Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

[alexwise]

They were given full access to the Gran Turismo API. You're saying they can't simply program the cars to only drive on the tarmac surfaces? Yes the track limits clearly also need fixing by PD, but that's no excuse for this AI to be driving like this, it just looks silly

It shouldn't be beyond them to make it stick to the tarmac at the very least, even if it still finds exploitable tracks doing that. In fact IIRC we did see that with the way it cut across the La Sarthe pit entry for a wider turn in. But at least that is still driving on the black stuff.

But why would they want to program the real track limits now? If they want the AI to compete with pro players and set record time, surely there has to be level playing field as humans can cut across corners and grass the same way right now.

 

[JTB10000]

I think the final product, whenever that will be implemented, won't be driving like this. If PD is using it as teaching tool or whatever, I doubt they'd want new players to think this is an okay way to drive. This is just something to (try to) wow us with its speed.

 

[lancashire lad]

The car would break in two if it was driving like this in reality, and it certainly wouldn't keep this line driving like in this video. AI should stick to the track and not bend physics laws when it pleases.

But why would they want to program the real track limits now? If they want the AI to compete with pro players and set record time, surely there has to be level playing field as humans can cut across corners and grass the same way right now.

Probably because to sophy the track is everything between the barriers, it does not see the colour of the grass as we do. That is the only difference between the track and grass, the colour.

 

[StealthVel]

I thought we all understood that Sophy is currently used to see just how fast AI can get. They said they would dumb it down a bit to make it actually beatable, but right now they're testing the threshold. This video was a showcase of how fast Sophy can be, not how clean it can be. They need to push Sophy to its limits, in order to dumb it down. Not the other way around.
Maybe soon we'll start to see it toned down a bit for competitive racing.

 

[alexwise]

Probably because to sophy the track is everything between the barriers, it does not see the colour of the grass as we do. That is the only difference between the track and grass, the colour.

But you can take same driving line as the AI. In fact, top gt players already do, just check Igor Fraga’s nordschleife record. The difference is that AI drives on the very edge of track limits and does it consistently.

If you wanna be the fastest in the game, you must push to the limits of what the game allows.

 

[Samus]

But why would they want to program the real track limits now? If they want the AI to compete with pro players and set record time, surely there has to be level playing field as humans can cut across corners and grass the same way right now.

Because that is not their ultimate goal. Their goal is to create a system to coach people, to teach them how to be sporting. This is the exact opposite of that, if this was a product now it'd be teaching bad driving habits and bad sportsmanship.

Do you really think this system should be teaching people to drive on the grass, even if it is technically legal? No.

They showed it against the pro players to show how fast it can be but that is not the end goal of the system.

All this video shows is that once again, this system is still a long way from consumer usage.

I thought we all understood that Sophy is currently used to see just how fast AI can get. They said they would dumb it down a bit to make it actually beatable, but right now they're testing the threshold. This video was a showcase of how fast Sophy can be, not how clean it can be. They need to push Sophy to its limits, in order to dumb it down. Not the other way around.
Maybe soon we'll start to see it toned down a bit for competitive racing.

It was already doing that a whole year ago though. Now here we are a year on, it's still doing the same. No sign of any consumer level usage.

Probably because to sophy the track is everything between the barriers, it does not see the colour of the grass as we do. That is the only difference between the track and grass, the colour.

Not in the game it isn't, the surfaces are all defined differently in the code and with full access to the GT API there is no reason they can't teach Sophy to stay on the track.

 

[alexwise]

Because that is not their ultimate goal. Their goal is to create a system to coach people, to teach them how to be sporting. This is the exact opposite of that, if this was a product now it'd be teaching bad driving habits and bad sportsmanship.

Do you really think this system should be teaching people to drive on the grass, even if it is technically legal? No.

They showed it against the pro players to show how fast it can be but that is not the end goal of the system.

All this video shows is that once again, this system is still a long way from consumer usage.


It was already doing that a whole year ago though. Now here we are a year on, it's still doing the same. No sign of any consumer level usage.


Not in the game it isn't, the surfaces are all defined differently in the code and with full access to the GT API there is no reason they can't teach Sophy to stay on the track.

A person above me said it best:

I thought we all understood that Sophy is currently used to see just how fast AI can get. They said they would dumb it down a bit to make it actually beatable, but right now they're testing the threshold. This video was a showcase of how fast Sophy can be, not how clean it can be. They need to push Sophy to its limits, in order to dumb it down. Not the other way around.
Maybe soon we'll start to see it toned down a bit for competitive racing.

It’s not hard to imagine why the AI team is showing us all these videos. I don’t know what else to add, it’s all been discussed several times. Clean race skeptics and track limits believers just have to wait and see until the final version becomes available in gt7.

 

[Samus]

See my reply to him. Those races and laps were a year or more ago. How many more years before they start turning it into the final product?

 

[05XR8]

I can understand the concerns. How many years would it take for Sophy to learn all tracks? Forward, reverse, dry, wet, drying track, pit strategy, racing in traffic, lapping cars, adhering to track limits, banging fenders, observing yellows, calculating irrational behaviour from human players, qualifying, standing starts, rolling starts, tuned cars, stock standard cars, EVs, rally cars & tracks, custom race scenarios,…

 

[FPV MIC]

Because that is not their ultimate goal. Their goal is to create a system to coach people, to teach them how to be sporting. This is the exact opposite of that, if this was a product now it'd be teaching bad driving habits and bad sportsmanship.

Hmmm, according to the article that's only partially right. It's not to teach the player to be sporting, it's a student that will learn sportsmanship from players.

And their goal is not quite what you said either, it's this; “ultimate goal is to create an agent that can give players of all kinds an exciting race experience.”

As Kazunori Yamauchi said in our most recent interview, he intends for Sophy to appear in Gran Turismo 7 “as a teacher that will teach driving to players, a student that will learn sportsmanship from players, and as a friend to race with.” Sony AI’s Peter Wurman confirmed the team’s “ultimate goal is to create an agent that can give players of all kinds an exciting race experience.”

Edit: I'm not sure how that's going to work out given some of the driving standards I've seen

 

[alexwise]

See my reply to him. Those races and laps were a year or more ago. How many more years before they start turning it into the final product?

You should be really asking that question to the Sophy team. Not us

 

[Tornado]

If their goal was only to make the very best AI possible in the constraints of the game they are operating in, I'm afraid they were beaten to the punch by Mortal Kombat II 30 years ago.




I'm not terribly more impressed by AI that drives every single corner like that GT Academy event from a decade ago at the Nurburgring that PD had to reset times on several times than I am if I enter a public lobby in TF2 and am instantly headshot by a sniper bot who was facing the other way when I snuck up on him and shot him in the back. Even GT4's truly horrendous AI could regularly do feats that the player simply could not.

 

[TT92]

But why would they want to program the real track limits now? If they want the AI to compete with pro players and set record time, surely there has to be level playing field as humans can cut across corners and grass the same way right now.

I didn't think this discussion would devolve into an argument about track limits.

Firstly I would have been very impressed IF the AI had been programmed to use the accepted (legal) definition of track limits and kept 2 tyres inside the white line at all times. Having said that, penalties are usually issued where people tend to abuse these regularly. Even in real world scenarios you will see corners with extra tarmac extended to the track limit because that's where cars tend to always end up at that particular place to then solve that problem.

IF PD thinks this example is now the "Gold Standard" for how to play the game then they need to make it a level playing field for humans too, that is, like the driving line we can turn on we now should be able to turn on the "track limit" line so we all know what the AI knows. And so the game will devolve into more of an arcade game than it is already :-(

IF PD/Sony wanted to show off what a marvel this Sophy is then put up against a field of 20 good-great human drivers in their usual race scenario where it chases the rabbit and see how well it gets through traffic. Now that would impress me even more 8IF* it did it cleanly.

I don't care how fast this cheating AI can manipulate the inherent flaws in PD's game, I will be impressed if I can actually race against it cleanly.

I already know in PCARS1+2 and in AC+ACC I can have some quite good races with the AI so it can't really be that hard, can it?

So PD/Sony can teach AI to be fast BUT can they teach it race craft? I just want to see it start rear of field and see it at turn 1 at Monza ;-) Then I will tell you whether they have wasted their time. Then really complicate it, turn proper damage on as in other games and see how many races this thing can win ;-)

 

[ShiftingGears]

See my reply to him. Those races and laps were a year or more ago. How many more years before they start turning it into the final product?

That "sophy as a friend in races" slide looks like the output of 15 minutes of brainstorming more than any serious roadmap or commitment for what they want to do with it.

I think they dont have a clue about how to use Sophy for any practical application.

 

[Samus]

That "sophy as a friend in races" slide looks like the output of 15 minutes of brainstorming more than any serious roadmap or commitment for what they want to do with it.

I think they dont have a clue about how to use Sophy for any practical application.

Well, personally I still don't think we'll see Sophy in GT7 at all. It's not gonna make much sense to add a feature like that 12+ months after the game launched. They'll save the fanfare for GT8.

 

[05XR8]

It's PD, Man. They'll boot up Sophy towards the end of GT7 and retire it when GT8 debuts. Never to be seen again. Then, come up with something else they'll develop, for the next 10 years.

 

[FPV MIC]

It's PD, Man. They'll boot up Sophy towards the end of GT7 and retire it when GT8 debuts. Never to be seen again. Then, come up with something else they'll develop, for the next 10 years.

That's so true I couldn't decide what emoji to use because all but the poo one are appropriate!

 

[klondike]

I would like to install Sophy in my lawnmower

Haha that was really funny

As for Sophie. I don't see the point.

For me its just anotther indicator that this developer has lost it, they are complete out of wack with what their cutomers want. It rather the work on a better exonomy system, more content in game, more options to customise races, better penalty system, implementing PSVR and more. But this is pointless they are always working on something absurd, that is then at some point scrathed completely.

 

[NikNakTobasco]

That "sophy as a friend in races" slide looks like the output of 15 minutes of brainstorming more than any serious roadmap or commitment for what they want to do with it.

I think they dont have a clue about how to use Sophy for any practical application.

You’re just sportspersonshipist!

 

[FerrariF40]

Better put some AI and research in the poor penalty system

 

[PSN:And-War]

AI AI AI AI = Fail

That AI is jsut cheating, if you did a 1 lap challenge/time trial/licence test in game and all 4 wheels were off track you fail or have to restart, and we all know lewis was also coasting in his lap times im sure he can go faster if he wanted to

 

[AttackDickie]

This is absolutely ludicrous.

View attachment 1170787

View attachment 1170788

And many, many more. It also seems to be deliberately putting the outside rear wheel onto the grass on corner entry to help it turn in.

I fail to see how they can possibly be proud of that.

This made me laugh as I switched off PC2 in disgust the other night as the AI were murdering me on a Nordschleife special event and the final straw was being overtaken by a car on the grass lol.

 

[matrix_gt1]

That AI is jsut cheating, if you did a 1 lap challenge/time trial/licence test in game and all 4 wheels were off track you fail or have to restart, and we all know lewis was also coasting in his lap times im sure he can go faster if he wanted to

Everything the AI did in the video was legal to the current track limits. Meaning it currently isn’t cheating and If you were fast enough (impossible) you could replicate this.

 

[MroczMR]

To be honest... this is actually great tool to test track boundries where players can abuse them to cheat. I think PD should take those laps and analyze them at this point of view.

 

[chromatic9]

Awesome

Do they have anything to add to the game though? We seem to have two extremes of AI here.

 

[alexwise]

Everything the AI did in the video was legal to the current track limits. Meaning it currently isn’t cheating and If you were fast enough (impossible) you could replicate this.

Don’t bother, I did several posts trying to explain this, but people are stubborn to no end to understand this.

 

[cjsrt4]

What's so impressive about this video? It's AI doing a hot lap and exploiting crap physics and track boundaries. Isn't Sophy supposed to give the player a realistic challenge by learning the environment? How is it supposed to demonstrate that when it's the only car on the track? Pretty much any game out there can do this video with their standard AI.

 

[Veinz]

What's so impressive about this video? It's AI doing a hot lap and exploiting crap physics and track boundaries. Isn't Sophy supposed to give the player a realistic challenge by learning the environment? How is it supposed to demonstrate that when it's the only car on the track? Pretty much any game out there can do this video with their standard AI.

It’s impressive because I can’t recall any racing game I’ve played that had super fast ai without some kind of boost/hp advantage. This ai learned to do that on it’s own without these things.

Some people here will just never be happy.

 

[cjsrt4]

Where's the onboard telemetry to prove that theory? Most SIM racing games put a cap on how fast and aggressive the AI can be. Where is the proof that it learned how to do this?

Some people here will just never be happy.

I'm sorry I don't pitch a tent in my pants when a video gets posted about an AI hot lap. Look at the videos a year ago about Sophy. It was terrible with real drivers on the track. I would rather see them showing videos improving that, rather than brag about it's own system using exploits to get a fast lap. Considering how bad GT7 still is after 4+ months since release, this video just doesn't do it for me.

 

[Samus]

I impressive because I can’t recall any racing game I’ve played that had super fast ai without some kind of boost/hp advantage. This ai learned to do that on it’s own without these things.

Some people here will just never be happy.

It learned to do that itself after training using a huge array of very expensive hardware for hundreds/thousands of hours. That's why it's not particularly exciting, because it's still a long way from being reality in a regular $70 video game.

If this was just the regular AI programmed to be that fast without any machine learning people might be more excited as that'd mean it'll be easily a available soon but right now it's essentially vaporware.

There is no clear roadmap laid out for how this system becomes reality for a consumer, not just a video on YouTube. It could and is likely years away, with vague decelerations that they want to bring it to the game.