Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

  • Thread starter Magog
  • 1,719 comments
  • 194,597 views
Funnily, it’s like the architect explaining how humans wouldn’t accept the Matrix program being perfect. :lol:

Training the AI to make mistakes, still seems too artificial. It’s like letting someone win by pretending to miss when it’s your turn. May as well have SOPHY slow up before the finish line. 🤔 :sly:
 
Your PS5 console = Sophy program runs and reacts based on your inputs and what it HAS learned, but does NOT learn new behaviour from racing against you. After the race the Sophy program is NOT modified. It's like the race didn't happen from their perspective.
This may be an accurate description of what we players enjoy as Sophy in GT7 on PS5. And it is fine by me because it is still a novel feature and a distinct differentiator against direct competitors. However, as the hardware/software evolves -- perhaps takes even a leap -- Sophy may not be bound by the 'compiled and released as an update' protocol as you put it.

In my world, technology never stops. And as the ending of the article suggest, it looks like whether you are talking about LLMs like ChatGPT or the secretive OpenAI's Q*, things are definitely moving quickly.

I too am surprised at how many people still don't get this about machine learning -- it's just the beginning. We are just witnessing the clamshell version of the mobile phone. Remember those? Strap in, make sure your belts are tight -- it's gonna be a wild ride.

1702649135906.png


The making mistakes thing is really exciting because that's the most human part of it. I remember Senna after his crash at Monaco and how he blamed himself... if the greats make mistakes
Funnily, it’s like the architect explaining how humans wouldn’t accept the Matrix program being perfect. :lol:

Training the AI to make mistakes, still seems too artificial. It’s like letting someone win by pretending to miss when it’s your turn. May as well have SOPHY slow up before the finish line. 🤔 :sly:
Exactly, this is why techniques from the the old 'brute force' mentality isn't going to work IMO. We will need something more elegant, like in the way the original DeepMind's AlphaGo leveraged a multi-layered architecture for it's move choices. Like I said, the subgenre of AI behavior/performance that fluidly mimics humans and all of our faults, represent a significant IP potential.

While every one of the players in the AI race are engrossed in achieving superhuman intelligence, it may really be the ability for some to provide organic AI mistakes that allows users to accelerate adoption. It's interesting to see if the gaming community will lead this development as it makes a lot of sense to have the ability to tailor AI opponents' skills to match that of the human player.
 
Earning the cars again and progress through the game is one thing i find fun with each game, if they took that away i would not buy it, becouse thst is what gt always been about
Its called progression,
NO THANKS.

The issue for me is the economy of all the races, the single player challenges suck. I’d probably have enough credits with the hours I’ve invested into the game if online paid out fairly.

GT7 = start at the back, drive like a maniac to catch the leader that started a mile ahead of you. This has been their formula forever, in what world does any race resemble this? Blowing past each car 20-30mph faster than them, one by one.

PC2 (or any other racing sim game for that matter) = Qualify, Race, maybe win, maybe don’t, but always racing in the pack. On Project Cars I remember getting the AI difficulty and personality tuned perfectly to me. I’d qualify first and sometimes not be able to win the race. I’d drop to 5th, gain a few positions, lose one, gain one. Darn, got 2nd or 3rd that time. Run it again and just squeak by with a win. It was always a RACE! No money involved, didn’t play the game to earn credits, played the game to race!

PD brag about their AI and now Sophy, their AI has sucked for years. Sophy isn’t much better, maybe it will be but the way they implement racing against their AI sucks. Chase the rabbit.

Oddly, in custom races AI is better than the single player challenges. It’s still not great though. Project Cars had a difficulty slider. And for the most part it worked. Go up 1% if you needed to and boom, you’re getting the race of a lifetime against essentially programmed AI that don’t learn. GT7 were stuck trying to find a properly matched car but a lower pp car to try and get close racing.

THEY NEED TO TAKE THEIR CODE FOR THEIR AI, BURN IT AND START OVER. Possibly looking at others games to learn what is actually good. Make your AI fun to race against, pay out equally for race time and I’ll play GT8. But from GT1 to GT7 essentially the foundation hasn’t changed, it’s a chase the rabbit style grind. The best addition has been being able to race online. But even then, can’t toss a few AI into the race. That tells me something about their AI, why haven’t they given us that feature? PC2 you can do it and experience some fun races with you and a friend and fifteen other cars if no one else is online.

Gran Turismo is and always will be a grind fest first, and a racing game second.
 
Last edited:
Earning the cars again and progress through the game is one thing i find fun with each game, if they took that away i would not buy it, becouse thst is what gt always been about
Its called progression,
Well, you could argue it's not really progression if you have to keep doing it again each iteration..

Also they could just as easily make all cars available in a different game mode and leave the car collecting to career mode.

Anyway, Sophy looks really promising, but in the end it all comes down to having the right difficulty for each player. Too hard or too easy isnt fun, but what is too hard or too easy differs per person. So they will have to find a way to make the difficulty adjustable and consistent across different tracks.

So far I'm not holding my breath. Polyphony is too weird a developer for me to trust them with pretty much anything. But if a final and proper version of it comes out I might get back into Gran Turismo again.
 
Well, you could argue it's not really progression if you have to keep doing it again each iteration..

Also they could just as easily make all cars available in a different game mode and leave the car collecting to career mode.

Anyway, Sophy looks really promising, but in the end it all comes down to having the right difficulty for each player. Too hard or too easy isnt fun, but what is too hard or too easy differs per person. So they will have to find a way to make the difficulty adjustable and consistent across different tracks.

So far I'm not holding my breath. Polyphony is too weird a developer for me to trust them with pretty much anything. But if a final and proper version of it comes out I might get back into Gran Turismo again.
The game nearly has all cars available without purchase. Sport Mode and some Time Trial events, have rental cars. Arcade Mode have a set amount of cars players don’t have to buy. PD could make all cars available. In GT Sport, when a new game is started and the player is offline, there are about thirty cars available. When the player goes online and downloads the newer versions, the Arcade Mode car list is limited to about half.

We just don’t know why PD do certain things with their games.
 
when i read that i thought he meant the Tomahawks and Chaparrals.Not the Ferrari VGT or other more sensible VGTs.
They say GT Sophy can only drive 340 cars though. I'm on PS4 so I cannot check, maybe there is someone who has compiled a list of what cars GT Sophy cannot drive. It's certainly more than just the Tomahawk and Chaparral.

I've almost driven every car in the game (only about 120 left). Some of the VGTs are just plain BAD to drive because of low ground clearance, too much power, too little grip and wonky unfinished physics because of their concept nature. Try the Porsche, Jaguar and Italdesign VGTs around the Nordschleife and you'll know what I mean.
While things like gt7 has not done the progression the best, starting over in a new gt game has always been a thing, if you dont like that gt might not be for you, that was always find fresh about a new game, thats the best part with gt and if they did more in style With gt4 career mode, i would find it very exciting to start over again,

And what i find so boring about most sims is that everything is unlocked from start, that might be more ideal for some, but i find it much more rewarding and fun with getting the content myself, start from scratch with a cheap daily driver, and build your way up, this what aet gt4 apart from any other racing game the simple best career mode and progression of all time,
GT not for me when I have bought and driven every car in GT1, GT2, GT5P, GT PSP, GT5, GT6, GT Sport and GT7 :lol: But having been there done that, doesn't mean I like the grinding system and there are clear examples from other games that does it better.

Driveclub - you have around 200 unique events in career mode, thanks to dynamic weather and time and carefully curated Championships focusing on particular car classes. You still need to progress and earn XP to unlock cars, but by the time you finished career mode you have enough to unlock everything. None of the races feel alike so you don't get bored, and you get to sample every car in the game without repeating/grinding one particular race 100s of times.

Project CARS - all cars and tracks unlocked from the start in free play mode so you can just jump in and drive whatever you choose upon buying the game. But if you want to slog it out in slower cars first you can also do so in career mode. Unlike GT where if you buy the special edition you can destroy everyone in Sunday Cup with your Castrol Supra, despite the game forcing you to buy a Mazda2 first :lol:

Assetto Corsa - I can buy the game and within minutes set up a custom race with a full grid of 917Ks all with unique liveries. You try to do that in GT7 - you have to grind 20 million 20 times, then search liveries and apply them one by one in GT Auto. God knows how long that will take.

GRID - you start off in slow cars and work your way up. You need to buy cars but the credits rewards increase proportionately in the endgame races. By the time you finished career, you have enough money to buy all the cars and free to do whatever you want.

Objectively, there are ways of making progression fun and reasonable without forcing someone to repeat the SAME race for 10 hours just to buy ONE car.

Subjectively, some people like to be a masochist and follow the cult of Kaz. If that's you, go ahead but me and many others don't share the same view.
This may be an accurate description of what we players enjoy as Sophy in GT7 on PS5. And it is fine by me because it is still a novel feature and a distinct differentiator against direct competitors. However, as the hardware/software evolves -- perhaps takes even a leap -- Sophy may not be bound by the 'compiled and released as an update' protocol as you put it.

In my world, technology never stops. And as the ending of the article suggest, it looks like whether you are talking about LLMs like ChatGPT or the secretive OpenAI's Q*, things are definitely moving quickly.

I too am surprised at how many people still don't get this about machine learning -- it's just the beginning. We are just witnessing the clamshell version of the mobile phone. Remember those? Strap in, make sure your belts are tight -- it's gonna be a wild ride.
For machine learning to happen live on home consoles you're looking at several generations ahead. Who knows if Kaz or GT is still around then. The computational requirements are just multiple orders of magnitude beyond current home consoles.

Also you're creating a situation where every game copy has its own unique AI. Your copy of GT10 is going to be different from everyone else. How does that work from a user parity point of view? If you're a slow and bad driver your Sophy is going to be dumber than everyone else too. Or they will learn to drive dirtier and dirtier. The gameplay is going to be 180 degress completely different for each copy. Not sure PD would like people uploading videos of Sophy driving like Wreckfest.

I can see in the future where everything is cloud based and you just stream the AI code from PD's central server. That way every race every person does updates the central AI, and everyone benefits from the updated code simultaneously. But you only have to look at how popular game streaming is right now, and the myriad of connection problems that still plagues always online titles to see this is still very very far away.

By that point, you might as well just race online against real people.
 
Last edited:
They say GT Sophy can only drive 340 cars though. I'm on PS4 so I cannot check, maybe there is someone who has compiled a list of what cars GT Sophy cannot drive. It's certainly more than just the Tomahawk and Chaparral.

I've almost driven every car in the game (only about 120 left). Some of the VGTs are just plain BAD to drive because of low ground clearance, too much power, too little grip and wonky unfinished physics because of their concept nature. Try the Porsche, Jaguar and Italdesign VGTs around the Nordschleife and you'll know what I mean.

GT not for me when I have bought and driven every car in GT1, GT2, GT5P, GT PSP, GT5, GT6, GT Sport and GT7 :lol: But having been there done that, doesn't mean I like the grinding system and there are clear examples from other games that does it better.

Driveclub - you have around 200 unique events in career mode, thanks to dynamic weather and time and carefully curated Championships focusing on particular car classes. You still need to progress and earn XP to unlock cars, but by the time you finished career mode you have enough to unlock everything. None of the races feel alike so you don't get bored, and you get to sample every car in the game without repeating/grinding one particular race 100s of times.

Project CARS - all cars and tracks unlocked from the start in free play mode so you can just jump in and drive whatever you choose upon buying the game. But if you want to slog it out in slower cars first you can also do so in career mode. Unlike GT where if you buy the special edition you can destroy everyone in Sunday Cup with your Castrol Supra, despite the game forcing you to buy a Mazda2 first :lol:

Assetto Corsa - I can buy the game and within minutes set up a custom race with a full grid of 917Ks all with unique liveries. You try to do that in GT7 - you have to grind 20 million 20 times, then search liveries and apply them one by one in GT Auto. God knows how long that will take.

GRID - you start off in slow cars and work your way up. You need to buy cars but the credits rewards increase proportionately in the endgame races. By the time you finished career, you have enough money to buy all the cars and free to do whatever you want.

Objectively, there are ways of making progression fun and reasonable without forcing someone to repeat the SAME race for 10 hours just to buy ONE car.

Subjectively, some people like to be a masochist and follow the cult of Kaz. If that's you, go ahead but me and many others don't share the same view.

For machine learning to happen live on home consoles you're looking at several generations ahead. Who knows if Kaz or GT is still around then. The computational requirements are just multiple orders of magnitude beyond current home consoles.

Also you're creating a situation where every game copy has its own unique AI. Your copy of GT10 is going to be different from everyone else. How does that work from a user parity point of view? If you're a slow and bad driver your Sophy is going to be dumber than everyone else too. Or they will learn to drive dirtier and dirtier. The gameplay is going to be 180 degress completely different for each copy. Not sure PD would like people uploading videos of Sophy driving like Wreckfest.

I can see in the future where everything is cloud based and you just stream the AI code from PD's central server. That way every race every person does updates the central AI, and everyone benefits from the updated code simultaneously. But you only have to look at how popular game streaming is right now, and the myriad of connection problems that still plagues always online titles to see this is still very very far away.

By that point, you might as well just race online against real people.
I just said gt7 did not do the progression the best, but if we would get a career mode more like in style with gt4 that would not be a problem, that game did the career and progression best of any racing game ever made, it made every car feel special, it never feeled like a grind

i was never much of fan of project cars i got bored of them very quickly becouse i didint like the progression.

assetto corsa is much better in my view it dosent have good career or progression either but the mods is what keeping that game really alive and what makes it so good, and is no suprice we seeing gt4 style career mode mod being made for it, becouse everyone now how good that was
 
Last edited:
I think it's more enjoyable to think optimistically about what could happen, rather than be entrenched about what will not happen. To see Sophy evolve in GT8/GT9 and perhaps on another console or 2, is going to be very interesting. Also, if Sony, who seems to be pivoting their entire PS business model to accelerate AI development like everyone else on this planet atm, begins to rollout a broader AI framework, then we as players are in for a real treat.

The fun and unique thing about having an intelligent foresight is that you get to participate in making the future come to life in a certain way. Sure, writing a thread response on GTP may not be the most impactful, but ideas about how the future could unfold and sharing them broadly does have merit and I would not discount its value.

IMO, Sophy and the entire machine learning technology is so new that it would not be wise to state conclusively what can and cannot be done in 3-5 years, especially for a large institution like Sony.

I'm still surprised at how some continue to beat the 'NO, it isn't gonna happen' drum. IMO, these guys never imagine anything, never conceive anything and never build anything. All they offer is an unimaginative NO.

Why we consistently give them time of day, I do not know.
 


So this happened. As I was trying to pass Sophy(R32) it's trying to push me off road multiple times.

Looks like it played wreckfest and learned that there. Very strange behaviour
 


So this happened. As I was trying to pass Sophy(R32) it's trying to push me off road multiple times.

Looks like it played wreckfest and learned that there. Very strange behaviour

I think it’s just trying to get in the slipstream of the car in front - not sure it’s actually aware of your presence
 
Here's a guy that seems to envision AI in every aspect of racing...not all ideas are great, but can't fault his enthusiasm.

 


So this happened. As I was trying to pass Sophy(R32) it's trying to push me off road multiple times.

Looks like it played wreckfest and learned that there. Very strange behaviour

The car is definitely following some predetermined slipstream on that side of the track. They're not quite aware of their surroundings during those maneuvers it seems
 
I think it's more enjoyable to think optimistically about what could happen, rather than be entrenched about what will not happen. To see Sophy evolve in GT8/GT9 and perhaps on another console or 2, is going to be very interesting. Also, if Sony, who seems to be pivoting their entire PS business model to accelerate AI development like everyone else on this planet atm, begins to rollout a broader AI framework, then we as players are in for a real treat.

The fun and unique thing about having an intelligent foresight is that you get to participate in making the future come to life in a certain way. Sure, writing a thread response on GTP may not be the most impactful, but ideas about how the future could unfold and sharing them broadly does have merit and I would not discount its value.

IMO, Sophy and the entire machine learning technology is so new that it would not be wise to state conclusively what can and cannot be done in 3-5 years, especially for a large institution like Sony.

I'm still surprised at how some continue to beat the 'NO, it isn't gonna happen' drum. IMO, these guys never imagine anything, never conceive anything and never build anything. All they offer is an unimaginative NO.

Why we consistently give them time of day, I do not know.
I get your optimism, I really do, but sometimes certain ideas just doesn't take off for a reason despite it being technically feasible. We have been dreaming about flying cars for years now (and people have made working concepts) but at the end of the day, it's just not a viable mass transportation option.

I can see a live learning Sophy being feasible within 2-3 console generations, but it will absolutely wreak havoc on the parity and quality of a future GT game. We all know how much of a stickler Kaz is for consistency and high quality. I cannot imagine he will be happy people showcasing intentionally "breaking" Sophy's training and turning it into a dumb/dirty driver. It's basically a more advanced version of Forza's drivatar at that point. If you read the Nature article they had people at PD race multiple test runs with several Sophy prototypes before unleashing it to the world. It takes that many iterations and testing to get something decent (and as we can see sometimes it still doesn't behave naturally enough).

Once they get Sophy to drive every car and track, handle weather, tyre/fuel wear and pitstops, and have a slider for pace/aggression/consistency, I reckon that is more than enough. Most people I race online doesn't really change even over long periods, it's a bit unrealistic for Sophy to change every time you race against her. It's making things 99% more complicated just for a 0.1% benefit.

I do like the video you posted and could see benefits of AI in other fields - helping setup work, balancing BOP, judging penalties more accurately, helping artists make cars/tracks, automating a lot of development work, etc.
 
Last edited:
It's not so much optimism, I just make a small effort to avoid slipping into a cycle of negativity -- especially when others are trying to express their own ideas about how to make the game a bit more fun/entertaining/refined.
 
I think there's a difference between being negative and being realistic, and also the difference between an optimist and unrealistic. But yes I understand what you mean and it is nice having a bit more positivity around these parts :)
 
Last edited:
What would be really cool is that Sophy could replicate the behaviors of “real” drivers.

That way when I’m racing against V, Gallo or J. Serrano they behave just like the real drivers would.
 
What would be really cool is that Sophy could replicate the behaviors of “real” drivers.
Now that you say this, it would be such a cool feature.

Licensing issues could be a factor, but keeping pace with a virtual Senna/Schumacher/Räikkönen -- with all of their quirks -- sounds incredible. Perhaps a grid of F1 legends is not the right starting point...like you say, Gallo/Serrano...and oh that 13 year old Fordzilla phenom.
 
What would be really cool is that Sophy could replicate the behaviors of “real” drivers.

That way when I’m racing against V, Gallo or J. Serrano they behave just like the real drivers would.
So they'd lap us?

I don't see the fun there.

They say GT Sophy can only drive 340 cars though. I'm on PS4 so I cannot check, maybe there is someone who has compiled a list of what cars GT Sophy cannot drive. It's certainly more than just the Tomahawk and Chaparral.
I don't know why they decided on a brute-force training tactic like this. It's just random and silly. Just start training with Go Karts and then milk that as a series for two months, while you train up a Mazda cup car, and work your way up the classes developing actual racing series around individual stock cars with diverse liveries. There are so many great stock classes in the game that are just never fully exploited and used. iRacing creates an entire insulated racing series around car classes, I don't know why PD doesn't do the same when it's just mission design and testing to make it happen. Just another missed opportunity.

I can find a fun tune on a car to make the Sophy racing "competitive", but they're still white rabbit races where you dummy dodge the pack just to make it to the top 3 cars that you actually have to race on the last lap. It's fun because Sophy goes for real moves, but it's still nothing like racing people in competitive cars.
 
AI like Sophy learns from thousands upon thousands of thousands of different races. No number of races with a single person could ever hope to substitute for the actual training that's going on. Any AI that "learns from you" is almost certainly pretending.
 
If Pd could find a way to set an interesting bundle of initial parameters to help encourage Sophy to develop in diverse ways, this could lead to many versions that drive with distinct personalities.

Identifiably different types of race craft would be wonderful to race against. Perhaps these personalities could mimmic or draw inspiration from motorsports icons.
 
Thats the thing. Obviously, the real AI is good. It seems done. With the PD adjustments, we’re back to the beginning.

I’m saying, in my custom races, I have good battles at certain tracks and with various grids. Some grids, I don’t make a dent in catching the AI. Such as my Gr.4 grids(RWD cars only).
My DTM and Group A grids, if and/or when I reach P1, I tested the gaps by cutting chicanes and just going as hard as I can, where the AI are a bit cautious and the programming will make sure to boost to gain back that one second gap. Just have programs that adjust the gaps with a slider.

Seriously, the Boost Weak programming, for majority of my races, is subtle in how it keeps the gaps, when I’m racing hard.

Right when PD have a good thing with SOPHY, appears they’ve gone half assed with SOPHY 2.0.
 
I still think PD seem utterly confused about direction. More and more they seem to want to push the player base into online racing, but instead of focusing on using AI to better steward it, they now seem to want to use it to make single player a (quite frankly) cleaner and better experience than online.

It strikes me that, if Sophy can drive the car pretty close to the edge, that data can be compared to a rammer or dive bomber for last possible point of braking for a clean move. If exceeded, penalty. Has a dirty driver forced you off track? How much room would Sophy leave? If less room left than Sophy, penalty. Would Sophy make multiple blocking moves? If not, penalty. Would Sophy re-enter the track and cause a wreck after an off? If not, penalty…. Etc., etc..

iIf you have a system that can do fast, clean racing, why can’t it be used as comparison to a real player to adjudicate blame in a racing incident?

I think THAT’S a lot more important than a better offline experience when you are playing a game with an emphasis on online racing….
 
I still think PD seem utterly confused about direction. More and more they seem to want to push the player base into online racing, but instead of focusing on using AI to better steward it, they now seem to want to use it to make single player a (quite frankly) cleaner and better experience than online.

It strikes me that, if Sophy can drive the car pretty close to the edge, that data can be compared to a rammer or dive bomber for last possible point of braking for a clean move. If exceeded, penalty. Has a dirty driver forced you off track? How much room would Sophy leave? If less room left than Sophy, penalty. Would Sophy make multiple blocking moves? If not, penalty. Would Sophy re-enter the track and cause a wreck after an off? If not, penalty…. Etc., etc..

iIf you have a system that can do fast, clean racing, why can’t it be used as comparison to a real player to adjudicate blame in a racing incident?

I think THAT’S a lot more important than a better offline experience when you are playing a game with an emphasis on online racing….
IIRC correctly GT4 was probably the first one to have a penalty system in its Rally Mode but every fault is blamed towards the player and the A.I isn't punished at all no matter what. I agree that it's weird that since 2005 their penalty system hasn't seemingly evolved much.
 
I think that the speed up/slow down AI behavior should be a simple on/off option for the player to select. Some want the ultimate realism - you have an off or a wreck, it’s highly unlikely you will ever catch back up if Sophy is set to your likely best pace. Some want a racing GAME where if you make a mistake it’s not the end of the world..

A single behavior will only ever keep ONE type of player happy. And maybe not even that one type, as once you get better, faster, more consistent, you may not want the rubber banding any more. A toggle on/off doesn’t seem like a difficult thing to add!

IIRC correctly GT4 was probably the first one to have a penalty system in its Rally Mode but every fault is blamed towards the player and the A.I isn't punished at all no matter what. I agree that it's weird that since 2005 their penalty system hasn't seemingly evolved much.

GT6’s ‘Quick Race’ feature (iirc) was the first mode to try and steward an online race, and it was an abject failure, and hasn’t improved much since. It has been ten YEARS since then, and little progress made. But that was because there was no way to compare to a clean behavior system. Back before Sport Mode, the clean online racing was only to be found in Leagues and rooms labeled ‘GTP Clean or kick’ and nobody that wanted a clean race would touch Quick Race with a ten foot pole!

Sport Mode forced most of the base to essentially use Quick Race stewarding, and it has been a joke ever since. Sophy finally presents the possibility of a decent stewarding system. Sport Mode desperately needs this to return sanity to online racing.
 

Latest Posts

Back