GT Academy July 2013!!

[GTP_rpm]

Well as long as you don't slow yourself down messing around with the pedals, which is exactly why I don't use it

Indeed, if the car they use is the 370z then that skill is redundant as it automatically rev-matches on downshifts anyway (unless they go to the effort of intentionally disabling it). I also saw a small clip on YouTube of last year and it looked like it was just in the carpark with cones - would struggle to get out of 2nd gear at a guess..

It's a good skill to have in your toolbox as a racing driver though.

 

[BanditKarter22]

Indeed, if the car they use is the 370z then that skill is redundant as it automatically rev-matches on downshifts anyway (unless they go to the effort of intentionally disabling it). I also saw a small clip on YouTube of last year and it looked like it was just in the carpark with cones - would struggle to get out of 2nd gear at a guess..

It's a good skill to have in your toolbox as a racing driver though.

Makes me happier knowing that it probably won't be needed 👍

 

[Mamba]

You don't need heel and toe so I wouldn't bother practising it

I agree 👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

You don't need heel and toe so I wouldn't bother practising it

Care to share why ? I have been taught that heel and toe is crucial when braking and I do it on the street, even with front wheel drive car - it became second nature.

The 370z reasoning is weak, what if the manual 370z are not fitted with the rev match feature ?

 

[Lost-on-drugz]

In real life heal toe is faster but gt5 gt6 do it for you when u brake and change gear ull notice the throttle moves up so u get perfect rev matching. So doin yourself in game would slow u down

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

They were talking about race camp, did they ? In real manual car, heel and toe is important.

 

[Lost-on-drugz]

Not sure but as i said if race camp real life heal toe is faster n better braking capability

 

[Jared93]

They were talking about race camp, did they ? In real manual car, heel and toe is important.

Not sure why people are saying otherwise. The impression I'm getting from some of the finalists (in this thread, at least) is that they put no time into actually driving a car.

Personally I find that rather ridiculous. You're competing in a national competition to race professionally yet you won't even put in effort to go to (one) track day? Talk about no real preparation being done.

In the 2012 academy finals, there was one guy (and his girlfriend, ) who made it a point that he's scared to drive anything above the speed limit. Why even participate if you're scared?

 

[Wardez]

That was Darwin, and he was scared of getting a ticket, not going fast.

 

[BanditKarter22]

Not sure why people are saying otherwise. The impression I'm getting from some of the finalists (in this thread, at least) is that they put no time into actually driving a car.

Personally I find that rather ridiculous. You're competing in a national competition to race professionally yet you won't even put in effort to go to (one) track day? Talk about no real preparation being done.

In the 2012 academy finals, there was one guy (and his girlfriend, ) who made it a point that he's scared to drive anything above the speed limit. Why even participate if you're scared?

I would go to a track day in a car if I could, I have to settle for a bit of track time in a kart though. And I'm far from unprepared...

 

[GTP_rpm]

Care to share why ? I have been taught that heel and toe is crucial when braking and I do it on the street, even with front wheel drive car - it became second nature.

The 370z reasoning is weak, what if the manual 370z are not fitted with the rev match feature ?

Here's a little video of the 370z rev matching; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27gW9ZS0rkI

As you can see it can be turned off with a push of the button, so it would be down to the event organisers how they wish to run the cars.

You're definitely better knowing how to heel and toe, but in some applications it isn't a requirement in my opinion. It's not exactly difficult to learn 👍

 

[RHODRIEWILLIAMS]

That was Darwin, and he was scared of getting a ticket, not going fast.

Wise man no point in getting banned from driving before race camp or your dsq anyway. Heel n toe isn't the only area to look at in a manual car lots of different driving techniques.
1. how do you plan to shifting on down change ie 5-3-2
2.5-2 you will need h&t for this!! It was a m schumachers technique from the early 90's
3.5-4-3-2

heel toe is going to be hard in a small fwd hatch pedal position will be widely spaced so your gonna need big feet

not many race series use old skool manuals any more. Most racing gearbox's don't even need a clutch even in nascar/v8's etc

MSV does look good grand a day for lots of driving is good value if your not using your own car don't see the point paying less and getting 4 laps driving

Spruggy whats the gearbox like on that formula car of yours is it a sequential shift and without being rude whats the approximate running costs for a test/race weekend

Hey guys when you get your call for national finals post on here still got an outside chance of getting that call. If ive missed national finals by 0.043 after only playing gt for 16 months its gonna hurt

 

[GTP_Ingram]

heel toe is going to be hard in a small fwd hatch pedal position will be widely spaced so your gonna need big feet

Strange you should say that, as I can heel-and-toe my 205 GTi like a Driving God, yet I normally hash it up in an E90 3-series. I find it to be as much a case of how sensitive the throttle is as to do with the spacing of the pedals.

I don't know the plan for this year, but previously I believe a 370Z was used at the National Finals for an autotest, so it'll be a case of leaving it in second and getting on with it. They may have used the semi-auto version anyway iirc, the GT3-spec GTR is paddleshift so heel-and-toe technique wont be the most vital skill needed to do well in the competition (still very satisfying to nail though!)

 

[Spurgy 777]

Care to share why ? I have been taught that heel and toe is crucial when braking and I do it on the street, even with front wheel drive car - it became second nature.

The 370z reasoning is weak, what if the manual 370z are not fitted with the rev match feature ?

Although I've never been told the actual reason why anyone would want to use heel and toe, as far as I can tell it just lets you do clutchless downshifts, which if I'm right will help under braking. But even if that's not right, the technique will gain you relatively little time, which might be crucial in certain cars to gain a tenth or two, isn't really going to make any difference to the people at boot camp who will be seconds off the pace. My advice would be to limit your distractions like messing around with the pedals and just keep everything to the basics and concentrate on driving only.

Spruggy whats the gearbox like on that formula car of yours is it a sequential shift and without being rude whats the approximate running costs for a test/race weekend

It's a sequential, no room for a H-box really And excluding new tyres which you won't need every race weekend, a test day is £1,000, sometimes a little less depending on the track. And a race weekend will cost £2,500 if you hire your car, a lot less if you buy your own, and that includes accommodation, food, fuel costs etc, everything you will need.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Although I've never been told the actual reason why anyone would want to use heel and toe, as far as I can tell it just lets you do clutchless downshifts, which if I'm right will help under braking. But even if that's not right, the technique will gain you relatively little time, which might be crucial in certain cars to gain a tenth or two, isn't really going to make any difference to the people at boot camp who will be seconds off the pace. My advice would be to limit your distractions like messing around with the pedals and just keep everything to the basics and concentrate on driving only.



It's a sequential, no room for a H-box really And excluding new tyres which you won't need every race weekend, a test day is £1,000, sometimes a little less depending on the track. And a race weekend will cost £2,500 if you hire your car, a lot less if you buy your own, and that includes accommodation, food, fuel costs etc, everything you will need.

Heel and toe purpose is to downshift smoothly and maintain the car's engine in the powerband, it will still requires the clutch on a conventional manual transmission. How can you not know this ? You have driven in Formula Jedi right ? You should at least familiar with heel and toe, it's racing basics. My dad taught me when I was 15, and he was just car enthusiasts who often do street racing in his younger days, he did also taught me to heel and toe with double de-clutching technique - obsolete now with synchro boxes.

heel-and-toe-downshift

A heel-and-toe downshift refers to a specific technique used to downshift a manual transmission car. It might seem bizarre to the general populace, but racecar drivers use it all the time. Once mastered, the heel-and-toe downshift offers the benefits of reduced vehicle wear-and-tear, better driver control and faster lap times on a racetrack.

The heel-and-toe downshift is a rather complex action involving both of the driver's feet, the driver's right hand, all three vehicle pedals and the gear shift lever. The purpose of the heel-and-toe is to smoothly match engine speed to wheel speed

A video of heel and toe using NSX by the legend himself :



and FF EK9 Spoon Civic tuned car at Tsukuba - Tsuchiya - heel and toe at it's best.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Rev matching, IE heel/toe to has two purposes that I can think of. Number one on my list would be decreasing load on the clutch, less deceleration skid would be next. Heel/toe might be simple in concept but less simple to do well in practical applications.

 

[Tidgney]

I heel toe in my car, well I started a few weeks ago as my oil late kept coming on when Idle or clutch in so maintain some revs stopped it haha and the beeping that went with it !

5th to 4th to 3rd no problem, Peddles are a little off, 3rd to 2nd is a nightmare the gear ratio is aweful and the same 2nd to 1st. But I drive a diesel 1.4l 206 so the lower gears are set in crazy small ratios for the purpose of pulling away.

I believe des did say that you could use heel and toe in some cases at the finals but they weren't to bothered? I wouldn't worry about it though as mentioned most race cars now are paddle shift for the very purpose you left foot brake all the time and you accelerate with your right foot, to get the most out of doing one or the other without a minuscule break in the middle.

Theres usually an Autotest at the nationals which will be one gear as Alex has said, but you shouldn't be panicking over techniques now, just prepare yourself and enjoy the experience.

As for spots at the final if Saidurs not going and MTT messaged me (He's 17 I believe and a few months of 18, if they let him in they do, but I think this is silverstone rules more than GT Academy rules maybe? Insurance and stuff?) But that puts us down to 18th place now I believe in the UK.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Heel and toe purpose is to downshift smoothly and maintain the car's engine in the powerband, it will still requires the clutch on a conventional manual transmission. How can you not know this ? You have driven in Formula Jedi right ? You should at least familiar with heel and toe, it's racing basics. My dad taught me when I was 15, and he was just car enthusiasts who often do street racing in his younger days, he did also taught me to heel and toe with double de-clutching technique - obsolete now with synchro boxes.

Well as I said, no ones ever told me why it's useful so it was just a guess really, now that I think about it some more, if rev matching meant you could do clutchless downshifts, you wouldn't need heel and toe, so I wasn't really thinking about it too hard

But anyway, I've obviously driven the Jedi, yes, and I often qualify near the front of the grid without using heel and toe, and it's never been suggested to me that I should use it either. You seem to think that all cars require the same driving as old street cars, but we're talking about modern race cars which are a lot more user friendly.

 

[Stotty]

Although I've never been told the actual reason why anyone would want to use heel and toe, as far as I can tell it just lets you do clutchless downshifts, which if I'm right will help under braking. But even if that's not right, the technique will gain you relatively little time, which might be crucial in certain cars to gain a tenth or two, isn't really going to make any difference to the people at boot camp who will be seconds off the pace. My advice would be to limit your distractions like messing around with the pedals and just keep everything to the basics and concentrate on driving only.

I’m guessing you’re track experience is based around karts and/or sequential geared cars, and you haven’t done any/much track work in manual road based cars?

Toe and Heeling isn’t really about clutch-less downshifts - although it does help enable this, there’s no real reason to do clutch-less downshifts unless you’re trail braking AND left foot braking… ultimately, it will destroy the gearbox.

It’s primarily a technique you use to manage and control weight transfer, helping prevent unsettling the rear under braking… particularly when trail braking. Although it massively reduces gearbox wear as well

Example: In a RWD car… You approach a 2nd gear corner at the top of the rev range in 4th gear. You begin braking and you change down to 3rd. When you select 3rd gear, (and subsequently 2nd) if you don’t toe and heel the engine will have to immediately spin up to a faster rate to match the wheel speed when the clutch is released. This, in the worst case, can cause the rear wheels to lock in a RWD car (if the engine can’t gain revs fast enough or there’s low surface grip – this is known as shift locking, and is sometimes used by drifters to initiate a drift) and at best will cause an undesired longitudinal (for/aft) weight transfer. This effect is magnified if you have any steering lock applied (ie; you’re trail braking), when you will also introduce lateral (side to side) weight transfer as the inside (less loaded) wheel will have less grip and will try to rotate the car in to the turn (trail brake oversteer).

Toe and heeling bring the revs up so the engine speed in the lower gear matches the wheel speed as you release the clutch, meaning there’s no undesired weight transfer.

Works slightly differently in FWD cars where you’re primarily trying to prevent any further rear-front weight shift whilst trail braking as this can further unload the rear and cause oversteer.

It’s probably the most basic skill you need to drive a manual gearbox car on a track beyond knowing where the steering wheel and pedals are.

With regard to the Academy, if you can’t toe and heel now without it already being habitual, you’re probably better off not trying to learn it. You’ll likely not have enough time to ingrain it and it will end up distracting you and making you slower.

 

[Spurgy 777]

I’m guessing you’re track experience is based around karts and/or sequential geared cars, and you haven’t done any/much track work in manual road based cars?

Toe and Heeling isn’t really about clutch-less downshifts - although it does help enable this, there’s no real reason to do clutch-less downshifts unless you’re trail braking AND left foot braking… ultimately, it will destroy the gearbox.

It’s primarily a technique you use to manage and control weight transfer, helping prevent unsettling the rear under braking… particularly when trail braking. Although it massively reduces gearbox wear as well

Example: In a RWD car… You approach a 2nd gear corner at the top of the rev range in 4th gear. You begin braking and you change down to 3rd. When you select 3rd gear, (and subsequently 2nd) if you don’t toe and heel the engine will have to immediately spin up to a faster rate to match the wheel speed when the clutch is released. This, in the worst case, can cause the rear wheels to lock in a RWD car (if the engine can’t gain revs fast enough or there’s low surface grip – this is known as shift locking, and is sometimes used by drifters to initiate a drift) and at best will cause an undesired longitudinal (for/aft) weight transfer. This effect is magnified if you have any steering lock applied (ie; you’re trail braking), when you will also introduce lateral (side to side) weight transfer as the inside (less loaded) wheel will have less grip and will try to rotate the car in to the turn (trail brake oversteer).

Toe and heeling bring the revs up so the engine speed in the lower gear matches the wheel speed as you release the clutch, meaning there’s no undesired weight transfer.

Works slightly differently in FWD cars where you’re primarily trying to prevent any further rear-front weight shift whilst trail braking as this can further unload the rear and cause oversteer.

It’s probably the most basic skill you need to drive a manual gearbox car on a track beyond knowing where the steering wheel and pedals are.

With regard to the Academy, if you can’t toe and heel now without it already being habitual, you’re probably better off not trying to learn it. You’ll likely not have enough time to ingrain it and it will end up distracting you and making you slower.

Thanks for explaining in detail 👍 Most of my car experience has been in sequential cars, although I have driven a Lotus Exige, Caterham and a Ginetta G40 (one time with a H-box and another time with a sequential) before, but I wasn't in a racing situation so I can't really tell how far off the pace I was.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Well as I said, no ones ever told me why it's useful so it was just a guess really, now that I think about it some more, if rev matching meant you could do clutchless downshifts, you wouldn't need heel and toe, so I wasn't really thinking about it too hard

But anyway, I've obviously driven the Jedi, yes, and I often qualify near the front of the grid without using heel and toe, and it's never been suggested to me that I should use it either. You seem to think that all cars require the same driving as old street cars, but we're talking about modern race cars which are a lot more user friendly.

I am referring to manual cars with clutch and some sequential box with clutch where the clutch is necessary when downshifting ( to extend transmission life ). It's a skill set that will come in handy in the future, you never know what will you drive What if you are asked to drive old vintage race cars with clutch H shifter at certain occasion ?

Is your Jedi still has clutch ? Even with Holinger sequential box, heel and toe is still recommended when downshifting to rev match - clutch is mandatory when going into 1st gear or reverse, while you can shift up without clutch - needs good timing. Maybe they want you to spend more fixing the gearbox frequently

GT3 Cup - Holinger Sequential with Straight Cut gears

 

[Stotty]

Thanks for explaining in detail 👍 Most of my car experience has been in sequential cars, although I have driven a Lotus Exige, Caterham and a Ginetta G40 (one time with a H-box and another time with a sequential) before, but I wasn't in a racing situation so I can't really tell how far off the pace I was.

👍

Couple of quite different cars...

You would DEFINITELY need to toe & heel in an Exige to get anywhere near the best out of it... most midengined cars have a low polar moment of intertia (they want to rotate quickly) and so tend to be VERY sensitive to weight transfer. I haven't driven an Exige, but I have driven an Elise, and you need to manage the weight transfer very carefully to drive them quickly.

Most Catherhams are gernerally stable under braking (low wieght, relatively high grip:weight ratio), so you'd be OK not T&H'ing for the most part... I have never been able to actually T&H in the various Caterhams I've driven as the pedal box is too small for my big feet, and as they weren't mine I was less mechanically sympathetic.

 

[iamsupernasty]

The point of heel toe is to match engine speeds to rear end speeds. On many cars if you don't do it, the rear wheels will lock and send you spinning every time.

I could go into more depth but I'm on my phone.

 

[Spurgy 777]

@Ridox, yes it does have a clutch, and it sounds as if I could do with being taught heel and toe to make the car last a bit longer as it's a bike engine in a car so it's quite fragile. I've already broken one gearbox trying to do clutchless upshifts Although having said that, in the Jedi you sometimes need to do 3-4 downshifts in about 1-2 seconds so I can see it needing quite a lot of practice.

@Stotty, the Exige was the car I spent least time in as I only drove it to pass my ARDS test so I was by no means pushing the limit which sort of brings me back to my original point that in GT Academy, you won't really be going fast enough for H&T to make a difference.

 

[Stotty]

@Stotty, the Exige was the car I spent least time in as I only drove it to pass my ARDS test so I was by no means pushing the limit which sort of brings me back to my original point that in GT Academy, you won't really be going fast enough for H&T to make a difference.

Likely right.

With regard to driving, initially, I think they will be looking for someone who has an innate understanding and feel for the cars balance rather than outright speed. The speed will come if you progress to later rounds.

 

[GTP_rpm]

It’s probably the most basic skill you need to drive a manual gearbox car on a track beyond knowing where the steering wheel and pedals are.

Bit of an exaggeration!

...the interior mirror is much more important for checking yourself out in the mirror, isn't it stotty

 

[Stotty]

Bit of an exaggeration!

...the interior mirror is much more important for checking yourself out in the mirror, isn't it stotty

Isn't it important to look good whilst you’re going fast?

Over simplified, maybe.. I classify toe and heel as something you can learn (a skill) like changing gear or left foot braking.

However, the most important thing in making you fast is having the 'feel' for weight transfer and knowing what effect it will have on the car... then being able to make the necessary combined control inputs (steering, brakes, throttle) to manage weight transfer effectively and thus maximise grip through the 3 stages of cornering (entry, apex, exit).

I believe you can teach people the theory of weight transfer, how it effects the car and how to manage it, but I also believe that the 'feel' element isn't teachable - it's something everyone has to a lesser or greater degree. You might be able to help someone become (say) 10% better through coaching and theoretical understanding, but you’ll never teach someone who’s a naturally average driver to become a superstar.

Really fast drivers (at the extreme; Hamilton, Alonso, Loeb would be current good examples) have an extremely high level of natural ‘feel’, and this is what separates them from the merely fast.

 

[RHODRIEWILLIAMS]

Whats all the hamilton Alonso love in f1 theses days?? lewis has been slower than nico most of the year its all vettal & raikkonen for me:tup:

 

[markyboy92]

Whats all the hamilton Alonso love in f1 theses days?? lewis has been slower than nico most of the year its all vettal & raikkonen for me:tup:

Identical car I know who'd I'd have my money on

 

[BanditKarter22]

Whats all the hamilton Alonso love in f1 theses days?? lewis has been slower than nico most of the year its all vettal & raikkonen for me:tup:

Are you joking? Hamilton has out qualified Rosberg this year, and he deserved to have that win at Silverstone instead of Rosberg. Rosberg's done a great job but I still think Hamilton has the edge! Alonso is a class driver and his race craft is annoyingly brilliant! Vettel was outpaced by Ricciardo in testing, while running the same fuel load! Raikkonen is doing a solid job but I think his approach is quite cautious!