Gran Turismo Sport Physics Thread (Poll)

[Johnnypenso]

Wait a minute. You are saying every race driver uses different tire pressure according to their setups ????

In racing series. Tire is same for everyone and tire pressure specified by manufacture. They are not allowed to change it. Even tire blankets they have the same rules for how long it is suppose to say. Rest depends on the driver to get optimal heat level into it. Playing game on stock setting does not make a game sim or arcade it depends on the core gameplay. Which is the most important factor.

You couldn't be more wrong. Yes there are recommended pressures and tire blankets are spec'd. Beyond that it's up to the teams to get the most out of the car/tires by varying air pressure according to the track layout, ambient temperature, track temperature, overall grip levels, race length etc. and of course combined with the car setup variables like camber, caster etc. Tire pressure tuning is a huge part of race car setup. Even when I raced karts back in the dark ages, tire pressures were a closely guarded secret.

 

[Imari]

Wait a minute. You are saying every race driver uses different tire pressure according to their setups ????

I'm saying the the engineers have the ability to modify it. They do not all run different tyre pressures, but they can, and sometimes they do.

That's why F1 introduced minimum pressures and cambers, because some teams were flirting with destroying the tyres by running extreme values.

In racing series. Tire is same for everyone and tire pressure specified by manufacture. They are not allowed to change it. Even tire blankets they have the same rules for how long it is suppose to say.

No, it depends on the race series. In casual track day stuff, you run whatever pressures you want. As far as I know, Spec Miata also lets you run whatever pressures you want. In F1, they have minimum tyre pressures but not a maximum, at least not that I'm aware of. I believe V8 Supercars also have a minimum.

They do this because the ideal pressure depends partly on the prevailing conditions. 19psi may be ideal for clear day with a track temperature of 40°C, but sub-optimal for a cloudy day with wind and a track temperature of 15°C. The ability to adapt to conditions without risking damage to the tyre is important.

Many racing series do not have control tyres either. Some do. It's becoming more common recently, but it's not every single racing series that exists.

Would you like to give an example of a series with a control tyre where the tyre pressure is a designated value, not a range? I'm not aware of one, and it's certainly not correct to claim that all racing series are treated this way.

Playing game on stock setting does not make a game sim or arcade it depends on the core gameplay. Which is the most important factor.

I didn't say that it did. I said that not using fundamental simulation components of the game means you're not treating it as a simulation. Your tyres are arguably the most important single component of the car for racing. If you're going to just ignore them then the accuracy of the rest of the simulation becomes of limited value to you.

Seriously mate, it's pretty clear that you have no real idea how this stuff works. That's fine, we all had to start somewhere. But tyres and pressures are incredibly important, and if you ever get a sports car and start fiddling around with them you'll be able to actually feel the difference that they make. You can continue to argue about it from a position of ignorance, or you can take it from people who actually know that you're missing out on a lot by dismissing this very important aspect of tuning.

I suggest that if you can you get your hands on a decent sim that allows tyre pressure modifications and play around with it. Preferably one with tyre temperature display as well. If you can't get a real car, then at least a decent sim is going to give you some exposure to what's actually going on, and how it feels when you start to fiddle around with pressures.

 

[1241Penguin]

I felt a difference in my bicycle before and after I inflated its tires.

 

[Imari]

What are the odds, Kaz and some of his staff have played PC/console sims like Pcars and Assetto Corsa ? PD surely knows AC will come on console as well.

Probably fairly high. I know some of them played the seminal simulators back in the day, like Indy 500 and F1GP.

IF they have tasted the rivals work, considering they are Japanese, with their work culture, they would not sit on their lap.

Ah, reverse racism.

The Japanese are just as capable as anyone else of failing to beat their competitors, or simply not caring if they do. The work culture thing is just culture. I had a conversation with a Japanese guy once where I asked about why they work such late hours if they're not getting paid overtime. "It's expected", he told me, "but mostly we just save some work for when the boss walks past so that we look busy all the time. Once the boss goes home, we can go home."

I expect that like a Western country there's a range, there's people who are extraordinarily productive, and there are people that are not. The expectation in Japan is that you're physically at the company and appear to be working for longer, but I know for a fact that at least some Japanese take this as a hint that they should take their time doing their work, rather than try and cram more into a day.

Stereotypes are rarely particularly useful or accurate when trying to characterise an entire group. They're not all brilliant mathematicians.

 

[dolande]

"It's expected", he told me, "but mostly we just save some work for when the boss walks past so that we look busy all the time. Once the boss goes home, we can go home."

People are people after all

 

[AleksandarSRB]

I did not play project cars but form what i saw on youtube top speed is broken. LMP cars such are BMW V12 LMR and Bentley Speed 8 barely hit 304 km/h on Mulsane, and in real life they hit 340+ km/h. Also GT1 cars hit 300 km/h (F1 GTR long tail, CLK LM) and in real life they hit 317 for F1 and 320 km/h for CLK. So for me GT top speed physic is more realiatic.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I did not play project cars but form what i sawvon youtube top speed is broken. LMP cars such are BMW V12 LMR and Bentley Speed 8 barely hit 304 km/h on Mulsane, and in real life they hit 340+ km/h. Also GT1 cars hit 300 km/h (F1 GTR long tail, CLK LM) and in real life they hit 317 for F1 and 320 km/h for CLK. So dor me GT top speed physic is more realiatic.

There are many tuning options in Project Cars which affect top speed to a great degree like ride height, brake duct openings, aero etc. Unless you have the actual tuning parameters from the cars on Youtube you can't say for sure what is happening with the physics of PCars and whether it's accurate or not. For all you know they might be running max aero with the brake ducts wide open and the top speeds fit perfectly.

I looked on Youtube and the first video I checked had this:

 

[Bigbazz]

Kaz wants everyone to take his game seriously as "The Real Driving Simulator" and he acts as if he really believes it is a real industry leading simulation.. With that in mind it is absolutely important that the next title includes adjustable tyre pressures!

Hard to take him seriously as it is, I love the passion he has for his game but at the same time it's hard to take him seriously when he talks about the simulation aspect and accuracy. Do I want Assetto Corsa physics? I don't, I want them to pursue their own physics, we don't move forward by copying what other games have and calling it a day, even the physics in Assetto Corsa itself have changed a great deal since it first became available.

Whether it is simcade/simulation is a silly way to look at it, since a good simulation with driving assists would be very easy to drive, half of the time GT5/6 had over the top difficulty due to extreme and unrealistic handling behavior in certain situations, often highly exaggerated characteristics (such as off-throttle oversteer). If you go in from the beginning aiming to make an accurate simulation then it is easy to tune that to be usable by lesser skillled users via driving aids, but if you go in from the beginning and make watered down "semi-sim" you're never going to be able to achieve realism.

I've seen some suggestings about GT3/4 physics... Well god I hope not, we want progress and not clinging to the flawed iterations of the past just because people have nostalgia ties..

 

[kolio]

I am not sure anybody could really agrue against this.

 

[Samus]

I did not play project cars but form what i saw on youtube top speed is broken. LMP cars such are BMW V12 LMR and Bentley Speed 8 barely hit 304 km/h on Mulsane, and in real life they hit 340+ km/h. Also GT1 cars hit 300 km/h (F1 GTR long tail, CLK LM) and in real life they hit 317 for F1 and 320 km/h for CLK. So dor me GT top speed physic is more realiatic.

Even if what you were saying about pCARS was true, I don't see how GT (GT6 specifically) top speed physics are more realistic when it has the exact opposite issue, cars hitting speeds way beyond what they would in reality. They would both be as bad as each other, just at the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

[Imari]

I don't, I want them to pursue their own physics, we don't move forward by copying what other games have and calling it a day, even the physics in Assetto Corsa itself have changed a great deal since it first became available.

To be fair, Game Stock Car has done very well by taking rF1 physics as a base and working from there. If you're behind the curve and looking to make the jump up to competing with the big boys, you could do worse than using an established physics simulation as a starting point.

I'd like Polyphony to develop their own detailed simulation too, one that is capable of competing with the likes of AC, iRacing and rF2. Unfortunately, it's looking less and less likely. Partially because it would be a pretty big leap for them, and partially because with 1200+ cars that sort of detail simply isn't possible without way more staff than they have.

 

[super_gt]

I will appreciate your help guys,please like this post in Facebook

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edit:Thanks for the support @Johnnypenso

 

[gtracedriver1]

I'm saying the the engineers have the ability to modify it. They do not all run different tyre pressures, but they can, and sometimes they do.

That's why F1 introduced minimum pressures and cambers, because some teams were flirting with destroying the tyres by running extreme values.



No, it depends on the race series. In casual track day stuff, you run whatever pressures you want. As far as I know, Spec Miata also lets you run whatever pressures you want. In F1, they have minimum tyre pressures but not a maximum, at least not that I'm aware of. I believe V8 Supercars also have a minimum.

They do this because the ideal pressure depends partly on the prevailing conditions. 19psi may be ideal for clear day with a track temperature of 40°C, but sub-optimal for a cloudy day with wind and a track temperature of 15°C. The ability to adapt to conditions without risking damage to the tyre is important.

Many racing series do not have control tyres either. Some do. It's becoming more common recently, but it's not every single racing series that exists.

Would you like to give an example of a series with a control tyre where the tyre pressure is a designated value, not a range? I'm not aware of one, and it's certainly not correct to claim that all racing series are treated this way.



I didn't say that it did. I said that not using fundamental simulation components of the game means you're not treating it as a simulation. Your tyres are arguably the most important single component of the car for racing. If you're going to just ignore them then the accuracy of the rest of the simulation becomes of limited value to you.

Seriously mate, it's pretty clear that you have no real idea how this stuff works. That's fine, we all had to start somewhere. But tyres and pressures are incredibly important, and if you ever get a sports car and start fiddling around with them you'll be able to actually feel the difference that they make. You can continue to argue about it from a position of ignorance, or you can take it from people who actually know that you're missing out on a lot by dismissing this very important aspect of tuning.

I suggest that if you can you get your hands on a decent sim that allows tyre pressure modifications and play around with it. Preferably one with tyre temperature display as well. If you can't get a real car, then at least a decent sim is going to give you some exposure to what's actually going on, and how it feels when you start to fiddle around with pressures.

I have never heard any race driver or teams say that TBH. Something like because of tire pressure they lost time or got it wrong. The regulations are same for everyone and I am not sure they mess with it at all. For example any team fitting in softer tires probably will be 0.5 or 1sec quicker. A driver may make little difference but it is more or less same across the board. They just talk about different tire compound and they talk like how long they will last in race by studying data they collect for practice sessions. Therefore I cannot see how having tire pressure make the game better sim or not. Shift2 I believe has that option but it is a horrible game.

If you are talking about realism and in racing they should then have proper tire wear during races. Like a 10lap races 4 quick burst in soft and 6 controlled laps in harder tires. where tire grip varies depending on wear in those 10 laps. Even player can drive accordingly to have 5 laps on each or may be he is locking up brakes pretty much every corner due to cold tires or careless driving which will destroy and compromise the race pace. These thing will be good instead and should be optional to make game more realistic.

 

[girabyt3]

Another thing I would consider to improve the physics would be more aerodynamic//downforce effects. Like Nascar blowovers and what happened to Mercedes at LeMans 1999. Another example would be Anthony Davidson's 2012 crash

 

[Scaff]

I have never heard any race driver or teams say that TBH. Something like because of tire pressure they lost time or got it wrong. The regulations are same for everyone and I am not sure they mess with it at all. For example any team fitting in softer tires probably will be 0.5 or 1sec quicker. A driver may make little difference but it is more or less same across the board. They just talk about different tire compound and they talk like how long they will last in race by studying data they collect for practice sessions.

Then I would guess you have spent almost no time with race drivers or teams; and I would suggest you spend some time reading up on vehicle dynamics as you are most certainly missing quite bit of knowledge in regard to tyre pressure and its effect on tyre behaviour.

If you run softer tyres you will need to change your cold tyre pressure (as a softer tyre is going to heat up quicker and heat up more), if you change any aspect of your suspension geometry (caster, camber, toe, etc) you are going to need to do the same, if the tracks air or surface temperature changes you will need to do the same, and if the air humidity changes or it rains, etc.

To quote Milliken & Milliken's Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (p54):

"Tire pressure is one of the easiest and most common changes made in setting up a race car. The range of permissible pressures is frequently set by the tire manufacturer generally for reasons of durability. Pressure affects the tire in several significant ways."

Therefore I cannot see how having tire pressure make the game better sim or not. Shift2 I believe has that option but it is a horrible game.

That's because you quite clearly don't understand how tyre pressures affect a tyre and the vehicle they are attached to.

If you are talking about realism and in racing they should then have proper tire wear during races. Like a 10lap races 4 quick burst in soft and 6 controlled laps in harder tires. where tire grip varies depending on wear in those 10 laps. Even player can drive accordingly to have 5 laps on each or may be he is locking up brakes pretty much every corner due to cold tires or careless driving which will destroy and compromise the race pace. These thing will be good instead and should be optional to make game more realistic.

And without tyre pressures you have no ability to manage any of those factors (and seem to have some odd ideas about how long tyres really last - six laps for a hard tyre! What car would that be fitted to and what track?).

 

[Mike_grpA]

I have never heard any race driver or teams say that TBH. Something like because of tire pressure they lost time or got it wrong. The regulations are same for everyone and I am not sure they mess with it at all. For example any team fitting in softer tires probably will be 0.5 or 1sec quicker. A driver may make little difference but it is more or less same across the board. They just talk about different tire compound and they talk like how long they will last in race by studying data they collect for practice sessions. Therefore I cannot see how having tire pressure make the game better sim or not. Shift2 I believe has that option but it is a horrible game.

If you are talking about realism and in racing they should then have proper tire wear during races. Like a 10lap races 4 quick burst in soft and 6 controlled laps in harder tires. where tire grip varies depending on wear in those 10 laps. Even player can drive accordingly to have 5 laps on each or may be he is locking up brakes pretty much every corner due to cold tires or careless driving which will destroy and compromise the race pace. These thing will be good instead and should be optional to make game more realistic.

You can't have watched much motorsport if you've never seen any racing drivers or team members talking about tyre pressure influencing lap times lol.

How about last year in F1? Pirelli was worried about their tyres suffering at the higher than expected loads they were being subjected to, and so to be on the safe side, they upped the minimum tyre pressure specs, which the teams hated. Many engineers, and drivers, complained that with the new minimum pressure, the tyres didn't have enough flex, and were starting to balloon. This made the contact patch smaller, and also reduced the tyres' ability to absorb energy, forcing the teams to soften the suspension to accommodate.

That's just one single example of one way that tyre pressure changes can have a big impact on performance. In a series that doesn't impose such strict minimum pressures, you'll find teams up and down the pitlane using different pressures to each other, due to differences in their car's design, the suspension geometry, the set up of various parts, and the team's strategy.

A racing game that doesn't simulate air pressure in the tyres, and allow users control over that pressure, is no more a sim than a racing game that doesn't simulate aerodynamics, or one that doesn't simulate suspension geometry...

Considering GT6's tyre model doesn't simulate air pressure, the aero model is a long way off realistically simulating air density or turbulence, and the geometry model doesn't simulate anything realistically, I'd say PD have got a lot of work to do to make GTS realistic. A good start to that would be to work on a tyre model that realistically simulates air pressure, carcass flex, and temperature.

 

[Supra916]

sems4arsenal I thought I wanted unlimited options and endless tuning and then I played PCARS, never have I been so wrong

Sorry for stealing your post sems4arsenal, but, that was my though exactly, when I stumbled on this thread. Thanks.

 

[super_gt]

A good start to that would be to work on a tyre model that realistically simulates air pressure, carcass flex, and temperature.

Something similar to this:

 

[Mike_grpA]

Something similar to this:

Yep, that would be a great addition to GT.

Also, I love the thermal onboards of F1 cars

 

[Imari]

I have never heard any race driver or teams say that TBH. Something like because of tire pressure they lost time or got it wrong. The regulations are same for everyone and I am not sure they mess with it at all.

Well, you're wrong. Watch more motorsport.

 

[Samus]

If no teams adjusted tire pressure all of these governing bodies wouldn't have to introduce limits for their series in the first place. They would take what they were given by the tyre companies and leave them alone, no problem. Obviously that is not the case.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120904
http://autoaction.com.au/v8-supercars-clarifies-tyre-pressure-rules/

Just two examples.

 

[chzsln485]

I want a mix of GT3/GT4 physics...

So you'd like Polyphony to take a step backwards to a PS2 level of physics simulation, that, having been praised at the time, has since been considered to have far too much understeer and a generally very poor modelling of oversteer and the progression of grip loss? GT4 was a good game for its time, but its time was 2004 - 12 years ago. To put that timespan into perspective, I can't imagine there were many people around at the launch of GT4 thinking it would be better if it had the rudimentary physics from Motor Toon Grand Prix.

 

[Samus]

So you'd like Polyphony to take a step backwards to a PS2 level of physics simulation, that, having been praised at the time, has since been considered to have far too much understeer and a generally very poor modelling of oversteer and the progression of grip loss? GT4 was a good game for its time, but its time was 2004 - 12 years ago. To put that timespan into perspective, I can't imagine there were many people around at the launch of GT4 thinking it would be better if it had the rudimentary physics from Motor Toon Grand Prix.

I think people who laud the physics of the older games really should play them again, bypass the nostalgia shades. As you say they were good for their time but today, they're miles behind. The PS1 games feel very primitive and simple today but at the time it was really the only game doing "realistic" handling.

 

[chzsln485]

I think people who laud the physics of the older games really should play them again, bypass the nostalgia shades. As you say they were good for their time but today, they're miles behind. The PS1 games feel very primitive and simple today but at the time it was really the only game doing "realistic" handling.

I recently played through the first GT, and whilst it was still good fun, the physics are in some ways almost comically bad today. Perhaps most obvious is the fact that when a racing car (or anything with firm suspension) clipped a kerb, the whole side of the car would bounce up and down three or four times after the intial jolt. At the time, we knew no better, but it would be ridiculous to see a game do that today outside of some sort of bizarre physics glitch. Then there's the ludicrous amounts of grip cars generally have, the fact that some cars lose hundreds of kilograms when race modified or when they undergo weight reductions, the exaggerated simulation of heavily turbocharged engine power curves, and so it goes on...

I guess the car industry is a perfect analogy for this - the E30 M3 so beloved by car enthusiasts, now and then, produced 195bhp when new (in catalytic converter equipped form). Brilliant for the time, no doubt, but does that mean BMW should still today be making the E30, a car introduced in 1985, without even moving it on or evolving it even slightly? I'm sure some misty-eyed, nostalgic car enthusiasts would love that, but in a wider context, would anyone really appreciate that when a Ford Fiesta can be bought with the same sort of performance? Probably not.

I personally love the original Civic Type-R, but should Honda still be making it instead of evolving the Type-R to the latest version? Of course not. Everything needs to move on at some point, or we would be playing GT6 on PS2 and Forza 6 on the original Xbox if not.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I personally love the original Civic Type-R, but should Honda still be making it instead of evolving the Type-R to the latest version? Of course not. Everything needs to move on at some point, or we would be playing GT6 on PS2 and Forza 6 on the original Xbox if not.

Oh the irony that more than half of the cars and some of the tracks in GT6 are from PS2

 

[chzsln485]

Oh the irony that more than half of the cars and some of the tracks in GT6 are from PS2

Exactly. That's why I hope GT Sport can deliver on the impression of newness it gives. A new name, a new focus, a new concept, new staff, new console, new hardware. Don't fill it full of PS2 cars. If I wanted to do that, I would play GT4.

 

[Tornado]

What is mix of GT3/GT4 physics, anyway?

The four tire physics model GT4 finally brought to the table complimented with the ability to actually make cars turn and respond to outside forces (which is basically what GT PSP was)? Or... *shudder* the center-rotation model that GT3 still had tweaked extensively from GT1 coupled with every car understeering in every situation?

 

[chzsln485]

What is mix of GT3/GT4 physics, anyway?

The four tire physics model GT4 finally brought to the table complimented with the ability to actually make cars turn and respond to outside forces (which is basically what GT PSP was)? Or... *shudder* the center-rotation model that GT3 still had tweaked extensively from GT1 coupled with every car understeering in every situation?

Maybe we get a choice between the "weird sliding bricks" physics from GT3 or the "understeering like an ocean liner made from solid lead" physics from GT4. Sounds good.

(I'm being a little unfair on GT3 and GT4, they weren't quite that bad - but in no way are they even remotely good enough to go toe-to-toe with PCARS, Assetto Corsa, and what have you).

 

[Tired Tyres]

As if GT5 is 6 could!

Seriously, the older games handled RR better than GT6 does and I'm not sure about FF or FR either for that matter. Actually can GT6 do ANYTHING better at all? Yes it can, but not as much as you'd think.

 

[chzsln485]

As if GT5 is 6 could!

Seriously, the older games handled RR better than GT6 does and I'm not sure about FF or FR either for that matter. Actually can GT6 do ANYTHING better at all? Yes it can, but not as much as you'd think.

I never said GT5 or GT6 physics would be satisfactory. I agree, there are areas of the physics that need updating and fixing to really be competitive against current gen racers. It's just as well GT Sport is on the way, so maybe they'll start improving these things.