Gran Turismo Sport Physics Thread (Poll)

[Mike_grpA]

GT's physics on the PS4 can actually go more indepth sim but the thing is it needs to be accessible to everyone, optimised for both wheels and controllers WELL and most of all, it must be inviting.

My issue with Project CARS (Pretty much the only Sim I've tried properly) is that despite the game having indepth physics though they tried to be accessible, it's the least bit inviting and it's frustrating to play on a controller. If you're trying to attract more people into the world of Sims then that's not really the way I rate.

Compared to GT and Forza (which I've been touching on lately here and there) they're inviting to tinker with. Especially with GT and its little trinkets like the Apex book from GT5 and other sources. However I think that with departure from physical game manuals, on the fly guides and the choice of levels of depth depending on how deep the player wants to go should show their faces.
That way the game doesn't lose its pick up and play ability so to speak and specialty of setting up a beast of a car remains.


I hope I explained myself properly.

I have steering wheel but prefer to play game with DS3 (pick up and play, don't need to pick wheel from box) Also my dad like to play GT, we both play GT from 99 and he drive GT on X and square from the beginning and he tell me that cars are to sensitive on analog stick for his taste (so I need to turn TC on 2-3 for him so he could drive car with more than 500 hp at all)... Am driving on analog and TC 0. Even when my friend come to me i beet them all with 30+ second when we use car with more that 4500 hp because they can control car property... So yeah game should stay in balance for both wheel and DS3 users...

GT will still be fine to play with a controller, no matter how much they advance the physics, because GT has always had assists in place for the controller. You can't turn the front wheels past their grip limit with a controller, if you slam the stick to one side, the game will only allow the front wheels to get to the point where they start to slip, and will auto adjust to keep them at that optimal point.

This is the main difference between GT and Pcars in terms of controller use. Pcars doesn't have this assist, so when you move the stick, you can actually turn the wheels past the point where they lose grip, and you have to control that slip yourself. SMS have already said they'll change this in Pcars 2, because heaps of controller users hated it.

If you have a wheel, try this out to see what I mean: Use your controller, pick whatever car and track, build up some speed on a straight, and slam the stick all the way to one side, then switch to the wheel, same car and track, and do the same thing with the wheel, turn it to full lock one way as quickly as you can. With the stick your car will turn off the track, riding the limit of front grip, and with the wheel you'll turn the wheels immediately past their grip threshold and the car will just go pretty much straight ahead.

So with the way the controller is assisted in GT, having more realistic tyre physics won't make it like Pcars with the stick, so controller users won't be suffering.

 

[TayeezSA]

Another point I'd like to add.

If GT does go more indepth sim, then really PD needs to make better use of the license system. Let us experience the physics fully and at the same time learn more about how certain cars handle and why certain cars handle in a certain way in certain instances.

Licenses shouldn't just be about "Get from point A to B in this time limit". Rather now it should be, "Don't spin the car" "This is how a car with finished tyres will feel, get to the pits without losing control" , " Manage your way through these extreme weather conditions (Driveclub spec) on these tyres"

Give different situations and different conditions. Like how Advanced Driving Academies do it.

 

[cutmeamango]

Of course that's what I meant. Since when can "an optimum pressure" be multiple optimal pressures? Is it even really optimal if there are several of them?

There is an (one, for those that find this difficult) optimum pressure for any given set of conditions. When those conditions change, the optimum pressure may change as well. So far, I don't think a car and tyre has been developed where one pressure is optimum for all conditions, and so there are a range of pressures and which one is optimal at any given moment depends on what the prevailing conditions are. Arguably even the driver and his or her style makes a difference, although it's usually so small that it's unlikely to matter.

Which means that in general terms, there is not an (one) optimal pressure for any car that remains optimal regardless of other factors. And as there would then be multiple "optimum" pressures, there is in fact no general optimum at all.

Not one.
None.
Zero.

Of course there is an optimal operational pressure range (due load, average velocity and of course expected increase during operation).
Tires are made to keep even contact across the tread for maximum expected tread life (and fuel consumption!) by being at a determined pressure range from rest (cold inflation) to normal use (less that 130-160km/h for utility/passanger road cars). You can and should go check your car's placard or wheel brochure if you don't have the original set.
Or tire manufacturers and ISO tire standards are just joking around about it.

And yes, during a race situation you'd want your tires to heat their surface up as evenly as possible too.

-----

On the subject of tire models (not versed):

rFPro is using TameTire by Michelin ([EDIT] termomechanical brush model based [EDIT]). That's a nice presentation where they compare their new model with Pacejka's and real life measurements. You'll notice that they are much closer with this approximation model to measured behaviour. But this is likely still very expensive computationally.
rFactor2 [EDIT] uses a rigid ring brush model [EDIT]. PCars' Seta Tire Model seems to be an agglutination of [EDIT]FEA model/rigid ring brush model for carcass/tread and contact patch?[EDIT]. Reiza uses the Pacejka's Magic Formula model from rFactor1 days. [EDIT]Assetto Corsa's some dynamic/non-steady single slip brush/formula mix? LFS is some pre-simulated physical modelling (non-brush?) parametrization? (Thanks @super_gt)[EDIT]

And all that brings me to the "simcade/broken model!" idea and some food for thought (don't read too much into about which tire model is the best or not...) in the whole subjective aspect of perception of what is "behaving correctly". [EDIT]And another one.[EDIT]

In the end I share the desire for increasingly closer approximations be it in the tire model or universal engine (and consequently, options of adjustment) and hope PD has read their own "Beyond the Apex" book.

 

[Imari]

Of course there is an optimal operational pressure range (due load, average velocity and of course expected increase during operation).

Which is exactly the point I was making. Pressures in game need to be adjustable within a range. Having a single "optimal" pressure for every situation like GT6 does makes a mockery of one of the most fundamental tuning parameters.

And all that brings me to the "simcade/broken model!" idea and some food for thought (don't read too much into about which tire model is the best or not...) in the whole subjective aspect of perception of what is "behaving correctly".

We don't have access to your C: drive.

 

[Ettick]

Of course they should allow you to adjust tire pressure and make asymmetrical setups, but they should improve the suspension and tire models first so tire pressure would be realistically simulated, otherwise it'd be broken like camber and kinda pointless to add in the first place.

 

[SVX]

Assetto Corsa physics with a simcade option for others to make GT accessible for everybody.

Basically ToCA3, then.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

GT will still be fine to play with a controller, no matter how much they advance the physics, because GT has always had assists in place for the controller. You can't turn the front wheels past their grip limit with a controller, if you slam the stick to one side, the game will only allow the front wheels to get to the point where they start to slip, and will auto adjust to keep them at that optimal point.

This is the main difference between GT and Pcars in terms of controller use. Pcars doesn't have this assist, so when you move the stick, you can actually turn the wheels past the point where they lose grip, and you have to control that slip yourself. SMS have already said they'll change this in Pcars 2, because heaps of controller users hated it.

If you have a wheel, try this out to see what I mean: Use your controller, pick whatever car and track, build up some speed on a straight, and slam the stick all the way to one side, then switch to the wheel, same car and track, and do the same thing with the wheel, turn it to full lock one way as quickly as you can. With the stick your car will turn off the track, riding the limit of front grip, and with the wheel you'll turn the wheels immediately past their grip threshold and the car will just go pretty much straight ahead.

So with the way the controller is assisted in GT, having more realistic tyre physics won't make it like Pcars with the stick, so controller users won't be suffering.

It does not happen in all situation though, the steering angle limiter is dynamic in GT ( depending on many factors, driver input, slip angle, speed, G load etc )

Pcars needs something similar to GT for console stick user, preferably adjustable in strength/sensitivity ( GT 5 and 6 has it )

 

[kikie]

Basically ToCA3, then.

I don't know. Toca 2 Touring Cars was the last Codemaster sim I bought.

 

[super_gt]

On the subject of tire models:
rFPro is using TameTire by Michelin. That's a nice presentation where they compare their new model with Pacejka's and real life measurements. You'll notice that they are much closer with this approximation model to measured behaviour. But this is likely still very expensive computationally.
rFactor2 [EDIT]looks like it uses a rigid ring brush model[/EDIT]. PCars' Seta Tire Model seems to be an agglutination of multibody dynamic model for carcass and brush model for contact patch. Reiza uses the Pacejka's Magic Formula model from rFactor1 days.
And all that brings me to the "simcade/broken model!" idea and some food for thought (don't read too much into about which tire model is the best or not...) in the whole subjective aspect of perception of what is "behaving correctly".

You forget this

Hopefully this will come by the summer as an update

 

[SVX]

I don't know. Toca 2 Touring Cars was the last Codemaster sim I bought.

In the settings you can opt for simulation handling, damage and gravel traps. It's been said the simulation handling has a physics engine rivaling PCARS.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Hoping it is the "most realistic" driving simulator at time of release. Also would like a high-end GT branded direct drive wheel and pedals with force feedback to experience it.

 

[Mike_grpA]

It does not happen in all situation though, the steering angle limiter is dynamic in GT ( depending on many factors, driver input, slip angle, speed, G load etc )

Pcars needs something similar to GT for console stick user, preferably adjustable in strength/sensitivity ( GT 5 and 6 has it )

Yeah it allows a small amount of slip, and seemingly the amount of slip it allows depends on speed. The faster you go, the more it allows, but never much.

I definitely agree that Pcars needs that kind of assist though. It's not just GT that does this, Forza, Grid, Dirt, Driveclub, basically every other racing game assists the controller to prevent too much front slip. SMS were stubborn in their thinking that it was an artificial enhancement and took away from the realism, but with the tiny amount of accuracy the stick affords, you simply can't have it directly controlling the wheels. Pcars is playable on a controller, but it's a bit of a mess compared to other racing games, and requires huge compromise in the settings like speed sensitivity and such to achieve decent usability.

 

[MCFerocious]

In my view the physics on GT6 are just incredible. Very very accurate even with just a humble DFGT wheel. And also, is it not the case that Polyphony mentioned using the physics model of GT6 for GT7? That in itself shows how confident Polyphony are of GT6's physics. They don't need to change it because it is already extremely accurate.

I also love the physics of DriveClub. Not only the physics but also the graphics on these two games (DriveClub and GT6) are just incredible. Amazing use of vibrant colours are a real treat.

People should generally be much more appreciative of these awesome driving sims we are blessed to enjoy. A lot of time and effort from some very clever people go into these sims. I reckon a lot of the developers read GT Planet threads like these.

See you all soon gents.

 

[Mike_grpA]

In my view the physics on GT6 are just incredible. Very very accurate even with just a humble DFGT wheel. And also, is it not the case that Polyphony mentioned using the physics model of GT6 for GT7? That in itself shows how confident Polyphony are of GT6's physics. They don't need to change it because it is already extremely accurate.

GT6 has alright physics, but they're definitely not "very very accurate", they're actually lagging well behind literally every other sim on the market. If PD did in fact plan on just copy-pasting GT6 physics to the current gen, they would continue to lose sales to the others, because GT6 physics against current gen games would be sub-par, and considering they are claiming GTS will have the most realistic physics of any sim currently availabe, I imagine they will have been spending a massive amount of time on it. They absolutely do need to change it from GT6, as GT6 is definitely not accurate, let alone extremely accurate.

I reckon a lot of the developers read GT Planet threads like these.

I guess that's why the Kaz Q and A was such a roaring success lol.

 

[dolande]

My take is that physics will be accessible for a great population of people so don't expect earth shattering stuff in that department. I understand what a lot of you are saying about giving options to the user but the point is that creating a very accurate physics engine requires time and money. So why do that if most of the people will use the dumb down options?. Only PD knows the answer depending on the people they are targeting

 

[Mike_grpA]

But if people are not to expect "earth shattering stuff" (read: realism) in the physics, why are PD advertising GTS' physics on their website as being the most realistic physics in a racing sim ever?

 

[Johnnypenso]

My take is that physics will be accessible for a great population of people so don't expect earth shattering stuff in that department. I understand what a lot of you are saying about giving options to the user but the point is that creating a very accurate physics engine requires time and money. So why do that if most of the people will use the dumb down options?. Only PD knows the answer depending on the people they are targeting

But if people are not to expect "earth shattering stuff" (read: realism) in the physics, why are PD advertising GTS' physics on their website as being the most realistic physics in a racing sim ever?

Tree'd by Mike.

It's PD setting the bar and creating the expectations, not us. What can you expect when you see things like, "totally revamped physics engine", and "The true beauty of Gran Turismo SPORT goes much deeper, as it will forever change the way driving games are seen. It will redefine the very definition of “gaming” and “motorsports.”, and they tell us they are going to help shape motorsport for the next 100 years. You don't shape motorsport for 100 years with wonky physics and basic elements not working as they should and not even up to the standards set a decade ago in some pc sims.

 

[dolande]

But if people are not to expect "earth shattering stuff" (read: realism) in the physics, why are PD advertising GTS' physics on their website as being the most realistic physics in a racing sim ever?

Marketing probably. It sound a lot better than the most realistic physics in any simcade ever.

There's a balance between enjoyment and frustration for every game and sims tend to be enjoyable only for the committed crowd.

Boy I still remember the GT3 days when in rally mode I was able to pull incredible drifts while taking the hairpins. In the other hand GT4 was so hard to drive with a controller I never enjoin it the same. PD and all other developers know this and it all depends which user they want to target and time/money to develop the game. Sure with lots of time and money they should be able to please everybody.

I think that people that enjoined GT and are ready for a step above that may be better off moving to different games (pcars or pc based sims) than waiting for PD to do it. I just did that with pcars

 

[Samus]

But if people are not to expect "earth shattering stuff" (read: realism) in the physics, why are PD advertising GTS' physics on their website as being the most realistic physics in a racing sim ever?

Marketing. GT6 "redefined the racing genre forever" if you believe their marketing spiel.

 

[Ettick]

I'm pretty sure the game that truly defined the racing genre was Big Rigs Over The Road Racing

 

[Samus]

I'm pretty sure the game that truly defined the racing genre was Big Rigs Over The Road Racing

Well I suppose like that game in one way GT6 did attempt to redefine the racing genre, but not in a good way. Just a good job it didn't catch on, or most racing events worldwide would be catchup events. Not sure how they'd choose the rabbit and the chasee though.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Marketing probably. It sound a lot better than the most realistic physics in any simcade ever.

Marketing. GT6 "redefined the racing genre forever" if you believe their marketing spiel.

The "redefined the racing genre" claim is so vague that you could argue it's true, and is obviously a marketing line. The GTS claims of realism are so specific and direct that they aren't just throwing out marketing buzz-words, they are making a legitimate claim. If that is just a marketing line to lure buyers, it's a poor strategy, as it'll be obvious shortly after release if it's a load of bull, and it will only serve to turn more people off the franchise.

Now I understand that it would be unrealistic (pardon the pun) to expect GTS to be literally the most realistic sim ever, but I reckon Kaz and his team probably believe they are making a genuine attempt at a realistic sim, going off those lines. The talk of GT5 and GT6 physics by PD were always about moving the series forward, and being the most realistic GT ever, and now it seems they're targeting other sims.

I obviously don't expect GTS to have more accurate physics than Rfactor 2, for example, but I do think they are somewhat genuine with that line. If their claims turned out to be true, and somehow they'd made a more genuine simulator than Rf2, AC, iRacing, and the like, then I think that would be an indication that the world was about to end. lol.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

What are the odds, Kaz and some of his staff have played PC/console sims like Pcars and Assetto Corsa ? PD surely knows AC will come on console as well.
IF they have tasted the rivals work, considering they are Japanese, with their work culture, they would not sit on their lap Unless their design goals for next GT is not in the same realm as Pcars and AC ( physics wise )

Maybe arcade and simulation menu in GT will work as it should on next GT

 

[MrGrado]

GT will still be fine to play with a controller, no matter how much they advance the physics, because GT has always had assists in place for the controller. You can't turn the front wheels past their grip limit with a controller, if you slam the stick to one side, the game will only allow the front wheels to get to the point where they start to slip, and will auto adjust to keep them at that optimal point.

This is the main difference between GT and Pcars in terms of controller use. Pcars doesn't have this assist, so when you move the stick, you can actually turn the wheels past the point where they lose grip, and you have to control that slip yourself. SMS have already said they'll change this in Pcars 2, because heaps of controller users hated it.

If you have a wheel, try this out to see what I mean: Use your controller, pick whatever car and track, build up some speed on a straight, and slam the stick all the way to one side, then switch to the wheel, same car and track, and do the same thing with the wheel, turn it to full lock one way as quickly as you can. With the stick your car will turn off the track, riding the limit of front grip, and with the wheel you'll turn the wheels immediately past their grip threshold and the car will just go pretty much straight ahead.

So with the way the controller is assisted in GT, having more realistic tyre physics won't make it like Pcars with the stick, so controller users won't be suffering.

Almost completely wrong.

You can turn the front wheels past their grip limit and there will not be any auto adjusting to achieve or maintain max grip.

While you don't have the entire access of movement of the front wheels available at all times in GT6, the major practical difference between GT6 and Pcars, using controllers, is the absence of analogue moment at centre playing Pcars.

Lurching violently towards a wall is not necessary.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Almost completely wrong.

You can turn the front wheels past their grip limit and there will not be any auto adjusting to achieve or maintain max grip.

While you don't have the entire access of movement of the front wheels available at all times in GT6, the major practical difference between GT6 and Pcars, using controllers, is the absence of analogue moment at centre playing Pcars.

Lurching violently towards a wall is not necessary.

Lol no auto adjusting the front wheels? You obviously haven't played the game with a wheel then. It's a well known fact that almost every racing game aids the controller in this way. You can't turn the wheels onto full lock at speed with a controller, it's impossible.

Edit: Here's an old thread on the matter:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...heel-which-has-more-steering-capacity.307628/

 

[MrGrado]

I have played with a wheel so obviously your wrong to suggest I haven't. You only need the mental acumen to move your thumb 1mm when steering at max lock to realise that max lock is not where max grip is at and that there is no auto adjustments to achieve or maintain max grip.

I know you can't turn the front wheels onto full lock at speed with a controller, but it's also not practical to that.

 

[super_gt]

Marketing probably. It sound a lot better than the most realistic physics in any simcade ever.

 

[Tornado]

It can have the most advanced physics in the world and it doesn't mean anything if the series continues its trend of only casual interest in accurately replicating the stats it feeds into the physics engine.

 

[dolande]

What are the odds, Kaz and some of his staff have played PC/console sims like Pcars and Assetto Corsa ? PD surely knows AC will come on console as well.
IF they have tasted the rivals work, considering they are Japanese, with their work culture, they would not sit on their lap Unless their design goals for next GT is not in the same realm as Pcars and AC ( physics wise )

Maybe arcade and simulation menu in GT will work as it should on next GT

My thought exactly

 

[gtracedriver1]

Ever taken your car to a track? No?
Ever checked your tyre pressures in real life to make sure that they're correct? No?
Ever owned a car? No?

That'd be why then. Once you get a real car and an opportunity to drive it on track, maybe you'll understand why I said:



Even if someone were to decide to leave the pressures at factory standards, they're a moron if they take any car on track without actually checking and thinking about changing their tyre pressures.

You check it for safety, along with your brakes and seatbelts, but it's also incredibly important in how it makes the car drive. Most race tracks are much, much smoother than a road, so you need far less bump absorption in the sidewall. Running higher pressures is essentially stiffening up your overall suspension, as well as reducing the amount of lateral deflection of the sidewall. It makes the car feel more responsive, and it just makes it straight up easier to drive.

Unless you're massively overinflating your tyres to the point where you're seriously reducing your contact patch, it's an incredibly useful adjustment that you have to do as part of your safety checks anyway. Honestly, it takes you all of a minute at the service station to put your tyres at 35psi instead of 30.

If you don't want to do it then fine, but then you're not treating the game as a sim. If you're adjusting suspension without first having at least attempted to optimise your tyre pressures, then you're wasting your time.

Wait a minute. You are saying every race driver uses different tire pressure according to their setups ????

In racing series. Tire is same for everyone and tire pressure specified by manufacture. They are not allowed to change it. Even tire blankets they have the same rules for how long it is suppose to say. Rest depends on the driver to get optimal heat level into it. Playing game on stock setting does not make a game sim or arcade it depends on the core gameplay. Which is the most important factor.