact same rules as human players, it doesn’t bend the physics or cheat in any way.

Sure, you couldn’t take those lines in real life, but that’s a flaw with the physics model, not with the AI.

 

[Bojador]

Why they keep training the model without any regard to track limits is beyond me. They will have to train the model again, at least to some extent, if they want to implement it in game.

 

[daan]

Why they keep training the model without any regard to track limits is beyond me. They will have to train the model again, at least to some extent, if they want to implement it in game.

They have trained it within track limits. It's just that those track limits are mad, and it also shows up the inadequacies of the GT engine when you get as much grip on the grass as you do on the tarmac. Try those lines in real life and it would be RIP Sophy.

 

[alexwise]

It's good that they can program an AI to be the absolute fastest it can be, exploiting clear track limits and game engines.

This however, is pointless. If you add an AI that is literally invincible, no player can ever have fun or win races ever. The AI has to be "more human", make more errors and not have ultra perfect consistency either.

Also, while GT7 is still not anywhere near real SIM level, it's still a lot more realistic than Sport is. The difference in time between my BMW M6 GT3 in GT Sport compared to GT7 is almost 20 seconds...
In GT Sport you could go full throttle almost any mid corner and the car wouldn't spin or oversteer, in GT7, you have to be a lot more gentle, and the grass physics are also far less forgiving.

German grass. It's not like real grass, it's a specially engineered carbon fibre composite which exactly replicates the grip levels of asphalt.

Why they keep training the model without any regard to track limits is beyond me. They will have to train the model again, at least to some extent, if they want to implement it in game.

Does anyone hear a even read prior messages? Please look at the conversation literally 3-5 posts before your post.

 

[05XR8]

Does anyone hear a even read prior messages? Please look at the conversation literally 3-5 posts before your post.

If members did that, there‘d really be nothing to talk about.

 

[Tornado]

Valve solved the TF2 Bot Crisis by pushing it onto GT7.

 

[Samus]

Does anyone hear a even read prior messages? Please look at the conversation literally 3-5 posts before your post.

All you keep saying is "they can change the track limits if they want". I think people are aware of that, they're asking why they haven't, the answer to which you don't know. If it'd be so easy to change to drive only on track, why haven't they?

 

[alexwise]

All you keep saying is "they can change the track limits if they want". I think people are aware of that, they're asking why they haven't, the answer to which you don't know. If it'd be so easy to change to drive only on track, why haven't they?

I don’t think people are aware of that. That’s why I keep repeating the same thing over and over.

They haven’t because they implement AI into the game and it drives according to game’s limit.

Changing track limits is most likely beyond the scope of what the AI team is set out to do. Remember, the AI team is not part of Polyphony and very likely do not mess with the game’s code beyond what they need because why would they. It’s up to PD to change track limits for everyone, not just the AI.

 

[Samus]

I don’t think people are aware of that. That’s why I keep repeating the same thing over and over.

They haven’t because they implement AI into the game and it drives according to game’s limit.

Changing track limits is most likely beyond the scope of what the AI team is set out to do. Remember, the AI team is not part of Polyphony and very likely do not mess with the game’s code beyond what they need because why would they. It’s up to PD to change track limits for everyone, not just the AI.

They were given full access to the Gran Turismo API. You're saying they can't simply program the cars to only drive on the tarmac surfaces? Yes the track limits clearly also need fixing by PD, but that's no excuse for this AI to be driving like this, it just looks silly

It shouldn't be beyond them to make it stick to the tarmac at the very least, even if it still finds exploitable tracks doing that. In fact IIRC we did see that with the way it cut across the La Sarthe pit entry for a wider turn in. But at least that is still driving on the black stuff.