Gran Turismo Sophy: Sony AI x Polyphony Digital

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I still think PD seem utterly confused about direction. More and more they seem to want to push the player base into online racing, but instead of focusing on using AI to better steward it, they now seem to want to use it to make single player a (quite frankly) cleaner and better experience than online.

It strikes me that, if Sophy can drive the car pretty close to the edge, that data can be compared to a rammer or dive bomber for last possible point of braking for a clean move. If exceeded, penalty. Has a dirty driver forced you off track? How much room would Sophy leave? If less room left than Sophy, penalty. Would Sophy make multiple blocking moves? If not, penalty. Would Sophy re-enter the track and cause a wreck after an off? If not, penalty…. Etc., etc..

iIf you have a system that can do fast, clean racing, why can’t it be used as comparison to a real player to adjudicate blame in a racing incident?

I think THAT’S a lot more important than a better offline experience when you are playing a game with an emphasis on online racing….
A vast majority of the player base barely even tried Sport Mode. It makes considerably more sense to improve the AI for single player which has long been a complaint of the campaign before online racing was even a thing. And if the AI is going to determine penalties based on Sophy data, then Sophy would have still needed to be developed beforehand anyway.
 
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A vast majority of the player base barely even tried Sport Mode. It makes considerably more sense to improve the AI for single player which has long been a complaint of the campaign before online racing was even a thing. And if the AI is going to determine penalties based on Sophy data, then Sophy would have still needed to be developed beforehand anyway.
I have a nasty feeling the vast majority of those that never played Sport Mode are little kids that wouldn’t know what proper opponents behave like anyway. I mean, if they never compete against humans, how would they know what is and isn’t realistic?

I'm afraid I think if you never play Sport Mode, you’re mostly into overpowering your car, painting on a garish livery, and ramming the AI out the way!

But yes, you’re right, got to get Sophy realistic before it can be used to determine fault, but quite honestly, I don’t see the vast majority of kids who never use Sport Mode as considering Sophy of being an improvement to their way of playing. I feel something along the lines of Grid’s ‘Nemesis’ behavior is what they want, an opponent that retaliates when you punt them off..! Realistic defensive behavior is just going to make them Ram even more!
 
Does Sophy retaliate if you ram her? Up to now, I've had no problems... yet. I do everything I can to be clean and I don't seem to get into trouble.
 
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So Singleplayer Gamers = Stupid Kids? :rolleyes:🤦‍♂️
Hard to understand, if it’s not ‘stupid kids’, why are they so determined to NEVER race online? Remember, I said the vast majority, NOT everyone. But to race well, you need to learn against decent opponents. Sophy doesn’t appear to have grown online participation. Which it ought to, once the few non-kids get the skills they must feel they don’t have yet.

That Gran Turismo has ALWAYS (in the online games) been vastly offline in player numbers seems to indicate the majority of players aren’t ‘racing’ in the adult sense of the word, or gradually the online component should grow. It hasn’t.

Although PD may not intend this as a consequence of Sophy development, I foresee it actually shrinking online participation, because pre-Sophy (and PS4 players) have no alternative to find realistic opponents other than online. But if Sophy prepared offline racers for real adult racing, by now I’d expect to see them testing their skills gained in Sport Mode. The numbers don’t show that.

A whole generation has happily played Gran Turismo against an AI that is laughably slow and never ventured online. Which shows, at least to me, they aren’t interested in adult racing. They can punt their opponents off with impunity offline. And that’s what ‘racing games’ is all about for the vast majority of kids. And a lot of adults too, from what I’ve seen of online rooms..!
 
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Hard to understand, if it’s not ‘stupid kids’, why are they so determined to NEVER race online?
Not having PS Plus would be one very important reason. Playing casually 20 to 50 hours over the games lifetime (not 1000 like we do ;-)) would be another. Finding online-competition (especially if not used to) stressfull would be a third. I think those together make up a big number of people.
 
Gotta say, that's an impressive conclusion you jumped to there!

I'm one of the "stupid kids" you talk of who rarely plays sport mode these days. I'm 34 and have played all the GT games since GT1 and much prefer single player to online. Why?

Because sport mode lobbies always seem to contain at least 1 player who thinks it's bumpercars.

I have 2 young children and don't get much time to game, so the last thing I want is it ruined by someone who doesn't feel like playing by the rules that day.

Your response will be to say that I'm the exception, and everyone else is the stupid kid, I'm sure, but the reality is there are loads of reasons people would want competitive, clean AI in single player - to avoid the irrational behaviour of people online is one, ironically...
 
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Hard to understand, if it’s not ‘stupid kids’, why are they so determined to NEVER race online? Remember, I said the vast majority, NOT everyone. But to race well, you need to learn against decent opponents. Sophy doesn’t appear to have grown online participation. Which it ought to, once the few non-kids get the skills they must feel they don’t have yet.

That Gran Turismo has ALWAYS (in the online games) been vastly offline in player numbers seems to indicate the majority of players aren’t ‘racing’ in the adult sense of the word, or gradually the online component should grow. It hasn’t.

Although PD may not intend this as a consequence of Sophy development, I foresee it actually shrinking online participation, because pre-Sophy (and PS4 players) have no alternative to find realistic opponents other than online. But if Sophy prepared offline racers for real adult racing, by now I’d expect to see them testing their skills gained in Sport Mode. The numbers don’t show that.

A whole generation has happily played Gran Turismo against an AI that is laughably slow and never ventured online. Which shows, at least to me, they aren’t interested in adult racing. They can punt their opponents off with impunity offline. And that’s what ‘racing games’ is all about for the vast majority of kids. And a lot of adults too, from what I’ve seen of online rooms..!
I’ve raced online a fair bit in GT Sport and GT7 and it is always an awful experience of drivers just like described. I often play during the day when the “kids” are at school (as I have kids myself).

The penalty system/judiciary doesn’t work in GT7 and looks like it won’t change, so I won’t be venturing online again.
 
Hard to understand, if it’s not ‘stupid kids’, why are they so determined to NEVER race online? Remember, I said the vast majority, NOT everyone. But to race well, you need to learn against decent opponents. Sophy doesn’t appear to have grown online participation. Which it ought to, once the few non-kids get the skills they must feel they don’t have yet.

That Gran Turismo has ALWAYS (in the online games) been vastly offline in player numbers seems to indicate the majority of players aren’t ‘racing’ in the adult sense of the word, or gradually the online component should grow. It hasn’t.

Although PD may not intend this as a consequence of Sophy development, I foresee it actually shrinking online participation, because pre-Sophy (and PS4 players) have no alternative to find realistic opponents other than online. But if Sophy prepared offline racers for real adult racing, by now I’d expect to see them testing their skills gained in Sport Mode. The numbers don’t show that.

A whole generation has happily played Gran Turismo against an AI that is laughably slow and never ventured online. Which shows, at least to me, they aren’t interested in adult racing. They can punt their opponents off with impunity offline. And that’s what ‘racing games’ is all about for the vast majority of kids. And a lot of adults too, from what I’ve seen of online rooms..!
Elitist much? Edit: Garish liveries, huh? Not my fault if I was born with mental problems, you know. No worries, though... it's nothing obscene, it's just a Pokemon-esque livery turned into a cat.
 
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determined to NEVER race online?
I have a cat that likes attention, and it would be unfair to others who want to drive with a full roster if I jump out of the game because cat.
I wont commit online for this reason - and because there simply is no event that really picks my interest + player hosted lobbies just suck technically.
I am happy there is the online TT to see how I fit into the base, and thats all I need.

As far as the offline goes, I guess everyone isaware the AI isnt as fast or as competitive as humans of identical level to oneself, but as an offline player we - if we want to - can simply downtune the car to have something that comes close to a challenge as in racing.
The AI at least can drive consistently clean, which I dont expect to happen in 100% of the online races.
Or we dont and simply drive for driving.
 
Hard to understand, if it’s not ‘stupid kids’, why are they so determined to NEVER race online? Remember, I said the vast majority, NOT everyone. But to race well, you need to learn against decent opponents. Sophy doesn’t appear to have grown online participation. Which it ought to, once the few non-kids get the skills they must feel they don’t have yet.

That Gran Turismo has ALWAYS (in the online games) been vastly offline in player numbers seems to indicate the majority of players aren’t ‘racing’ in the adult sense of the word, or gradually the online component should grow. It hasn’t.

Although PD may not intend this as a consequence of Sophy development, I foresee it actually shrinking online participation, because pre-Sophy (and PS4 players) have no alternative to find realistic opponents other than online. But if Sophy prepared offline racers for real adult racing, by now I’d expect to see them testing their skills gained in Sport Mode. The numbers don’t show that.

A whole generation has happily played Gran Turismo against an AI that is laughably slow and never ventured online. Which shows, at least to me, they aren’t interested in adult racing. They can punt their opponents off with impunity offline. And that’s what ‘racing games’ is all about for the vast majority of kids. And a lot of adults too, from what I’ve seen of online rooms..!

Fun fact: The "stupid kids" who don't know how to race are actually racing online. There isn't any barrier of sorts gatekeeping them from joining Sport Mode. If they have a PS Plus subscription, there's little to prevent them from playing online and punt off other cars there just as they do offline. Hence why the sole online activity I personally am taking part in these days is time trials.
 
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I've been mulling over it a bit, but I can't help but to think that Sophy, at least, as we know it right now, isn't the answer to Gran Turismo's problems in the long run.



This is my first race with Sophy AI, and I got spun out by Sophy out of the hairpin at Suzuka (at around 1:08 in the video), and then forced off track in the braking zone going into Casio Triangle (2:14). Despite all these mishaps, I still finished 2nd place in a 3 lap race. I was thoroughly unimpressed by this new AI. I have heard many things about how technically impressive Sophy AI is behind the scenes, how inhumanely quick it is, and how resource intensive it is to train it up to handle different cars and tracks, but to the end user (me), all I can see is still stupidly dangerous and woefully slow AI that still struggles to overtake each other in spite of an overwhelming straight line speed advantage, and is thus functionally no different from the existing AI we have in the game.

By now, we all know that Polyphony Digital applies an artificial slowdown onto Sophy opponents to make them beatable. There is no reason my 2002 RX-7 Spirit R will vastly overpower a 1980 930 911 Turbo on the straights. From my experience racing a real person with bone stock cars with BoP/Settings Disabled turned on, I can tell that the straight line acceleration between the FD and 930 is roughly equal until about 205km/h, when the 930 has to upshift into 4th gear. Yet, when I race a Sophy controlled 930 in that exact same car (at around 4:26 in the video), my FD blew past the 930 as though the Porsche was standing still well before I reached 200km/h. It can be seen via replay HUD that the 930 was going flat out, and it cannot even use a lean fuel mix in a race with no fuel consumption. The only explanation here is that there is an unseen, artificial slowdown applied onto the Sophy AI cars, which would mean that it is Polyphony Digital's conscious decision to structure the races in this exact "chase down the exceptionally fast lead car while navigating through slow roadblocks" fashion.

As can be seen from the various Clubman Cup+ "Chilli Races", the existing AI in the game is more than capable of putting up a thrilling battle with the player. I opine that the main problem with Gran Turismo 7's Single Player campaign isn't that the AI is bad; but rather, it's that PD keeps insisting on these asinine "chase the rabbit" style races, where the player only has one true opponent to beat in a time trial, and the rest of the cars on the field are annoying road blocks. Even with Sophy AI, if PD were to keep applying this artificial slowdown and stupid style of "racing", I hardly think that the AI model would make much of a difference to the experience of the game. That is to say, I opine that the main problem with GT7's lacklustre single player campaign isn't so much the bad AI, but moreso the way the "races" are structured, if those charades can even be called races.

The worst part about this artificial slowdown is that, according to Peter Wurman, "Sophy can adjust by literally driving like a newer driver instead of just artificially slowing down", and yet Polyphony Digital chose the artificial slowdown route instead. Perhaps that driving like a newer driver bit still has some bugs and kinks that need working out, which also ties into my next point.

My main concern however, is that, if it takes so much time and resources to train Sophy AI to handle a given car and track combination, to the point where we can only race against Sophy AI on a select few tracks under fixed conditions with completely stock cars, then I fear that Sophy AI will become the bottleneck in overall progress for the series. I imagine that we will be stuck with our current physics model for a few good years, because to revamp the physics model would involve all the time and resources in re–training ALL existing combinations of Sophy to handle a physics change. I fear that in the next Gran Turismo title, we won't have races with variable time and weather, tyre wear and fuel use, or even tuned opponents, simply because Sophy cannot handle any of that.

I'm failing to see why we should make all these large compromises, if the end result is that Sophy AI becomes functionally identical to the regular AI.
 
Sophy isn’t sorted out yet.

Sport mode is full of way too competitive players that will do anything to win, and I don’t like the cars that are usually used.

Online with a good group in a private room with a chat party is the best racing you can get. That’s been my experience anyway. Sometimes I race a little too clean and give way too much room but I hate being the guy who knocks somebody off the track. It happens, by accident, you wait up, say you’re sorry and move on.

Single player is ok, but once you’ve done every race, it gets old. Chase the rabbit is mostly the reason why.

PD brags up Sophy but I remember having better races in much older race sims. GT Legends was a super fun game. Project Cars I remember qualifying 2nd or 3rd, managing to get into 1st place and it being a battle to maintain that position.

For the most part, GT7, once you actually pass the AI it’s like they back way off. I’ve felt like I’ll never get past first, but managed and it’s like as soon as I get beside it, it brakes and now the entire race is mine for the last lap. Their AI in my opinion has to be some of the worst out there, and I also think the way the single player races are, actually trains people to ram their way through.
 
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It's perplexing, baffling, confusing how a team of racing enthusiasts think that we want this whole scripted system they have going on more than the AI simply pushing throughout the whole race with our choice of difficulty.

As a consequence of this weird system, multi class racing doesn't work. I tried a 18 opponent, 6 car per class Gr.1, 3, 4 race with myself in Gr.4 at the back. Racing the same class of cars, I went 75% throttle on straights and took corners at half speed but even then, I had to slow down at some points. In just 3 or so laps of my mediocre normal pace at Saint Croix A, I pulled ahead 40 seconds, the same distance the Gr.3s had gained on me from going at the Gr.4's pace. The replay showed they were at full(ish) throttle but they were just... slow, being held back and cruising through corners. There is no fight in them anywhere except at the front when the player gets there and a random opponent from the mid-pack that gets the fastest lap sometimes.

I have a PS4 so I haven't tried Sophy but from what I've seen, the exact same crap applies. And I needed to vent lol. This is so incredibly frustrating.
 
I've been mulling over it a bit, but I can't help but to think that Sophy, at least, as we know it right now, isn't the answer to Gran Turismo's problems in the long run.



This is my first race with Sophy AI, and I got spun out by Sophy out of the hairpin at Suzuka (at around 1:08 in the video), and then forced off track in the braking zone going into Casio Triangle (2:14). Despite all these mishaps, I still finished 2nd place in a 3 lap race. I was thoroughly unimpressed by this new AI. I have heard many things about how technically impressive Sophy AI is behind the scenes, how inhumanely quick it is, and how resource intensive it is to train it up to handle different cars and tracks, but to the end user (me), all I can see is still stupidly dangerous and woefully slow AI that still struggles to overtake each other in spite of an overwhelming straight line speed advantage, and is thus functionally no different from the existing AI we have in the game.

By now, we all know that Polyphony Digital applies an artificial slowdown onto Sophy opponents to make them beatable. There is no reason my 2002 RX-7 Spirit R will vastly overpower a 1980 930 911 Turbo on the straights. From my experience racing a real person with bone stock cars with BoP/Settings Disabled turned on, I can tell that the straight line acceleration between the FD and 930 is roughly equal until about 205km/h, when the 930 has to upshift into 4th gear. Yet, when I race a Sophy controlled 930 in that exact same car (at around 4:26 in the video), my FD blew past the 930 as though the Porsche was standing still well before I reached 200km/h. It can be seen via replay HUD that the 930 was going flat out, and it cannot even use a lean fuel mix in a race with no fuel consumption. The only explanation here is that there is an unseen, artificial slowdown applied onto the Sophy AI cars, which would mean that it is Polyphony Digital's conscious decision to structure the races in this exact "chase down the exceptionally fast lead car while navigating through slow roadblocks" fashion.

As can be seen from the various Clubman Cup+ "Chilli Races", the existing AI in the game is more than capable of putting up a thrilling battle with the player. I opine that the main problem with Gran Turismo 7's Single Player campaign isn't that the AI is bad; but rather, it's that PD keeps insisting on these asinine "chase the rabbit" style races, where the player only has one true opponent to beat in a time trial, and the rest of the cars on the field are annoying road blocks. Even with Sophy AI, if PD were to keep applying this artificial slowdown and stupid style of "racing", I hardly think that the AI model would make much of a difference to the experience of the game. That is to say, I opine that the main problem with GT7's lacklustre single player campaign isn't so much the bad AI, but moreso the way the "races" are structured, if those charades can even be called races.

The worst part about this artificial slowdown is that, according to Peter Wurman, "Sophy can adjust by literally driving like a newer driver instead of just artificially slowing down", and yet Polyphony Digital chose the artificial slowdown route instead. Perhaps that driving like a newer driver bit still has some bugs and kinks that need working out, which also ties into my next point.

My main concern however, is that, if it takes so much time and resources to train Sophy AI to handle a given car and track combination, to the point where we can only race against Sophy AI on a select few tracks under fixed conditions with completely stock cars, then I fear that Sophy AI will become the bottleneck in overall progress for the series. I imagine that we will be stuck with our current physics model for a few good years, because to revamp the physics model would involve all the time and resources in re–training ALL existing combinations of Sophy to handle a physics change. I fear that in the next Gran Turismo title, we won't have races with variable time and weather, tyre wear and fuel use, or even tuned opponents, simply because Sophy cannot handle any of that.

I'm failing to see why we should make all these large compromises, if the end result is that Sophy AI becomes functionally identical to the regular AI.

The main problem as almost always, is that PD will not let us game players who bought the games, decide and tune how fast Sophy AI or other AI shall be. Or even decide freely how fast car types the AI opponents shall be. Give us choices and options about almost every parameter and I shall easily make myself a very entertaining game mode.

NO THANKS.

The issue for me is the economy of all the races, the single player challenges suck. I’d probably have enough credits with the hours I’ve invested into the game if online paid out fairly.

GT7 = start at the back, drive like a maniac to catch the leader that started a mile ahead of you. This has been their formula forever, in what world does any race resemble this? Blowing past each car 20-30mph faster than them, one by one.

PC2 (or any other racing sim game for that matter) = Qualify, Race, maybe win, maybe don’t, but always racing in the pack. On Project Cars I remember getting the AI difficulty and personality tuned perfectly to me. I’d qualify first and sometimes not be able to win the race. I’d drop to 5th, gain a few positions, lose one, gain one. Darn, got 2nd or 3rd that time. Run it again and just squeak by with a win. It was always a RACE! No money involved, didn’t play the game to earn credits, played the game to race!

PD brag about their AI and now Sophy, their AI has sucked for years. Sophy isn’t much better, maybe it will be but the way they implement racing against their AI sucks. Chase the rabbit.

Oddly, in custom races AI is better than the single player challenges. It’s still not great though. Project Cars had a difficulty slider. And for the most part it worked. Go up 1% if you needed to and boom, you’re getting the race of a lifetime against essentially programmed AI that don’t learn. GT7 were stuck trying to find a properly matched car but a lower pp car to try and get close racing.

THEY NEED TO TAKE THEIR CODE FOR THEIR AI, BURN IT AND START OVER. Possibly looking at others games to learn what is actually good. Make your AI fun to race against, pay out equally for race time and I’ll play GT8. But from GT1 to GT7 essentially the foundation hasn’t changed, it’s a chase the rabbit style grind. The best addition has been being able to race online. But even then, can’t toss a few AI into the race. That tells me something about their AI, why haven’t they given us that feature? PC2 you can do it and experience some fun races with you and a friend and fifteen other cars if no one else is online.

Gran Turismo is and always will be a grind fest first, and a racing game second.
Even though it takes only a few hours of coding to make different setups for racing, let us start first, let us decide the payout, let us decide how many opponent cars, let the PP limit be optional etc.
 


This is my first race with Sophy AI, and I got spun out by Sophy out of the hairpin at Suzuka (at around 1:08 in the video), and then forced off track in the braking zone going into Casio Triangle (2:14).

You spun yourself out on that hairpin. You jerk the wheel right just as Sophy tries to squeeze your exit. Sophy is at fault but you threw her a curve ball on that exit.

As for being forced off the track. Sophy doesn't respect a slow nose being thrown up on the outside. You lost all your momentum when you rammed into the back of the car and you didn't have the speed to establish a reasonable overlap heading into the chicane. Sophy was right to deny your space there because you didn't earn it.

People complain about Sophy doing malicious things but when I see the footage, it's always a player putting Sophy in a difficult situation and then being upset when Sophy made a choice that didn't benefit the player.
 
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You spun yourself out on that hairpin. You jerk the wheel right just as Sophy tries to squeeze your exit. Sophy is at fault but you threw her a curve ball on that exit.

As for being forced off the track. Sophy doesn't respect a slow nose being thrown up on the outside. You lost all your momentum when you rammed into the back of the car and you didn't have the speed to establish a reasonable overlap heading into the chicane. Sophy was right to deny your space there because you didn't earn it.

People complain about Sophy doing malicious things but when I see the footage, it's always a player putting Sophy in a difficult situation and then being upset when Sophy made a choice that didn't benefit the player.
I don’t know how to upload a video on here but I just had a race against Sophy and it took me out as I was making a turn, it divebombed, I was already turning, you can hear it accelerate into me like it was blind I was even there.

It’s better, but it’s not perfect. IMO Sophy should have been there at launch and then I would maybe think, huh Gran turismo’s AI is finally half decent. Their sounds, their AI and their chase the rabbit/grind for credits style game is a bit of an issue for me and always has been. But since we’ve been able to race online with real people that plays less of a factor besides earning pennies for online races.
 
You spun yourself out on that hairpin. You jerk the wheel right just as Sophy tries to squeeze your exit. Sophy is at fault but you threw her a curve ball on that exit.

As for being forced off the track. Sophy doesn't respect a slow nose being thrown up on the outside. You lost all your momentum when you rammed into the back of the car and you didn't have the speed to establish a reasonable overlap heading into the chicane. Sophy was right to deny your space there because you didn't earn it.

People complain about Sophy doing malicious things but when I see the footage, it's always a player putting Sophy in a difficult situation and then being upset when Sophy made a choice that didn't benefit the player.
I concede the hairpin incident. It looked like Sophy spun me out from my angle, but I will agree that I went wide and squeezed out the M2 when watched from Sophy's angle. I'm willing to accept a bit of responsibility for that.

The Casio Ttiangle incident however, I'm not that amicable. I dove to the left to avoid the slow Clio. The Clio was slow on the right, and coming out of 130R, I was already slightly to the left of the Clio, and so I made the decision to go left to avoid the Clio. Going right would mean taking myself off the track, and what's to say the grass wouldn't make the Clio understeer and continue going straight.

Despite the momentum loss to the Clio, I still had an overspeed into the braking zone of Casio Triangle. The Clio squeezed me to the extreme left of the track before we even started braking, and then edged me out in the braking zone. I concede that I don't have a reasonable overlap to the Clio to be deserving of space, but what was I to do in a braking zone with no room? Sophy looked like it was intent on giving me space, and then shut the door in the worst time.

If it were you behind the wheel, what would you have done differently?
 
Hard to understand, if it’s not ‘stupid kids’, why are they so determined to NEVER race online? Remember, I said the vast majority, NOT everyone. But to race well, you need to learn against decent opponents. Sophy doesn’t appear to have grown online participation. Which it ought to, once the few non-kids get the skills they must feel they don’t have yet.

That Gran Turismo has ALWAYS (in the online games) been vastly offline in player numbers seems to indicate the majority of players aren’t ‘racing’ in the adult sense of the word, or gradually the online component should grow. It hasn’t.

Although PD may not intend this as a consequence of Sophy development, I foresee it actually shrinking online participation, because pre-Sophy (and PS4 players) have no alternative to find realistic opponents other than online. But if Sophy prepared offline racers for real adult racing, by now I’d expect to see them testing their skills gained in Sport Mode. The numbers don’t show that.

A whole generation has happily played Gran Turismo against an AI that is laughably slow and never ventured online. Which shows, at least to me, they aren’t interested in adult racing. They can punt their opponents off with impunity offline. And that’s what ‘racing games’ is all about for the vast majority of kids. And a lot of adults too, from what I’ve seen of online rooms..!
This take is crappier than the game's campaign payout.
 
This take is crappier than the game's campaign payout.
Exactly!! I'm almost 40 and a kid could draw a better design than I can on a car! I mean, look at that ridiculous design I did on another game. When I was 30 (My bad, I keep screwin' up my numbers...) I would race a kid that would own the heck out of me because I had and still have sub-average driving skills!

Edit: And yes, he was very talented and a clean driver. In Forza Motorsport 3 he had a true skill of 41/50! Me? 8/50. XD

Yes, I've got a soft spot for cute cats.
 

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I am still unconvinced by arguments that rather than being kids playing puntfest with the laughably slow pre-Sophy AI, there are adults that have played GT through many iterations and prefer it to online…

Was not Sophy a response to at least four game generations complaints that the AI was stupid and slow..? And yet, despite that, we are still showing a well under 5% participation online.

I’m sorry, but I can’t think of any reason to shun online if you aren’t just into punting others out your way other than you can’t find a split slow enough AND clean enough to participate in. And anyone that’s got $80 for the game has $80 for PS+.

Yes, everyone’s first forays into online racing are going to be painful. You’ve spent your entire life racing a laughably slow AI, you are going to find yourself up against a field of opponents that finally DO give a damn if you pass them! Welcome to the real world…

Finally, let’s just say it beggars belief that 95% of the player base races clean against the AI, and it’s only when they get online that the skills to punt people off without getting penalized are developed..! Virtually every other racing game going back as far as you like has encouraged an arcade-like style of playing. It’s you out to win by whatever means necessary, and most arcade racers actually REWARD you for punting your opponents off, short cutting the track, whatever it takes.

I know making generalizations is going to garner some hostile responses from those that refuse to acknowledge I didn’t say ALL offline players are puntfest kids. But be honest, do you honestly think that 95% of the player base shares your values? Online certainly doesn’t!
 
Was not Sophy a response to at least four game generations complaints that the AI was stupid and slow..?
No, Sophy was created as a project to see how fast AI can race.
It was not done BY PD, which you suggest with the way you formulated your sentence.

And Sophy actually was fast, just not the version we know have ingame, because somehow someone decided that the setting "inhumanly fast" shouldnt be available.
Also its quite dissappointing that Sophy races only last 3 laps and to this point are very limited in scope of what the game has to offer over all races and events (and cars).
 
Yeah. Its the three laps..

Just as i avoid race B, because often the race length turns it into a set up, 3 laps is just too short.
 
Why do they insist on us doing the work for them? You want somewhat close fun racing? Pick your chilli pepper setting (man that sounds so stupid lol) and then find a car at the proper performance point and tune… keep searching until everything matches up perfectly and it’s still a chase the rabbit race.

PC2 was enter, start racing, who’s they’re way too good, drop difficulty slider, oops too slow, bump it up and leave it at the perfect setting. They start getting a bit too easy, just bump it up a percent.
 
I am still unconvinced by arguments that rather than being kids playing puntfest with the laughably slow pre-Sophy AI, there are adults that have played GT through many iterations and prefer it to online…

Was not Sophy a response to at least four game generations complaints that the AI was stupid and slow..? And yet, despite that, we are still showing a well under 5% participation online.

I’m sorry, but I can’t think of any reason to shun online if you aren’t just into punting others out your way other than you can’t find a split slow enough AND clean enough to participate in. And anyone that’s got $80 for the game has $80 for PS+.

Yes, everyone’s first forays into online racing are going to be painful. You’ve spent your entire life racing a laughably slow AI, you are going to find yourself up against a field of opponents that finally DO give a damn if you pass them! Welcome to the real world…

Finally, let’s just say it beggars belief that 95% of the player base races clean against the AI, and it’s only when they get online that the skills to punt people off without getting penalized are developed..! Virtually every other racing game going back as far as you like has encouraged an arcade-like style of playing. It’s you out to win by whatever means necessary, and most arcade racers actually REWARD you for punting your opponents off, short cutting the track, whatever it takes.

I know making generalizations is going to garner some hostile responses from those that refuse to acknowledge I didn’t say ALL offline players are puntfest kids. But be honest, do you honestly think that 95% of the player base shares your values? Online certainly doesn’t!
You keep undermining any sensible arguments you have when you keep throwing in phrases like "stupid kids" "puntfest" etc. on top of your obnoxiously condescending tone.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll return to punting the laughably slow AI off the track in the Clubman Cup 500 races with my Red Bull X2019. That's all simpletons who don't race online are capable of doing, right?
 
I am still unconvinced by arguments that rather than being kids playing puntfest with the laughably slow pre-Sophy AI, there are adults that have played GT through many iterations and prefer it to online…
Right here.

I dislike most multiplayer games because I don't like having my leisure time experiences dictated by the behaviour of other people.

Invariably half of all the people you meet online are dim, about half of those are stupid, and about half of those are ****wits. Around 20% of people have a violent behaviour problem too, regardless of how smart or stupid they are, and will take punitive action for any perceived slight including being slightly worse at the game than someone else, as well as just those special people who just want to ruin everything for everyone.

On average that means two idiots and three griefers (and there may be an overlap; stupid people are more likely to be overly aggressive) per 16-person lobby in any multiplayer game.

I've certainly played enough COD and WOT to know that's not far off the mark, and my GT5, GT5P, GT6, GTS and GT7 experiences tally with that.

At least the AI are predictably dim. Being sideswiped on the final straight by someone who can't bear to be 7th instead of 6th after a race in which they've not previously behaved badly is not predictable - but also all-too-common.


And there's plenty of kids online too. We're just fooled into thinking otherwise with GT7 because we can't hear them screaming down voice chat like they do in COD.
 
You keep undermining any sensible arguments you have when you keep throwing in phrases like "stupid kids" "puntfest" etc. on top of your obnoxiously condescending tone.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll return to punting the laughably slow AI off the track in the Clubman Cup 500 races with my Red Bull X2019. That's all simpletons who don't race online are capable of doing, right?
To be fair that whole door bangery, push to pass technique screams offline mode. And it’s infuriating.

Also, i doubt its kids. I’d wager most of the choads online are 35-60.
 
I think it screams "kiddies". And as we know online gamers, especially in GT are younger than offline gamers. So...
 
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