GT Racing - GT1, GT3, Blancpain Endurance Series & National GT SeriesSports Cars

[Bo]

If we're going on about how we should consider safety, then the Nürburgring* should just be banned.


*Nordschleife.

...Apart from the fact it meets all required safety standards? This must've been covered 20 odd times already. It feels like people are being deliberately ignored.

The "blame the track" stance is a bit like sticking F1 or LMP1 cars on a kart track and then marching round saying how unsuitable the track is. If the track is considered perfectly safe for some cars (the karts in the analogy), then surely it's common sense that pushing the envelope on the car side will only result in something unsafe? Would you proceed to completely butcher a perfectly usable race track just so insanely fast cars could drive there without issue? Not every race track in the world needs to be suitable for absolutely every category of racing possible. It'd be a nice world if it was that way, but the reality is, it'd be a waste of time, money and effort.

Should we ban kart tracks? Should we ban local club circuits? They all meet lower standards than the 'Ring.

 

[super_gt]

And mistakes would likely be fatal. "Fans" with such wishes as yourself really have no place in motorsport.

Fortunately nobody can ban me to watch motorsport

 

[Downhill Dino]

My post was just an example of an extreme response. It doesn't matter if it fills all safety standards, it will still and always be a very dangerous track. I love the track, I have nothing against it, but if you want to fix things then perhaps look at the big picture.

 

[Bo]

Really, I would love DTM cars to run at the 'Ring again. But there is no way I'd feel comfortable watching it if the cars weren't pegged significantly.

 

[Tired Tyres]

On the spectator side, a simple extension of the fence (perhaps doubling the height of it and adding additional supporting poles running into the ground) would work.

So a car can hit the pole? Not really. Not standing where a car will end up if it all goes wrong is a better idea.

 

[Bo]

My post was just an example of an extreme response. It doesn't matter if it fills all safety standards, it will still and always be a very dangerous track. I love the track, I have nothing against it, but if you want to fix things then perhaps look at the big picture.

All tracks are dangerous, it all depends on what cars you stick on them. The big picture is... GT3 cars, in their current form, are unsuitable for the track. "Fixing" things by banning perfectly safe tracks is, again, ludicrous, and just falls back on what I said before.

 

[Furinkazen]

So a car can hit the pole? Not really. Not standing where a car will end up if it all goes wrong is a better idea.

I mean poles behind the fencing, providing more support.

Fences are currently installed in the ground like this, standing up by themselves (imagine the ! is the fence viewed from the side)

!


I was thinking if they are made taller, they obviously need some extra support for stability.
!\
! \
! \
! \

And I don't mean 1970's style crude wooden poles, i'm talking about stretching out into the spectator area behind the fence. They wouldn't have to be particularly large either, but would help support the fence.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

I want DTM back to Nordschleife,🤬 the ban!

Tell that to the parents of the kid that got killed.

Me and @daan have seen the damage first hand of a car jumping a catch fence it isn't pretty

 

[Downhill Dino]

All tracks are dangerous, it all depends on what cars you stick on them. The big picture is... GT3 cars, in their current form, are unsuitable for the track. "Fixing" things by banning perfectly safe tracks is, again, ludicrous, and just falls back on what I said before.

I don't think a track that has a higher chance of causing accidents is "perfectly safe". You're right though, putting a car that may have no place on the track probably will have consequences.

 

[super_gt]

Tell that to the parents of the kid that got killed.

Me and @daan have seen the damage first hand of a car jumping a catch fence it isn't pretty

By this logic racing on Circuit de la Sarthe also should be ban.
Do you remember this:


It is a miracle that there are no casualties in this crash.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Though I understand the reaction to this situation, personally it still falls under what I'd deem acceptable, but then we all have different limits. As @hsv says, where do we draw the line? That's not really a decision any of us can really have much influence on, however I still call BS if it's done in the name of spectators, unless we also push to ban nearly all forms of Rallying and Road Racing, including stuff like the TT and PPIHC. I don't see much justification for GT3 being castrated and not things which are blatantly more dangerous for all involved.

 

[Bo]

I think there's a difference between a car vaulting tyres and killing someone, and a car getting kept on the right side of the tyre wall and not injuring anyone...

 

[Furinkazen]

By this logic racing on Circuit de la Sarthe also should be ban.
Do you remember this:


It is a miracle that there are no casualties in this crash.

Bit different. A car didn't just take off by design. Also that car stayed within track boundaries.

 

[super_gt]

Let me remind you this:
REMOVED

or this


or this
REMOVED


My condolences to the relatives of the victims

 

[Downhill Dino]

The '55 Le Mans video and Allan Simonsen videos can't be posted.

 

[Bo]

a) 60 years old and completely unrelated to anything here.
b) Didn't vault anything, was contained inside the tyres, was a simple mistake that led to a larger crash.
c) Again, completely unrelated to any kind of discussion here; appears as though you're just posting fatal crash videos for the sake of doing so.

 

[super_gt]

a) 60 years old and completely unrelated to anything here.
b) Didn't vault anything, was contained inside the tyres, was a simple mistake that led to a larger crash.
c) Again, completely unrelated to any kind of discussion here; appears as though you're just posting fatal crash videos for the sake of doing so.

Casualties among audience,flying car,dead racing driver and not a single car class is banned form racing on this track.

 

[Bo]

Casualties among audience,flying car,dead racing driver and not single car class is baned form racing on this track.

You must be trolling here. It's the most nonsensical and disjointed argument I've ever seen. None of those correlate to anything here.

 

[Hun200kmh]

So a car can hit the pole? Not really. Not standing where a car will end up if it all goes wrong is a better idea.

This. I don't think GT3 cars should be banned from racing on the Nordschleife, although I can agree GT cars are getting a bit too fast.

This accident was a freak accident, as most serious crashes are. Sometimes the freakyness works for the bad (as it happened) sometimes it works for the good. Sorry but I have to smile to avoid a jaw drop in disbelief when I read, about Alan McNish's accident posted above, what can only be inferred as that it isn't relevant to compare (or consider a ban of LMP1s at La Sarthe) because the car stayed inside the track boundaries.

Indeed the car didn't roll over to the other side of the "track boundaries", but that was only the case by a freakish miracle. And also, it was again a freak thing that we didn't have several people killed right there and then, even with the car staying "inside the track boundaries".


From every crash and the way it unfolds the powers that be must always take lessons, and from these lessons keep on with what has been done in the last 100 years ... keep on improving safety.

But cars driven to the limit will always crash, and crashes will always be dangerous. Even if only 1 crash in 1000 causes someone to get hurt, or killed, we must still study it and find what/why/how did that particular crash have such a consequence, and what could, faced with the exact same set of circumstances and crash event, have avoided the injuries or fatalities.

And in this case the answer is so obvious one really must be blind to miss it. It's not that the car is too fast, it's not that it can get unbalanced over a hump ... it's not that it CAN CRASH (because all cars can, that's motor racing) or that SOMETHING CAN GO WRONG (because that's always a possibility in a track where several cars fight for position at speed and while being driven to the limit of their grip and braking ability, among other aspects taken to their limit).

It is simply that the spectators can be seated in the place where a car that crashes might end up ... crashing!

To end ... the picture below depicts a miracle (the car didn't touch one single of these and no one got hurt, while ALL could have been killed there and then). What's the lesson here? Ban rallying? Ban Clios because they're too fast and/or unstable at speed? Ban special stages?

I think the answer here is as obvious as with Jann's accident, where no miracle happened. With one big plus for the NS. Being a closed track you can easily set whgere the spectators can seat to watch the race. Something less obviously easy in rallying.

 

[Snaeper]

@hsv I understand your points, I was specifically saying that he was coming into a section called the Airport and caught air. It's a wonder it hadn't happened sooner, but it is of course related to how fast the cars are going.

I will say though, that having seen the particularly graphic crash video, there is a likely chance that many injuries and the fatality could've been avoided as the car stays behind the secondary fence for the most part and there a lot of people in front of it.

 

[Furinkazen]

Casualties among audience,flying car,dead racing driver and not a single car class is banned form racing on this track.

Apart from the fact (not for the first time either) you are again contributing totally worthless, pointless drivel to a discussion, i'll remind you of one thing - the Le Mans disaster did actually lead to a car class being banned. All of them actually, banned in Switzerland in a nationwide motorsports ban that is only being lifted this year with Formula E.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Apart from the fact (not for the first time either) you are again contributing totally worthless, pointless drivel to a discussion, i'll remind you of one thing - the Le Mans disaster did actually lead to a car class being banned. All of them actually, banned in Switzerland in a nationwide motorsports ban that is only being lifted this year with Formula E.

And Mercedes to quit Motorsport for a long time.

 

[Snaeper]

What I believe to be the course of action that DMSB, ADAC and VLN need to take is this:

• Find a short term solution to allow the teams in GT3 and other temporarily banned machinery to complete their scheduled seasons. This may require certain areas of the track to be prohibited for spectators for the remainder of the year.
• The following year, explore the option of banning FIA GT3 machines altogether, introducing a special spec that permits modified GT3 cars that are safer for competition on the track. Possibly even introducing a minimum-lap time and penalizing teams if they exceed it.
• Nurburgring specific machines like the Lexus LFA and SCG-003 are continued to be permitted as is as long as they are reliably safe. They too must adhere to the minimum-lap time as well. Begin encouraging manufacturers and teams to enter GT machinery that is developed primarily for the Nurburgring to ensure safety and add even more character to the event.
• Fans absolutely must remain in safe areas such as behind both fences.
• Consider the possibility of a spec tire for GT that could help bring down the outright speed by controlling the amount of grip safely.

I believe this event needs to keep some kind of exotic machinery at the front if it is to remain relevant. I would hate to see all of the excitement stripped away from this event in the name of safety. The amount of people who want to watch a race full of slow cars is smaller than those who prefer a little element of danger and thrill. But the danger and thrill needs to stay on the track and not reach beyond the track. The drivers know it's dangerous, but the fans shouldn't pay the price.

 

[05XR8]

Bathurst 12H. Production based cars for the longest time. GT3 cars introduced and it gives no hope to those that don't have the funds. Sure we all want to see fast cars. That's the nature of racing. The DTM cars also ended any hope of a production car winning the 24H. Thunderhill have GT3 cars as well. They are the flavor of this era. All these races have different classes no doubt. These cars are faster and safer than yesterday.

Instead of banning, why not keep GT3 cars and make AWD viable? Audi didn't win all the time in BTCC. Nor in DTM(Alfa had no competition and don't anyone bring in IMSA).

The more I watch Super GT videos before GT3, it is such a good championship. 500hp and 300hp classes. That's good enough for thrilling racing.

 

[Clark]

Audi won their first season in BTCC and came second in the drivers title in their second year. After that 4WD was banned.

Why would 4WD make GT3 any safer?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Casualties among audience,flying car,dead racing driver and not a single car class is banned form racing on this track.

Bad luck, if you're going to quote motorsport history on a site full of the world's most knowledgeable motorsport fans (in my experience, at least) then you need to get your facts right. And you didn't, you were way off.

 

[05XR8]

Audi won their first season in BTCC and came second in the drivers title in their second year. After that 4WD was banned.

Why would 4WD make GT3 any safer?

AWD not for safety. My stance on safety is make any circuit safe, first. AWD in the sense to change dynamics of a GT3 car.

 

[Clark]

It's aerodynamics and speed that caused the car to get airborne. It'd wouldn't have changed that if the car was 4WD. What could would having the front wheels driven do when they're off the ground?

 

[catamount39]

Look just make the power and weight levels like GTE...we can't ruin GT3, it's got the best manufacturer support of any class.

 

[Snaeper]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/...c-nordrhein-confirms-n24-qualifying-race.html

The DMSB is still working on the circumstances of the accident, and is focusing it’s work on all the cars that have a similar characteristic than the Nissan.

In regards to next week round table Hornung said: “If the meeting sees any changes to the cars or the regulations the 24 Hours Qualifying Race would be the ideal testing event.”

Promising news in regards to the cars returning to the track.