Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

[BallPtPenTheif]

Great interview. He highlighted a key point that players believe it's easy to tone the AI down.

Essentially Sophy keeps doing laps until it becomes theoretically fastest within the constraints given. How do you slow that? Do you decrease the iterations? By how much? Even if you give it a target delta to achieve and stop it improving - you can get results that are not human like. It's a very difficult task and I really don't think the solution will present itself anytime soon.

You throttle it by modifying the constraints and hamstringing it. The AI cars in the campaign are already underpowered (with the exception of the rabbit car). You can also modify and narrow the track limits for Sophy since slower drivers tend to underdrive the track limits too.

The concerning part though is that Sophy appears to be trained specifically by car, car setup, and track for a bespoke approach to every race. This obviously limits its application. I'd imagine that they're pushing toward developing general AI driver intelligence, so Sophy can be more adaptable to whatever situation it's thrown into.

 

[bduddy]

"Hamstringing it" would just make it take longer to achieve the same training result. And I don't think people really want to race an AI that only stays within the middle 1/3 of the track. That would be a very weird and unsatisfying experience.

The one approach I can think of is something called a GAN - basically, train an AI to behave like something that already exists. That thing being, actual human players at various levels of skill. You may have seen StyleGAN, which makes images and was briefly popular before everyone started using Stable Diffusion, but I'm pretty sure the same approach could be adapted to something else. Of course, that's very different from what Sophy is doing now and it's probably very difficult to adapt.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

"Hamstringing it" would just make it take longer to achieve the same training result. And I don't think people really want to race an AI that only stays within the middle 1/3 of the track. That would be a very weird and unsatisfying experience.

The one approach I can think of is something called a GAN - basically, train an AI to behave like something that already exists. That thing being, actual human players at various levels of skill. You may have seen StyleGAN, which makes images and was briefly popular before everyone started using Stable Diffusion, but I'm pretty sure the same approach could be adapted to something else. Of course, that's very different from what Sophy is doing now and it's probably very difficult to adapt.

Even Sophy has a limit on how fast it can drive a Honda Fit. Hamstringing was literally how PD throttled Sophy for the trial races. They've already done this.

Also, I don't know why you would characterize a track limit limitation as "1/3rd" of the track. I'm game for a fair discussion but characterizing my point as "1/3rd" of the track is ridiculous.

So no, I won't entertain or move on to your point, until you seriously address my point.

 

[Famine]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Polyphony Digital & Sony AI Working to Add GT Sophy as a “Larger and Permanent” Game Feature​

Sony AI America director Pete Wurman has revealed that his team and Polyphony Digital are working together in order to bring the machine reinforcement learning Sophy AI to Gran Turismo in a “much larger and permanent sense”...

 

[MroczMR]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Polyphony Digital & Sony AI Working to Add GT Sophy as a “Larger and Permanent” Game Feature​

Sony AI America director Pete Wurman has revealed that his team and Polyphony Digital are working together in order to bring the machine reinforcement learning Sophy AI to Gran Turismo in a “much larger and permanent sense”...

I hope it will be in near future.

 

[Alfa Romeo GT]

Very good news.
Better to have 5 ia as a sophy than the ia we've always had ...

I hope it's coming at least this year.

 

[sonnyboychris]

At the very least, they should put the trial version of Sophy back in while we wait. I have a feeling we're going to be waiting a while for this, possibly until gt8.

 

[Alfa Romeo GT]

At the very least, they should put the trial version of Sophy back in while we wait. I have a feeling we're going to be waiting a while for this, possibly until gt8.

Yeah, even partially implemented is fine . Like iracing, which is gradually adding ia-compatible circuits.
But they have to implement Sophy on the nordschleife first and then we'll see about the rest.

 

[pornomazinger]

I hope it will be in near future.

My friend do not fall for PD's lies.....

 

[ruestchiva]

If it ever happens, then it should be for GT8 as a PS5 only title. As implementing it on GT7 only for PS5 would bring sooooo many lawsuits. So prepare to wait another decade, ifffff it ever comes to fruition.

 

[danthespaceman]

If it ever happens, then it should be for GT8 as a PS5 only title. As implementing it on GT7 only for PS5 would bring sooooo many lawsuits. So prepare to wait another decade, ifffff it ever comes to fruition.

Why lawsuits? There a lots of features only availably for PS5 (PSVR2, previous Sophy events etc) that were only for PS5.

If it were a legal issue, perhaps GT7 should release a PS5 "B-spec" version with a bunch of updates. This is essentially what ACC is doing on consoles now.

 

[MroczMR]

Very good news.
Better to have 5 ia as a sophy than the ia we've always had ...

I hope it's coming at least this year.

I think. It would be interesting. To make Multiclass race, when you race against sophy in Group 1 cars for example, but normal standard AI drives Group 3 cars? That could be interesting.

 

[MikeTheHockeyFan]

I'm putting my bet down now: Sophy won't appear integrated into a Gran Turismo title before January 2026.

This is Kaz and PD we're talking about. They're probably spending a year devoting resources to develop a proprietary volumetric cloud generation system and refactoring the Photo Mode lens flair code.

 

[hawkeyez]

At the very least, they should put the trial version of Sophy back in while we wait. I have a feeling we're going to be waiting a while for this, possibly until gt8.

I won’t be buying GT8. After GT5 and GT6 I tolD myself I wouldn’t buy Gran Turismo again, sport came out, tried the demo, hard pass compared to Project Cars at the time. IF GT8 was all cars unlocked off the bat I’d consider it. But I ain’t grinding again for a lot the same cars. Lol

 

[Kean_1]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Sony AI America director Pete Wurman has revealed that his team and Polyphony Digital are working together in order to bring the machine reinforcement learning Sophy AI to Gran Turismo in a “much larger and permanent sense”...

Personally, I see this as excellent news and also hope it will be something implemented in GT7 in the near future. If not, it is what it is. Quite honestly, I wasn't expecting the Sophy event they had earlier this year and found the AI quite challenging (in a good way).

Thanks for the article. .....good stuff IMO.

 

[o000o]

What purpose is adding it permanent when you won't get to enjoy those in the core majority of the game? They are only about certain challenges, why add that when can race with other players when you want to push hard while otherwise only fighting ****** AI.

 

[Yard_Sale]

If they sold us a version of GT8 that included all of the cars without having to grind for say…… $200. I’d buy it.

 

[FurryestX]

But Is going to come to PS4 or Not?
Cause aint buying a 550€ console to just have better Ai races

 

[Famine]

But Is going to come to PS4 or Not?

There's no official confirmation, but you can pretty much assume it isn't.

 

[Tired Tyres]

But Is going to come to PS4 or Not?
Cause aint buying a 550€ console to just have better Ai races

Since the previous version was PS5 only…..

 

[RACECAR]

But Is going to come to PS4 or Not?
Cause aint buying a 550€ console to just have better Ai races

They weren't gonna get it to work on a near decade old console the first time so I'm not seeing them suddenly do it in the future either. Sooner or later, the PS4 is getting dropped so there is no point.

 

[shadow0460]

At the very least, they should put the trial version of Sophy back in while we wait. I have a feeling we're going to be waiting a while for this, possibly until gt8.

Yes, 2 million credits for a ten minute race with the ability to repeat it until my head falls off would be nice...to me, but not to PD!

 

[Zunaid1277]

When's the sophy event?

 

[LeGeNd-1]

This slide explains a lot of where Sophy's superhuman speed comes from.

- I'm surprised it cannot see kerbs, which probably means Sophy doesn't have any track elevation data either. Might explain why it always drives unrealistic lines putting 2 wheels on the grass, using the entry kerb to rotate the car, etc.

- Opponent wise, it's pretty equal.

- Having precise information about slip angle and all 4 tire loads are OP for Sophy in my opinion. In real life we have seat of the pants and g-forces feeling but on a sim at home you're only limited to the info coming from the screen and FFB wheel. You can tell general grip levels, but definitely not precise tyre load on all 4 contact patches every second.

- Control wise Sophy is also OP. Yes our wheels have 60Hz input BUT the human reaction time is only around 5Hz at max. Sophy at 10Hz is basically 2x as good as the best humans at controlling the throttle/brake/steering. And this is with automatic transmission. If Sophy learns manual and how to to optimise gears (like rapid downshifting to rotate, and short shifting to reduce wheelspin) it's gonna get even faster.

- Reaction time wise, it's good to see they are trying to equalise it with 250ms observation delays.

I think, it's quite remarkable how they managed to make Sophy so close to human bahaviour given it's physical limitations, but also I'm not surprised that it managed to beat humans given all its advantages. I am more surprised at how close human drivers could get despite all our disadvantages (reaction time mainly). Really makes you appreciate the soft blob between our ears.

I'm on PS4 Pro so I didn't have a chance to drive against Sophy, but I wonder how easy it is to add some sort of "emotion" to Sophy's driving. If you stick close to their tail they could get "pressured" and are more likely to make mistakes instead of driving perfect all the time. Will make racing against them more realistic because you don't have to take the lead in the first turn and block all the way to win. You can pass, get repassed, and pressure to pass again just like real drivers.

 

[hawkeyez]

View attachment 1279939

This slide explains a lot of where Sophy's superhuman speed comes from.

- I'm surprised it cannot see kerbs, which probably means Sophy doesn't have any track elevation data either. Might explain why it always drives unrealistic lines putting 2 wheels on the grass, using the entry kerb to rotate the car, etc.

- Opponent wise, it's pretty equal.

- Having precise information about slip angle and all 4 tire loads are OP for Sophy in my opinion. In real life we have seat of the pants and g-forces feeling but on a sim at home you're only limited to the info coming from the screen and FFB wheel. You can tell general grip levels, but definitely not precise tyre load on all 4 contact patches every second.

- Control wise Sophy is also OP. Yes our wheels have 60Hz input BUT the human reaction time is only around 5Hz at max. Sophy at 10Hz is basically 2x as good as the best humans at controlling the throttle/brake/steering. And this is with automatic transmission. If Sophy learns manual and how to to optimise gears (like rapid downshifting to rotate, and short shifting to reduce wheelspin) it's gonna get even faster.

- Reaction time wise, it's good to see they are trying to equalise it with 250ms observation delays.

I think, it's quite remarkable how they managed to make Sophy so close to human bahaviour given it's physical limitations, but also I'm not surprised that it managed to beat humans given all its advantages. I am more surprised at how close human drivers could get despite all our disadvantages (reaction time mainly). Really makes you appreciate the soft blob between our ears.

I'm on PS4 Pro so I didn't have a chance to drive against Sophy, but I wonder how easy it is to add some sort of "emotion" to Sophy's driving. If you stick close to their tail they could get "pressured" and are more likely to make mistakes instead of driving perfect all the time. Will make racing against them more realistic because you don't have to take the lead in the first turn and block all the way to win. You can pass, get repassed, and pressure to pass again just like real drivers.

Yeah they’ll need to add emotion to sophy. But that being said I was doing a custom race and I had a much faster car, I just kept close to the car in front of me around a few turns and it blew the next corner, no contact was made.

Im convinced custom race has better AI than all the other races.

 

[Alfa Romeo GT]

When I had the opportunity to finally fight against Sophy I said to myself FINALLY damn it!
There I regained confidence in the game, I told myself that anything was possible...
But it was only temporary !

WHY ?

Why not leave them until they move forward on the AI?
And to gradually add the circuits managed by Sophy?

Rather than leaving us with one of the worst artificial intelligences in car games?

Even iracing, which is a multiplayer game, has done better than devs with a license that is more than 20 years old...

And now we have to wait an indefinite time because they can't offer us a road map...
I don't care about new cars if the ai is bad.

 

[Franco_Racer]

“or tell you whether a racing incident deserves a penalty.”

For me I would like PD to work this AI system into something that can be a real time race steward to resolve the issue of poor and dirty driving and as a triage to a system where you can report bad drivers and have the AI review the post race incident to determine in an incident should be reviewed by a real human for possible driver suspension action.

Currently Sport mode is being ruined by bad drivers. I think this is solely needed.

I couldn't agree more 👍

At least they seem to be aware of that, there is a little hint of that in the interview..

On the other hand, "Dr. Wurman: We do not have anything to share at this time." - AI-like response to mean "no way" for PS 4 players.. 😆😂

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Yeah they’ll need to add emotion to sophy. But that being said I was doing a custom race and I had a much faster car, I just kept close to the car in front of me around a few turns and it blew the next corner, no contact was made.

Im convinced custom race has better AI than all the other races.

Yes I've seen AI drivers wipe out in custom races more than the career races. But it feels a bit too exaggerated in my opinion (aka too easy to pressure them). Top drivers don't crack just because you stick close for a few corners. Maybe over a whole race, you can see them get more and more unstable and finally they crack on the last lap. I want Sophy to have that level of emotional subtlety.

GT5 had this with B-spec where if you push your driver too much, he will get in the "red zone" and more prone to make mistakes like braking too late or spinning out. A low level untrained Bob will get in the red zone quicker than a highly trained Bob. So PD defo already has the coding for this kind of thing back then.


An old PS2 game called R: Racing Evolution also had this feature. If you get close to an opponent there is a bar on top of the car, and it gradually fills the closer and longer you stay behind them. If it gets red they make a mistake.

 

[hawkeyez]

I forgot about that B Spec, I didn’t play it much, if I remember right you didn’t actually drive you just instructed your driver how to drive?

Racing Evolution, I wouldn’t be a fan of seeing a red bar above cars I get close to. Please just do it behind the scenes.

I wish I would have saved that custom race replay, it was road atlanta, up the first right hand turn on like lap two I was behind this car he got a bit loose taking that tight right handed, I kept close on the inside of every turn after that, the front end of my car just at his rear tire. When we got to the hard left after that snakey downhill section he wiped out off into the sand. Nobody made contact with him.

Thinking back, I was probably just in a position where it was trying to avoid hitting me and threw itself off balance too many times, it sure looked like it was desperately trying to hang onto it for that entire section. Which is odd because usually they just turn right into me. But that’s championships, custom race is always different.

I have been experiencing the rubber banding as somebody mentioned earlier in this thread. I guess I should say I’ve been noticing it now and yeah it kind of takes you out of it. Running hot laps suddenly the second place guy is there again? Lol

 

[Famine]

This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:

Watch Gran Turismo Sophy Drift Like a Pro​

If you were lucky enough to be at the Gran Turismo World Series Showdown in Amsterdam last month, you might have been treated to the latest build of the new GT Sophy AI agent putting in a rather unexpected performance: a drift exhibition...