Gran Turismo Sport: General Discussion

[Johnnypenso]

I agree.

But I believe the animosity comes because some feel that all the features/nuances of one game should be in all games.
And if it isn't, it suddenly becomes an Arcade game.
Which is what gets peoples backs up.

The original post that started all this discussion, try as he might to justify it, was a troll post.
Hence, here we are.

Gran Turismo isn't about hardcore sim. racing.
That's why "graining" won't be included.
But I'm certain it will have tyre wear, and I question the difference to a GT driver.
Or for that matter, the average Joe playing PC2.

GT would benefit IMO from tyre pressures.
Will that be an option?
I'm sceptical.

But not having the additional effects from flat spotting and graining is liveable in a game like GT.

The animosity comes from people vigourously trying to defend "their game". It also comes from people misinterpreting that discussion and debate as a desire for all things to be in every game. Every game has it's faults and shortcomings, just don't take it personally when the discussion happens and everything will be fine. I played GT for many, many years and I don't have a problem with it being called simcade for example. It seems to fit in that category based on what I know about sim racing at this point. I'll still buy the game and a console to play it on and maybe even upgrade to a 4k HDR tv in the process, if the online portion of the game turns out to be worthwhile to me, simcade and all. That doesn't mean I'm blind to it's shortcomings in relation to simulation or that I'm unwilling to discuss it.

 

[Greek]

GTS will educate every player how? That's seems like homework.
I don't know if GTS will teach anything new to fans of the franchise. New players to the franchise, are going to jump in and play to find out what Gran Turismo is all about.

The GT series is educational. This has been true from the beginning.

GTS will be educational too. Some evidence: http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/driving/.

People also buy Ridge Racer and DriveClub to compete, cruise and collect cars and you can learn things in those games as well so I guess they must be simulators too . Heck, every game with cars is a simulator then.

The Ridge Racer and DriveClub teams never had as a goal the creation of a high-fidelity driving simulator.

The design determines what is a simulation or a simulator. Wishful thinking and ignorance do not make a computer program a simulator or a simulation.

A true simulator its very expensive, more than 300.000 dolares. What we do in our home (with ours video games) is just 'to play simulate'. And I agree, "simulator", "arcade", are vague concepts.

It is obvious that you do not know anything about how simulations and simulators are created and priced.

Also, those terms have definitions. Those words have etymologies. Ignorance is not bliss, dimassa19.

Gran Turismo isn't a proper sim racer. It never was and never will be, simple as that. Get over it. Play Project Cars if you crave simulation so badly instead of criticising GT's physics engine. I don't care if the physics are broken in certain areas, and I don't care if every little detail in regards to tyre deformation, heating, grip and wear isn't 100% accurate. That's not what GT offers, it offers an experience for car lovers of various skill levels. Most people aren't hardcore sim racers, they don't want full on simulation. They want fun and enjoyment. Simple as that.

If it is not one already, it will become one.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/sport_mode/
http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gtsport/license/

 

[sems4arsenal]

PCARS 2's hardcore sim elements are actually why both games can co-exist. Both will offer a different enough experience. One might favor the visual fidelity, Scapes, photomode, sports mode, livery editor, etc of GTSport (I'm in that camp) -- to PCARS's Live track, better FFB, better AI, dynamic TOD, etc.

I prefer short to medium races as I can't invest the time most of the time, hence why a lot of the features in PCARS don't appeal much to me. I'll eventually pick up both (as will most) so having both coming out will make it a stellar game for racers.

re-the release date, hope they're not dumb enough to release it pretty much the same day as Battlefront.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The Ridge Racer and DriveClub teams never had as a goal the creation of a high-fidelity driving simulator.

The design determines what is a simulation or a simulator. Wishful thinking and ignorance do not make a computer program a simulator or a simulation.

Actually it's outcome that determines whether it's a simulator or not, not the design. Designs are theoretical, outcomes are testable and measurable. In that vein, GTS would not qualify is a high fidelity simulator because so many elements of simulation are missing, particularly in the tire model, lack of meaningful damage, very limited tuning options etc. Wishful thinking and ignorance do not a simulator make indeed.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

The animosity comes from people vigourously trying to defend "their game". It also comes from people misinterpreting that discussion and debate as a desire for all things to be in every game. Every game has it's faults and shortcomings, just don't take it personally when the discussion happens and everything will be fine. I played GT for many, many years and I don't have a problem with it being called simcade for example. It seems to fit in that category based on what I know about sim racing at this point. I'll still buy the game and a console to play it on and maybe even upgrade to a 4k HDR tv in the process, if the online portion of the game turns out to be worthwhile to me, simcade and all. That doesn't mean I'm blind to it's shortcomings in relation to simulation or that I'm unwilling to discuss it.

Well, I have some agreement there as a general point.
But in the current climate, it is due to people defending "their game" because of a certain post.
And so they should.
It was a troll post from someone who should know better.
And it's been exasperated by others jumping on the bandwagon.
So while I'm don't agree with blindly defending GT, I understand why the last 24 hours in this thread has been a rocky road.

 

[MisterWaffles]

For as much boasting as Project Cars does about how they helped McLaren develop the ugliest supercar of all time, Gran Turismo was also used to set up GT-R GT3s at the Nurburgring VLN. Make of this what you will.

Not trying to defend anyone's physics here, just mentioning the fact that both series have made real-life contributions.

 

[Mr Tree]

More or less. Can take on the appearance of grains of rice. Generally happens when you push softer compound tires too hard when they are still cool. It chews them up in a way that it is unlikely the tires can ever get to optimal grip, because the tires generally don't wear or load evenly from that point on either.

Well, I have some agreement there as a general point.
But in the current climate, it is due to people defending "their game" because of a certain post.
And so they should.
It was a troll post from someone who should know better.
And it's been exasperated by others jumping on the bandwagon.
So while I'm don't agree with blindly defending GT, I understand why the last 24 hours in this thread has been a rocky road.

I'm sorry if you preceived it that way from my end.

I just went on a 'quest' for personal knowledge I am missing but eagerly look for the answer.

Why people don't understand simple concepts that could be explained via common sense.

Regardless from the fact if they should be in the game or not.

I should have restrained myself from doin but it's the big question I hope to find a satesfying answer to that question one day in my life.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I'm sorry if you preceived it that way from my end.

I just went on a 'quest' for personal knowledge I am missing but eagerly look for the answer.

Why people don't understand simple concepts that could be explained via common sense.

Regardless from the fact if they should be in the game or not.

I should have restrained myself from doin but it's the big question I hope to find a satesfying answer to that question one day in my life.

I do apologise.
I wasn't trying to single out all those that posted against GT regarding the current topic as purposely doing so callously.
That wasn't my intention.

 

[PzR Slim]

For as much boasting as Project Cars does about how they helped McLaren develop the ugliest supercar of all time, Gran Turismo was also used to set up GT-R GT3s at the Nurburgring VLN. Make of this what you will.

Not trying to defend anyone's physics here, just mentioning the fact that both series have made real-life contributions.

I think you are a little mixed up. It was the chief Mclaren Test Engineer who helped SMS ensure the car feels as correct in game as it does in the real world. As for GT being used to set up cars for the VLN, it was probably a nice bit of marketing. I'm not sure any race car engineer would learn anything from a game that doesn't allow you to change something as fundamental as tyre pressure.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, I have some agreement there as a general point.
But in the current climate, it is due to people defending "their game" because of a certain post.
And so they should.
It was a troll post from someone who should know better.
And it's been exasperated by others jumping on the bandwagon.
So while I'm don't agree with blindly defending GT, I understand why the last 24 hours in this thread has been a rocky road.

Why would someone defend their game against a troll? Why would anyone take a troll seriously to begin with?

For as much boasting as Project Cars does about how they helped McLaren develop the ugliest supercar of all time, Gran Turismo was also used to set up GT-R GT3s at the Nurburgring VLN. Make of this what you will.

Not trying to defend anyone's physics here, just mentioning the fact that both series have made real-life contributions.

That's a laughable claim at best, given that some settings in the game either didn't work, or worse, were backwards. Add to that, that tuning in GT is severely limited compared to what is on the actual car.

 

[TS050]

helped McLaren develop the ugliest supercar of all time

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I think you are a little mixed up. It was the chief Mclaren Test Engineer who helped SMS ensure the car feels as correct in game as it does in the real world. As for GT being used to set up cars for the VLN, it was probably a nice bit of marketing. I'm not sure any race car engineer would learn anything from a game that doesn't allow you to change something as fundamental as tyre pressure.

I do recall Kaz talking of using data to help with the setup of the M6 for his race in the Nurb. 24 hour.
Whether that's worth the paper it's written on is another matter I guess.

Why would someone defend their game against a troll? Why would anyone take a troll seriously to begin with?

C'mon now Mr. Penso, this is the internet we are talking about.

 

[marcvic]

View attachment 655039

Whether that is the ugliest of all time is debatable.

However, Gumpert Apollo, should for sure, be considered the ugliest name for a supercar ever

 

[MisterWaffles]

Whether that is the ugliest of all time is debatable.

However, Gumpert Apollo, should for sure, be considered the ugliest name for a supercar ever

The Mangusta puts up some strong competition.

 

[NixxxoN]

Reventón (Lamborghini) is the worst super car name of all time. Why? Its a spanish word that literally means "tire puncture". The name comes from a Miura bull as many Lambo names, but still, terrible choice.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

So no love for the UK Playstation Magazine calling a release of 16th Nov?
Too much of a boy who cried wolf?

 

[Aphelion]

So no love for the UK Playstation Magazine calling a release of 16th Nov?
Too much of a boy who cried wolf?

A bit yeah

 

[jm79]

So no love for the UK Playstation Magazine calling a release of 16th Nov?
Too much of a boy who cried wolf?

Yeah no one believes that stuff anymore

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Fair call.

 

[Greek]

Actually it's outcome that determines whether it's a simulator or not, not the design. Designs are theoretical, outcomes are testable and measurable. In that vein, GTS would not qualify is a high fidelity simulator because so many elements of simulation are missing, particularly in the tire model, lack of meaningful damage, very limited tuning options etc.

What most people compare, is the implementation of each design. What is superior in GTS and what is not? We will see.

All the problems that GT has will eventually be solved. The PD team does the best it can do under the current constraints. They also know very well that most of you are very impatient. That is why some things will not be available and/or possible in the blu-ray disc release version of GTS. The rest will come in the form of patches.

 

[PzR Slim]

I do recall Kaz talking of using data to help with the setup of the M6 for his race in the Nurb. 24 hour.
Whether that's worth the paper it's written on is another matter I guess.

Oh I remember the story as well but I lend it as much credence now as I did then. Kaz likes to say lots of things some of them are true. I'm really not sure any game I have ever played would be used by a race team in anyway other than to familiarise a driver with a circuit. And certainly they wouldn't use it to help set up the car.

 

[Milouse]

I just turned my PS4 on and my beta was gone, i'm currently re-downloading it. Did that happen already to someone, or did i make a wrong manipulation? (since i have to manually shut the game down every day in order to get my connection back in the game, that could be the cause).

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Oh I remember the story as well but I lend it as much credence now as I did then. Kaz likes to say lots of things some of them are true. I'm really not sure any game I have ever played would be used by a race team in anyway other than to familiarise a driver with a circuit. And certainly they wouldn't use it to help set up the car.

Yes, in the end I agree.
Although I don't think it's all that fanciful that the game could have been used as base data.

So while some embellishment may have been made, I'm not considering it to be all pure fiction.

 

[jm79]

Oh I remember the story as well but I lend it as much credence now as I did then. Kaz likes to say lots of things some of them are true. I'm really not sure any game I have ever played would be used by a race team in anyway other than to familiarise a driver with a circuit. And certainly they wouldn't use it to help set up the car.

Agreed, it's all marketing eh?

Though GT does have that real world Motorsports link with the Academy. That's something.

 

[PzR Slim]

Yes, in the end I agree.
Although I don't think it's all that fanciful that the game could have been used as base data.

So while some embellishment may have been made, I'm not considering it to be all pure fiction.

It's certainly possible but I'd be surprised.

Agreed, it's all marketing eh?

Though GT does have that real world Motorsports link with the Academy. That's something.

I think any statement that Game X was used to help a race team is defo marketing. However, when you see the statement driver/team X helped us develop our game then I think there is a much better chance that that did happen.

And GT Academy has been a huge success. It's a real good news story of our hobby.

 

[azeeza]

Did anyone say it was necessary? I was giving my opinion as to what qualifies as simulation in this genre. Outside of the GT Forums and in the "sim world", a huge amount of emphasis is place on the tire model in sims. It's talked about a lot, far more than I imagined when I ventured into that world. All games have cars the turn, drift, slide, brake etc. but what separates the average from the good from the great is the tire model. This is in no way necessarily related to enjoyment or personal preference, although it can
You can't just drop a bomb like this without a link!

It s from the official PlayStation Uk magazine ^^
True or false, it s on the second part of 'Fall'

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It's certainly possible but I'd be surprised.



I think any statement that Game X was used to help a race team is defo marketing. However, when you see the statement driver/team X helped us develop our game then I think there is a much better chance that that did happen.

And GT Academy has been a huge success. It's a real good news story of our hobby.

Yep, fair call I guess.
But I'm happy to roll with it to some extent.
I don't see it out of the realm of possibility.
Even if it worked the other way, and GTS benefited from data obtained while driving the M6.

I don't doubt somewhere, somehow, data was used to benefit either/both parties.

 

[MisterWaffles]

Yep, fair call I guess.
But I'm happy to roll with it to some extent.
I don't see it out of the realm of possibility.
Even if it worked the other way, and GTS benefited from data obtained while driving the M6.

I don't doubt somewhere, somehow, data was used to benefit either/both parties.

Some digging later I found the exact use of GT6 in real life:

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt6-used-to-tune-schulze-motorsports-nurburgring-gt-r/

Looks like GT6's (inaccurate? Idk.) suspension model was used to set up the GT-R GT3 Kaz and the Schulze family used for the VLN race.

Might I add they got top-qualifying time in their class according to the in-game description of the GT-R.

IMO there is merit to their claim.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Some digging later I found the exact use of GT6 in real life:

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt6-used-to-tune-schulze-motorsports-nurburgring-gt-r/

Looks like GT6's (inaccurate? Idk.) suspension model was used to set up the GT-R GT3 Kaz and the Schulze family used for the VLN race.

Might I add they got top-qualifying time in their class according to the in-game description of the GT-R.

IMO there is merit to their claim.

Camber didn't work, ride height was backwards, tire pressure was not modeled in the game and aero was borked, among other things. Please explain how there could be any merit to that claim.

 

[MisterWaffles]

Please explain how there could be any merit to that claim.

If you can take a broken suspension model, apply the numbers to a real car and set a fastest lap, there has to be something that went right. Either that or the other GT3 drivers were sleeping that VLN.