Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

[VuduFOX]

The major difficulty with all machine learning algorithms is obtaining enough high-quality, appropriate data with which to train the model. To the point that synthetic data generation is now a major field of active research.


If only there were some way to test Sophy against thousands, if not millions of real human players of varying ability under controlled conditions.

In theory you could add a feature to the settings allowing PD to use your data to further improve Sophy but on certain conditions i.e. you have to be level ____ to enable said setting option so we don't have bad players screwing with the data Sophy recives.

 

[Saargasm]

In theory you could add a feature to the settings allowing PD to use your data to further improve Sophy but on certain conditions i.e. you have to be level ____ to enable said setting option so we don't have bad players screwing with the data Sophy recives.

I disagree. You’d want data for all levels - and I’d wager the vast 75%+ of players would be considered bad. If there were an internal score metric of some kind, it would better pair the Sophy with the driver skill level. I mean if you’re going to train it against quality drivers, it’ll make the wrong (right for good driver) assumptions about bad drivers.

 

[Famine]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Gran Turismo Sophy Video Series Selected as Tribeca X Awards Finalist​

The Tribeca Festival, one of the largest annual film and entertainment festivals in the world, has selected the Gran Turismo Sophy development series “The Team Behind GT Sophy” as a finalist for the prestigious Tribeca X award...

 

[JerryVance]

They should of got Martin Scorsese to write and direct the Gran Turismo movie with Deniro and Peschi being rival drivers. No context, just a good movie with a killer soundtrack and cinematography.

 

[o000o]

What's the good for just making an AI for getting some trivial rewards without actually making use of it.

 

[Famine]

What's the good for just making an AI for getting some trivial rewards without actually making use of it.

You seem to be judging the end product based on an intermediate stage as if that stage is the end product, without basis.

The "getting some trivial rewards" stage was a limited-time public test with four agents integrated in the game - something which people earlier in the thread swore blind wasn't possible because they saw Sophy being developed using cloud computing and decided the PS5 couldn't handle it, then swore blind wasn't possible because they saw Sophy racing humans on dedicated PC hardware per agent and decided the PS5 couldn't handle it, then swore blind wasn't possible because they saw Sophy racing humans on a PS5 each and decided the PS5 couldn't handle multiple agents, but then happened anyway.

We'll almost certainly see more Sophy integration in GT7 in the future, but right now nobody can say how deep that will go.

 

[Griffith500]

To be fair, the original demonstrations were based on the video feed from the game's renderer - effectively external to the game and requiring a dedicated rendered output per agent.

Clearly the limited demo in GT7 was more akin to traditional AI opponents in that it utilised internal game state data instead.

That was always the only way it was going to work across multiple instances on a single console.


Naturally the machine learning process was never going to take place in real time in the game on our consoles. That doesn't mean the end result won't still display emergent and adaptive behaviours. Just that it will be pre-learned, with the potential to be updated over time as more data is gathered from the wider gamut of players.

I was very pleased to see the demo deployed, knowing full well it was a testbed, and I'm sure that's not the end of the story for GT7.

 

[Famine]

That was always the only way it was going to work across multiple instances on a single console.

Naturally the machine learning process was never going to take place in real time in the game on our consoles.

Which was also pointed out through the thread, but by the people who weren't utterly convinced it'd never happen

The machine-learning stage simply trains the AI. What we see in the game isn't machine-learning AI but AI that has been trained by machine-learning; it does no further learning on our consoles (though it may be used to train the AI further for future updates, as you say).

 

[05XR8]

If Daytona capture data is anything to go by SOPHY made its announcement back in 2019.

 

[Griffith500]

A lot of what was said about machine learning a year ago has been shown to remarkably undersell its immediate and short term potential, across all applications.

There have been some decisive steps forward in pure research regarding how to design, measure and teach these AI forms for interesting and impressive emergent behaviours. Following that, new models, new hardware, new software etc. have vastly improved AI development outside of pure research.

How things like language models and image generation have improved in the last 12 months is pretty mind boggling. Scary, even, for some. Something something singularity...


I guess it stands to reason that on the back of that progress, PD / Sony found some way to translate the image / video based initial versions of Sophy to just as effectively use the internal game state data.

Perhaps machine learning helped them find the optimised data presentation in the first place. Even better, all that original video based work could then be reused for the efficient internal model, so no need to start from scratch with it.

As always we temper our expectations, but AI does look very different now compared to how it did a year ago.

 

[hawkeyez]

They could fix their current AI so it doesn’t act like a magnet as you approach it lol

At times I’ll pull beside one on a straight on the opposite side of the track of where I actually need to be for the next corner and “bump” the AI just moved into me. If PD had a much better radar system maybe I could avoid them more easily?

They could also program it to not brake mid corner to move to the inside to block you.

I swear the current AI is on a predetermined path but programmed to try and block at any chance they get. Not full block, but half you car width block. Maybe that’s expected from any real drivers and I just don’t do that. I find it annoying so when I take a corner, I try my best to hold the line I’m taking if we are fairly close to each other, if I’m ahead I’m taking the apex and I WILL NOT slow down to keep the inside of the corner.

Sophy seemed better so I’m not sure why they can’t just introduce it into the game already, unless Sophy was just better programmed AI on a predetermined path? Whatever it is, the current AI… each has its route it takes and it’s magnetized to our cars. I have proof in a video the AI went out of its way to try and run me off the road. I can’t program but I could sure tell whoever did programming with this AI “yeah that right there, don’t make it do that!” Lol

 

[Jordan]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

What’s Next for Gran Turismo Sophy? Exclusive Interview with Dr. Peter Wurman of Sony AI​

It has been a while since we’ve heard anything about Gran Turismo Sophy, the all-new artificial intelligence system developed by Sony AI in collaboration with Polyphony Digital. After making its debut as part of a limited-time “Race Together” special event in Gran Turismo 7 update 1.29 back in March, the Sony AI team has been quietly evaluating all of the data they collected and figuring out how to make the new agent better...

 

[pornomazinger]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

What’s Next for Gran Turismo Sophy? Exclusive Interview with Dr. Peter Wurman of Sony AI​

It has been a while since we’ve heard anything about Gran Turismo Sophy, the all-new artificial intelligence system developed by Sony AI in collaboration with Polyphony Digital. After making its debut as part of a limited-time “Race Together” special event in Gran Turismo 7 update 1.29 back in March, the Sony AI team has been quietly evaluating all of the data they collected and figuring out how to make the new agent better...

But can Sophy create a full fledged one player campaing mode?
If it is generative AI, lets ask to generate a campaing...
🤣

 

[hawkeyez]

But can Sophy create a full fledged one player campaing mode?
If it is generative AI, lets ask to generate a campaing...
🤣

They’ve got their work cut out for them. Gran Turismo AI is about the worst I’ve seen.

I’ve said it before, custom races they seem better. I’d like to hear straight from someone at PD why that is? Why do they purposely block/defend their line even on blue flag in the world circuit challenges as well as just simply driving into the side of me despite the fact I’ve been beside them down half of this straight and we still have a ways to go before the turn… but in custom races if I get beside them they seem to hold their line through the corner?

 

[Tired Tyres]

They’ve got their work cut out for them. Gran Turismo AI is about the worst I’ve seen.

I’ve said it before, custom races they seem better. I’d like to hear straight from someone at PD why that is? Why do they purposely block/defend their line even on blue flag in the world circuit challenges as well as just simply driving into the side of me despite the fact I’ve been beside them down half of this straight and we still have a ways to go before the turn… but in custom races if I get beside them they seem to hold their line through the corner?

Rubber banding and boost in custom races. That's the difference.

 

[Johnny Caisse]

As long as they can add an easy difficulty like GT7 already has I have no problem... then again I'm probably too easily satisfied.

Reason why I always play on easy is due to stress and pressure problems versus hardmode AI. (I have mental problems to put it in a way.)

Edit: I don't rage but let's say when things get tough in a racing game I start getting shaky hands and I lose consistency in really big ways.

 

[hawkeyez]

Rubber banding and boost in custom races. That's the difference.

Rubber banding? What’s that? Also boost?

 

[Dave A]

Rubber banding? What’s that? Also boost?

It means the AI drive faster when they're behind you and slower when they're ahead. Depending at what point in the race you are at, the AI displays notable rubber banding to catch up or allow the player to catch up.

 

[hawkeyez]

It means the AI drive faster when they're behind you and slower when they're ahead. Depending at what point in the race you are at, the AI displays notable rubber banding to catch up or allow the player to catch up.

Well whatever works I guess lol. Single player events for me… “ok he’s cutting the apex I’ll go wide, nooo why did you turn left off the apex mid turn!?!?”. Next corner…. “Ok he went on the inside line then blocked me, I’ll go wide and cut down, why’d you run close to the apex”.

Idk feels like no matter what I do they’re moving in front of me all the time. Yet on custom races I can get beside them just before a corner, even just the front of my car just behind their door and they stay wide tucked in, dependent on where I am.

Im decent at driving and have good control of my car, I’ve even come out of a straight just behind them take the not optimal line for the next corner and have them run into me on the straight before we even have to setup for the next turn!

I have video to prove it but it doesn’t let me upload it for some reason. Lol it’s ridiculous the way they react. Magnetic to my car it seems.

 

[Famine]

it doesn’t let me upload it for some reason

What doesn't? Where are you trying to upload it to?

 

[o000o]

The biggest misconceptions that users have about Sophy is expecting it to be used more in than just useless and irrelevant events.

 

[traind]

"We’ve also been working with PDI to make a version of the agent that can drive many more cars and be used in more flexible gameplay scenarios to give players more control over the races"

That's the key quote from the interview. Sophy is coming to GT7, hopefully sometime relatively soon.

 

[MroczMR]

Having sophy in career events would be great, but the most important place to see sophy for me is custom races!

 

[VR-SORN]

"the agent that can drive many more cars"
Thats interesting as it sounds its just one Sophy that is driving all the Sophy cars simultaneously rather than each car having its own Sophy driver.
Is it just one AI or is it multiple AI at once I wonder? If its one mega AI it means the actions of one car could be instantly fed to all other cars making a simulated more realistic response perhaps.

 

[Techlet]

Well, at least the people behind Sophy are aware that players actually want it (as a replacement for the current AI) in the game.

That's something.

 

[GTP_Versatile]

but the most important place to see sophy for me is custom races!

This, I have many saved custom race presets, just waiting for better AI to use them.

 

[TheNormsk]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

What’s Next for Gran Turismo Sophy? Exclusive Interview with Dr. Peter Wurman of Sony AI​

It has been a while since we’ve heard anything about Gran Turismo Sophy, the all-new artificial intelligence system developed by Sony AI in collaboration with Polyphony Digital. After making its debut as part of a limited-time “Race Together” special event in Gran Turismo 7 update 1.29 back in March, the Sony AI team has been quietly evaluating all of the data they collected and figuring out how to make the new agent better...

“or tell you whether a racing incident deserves a penalty.”

For me I would like PD to work this AI system into something that can be a real time race steward to resolve the issue of poor and dirty driving and as a triage to a system where you can report bad drivers and have the AI review the post race incident to determine in an incident should be reviewed by a real human for possible driver suspension action.

Currently Sport mode is being ruined by bad drivers. I think this is solely needed.

 

[SUBZERO-8K]

"the agent that can drive many more cars"
Thats interesting as it sounds its just one Sophy that is driving all the Sophy cars simultaneously rather than each car having its own Sophy driver.
Is it just one AI or is it multiple AI at once I wonder? If its one mega AI it means the actions of one car could be instantly fed to all other cars making a simulated more realistic response perhaps.

I think they just mean that currently they have to train the Sophy AI how to drive each car model. So they eventually want to create a generic version of Sophy which is capable of driving any car, rather than having to spend time training the AI to specifically learn how to drive each individual car.

I could be misunderstanding, but that's how I interpreted it.

 

[FluxWildly]

Rubber banding and boost in custom races. That's the difference.

Plus the manipulation of the AI handles is ridiculous. I have seen the gearbox settings get manipulated mid race to the point that an AI car will be able to go 30-40km/h faster while reving out in 5th gear!
The rubberbanding and manipulation then makes creating any stratergy impossible because if you pit before the AI they will slow down to a crawl or if they pit first and you end up 30 secs ahead, all of a sudden they are lapping 3-4 seconds a lap quicker doing impossible lap times in relation to their tyre type and bop settings

 

[Johnny Caisse]

Plus the manipulation of the AI handles is ridiculous. I have seen the gearbox settings get manipulated mid race to the point that an AI car will be able to go 30-40km/h faster while reving out in 5th gear!
The rubberbanding and manipulation then makes creating any stratergy impossible because if you pit before the AI they will slow down to a crawl or if they pit first and you end up 30 secs ahead, all of a sudden they are lapping 3-4 seconds a lap quicker doing impossible lap times in relation to their tyre type and bop settings

Rubberbanding A.I. confirmed. I used a trick to make extra cr. on Custom Race with Tomahawk X by limiting the car to 30 mph/51 kmh with a reverse transmission flip, give the car Comfort Hard Tires so I can put the game to Professional AI and get more credits and then loan it to the game and during the straights their max speed is unlimited but in corners they slow down to a crawl.