Gran Turismo Sport Physics Thread (Poll)

[Turnaround]

It would seem that at this point it can be conclusively said that Polyphony is not as knowledgeable about cars and their behavior as other developers are. Especially as they are the only game calling itself a simulator that neglects the tire model, or the point of contact between a car and the road surface which makes it (correct me if I'm wrong) the most important aspect concerning a car's behavior.

This of course doesn't take into consideration all the other aspects they're getting wrong.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It would seem that at this point it can be conclusively said that Polyphony is not as knowledgeable about cars and their behavior as other developers are. Especially as they are the only game calling itself a simulator that neglects the tire model, or the point of contact between a car and the road surface which makes it (correct me if I'm wrong) the most important aspect concerning a car's behavior.

This of course doesn't take into consideration all the other aspects they're getting wrong.

I don't question their ability or knowledge level at all. I think PD can do anything that any other developer can do and probably more. It's not a question of ability it's a question of desire, of practicality, of whether it's needed at all to have a really in depth physics simulation in order to appeal to what are mostly casual gamers. Think about it for a second. They sold 70 million units all the while being significantly behind pc sims of the day in the physics department. If you had moved $1Billion+ worth of games how willing would you be to tinker with the formula? They've gotten away with being 5-10 years behind the leaders of the pack in terms of simulation for a long time now.

 

[Imari]

The PS1 games feel very primitive and simple today but at the time it was really the only game doing "realistic" handling.

The only console game, with the exception of the original Need for Speed.

It would seem that at this point it can be conclusively said that Polyphony is not as knowledgeable about cars and their behavior as other developers are. Especially as they are the only game calling itself a simulator that neglects the tire model, or the point of contact between a car and the road surface which makes it (correct me if I'm wrong) the most important aspect concerning a car's behavior.

No, and they never really have been. They've had a corner on the modern console market, which is a fairly brilliant idea in and of itself, but their physics has always been fair to middling on the scale of the broader simulation scene.

Gran Turismo doesn't need and has never needed to be the best simulation in the world. All it needs is to be good enough to convince Joe Casual that it's a realistic representation of whatever he's driving. Bonus points if they can make him feel like a hero while he's doing it.

See how poorly many people on this forum respond to the physics of AC and iRacing, two of the most accurate consumer level simulations available at the moment. Joe Casual finds actual realism frustrating, because he's used to thinking that he's some sort of hybrid of Ayrton Senna, Jeremy Clarkson and Keiichi Tsuchiya and a realistic game breaks that illusion.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Joe Casual finds actual realism frustrating, because he's used to thinking that he's some sort of hybrid of Ayrton Senna, Jeremy Clarkson and Keiichi Tsuchiya and a realistic game breaks that illusion.

I dunno, after all the first-corner wrecks I've been witness to in online racing over the years, I think there may be some truth to the Senna comment.

 

[Turnaround]

I think PD can do anything that any other developer can do and probably more.

Well until they do something as good as or better than other developers I'm going to have to stick with the theory that has some support behind it. That being said, I can definitely understand why they wouldn't want to deviate from a working formula. I've seen franchises that tried it and didn't do very well as a result.


Just so I'm clear, I would have laughed myself out of a room for thinking PD knew less about cars five years ago. But that was before finding GTPlanet and learning just how poorly GT compares to other titles in the same genre.

Joe Casual finds actual realism frustrating, because he's used to thinking that he's some sort of hybrid of Ayrton Senna, Jeremy Clarkson and Keiichi Tsuchiya and a realistic game breaks that illusion.

I'm guessing you don't hold a high opinion of Joe Casual.

 

[Imari]

I'm guessing you don't hold a high opinion of Joe Casual.

It's not about a high or low opinion, Joe Casual plays to have fun. There's nothing wrong with that. It is what it is.

I have no illusions that the things that are fun for me in racing games are the things that most people would find fun. And I'm also aware that I don't take other types of games, like say MOBAs, as seriously as other people do. I don't even take all racing games seriously, I find Grid to be plenty enjoyable. Sometimes I just want to have fun, and that's fine.

For example, DotA2 is a more mechanically and tactically deep game than HotS, but I'm not a hardcore MOBA dude and I don't want to spend a hundred hours learning a massive hero list and practising my skillshots to be moderately competent in an hour long game. I want a quick and easy game that I can jump into and have fun, and so that's what I play. If it required more skill for competence, it would frustrate me as DotA did.

I can infer that for other people it might be the other way around, they take their FPSes seriously and just want a racing game that they can have a good time in without too much effort or investment. Which for most people means feeling like they're at least a moderately good driver, and because most people aren't very good drivers that means hyper realism tends to get in the way.

There's a point for a casual player where they just want to play and feel like they're doing good. That's the reference to Ayrton Senna, Clarkson and Tsuchiya. If the game makes the casual player feel like that, then it's doing it's job for them. They're not hardcore, so they're not as invested in actually being good, as long as they feel like they are.

Do you not have any games that you play just for fun, but don't actually take seriously?

 

[synon]

The only console game, with the exception of the original Need for Speed.



No, and they never really have been. They've had a corner on the modern console market, which is a fairly brilliant idea in and of itself, but their physics has always been fair to middling on the scale of the broader simulation scene.

Gran Turismo doesn't need and has never needed to be the best simulation in the world. All it needs is to be good enough to convince Joe Casual that it's a realistic representation of whatever he's driving. Bonus points if they can make him feel like a hero while he's doing it.

See how poorly many people on this forum respond to the physics of AC and iRacing, two of the most accurate consumer level simulations available at the moment. Joe Casual finds actual realism frustrating, because he's used to thinking that he's some sort of hybrid of Ayrton Senna, Jeremy Clarkson and Keiichi Tsuchiya and a realistic game breaks that illusion.

The only review of GT6's handling model comparing it to iRacing's that I recall was Eurogamer's which said it was on a par, but at a certain level such comparisons are going to be subjective.

 

[Turnaround]

It's not about a high or low opinion, Joe Casual plays to have fun. There's nothing wrong with that. It is what it is.

It seems that I misread the tone of your post. I had thought this was another (albeit milder) moment of "bah! those filthy casuals." Guess this means I should take another GTP forum break.

Do you not have any games that you play just for fun, but don't actually take seriously?

Yes, fortunately. I just made the mistake of taking GT too seriously during the build-up to GT5.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I think people who laud the physics of the older games really should play them again, bypass the nostalgia shades. As you say they were good for their time but today, they're miles behind. The PS1 games feel very primitive and simple today but at the time it was really the only game doing "realistic" handling.

Ever played Advan Racing ( PS1 game ) ? It's more advanced than GT1 and GT2 as well as NFS, with official tire brand, mixing tire size and compound, tire wear simulation, clutch usage, cockpit view etc. No game has official tire brand use today that I know of that allows freedom to put different tire size on both axle and various compound ( using real life tire model name with specific tire parameter - grip, wear rate, etc ) The game also features Japanese, German and American cars, including JTCC cars, with in depth tuning setup, it even has rain/weather. This was possible in PS1 day, makes us wonder why other dev don't

 

[Scaff]

Ever played Advan Racing ( PS1 game ) ? It's more advanced than GT1 and GT2 as well as NFS, with official tire brand, mixing tire size and compound, tire wear simulation, clutch usage, cockpit view etc. No game has official tire brand use today that I know of that allows freedom to put different tire size on both axle and various compound ( using real life tire model name with specific tire parameter - grip, wear rate, etc ) The game also features Japanese, German and American cars, including JTCC cars, with in depth tuning setup, it even has rain/weather. This was possible in PS1 day, makes us wonder why other dev don't

Found some footage of it and while it (of course) is very primitive in comparison to current titles, it certainly looks like it was a strong challenge to GT on the PS. Never even heard of it before.



Even had a 'cockpit cam'.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Found some footage of it and while it (of course) is very primitive in comparison to current titles, it certainly looks like it was a strong challenge to GT on the PS. Never even heard of it before.



Even had a 'cockpit cam'.

It's good, I owned the game as well as GT series on PSX I'm playing it now on the laptop that I used to type this, using PSX emulator with Iso made from the disc. Taking R33 GTST to Mine circuit, fitting Advan Neova tire 225/45/17 front and 245/40/17 tire ( there are several street tire level, M5GP, M7R and Neova ), each car has variety of tire width and size choices, mix different size or compound possible. I should also mention there's night racing, rain, misty, sunny, etc and fuel consumption. Tires have 4 parameter, dry grip, wet grip, drain, control and consume. Turbo boost can be adjusted. Racing cars ( JGTC, JTCC ) have different tires as well, slick ( H,M,S Inter, Rain ) and can be mixed, front M, rear S etc. One of my go to car is Taisan Starcard Porsche 993 GT2 and Club Japan Ferrari F355, there are also Chasers, Exiv, Accord from JTCC days. Tuned road car also available, 500+HP R32 GTR, R33 GTR etc.

Up to 16 cars in a race ( can be adjusted as well ), rain racing at Mine using R33 GTST, even with 250PS, racing it feels great for old PSX game, the AI is a bit dumb though at times

It's still boggles me, PD never tried to approach tire company and make them official tire, with proper simulation on PS3 era ... Advan with Atlus did it back in the 90's even on weak PSX, still good effort and driving feels good for it's age ( I'm using DS2 with D-pad )

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Ever played Advan Racing ( PS1 game ) ? It's more advanced than GT1 and GT2 as well as NFS, with official tire brand, mixing tire size and compound, tire wear simulation, clutch usage, cockpit view etc. No game has official tire brand use today that I know of that allows freedom to put different tire size on both axle and various compound ( using real life tire model name with specific tire parameter - grip, wear rate, etc ) The game also features Japanese, German and American cars, including JTCC cars, with in depth tuning setup, it even has rain/weather. This was possible in PS1 day, makes us wonder why other dev don't

I liked the Codemaster games back in the day, TOCA 2 Touring cars I found quite awesome. It had great sounds, cockpit view, rain and challenging handling. Liked also Colin McRae Rally driving school.

 

[glassjaw]

Found some footage of it and while it (of course) is very primitive in comparison to current titles, it certainly looks like it was a strong challenge to GT on the PS. Never even heard of it before.



Even had a 'cockpit cam'.

The in-cockpit bouncing of the second video is pretty mesmerizing to watch, I'm amazed they could do so much with physics on PS1 hardware. Plus, 16 cars on track! Never heard of this game before but I'll definitely seek it out now.

 

[Tornado]

I always loved that in the 90s that there was a certain subset of Japanese racing developers who cared so little if they had car licencing that it seems like they were directly taunting manufacturers over it.

 

[Mike_grpA]

Found some footage of it and while it (of course) is very primitive in comparison to current titles, it certainly looks like it was a strong challenge to GT on the PS. Never even heard of it before.



Even had a 'cockpit cam'.

I can't believe I haven't heard of this game before, it looks so far ahead of it's time! Thanks for sharing that, I think I may need to dig out the PS1 emulator.

 

[Wolfe]

...This was possible in PS1 day, makes us wonder why other dev don't

 

[Grippy]

Ever played Advan Racing ( PS1 game ) ? It's more advanced than GT1 and GT2 as well as NFS, with official tire brand, mixing tire size and compound, tire wear simulation, clutch usage, cockpit view etc. No game has official tire brand use today that I know of that allows freedom to put different tire size on both axle and various compound ( using real life tire model name with specific tire parameter - grip, wear rate, etc ) The game also features Japanese, German and American cars, including JTCC cars, with in depth tuning setup, it even has rain/weather. This was possible in PS1 day, makes us wonder why other dev don't

You can put different tyre width on most Forza games and Midnight Club LA and MC3 on Ps2

 

[Grippy]

However in response to the thread poll I think GT should make the step up and include tyre pressure adjustment for all tyres at minimum, it would be nice to finally achieve just off the top of my head some sort of realisitic drag/possiblities of wheelies and Nascar tunes

 

[Johnnypenso]

I know it's early and no one has their hands on the game yet but we do have some people who have first hand experience who will be weighing in soon with their impressions and we can glean some information from the videos we've seen as well. So let's discuss GT Sport Physics as best we can at this point.

Word your posts carefully and avoid making factual statements that you cant back up with....facts. Expect to be asked to prove any definitive claims you make.

I'll open the discussion with this video which starts at the Mazda race:


You can see that the car carries the same kind of unrealistic slip angles through the corners that were common in GT5 and GT6. This does not bode well for big changes in tire modeling, particularly heat retention and dissapation or for major changes in overall physics and feel.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Perhaps not a real lot to say at the moment.
And please excuse my laziness in not re-watching the race, and fuzziness of memory due to the ridiculous hour of the day of the live stream for me, but I recall thinking watching the Nurburgring 5 lapper how little advantage there seemed to be slip-streaming down the long straight with the GT3 cars.

I'll have to re-watch it again to see if I still get that same impression.

 

[trustjab]

Perhaps not a real lot to say at the moment.
And please excuse my laziness in not re-watching the race, and fuzziness of memory due to the ridiculous hour of the day of the live stream for me, but I recall thinking watching the Nurburgring 5 lapper how little advantage there seemed to be slip-streaming down the long straight with the GT3 cars.

I'll have to re-watch it again to see if I still get that same impression.

I noticed that too! None of that huge boost just from drafting like previous GT's. I think we have to ask if the tires are sports or racing in these videos. There's not even an indication of tire wear being switched on. So imo, most of the questions about that model will be best left to when we get to see the tire compound, the suspension settings and most importantly- the game 'mode'.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I noticed that too! None of that huge boost just from drafting like previous GT's. I think we have to ask if the tires are sports or racing in these videos. There's not even an indication of tire wear being switched on. So imo, most of the questions about that model will be best left to when we get to see the tire compound, the suspension settings and most importantly- the game 'mode'.

Yes, too many variables to come to any real conclusion.
But interesting nonetheless.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I figure it's just GT6's physics model only with tweaks and perhaps fixes.

 

[sems4arsenal]

I figure it's just GT6's physics model only with tweaks and perhaps fixes.

Looks like it.

 

[Flash3001]

I'm a little bit worried about this issue. Those cars 'dancing' in the competitions made me feel sad.

First of all we need to take into account that PD said it's 50% complete (please correct me about this number). So it's possible they didn't include any new code in this release.

Make physics accurate must take a lot of processing power, so I suppose PS3 hold their back a lot on that. So with a new hardware, it makes no sense to improve only graphics.

In PS3 era GTs games were always the top on a lot of terms, including physics, but now we have Project Cars - beside all it's bugs, it feels good to drive. Not long we are going to get Assetto Corsa. All of then are candidates to shrink sales if GT doesn't satisfy its costumers - although I'm a fan and I'll buy it regardless.

Hardware limitations, competition, code not completed: They are all thing to think about, but I believe the most compelling reason is: Now it's an official competition sanctioned by FIA, so it should be accurate.

If they are going to blur the line between real and virtual, physics should be the first, from a technical point of view.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Scaff said it's a pretty good improvement, and I'm inclined to believe him. But my eyes watching those videos say otherwise. As always with physics it's difficult to judge without actually holding the wheel in your hands.

My bet is it's going to be an improvement over GT6, but the fastest way around a track will probably still look like Ridge Racer

I'm sticking with AC for my accurate physics needs

 

[Swift20B]

It does look like they're running on a slippery surface, like they're drifting around corners instead of having the natural swing in the rear. Only issue that sticks out to me besides that are the tire sound effects. It sounds as if the tires are always sliding no matter how the car corners. It's either quiet or a loud screech. Even when making simple maneuvers such as lane changing. In real life, there is gonna be some tire roll before the friction coefficient goes and the tires begin to slide across the road surface. They might need to reevaluate the sounds a tire makes.

 

[sirjim73]

I have been playing some GT6 this week and found I switched over to GT Sport relatively easily today (yesterday now, jeez look at the time), although that was mostly on controller not on wheel as couldn't get on the pods most of the time when I was looking to. To me it felt there was some improvement in the handling but I'm going to bow out of this discussion after this brief post as I don't have a "technical" mind for this stuff.

All I can say is that the changes to handling felt intuitive to me on a basic level, e.g. when I turned in to that long right hander at Willow Springs, the car did exactly what I expected it to. To "back that up", that first Arcade race, I spun out near the end of the second lap but had kept it going nicely up to then. I'm very much Mr Johnny Average in terms of driving on GT (usually somewhere around silver in seasonal events) so was pleasantly surprised that I got a good run in my first ever race in GT Sport, which will go up on YouTube when i've slept a few hours and then sorted everything out.

In terms of the physics though, there will be much better informed people to comment than I and I will leave it up to them to discuss it with yourselves.

 

[Nexus]

To the people that have played it, is there any lift-off oversteer?

 

[finnracer]

You can see more detailed impressions in my posts elsewhere but overall I was very impressed with the physics. One thing I did forget to mention is that drafting is now way more realistic than in GT6, which was refreshing to see.

The MX-5 Cup car had some lift off oversteer, and the Golf GTI felt looser when you lifted off into a bend, but was not sufficiently unsettled by it to bring the tail out. Given that the GTI is at the more practical end of the Hot Hatch scale I would so it is pretty accurate.