Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital
- Thread starter Magog
- 1,719 comments
- 194,601 views
- 1,925
- United States
"The research goal is to get an agent to the point where it can completely replace the built-in AI and make the racing experience much more realistic and much more enjoyable for all players of all types. The current setup is mostly 'chase the rabbit' scenarios, and you have to go online and race humans to get a real racing situation, but that's also its own complicated mess. If you could do that by yourself with the AI that's in the game, it would be a lot more fun, I think," Wurman told Ars.
arstechnica.com
Article on the update with a few quotes from Sony's AI division
Almost-unbeatable AI is now a permanent feature of Gran Turismo 7
The Sophy AI can now drive 340 cars and nine tracks in the game after update 1.40.
arstechnica.com
Article on the update with a few quotes from Sony's AI division
- 3,659
- PNW
- cowabungacorey
I am so fascinated by Sophy and want it to succeed but I have so many questions about it's implementation and I hope it can be improved to make it a viable asset in future games/updates. It's good now, but it doesn't seem like it's improved enough over the last 6 months to really make a monumental change in the next 6 months.
- 1,330
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
One thing I’ve noticed while running Road Atlanta with the new Charged with a fully customizable transmission on the expert setting is this… it’s not easy. Best I could manage was 2nd place. I ran it like five or six times. The main disappointment was realizing it’s still chase the rabbit, they’re just clumped together in small groups more often.
But get this, I ran a tuned Camaro at Goodwood against Sophy. Before the first lap was even done I was in first place. It was a walk in the park. Sophy is much more fun to race against then the old AI but the bar wasn’t set very high from the beginning in my opinion.
Sophy is much welcomed over the old AI but it feels like there’s a long ways to go yet. I’m going to try the same race with different cars, stock and tuned and see how it changes things.
- 105
- United Kingdom
Sophys not playable on Goodwood circuit though, is she?
Last edited:
- 4,545
- Australia
- 1,330
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
I might have made a mistake there and saw the quick race thing and assumed. I’m going to take the same Camaro to Road Atlanta and see how it pans out.
Also sounds like if I take a tuned car, Sophy just thinks I took the stock version with stock tires? Weird. Wonder why they didn’t just limit the garage to stock only vehicles when racing Sophy then?
Last edited:
- 1,330
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
That makes sense, but I thought the entire purpose of Sophy was to improve the single player experience. Shouldn’t have to tune cars just right to make it close racing. I think I might be able to beat it in the Charger but I’ll have to race an absolute perfect race without any of the AI getting in my way, which they still seem to do. I don’t understand why on the back straight after the hill down the bend, if I go to the left of them they move over. I mean I get it, they’re blocking but they’ve shut the door on me twice on that straight, can only change lanes once.
Anyway they’ve got some work cut out for them yet imo but it’s a good improvement for sure. Breathed some new life into the single player portion of the game for sure.
- 24,439
- United States
- GTP_Jordan
- GTP_Jordan
This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:
How Sophy 2.0 is Different, and What Comes Next For Gran Turismo 7’s Super-Human AI
Gran Turismo 7’s Spec II update included the release of GT Sophy 2.0, the latest iteration of the new artificial intelligence system built for the game by Sony AI. It can now control many different types of cars on a wider range of tracks, and the technology has come a long way in since it was first made available to the public back in March of 2023...
- 1,330
- Canada
- the-1st-hawkeyez
I won’t be buying GT8 simply because it will also be a grind. by the time it comes out we will hopefully have AC2 and GT Revival. Used to play GT5, then GT6 came out… what?! I have to earn all these cars again?!?! Project Cars showed up, GT6 got shelves along with its Chewbacca howl tire squeals.
This is the discussion thread for an article on GTPlanet:
How Sophy 2.0 is Different, and What Comes Next For Gran Turismo 7’s Super-Human AI
Gran Turismo 7’s Spec II update included the release of GT Sophy 2.0, the latest iteration of the new artificial intelligence system built for the game by Sony AI. It can now control many different types of cars on a wider range of tracks, and the technology has come a long way in since it was first made available to the public back in March of 2023...
Thank you for the article. I now understand and agree with th 2.0 designation.
I'm excited for what the future of GT AI can be!
Edit: Did you get the chance to ask why are Sophy races use the boost which makes the slow down/speed up according to your pace and if the way it's implemented will allow for turning the knobs for aggression, speed and maybe other behaviour aspects?
Last edited:
- 1,097
- United Kingdom
- theufc33
GT8’s custom races, if it has Sophy AI, and they can drive any car with any modifications, man. Honestly - if they added event sharing, you wouldn’t even need to add more events (though it would be nice). Imagine a daily, weekly, or even custom championship rotation where the most upvoted races/events/championships are shown first, depending on if you select to view by likes.
There’s the potential to keep the offline content rolling in for years beyond when PD has moved onto GT9. You could have a GTP sub-forum just for custom races people have shared. And, if the payouts were good, it’d be worth your time from that point of view, too.
There’s the potential to keep the offline content rolling in for years beyond when PD has moved onto GT9. You could have a GTP sub-forum just for custom races people have shared. And, if the payouts were good, it’d be worth your time from that point of view, too.
dabz343
(Banned)
- 950
- United States
- dabz343
One of the more intriguing aspects of Sophy that I am keen to learn about -- how to adjust the reinforcement learning parameters, and perhaps even the execution aspects, to induce faults/mistakes like a real human. As we talk mostly about AI's potential for superhuman capabilities, the subgenre of creating humanlike faults may require just as much finesse and refinement...Imagine if Sophy could feel the pressure from a persistent player, which then elevates Sophy's chances to make a mistake? Or if it remembers how you beat her last time?
Might just be a really important area of AI that has huge potential for significant IP -- especially within the entertainment/companionship/friend applications.
The most anticipated feature IMO. If they can integrate Sophy into the single-player experience through a coherent narrative that welcomes drivers of all ages/experiences, then it will be a new high for the franchise. If they squander it by implementing Sophy into say the Cafe menu framework or just in the custom races, then the boos are going to be thunderous.
I wish them luck, but the expectations are unimaginably high.
- 51,150
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Good stuff. However, they are the experts and I guess, the people that are giving feedback, are experts as well. I think “SOPHY Aggressive” maybe should have been allowed to keep racing and the SOPHY 2.0 trained as is.
I just see 2.0 as dumbed down. Okay, if not dumbed down and now more intelligent with more information, SOPHY being less aggressive, seems to make SOPPHY easier to beat. To me, that means players can earn highest rewards for grinding. I mean, that’s the end game for players. If players can’t keep getting the highest payouts, it takes longer to get access to cars.
For the way I play, I don’t want to win every race. Even when I’m grinding to fill a grid.
Maybe they’ll strike that balance, but seems the feedback is leaning more towards casual players and nearly leaving out players that spend lots of time wanting challenging AI.
I just see 2.0 as dumbed down. Okay, if not dumbed down and now more intelligent with more information, SOPHY being less aggressive, seems to make SOPPHY easier to beat. To me, that means players can earn highest rewards for grinding. I mean, that’s the end game for players. If players can’t keep getting the highest payouts, it takes longer to get access to cars.
For the way I play, I don’t want to win every race. Even when I’m grinding to fill a grid.
Maybe they’ll strike that balance, but seems the feedback is leaning more towards casual players and nearly leaving out players that spend lots of time wanting challenging AI.
- 79
- Spain
- 2,611
- Brazil
that kind of reaction needs to be very nuanced and subtle.It would be easy for players to try certain methods to get Sophy to make mistakes quicker.
I honestly don't even think it's worth it thinking about that right now,leave it for a Sophy 5.0.Hopefully they keep working on it as long as Sony allows it.Maybe PD can loan the tool set to work with their in house devs so they can come up with their own versions.
dabz343
(Banned)
- 950
- United States
- dabz343
That is the beauty of the machine learning paradigm. Whatever we player do to create an advantage/exploit, Sophy will continuously observe, learn and try new things to gain back that advantage -- much like a human.
Like I said earlier, the really interesting part is when you couple this learning behavior with Sophy's propensity to make mistakes, then the racing may take on another dimension.
I think the concept of a player finding a clever exploit to out smart an AI opponent is surely becoming a relic of the past. While this may be absolutely true for all the AI opponents in past games regardless of genre, we are witnessing the beginning of an intelligent agent/opponent that has the capabilities to adapt to our strategies and tactics.
Players' like myself will be thoroughly engrosses in such a scenario, trying to outwit Sophy again and again...but I know my clever methods will be ephemeral...and the challenge of coming up with new ways is where all the fun is for this human player.
LeGeNd-1
Premium
- 7,264
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
Kaz basically saying what me and a lot of people have been saying...VGTs are just for show and terrible to drive. Even an omnipotent AI with practically unlimited practice time struggles to drive them.
Once Sophy is trained, it's behaviour matrix is fixed. It cannot learn from racing against humans on a home console. I'm surprised how many people still don't quite get this aspect of machine learning.
Sony/PD servers = machine learning = Sophy learns how to drive and how to race --> the final program is compiled and released as a game update.
Your PS5 console = Sophy program runs and reacts based on your inputs and what it HAS learned, but does NOT learn new behaviour from racing against you. After the race the Sophy program is NOT modified. It's like the race didn't happen from their perspective.
If Sophy learns from novel situations you won't be able to beat it like this. On lap 2 it will learn to go around the player instead of getting stuck behind.
There is progression, and there is stupid amount of grinding that serves no purpose than to inflate gameplay time and force people towards MTX. I bought the 330 P4 four times already now in GT5/6/Sport/7 grinding 20 million each time and it gets old.
You don't forget all your skills as a driver between games and you should also be able to transfer some cars and credits between each game as well. Of course if you want to start from zero there should be an option too.
Last edited:
- 1,994
- Sweden
While things like gt7 has not done the progression the best, starting over in a new gt game has always been a thing, if you dont like that gt might not be for you, that was always find fresh about a new game, thats the best part with gt and if they did more in style With gt4 career mode, i would find it very exciting to start over again,
And what i find so boring about most sims is that everything is unlocked from start, that might be more ideal for some, but i find it much more rewarding and fun with getting the content myself, start from scratch with a cheap daily driver, and build your way up, this what aet gt4 apart from any other racing game the simple best career mode and progression of all time,
Last edited:
- 4,545
- Australia
"The research goal is to get an agent to the point where it can completely replace the built-in AI and make the racing experience much more realistic and much more enjoyable for all players of all types. The current setup is mostly 'chase the rabbit' scenarios, and you have to go online and race humans to get a real racing situation, but that's also its own complicated mess. If you could do that by yourself with the AI that's in the game, it would be a lot more fun, I think," Wurman told Ars.
Almost-unbeatable AI is now a permanent feature of Gran Turismo 7
The Sophy AI can now drive 340 cars and nine tracks in the game after update 1.40.
Article on the update with a few quotes from Sony's AI division
Yes that is the issue with Sophy right now - to make it more widely implemented they have integrated it with GT7s overarching AI, which sucks.
Unless they decouple it from Gran Turismos stock AI completely then Sophy will fail no matter how clever the Sony AI team is. And Sony AI frankly seem to understand the importance of actual racing offline better than PD does.
PDs stock AI needs an overhaul and I don't see PD doing that because that is unglamorous dirty work that I don't see them being interested in doing.
Last edited:
- 858
- United Kingdom
- jonoholland29
- JonoH29
Sophy 3.0 could be here in 2024 on all tracks? That would be a good update.
I think having different irritations of Sophy is really the key. There are plenty of A class drivers that want a super aggressive Sophy but there's more B, C and D drivers that wouldn't want this (and those in between).
The making mistakes thing is really exciting because that's the most human part of it. I remember Senna after his crash at Monaco and how he blamed himself... if the greats make mistakes
I think having different irritations of Sophy is really the key. There are plenty of A class drivers that want a super aggressive Sophy but there's more B, C and D drivers that wouldn't want this (and those in between).
The making mistakes thing is really exciting because that's the most human part of it. I remember Senna after his crash at Monaco and how he blamed himself... if the greats make mistakes
Similar threads
