GT and Kaz

[alex511]

For many of us, GT and Kaz are indivisible connected to each other.
Of course, he‘s the father of the series and maybe the serious racing genre and there from the beginning over 25 years now. It reminds me at bit of Apple and Steve Jobs. Apple lives further, but the genius of Jobs gone. For me, the soul of Apple left.
When we do here a connection to Gran Turismo, do you think GT could or would have a future without Kaz?
Of course the launch of GT7 was not good, but the game I have the feeling get better with every update and so makes more fun and has still the „special Gran Turismo soul“, I compare with the former days of Apple. It’s in my opinion unique.

 

[SU_Tempest]

The way I see it, Kazunori Yamauchi is to Gran Turismo what Hideo Kojima was to Metal Gear. No matter how people feel about GT7 and how good or bad you think it got... if you take him out of the equation, if he were to leave or be fired for one reason or another, it would absolutely and permanently impact Gran Turismo in general.
There's not much we can do as players to speak to a project director running a vision-driven franchise (which GT absolutely is), but in my opinion at least, seeing Kaz leave would be a net negative.


Would GT have a future? Sure. Sony likes making money. After all, why would they let go of Gran Turismo, one of their top money-makers since 1997. Would it be the same? Absolutely not. GT7, faults and all, microtransactions and all, still isn't quite like anything else on the market when it comes to racing games. Kaz leaving opens the risk of Gran Turismo becoming more... generic, if that makes sense.

 

[Dave A]

To have an idea of GT without Kaz just look at what came as a result of GT, imitated GT, but was developed by a different first party studio, Forza Motorsport. Both games do different things better and worse than the other. I certainly would agree that Kazunori brings a certain something to the Gran Turismo franchise, the games have a certain style and feel and graphically they have some of the best lighting and texture work on the car models of any game.

No doubt Kazunori has brought a lot of good ideas into Gran Turismo over the years, but there's also times I think he's his own worst enemy. He overreaches a lot and certainly as far as GT7 s concerned, he's happy to release unfinished games. He did the same with GT6 on the PS3 albeit not to the same extent.

We often hear talk of exciting new feaures and possabilities in the lead up to a new game only to find they aren't int he game and in some cases never spoken of again. Good ideas get poorly implemented and sometiems good ideas that are rough around the edges but have really good potential with time, development and experience, get tossed aside after 1 or two titles.

There's a lot to like about GT and Kazunori himself, but there's equally as much that baffles me.

 

[Nuschel01]

There's a lot to like about GT and Kazunori himself, but there's equally as much that baffles me.

Amen.

Sometimes I feel like he has a compulsive lying disorder

 

[now_then_fella]

It reminds me a little bit of David Cage and Kojima. The Gran Turismo games probably would not exist without Kaz but he is also the biggest problem with them IMO GT7 looks like a thoroughbred but underneath the hood it's an ageing and worn out setup

 

[Nagaremono]

I’d see no problem as long as whoever follows in his footsteps has a low profile and doesn’t try to put their own stamp or vision on the games and drag them into trying to do even more, spread even more thinly (in many fields often the new leader tries to shake things up and do things differently just for the sake of it, or to increase their own profile).

I’d actually like whoever follows him to go back, go minimalist, add less not more, and get the new games looking and feeling much closer to their roots*.

*By which I mean GT4 👌

 

[mattikake]

For many of us, GT and Kaz are indivisible connected to each other.
Of course, he‘s the father of the series and maybe the serious racing genre and there from the beginning over 25 years now. It reminds me at bit of Apple and Steve Jobs. Apple lives further, but the genius of Jobs gone. For me, the soul of Apple left.
When we do here a connection to Gran Turismo, do you think GT could or would have a future without Kaz?
Of course the launch of GT7 was not good, but the game I have the feeling get better with every update and so makes more fun and has still the „special Gran Turismo soul“, I compare with the former days of Apple. It’s in my opinion unique.

The father of the serious racing genre? Haha you'd better tell Geoff Crammond who was about 10 years ahead and twice as serious.

 

[O604]

Weird game. By a weird man. From a weird country. For weirder fans.

Weird, illogical, sadistic.... it's a feature not a bug.

I've always thought it's better to tell people it's a Japanese game more than a car game.

I feel Forza is to GT. What GTA is to Shenmue. You kind of need to be Japan curious to chose one over the other.

 

[BigSarj]

Wozniak was the soul of Apple, not Jobs.

 

[Samus]

Whilst we obviously know he created the format what we have to know to decide if he'll be missed is since GT1, which ideas and choices have been ultimately his, and which were by other staff members which he just signed off.

To know that, would tell us how different a game without him might be. Are rigged roulettes and gimped economy down to him, would they be gone otherwise? Or are things like that a core part of PD that his replacement would have to agree to?

 

[JMR450]

To have an idea of GT without Kaz just look at what came as a result of GT, imitated GT, but was developed by a different first party studio, Forza Motorsport. Both games do different things better and worse than the other. I certainly would agree that Kazunori brings a certain something to the Gran Turismo franchise, the games have a certain style and feel and graphically they have some of the best lighting and texture work on the car models of any game.

No doubt Kazunori has brought a lot of good ideas into Gran Turismo over the years, but there's also times I think he's his own worst enemy. He overreaches a lot and certainly as far as GT7 s concerned, he's happy to release unfinished games. He did the same with GT6 on the PS3 albeit not to the same extent.

We often hear talk of exciting new feaures and possabilities in the lead up to a new game only to find they aren't int he game and in some cases never spoken of again. Good ideas get poorly implemented and sometiems good ideas that are rough around the edges but have really good potential with time, development and experience, get tossed aside after 1 or two titles.

There's a lot to like about GT and Kazunori himself, but there's equally as much that baffles me.

I agree with you on most of your take.

Problem is though, he has deviated from his own, original goals for the franchise, and has lost touch with automotive culture in general. He has also become far too happy with launching unfinished and underwhelming games.

Him staying or not will not impact my decision to never buy another GT title, they have lost me as a customer so in time I will not care what happens to him or GT honestly. But the sadness I feel for the lost potential of this franchise will stick with me for a while.

 

[cjsrt4]

I feel Kaz is more interested in making an art piece, as opposed to a game. Which comparing him to Steve is probably pretty accurate. He's probably the reason the past 3 main titles have been delayed a lot longer than Sony would have hoped, but in the end I feel it wouldn't be Gran Turismo without his artistic take on the series. Going from the original GT all the way to the current, you know exactly what game you are playing just by the sound and feel of the game. You can't really say that about a lot of games that have been around as long (Mario and Zelda are probably in the same boat). Would the series survive without him? Absolutely, but it would probably lose a lot of it's soul when that happens. But we would probably be able to sell cars......

 

[SU_Tempest]

Weird game. By a weird man. From a weird country. For weirder fans.

Weird, illogical, sadistic.... it's a feature not a bug.

I've always thought it's better to tell people it's a Japanese game more than a car game.

I feel Forza is to GT. What GTA is to Shenmue. You kind of need to be Japan curious to chose one over the other.

I'm not sure how I feel about the "it's Japanese so it's weird" implication, but I think the comparison between GT and Shenmue is an interesting one. Yu Suzuki started out at Sega working on the company's best racing arcade games, then became a creative director and had Sega's backing to follow a vision through and turn it into a game. The result was Shenmue. (Toshihiro Nagoshi did the same thing, and started Ryu Ga Gotoku / Yakuza.) In a sense, that's also what Kaz did, in the sense that Polys started out as a support studio for Sony, worked on a few unrelated games, then turned a creative vision into a game - Gran Turismo - and following its success, a franchise.

I don't know Kaz or any of these individuals personally but I don't think the weirdness is inherently Japanese; to me, this is more a function of vision-driven work. I could say the same thing about Nikita Buyanov and Escape From Tarkov, or Michel Ancel and Rayman. Creator-driven works, with a single director overseeing creative decisions and less executive meddling, tend to be weirder, because they are works largely influenced by one person's imagination, even if they most certainly don't do all the work themselves.

Edit: I also heavily disagree that you have to be Japan-curious to enjoy Japanese creator-driven works. Gran Turismo's success speaks for itself regardless of how you feel about the current games. Shenmue I and II are critically acclaimed and were system sellers for the Dreamcast. Yakuza is experiencing a rebirth in the Western market because of Yakuza 0. So on and so forth.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Take the last four iterations.

What we are seeing is basically the same game, with slight improvements and fewer features. I honestly don't believe Kaz is anything more than a figure head at this point. This game is on autopilot with a few hands on deck and a junior producer at the helm.


There's no way in the world that a AAA game can't afford 1 person to implement events across all tracks. Tokyo is full of events, but there's 2 at the Nürburgring, and they are both in the rain. 2 at Le Mans?

The signs that there's nobody home are everywhere in this game.

 

[SU_Tempest]

Take the last four iterations.

What we are seeing is basically the same game, with slight improvements and fewer features. I honestly don't believe Kaz is anything more than a figure head at this point. This game is on autopilot with a few hands on deck and a junior producer at the helm.


There's no way in the world that a AAA game can't afford 1 person to implement events across all tracks. Tokyo is full of events, but there's 2 at the Nürburgring, and they are both in the rain. 2 at Le Mans?

The signs that there's nobody home are everywhere in this game.

I have to ask - in your opinion, is Polys simply lacking personnel? Is this a problem that could be solved if there were more people at the helm? Or is something else going on?

 

[O604]

I'm not sure how I feel about the "it's Japanese so it's weird" implication, but I think the comparison between GT and Shenmue is an interesting one. Yu Suzuki started out at Sega working on the company's best racing arcade games, then became a creative director and had Sega's backing to follow a vision through and turn it into a game. The result was Shenmue. (Toshihiro Nagoshi did the same thing, and started Ryu Ga Gotoku / Yakuza.) In a sense, that's also what Kaz did, in the sense that Polys started out as a support studio for Sony, worked on a few unrelated games, then turned a creative vision into a game - Gran Turismo - and following its success, a franchise.

I don't know Kaz or any of these individuals personally but I don't think the weirdness is inherently Japanese; to me, this is more a function of vision-driven work. I could say the same thing about Nikita Buyanov and Escape From Tarkov, or Michel Ancel and Rayman. Creator-driven works, with a single director overseeing creative decisions and less executive meddling, tend to be weirder, because they are works largely influenced by one person's imagination, even if they most certainly don't do all the work themselves.

Edit: I also heavily disagree that you have to be Japan-curious to enjoy Japanese creator-driven works. Gran Turismo's success speaks for itself regardless of how you feel about the current games. Shenmue I and II are critically acclaimed and were system sellers for the Dreamcast. Yakuza is experiencing a rebirth in the Western market because of Yakuza 0. So on and so forth.

I do mean weird (and Japanese) in the most complimentary way. Weird is fun.

 

[SU_Tempest]

I do mean weird (and Japanese) in the most complimentary way. Weird is fun.

Ahh, apologies. Yes, I completely agree with that - weird is fun! On that note, Katamari Damacy is a treasure, but I'll stop before I go further off-topic.

 

[Kratos_Q8]

in my opinion the last good gt game was 2004 gran turismo 4 since then the game keeps doing worst and worst will gt survive without kaz ?

YES and i hop he leaves i dont know why you guys compare him to kojima + metal gear.... metal gear needs kojima for his story telling , unique characters/boss fights ect ... but gt is a racing game doesnt need all that i mentioned all we need is cars and EVENTS to race imagine we are in 2022 beging for single player career / events to be added while he gives us 3 events every 1 month with crap payout and same races type

not to mention music rally - VGT cars - online only for single player ect its a long list

 

[Samus]

I feel it wouldn't be Gran Turismo without his artistic take on the series.

That's the thing though, how much of that is Kaz himself and how much is the team that has been there for years as well? If Kaz left tomorrow, would that art style change dramatically? I doubt it.

What we know is down to Kaz for certain is pretty small. We know he is the one that loves the Vision Project, we know it's his love of Tokyo Expressway that led to all those tracks and their favouritism. But when it comes to things like other tracks, is Kaz dictating that or is it his team?

Oh, and we know it was his love of Bad Piggies that brought us the 3 star system in GT6....

 

[SU_Tempest]

in my opinion the last good gt game was 2004 gran turismo 4 since then the game keeps doing worst and worst will gt survive without kaz ?

YES and i hop he leaves i dont know why you guys compare him to kojima + metal gear.... metal gear needs kojima for his story telling , unique characters/boss fights ect ... but gt is a racing game doesnt need all that i mentioned all we need is cars and EVENTS to race imagine we are in 2022 beging for single player career / events to be added while he gives us 3 events every 1 month with crap payout and same races type

Read my posts again, there's a point to my comparison between Yamauchi and Kojima. Metal Gear games are more than just their writing, characters, and storytelling, and Kojima wasn't even the sole writer on most MG/MGS games.

In the same way, a racing game is more than just tracks, cars, events, and believable physics. Assetto Corsa and Gran Turismo both have plenty of tracks, plenty of cars, a selection of events, and believably realistic physics - does that make the games equal in value? Not at all. To borrow from an adspeak term, they don't have the same value proposition.

Ask yourself what makes different racing games differ from each other, without focusing on specifics like "which tracks" or "which cars." What's unique about GT, what does GT have that other franchises don't? What does GT not have that competing franchises do?

 

[Samus]

Read my posts again, there's a point to my comparison between Yamauchi and Kojima. Metal Gear games are more than just their writing, characters, and storytelling, and Kojima wasn't even the sole writer on most MG/MGS games.

In the same way, a racing game is more than just tracks, cars, events, and believable physics. Assetto Corsa and Gran Turismo both have plenty of tracks, plenty of cars, a selection of events, and believably realistic physics - does that make the games equal in value? Not at all. To borrow from an adspeak term, they don't have the same value proposition.

Ask yourself what makes different racing games differ from each other, without focusing on specifics like "which tracks" or "which cars." What's unique about GT, what does GT have that other franchises don't? What does GT not have that competing franchises do?

But PD isn't one person, it's a team of supposedly 300 people. I could hypothetically take over at PD tomorrow and as long as I don't tell the staff to fundamentally change everything about the game, or replace them entirely, you're still going to get all the fundamentals that make GT, GT, unless I tell them specifically not to. They don't unlearn and change everything they do because Kaz isn't there.

Kaz created the revolutionary format and it was his vision and ideas that created all those building blocks that are now the fundamentals of PD, but there is little sign of his direct influence on moving the games forward in recent years. Many of the features they've included (Day/Night, Weather, Course Maker, Livery Editor) are industry standard features. I guess the main thing you could say was Kaz is Photo Mode and now Scapes, but not much in terms of the actual driving/racing game.

 

[SU_Tempest]

But PD isn't one person, it's a team of supposedly 300 people. I could hypothetically take over at PD tomorrow and as long as I don't tell the staff to fundamentally change everything about the game, or replace them entirely, you're still going to get all the fundamentals that make GT, GT, unless I tell them specifically not to. They don't unlearn and change everything they do because Kaz isn't there.

Kaz created the revolutionary format and it was his vision and ideas that created all those building blocks that are now the fundamentals of PD, but there is little sign of his direct influence on moving the games forward in recent years. Many of the features they've included (Day/Night, Weather, Course Maker, Livery Editor) are industry standard features. I guess the main thing you could say was Kaz is Photo Mode and now Scapes, but not much in terms of the actual driving/racing game.

I don't disagree that PD isn't one person and I absolutely agree with you that until we know for sure what are Kaz's personal decisions, what he delegates, and what he just signed off on, we can never know for sure. My point is just a long-winded way to say "Well if he leaves it's not gonna be the same."

As Voodoovaj pointed out earlier, I don't have the feeling GT7 is being developed by a team of 300 working full-time, and - correct me if I'm wrong, I hate to make wrong assumptions - from what I've seen in other posts of yours, you have the belief that most if not all of the questionable decisions in GT7 were intentional. And that's reasonable! I'm with you here, there's no reason to think the state of GT7 here is entirely due to cartoon villainy executive meddling and Kaz and his team are wholly innocent.

All I'm concerned about is that if Kaz does leave, what is it exactly that we're going to lose? I'm concerned it might be more good than bad. As things stand, I think GT7 can use fixing, there's a good game that's supporting the weight of a lot of bad decisions. If it was more bad than good, I believe I'd see more opinions to the tune of, "This shouldn't have been released."

 

[cjsrt4]

That's the thing though, how much of that is Kaz himself and how much is the team that has been there for years as well? If Kaz left tomorrow, would that art style change dramatically? I doubt it.

What we know is down to Kaz for certain is pretty small. We know he is the one that loves the Vision Project, we know it's his love of Tokyo Expressway that led to all those tracks and their favouritism. But when it comes to things like other tracks, is Kaz dictating that or is it his team?

Oh, and we know it was his love of Bad Piggies that brought us the 3 star system in GT6....

I actually believe that Kaz has creative control of the series. The reason I say this is because the game has not changed in 25 years. It's as if he's caught in his own nostalgia and is scared to break away from what the game started as, vs what it should have evolved into. Tracks and championships I highly doubt he has control over. And at this point I don't think he cares about that stuff. He just seems like the guy that gets called into the design office, looks a few things over and tells the employees in the car design area that there isn't enough detail in the headlights.

 

[Kratos_Q8]

Read my posts again, there's a point to my comparison between Yamauchi and Kojima. Metal Gear games are more than just their writing, characters, and storytelling, and Kojima wasn't even the sole writer on most MG/MGS games.

In the same way, a racing game is more than just tracks, cars, events, and believable physics. Assetto Corsa and Gran Turismo both have plenty of tracks, plenty of cars, a selection of events, and believably realistic physics - does that make the games equal in value? Not at all. To borrow from an adspeak term, they don't have the same value proposition.

Ask yourself what makes different racing games differ from each other, without focusing on specifics like "which tracks" or "which cars." What's unique about GT, what does GT have that other franchises don't? What does GT not have that competing franchises do?

what i like more in gt is the graphics and the driving which is ok not the best compared to pc sim racing i use to love this game more than any other i payed more than 1000$ for gt7 ( ps5 , wheel and chair ) coz KAZ sayed this game is going back to its roots like all the other numbered gt i play this game for the wide variety of cars and big career mode wich GT didnt have in how many years now including GT sport (witch KAZ decided its online only game ) + gt7 and the car roaster for my personal opinion is not impressing compared to the the compition (forza for example ) when you look at the VGT cars , all those toyota / subaru 86 , the safety cars , and the world war 1 cars i wish for this game to continue with 299 staff working on it without the man in charge

 

[Samus]

I don't disagree that PD isn't one person and I absolutely agree with you that until we know for sure what are Kaz's personal decisions, what he delegates, and what he just signed off on, we can never know for sure. My point is just a long-winded way to say "Well if he leaves it's not gonna be the same."

As Voodoovaj pointed out earlier, I don't have the feeling GT7 is being developed by a team of 300 working full-time, and - correct me if I'm wrong, I hate to make wrong assumptions - from what I've seen in other posts of yours, you have the belief that most if not all of the questionable decisions in GT7 were intentional. And that's reasonable! I'm with you here, there's no reason to think the state of GT7 here is entirely due to cartoon villainy executive meddling and Kaz and his team are wholly innocent.

All I'm concerned about is that if Kaz does leave, what is it exactly that we're going to lose? I'm concerned it might be more good than bad. As things stand, I think GT7 can use fixing, there's a good game that's supporting the weight of a lot of bad decisions. If it was more bad than good, I believe I'd see more opinions to the tune of, "This shouldn't have been released."

Sure, but that's the same in any business, not just video games. When the person at the top leaves there are always going to be changes, how severe they are is really impossible to predict. It really depends on the replacement and how much they want to change, or are even allowed to change.

I'd like to think Kaz's replacement is already at PD just waiting to take over, and they would know what to change and what not.

 

[SU_Tempest]

Sure, but that's the same in any business, not just video games. When the person at the top leaves there are always going to be changes, how severe they are is really impossible to predict. It really depends on the replacement and how much they want to change, or are even allowed to change.

I'd like to think Kaz's replacement is already at PD just waiting to take over, and they would know what to change and what not.

Well, at the risk of sounding stereotypical... GT8 when?

All jokes aside, you make fair points. It does leave me wondering who might succeed to Kaz and what that might look like. We have had many examples of long-term creative directors leaving and their franchises changing as a result. There's grounds to speculate.

To draw from my earlier comparisons, I hope it'll look more like Yakuza 7 (very unexpected changes but ultimately still a great time; if not better than some of the previous entries) than Metal Gear Survive (a horrendeous mess designed by the very same zombies depicted in the game), if you see what I'm getting at.

 

[kjb]

For me I think GT needs someone to take Kaz's or his vision and adapt to 2022. Look at the racing landscape what are other titles doing? Crib from some them to make the game better. It looks good and has some good bones but content is lacking and economy is crap. I have to make my own fun but then if I make a custom race I can't save it and have to recreate it each time I do a custom race. GT1 was great and changed racing games. But what has he done since then? Race on the moon? Music rally?

 

[Samus]

To draw from my earlier comparisons, I hope it'll look more like Yakuza 7 (very unexpected changes but ultimately still a great time; if not better than some of the previous entries) than Metal Gear Survive (a horrendeous mess designed by the very same zombies depicted in the game), if you see what I'm getting at.

True, the latter is a good example of the same staff cranking out rubbish after a change at the top, but that was at the request of a money grabbing publisher in Konami. Hopefully our assumptions about Sony not being like that would ring true. I certainly don't see Sony turning GT into a yearly release or any other EA-ness.

 

[Raceface1959]

I like the variety of feeling and visual styles that separate the various racing games that I play. When I'm playing Turismo, I know that I'm not playing Forza and vice versa. GT7 allows me the enjoyment of driving amazing looking cars around detailed tracks, while Assetto Corsa has me feeling like I'm actually racing against real living, breathing competition. Codemaster's Dirt Rally games might look spectacular, but it's the simpler looking WRC games that have me not breathing for the majority of a stage. Sebastien Loeb Rally is charming and fun to play BECAUSE it's crappy. I like them all to be different. Sometimes it's the warts of each series that give just as much personality as the positive aspects.

 

[05XR8]

I'd like to think all the variants of one model were his ideas. As well as museum features.

Track creator and the plug in car data thing, may have been his idea as experiments.
Motorsports/eSports were probably his ideas. eSports probably due to the past Nissan partnership and online data gathering. Just taking it that step further.

Everything else, I figure, are cash grabs.