GT Sport beta physics discussion - Read the First Post Before Replying

[praiano63]

Good to see you back and get your thoughts on the beta. Have you been able to try the clutch/shifter with any cars?

I´m not a clutch aficionado but i´ve tested it for race start and it didn´t work for my G29 at least.

 

[Imari]

LOL, if that's neutral then it's impossible to drive that car in any speeds with throttle applied, coz even on slow slow rolling speed with throttle or without (lifted gently off) it's not turning that much what you now say "neutral".

Why would driving like that as a neutral state (ie, when neither end is particularly slipping, which is what you show in the video) make it undriveable? That's how cars work.

I mean, you're doing between 60 and 90 kph, which isn't exactly fast, on racing softs. Why would turning at those speeds be undriveable? Seems perfectly reasonable that you can turn quite tight.

I can do that in the real world in my own car. One shouldn't take a roundabout at 50kph, but one could take a similar bend on a race track at that speed if one so wished. It doesn't require hanging the back out, it can be done within the limits of grip if you have decent tyres (which racing softs definitely are).

Why should the game simulate lift off oversteer in that situation at all? Did you simply choose an awful scenario to try and demonstrate your superior "understanding" of the game, one in which lift off oversteer wouldn't be expected even from a perfect simulation?

I have a suggestion. Try it on realistic rubber, sports hard or something. If the back is going to go, it will on those tyres. If the car is understeering it will be far more obvious. I'm actually surprised that you were doing it on racing tyres, because that would seem to mask the whole thing when the point is to evaluate slip. You can't see anything if you can't get the tyres slipping.

Perhaps you're not quite as on top of this as you think you are? Don't worry, car dynamics is a complex field and it can take people years to come to grips (ha!) with it.

Oversteer isn't thing what can happen only on rear. It can be on either end, and it doesn't need full traction loss to be "oversteer".
Same goes to understeer..
Normal driving physics of tire contact pads are only different amounts of slip factor and grip (friction), if you don't know that don't blame me for pointing it out to you.

Uh, not really, no. Oversteer is a comparison between the front and rear, but it ONLY happens when the rear slips more. Front oversteer is called understeer. Rear understeer is called oversteer.

It can be complicated, but you're learning.

On my "skid pad" video car isn't understeering, I'm searching maximum speed where car is on limit of understeer/traction loss, exactly as your video is asking to do.

"I'm not understeering, I'm just trying to get the car to understeer."

Wut?

If you call dog as car then it's not my fault.

I'd say from the responses of other people that most seem to share a similar definition to me of oversteer. You're the only one I can see with your...whatever it is.

I think you could probably benefit from a little humbleness and learning to accept when you're wrong. You'll learn faster, and then maybe one day you'll be able to share your now accurate knowledge with others. Nobody is a genius straight out of the gate, the smartest people are the ones who have got it all wrong and had the willingness to accept that and learn what is right.

I know you're going to say that's me, but take a moment and see if there isn't anything about your own views that you think might warrant re-examination. I don't claim that I've got everything right, but so far I'm not seeing anything where your "explanation" better fits the facts than my own. At least not for the way I use the English language.

YMMV, what with you not being a native speaker and all, but then one might have expected you to be a little less adamant that you're an authority on language in that case. There's nothing wrong with misunderstanding terms, but there is something wrong with doubling down when it's clear that you don't understand properly.

 

[OdeFinn]

Why would driving like that as a neutral state (ie, when neither end is particularly slipping, which is what you show in the video) make it undriveable? That's how cars work.

Neutral state is when car is following driving wheel inputs 1:1 and that's tested on low to mid speeds, every moment where same steering input is giving bigger radius turn is called understeer (doesn't matter which end causes), and every moment where same steering input is giving smaller radius turn is called oversteer, again no matter which end causes this overturning aka oversteer.

I have a suggestion. Try it on realistic rubber, sports hard or something. If the back is going to go, it will on those tyres. If the car is understeering it will be far more obvious. I'm actually surprised that you were doing it on racing tyres, because that would seem to mask the whole thing when the point is to evaluate slip. You can't see anything if you can't get the tyres slipping.

Oversteer isn't "limited" to cases where your friction on ground is totally lost and you started drifting, for testing purposes RS was good and solid tires to show turn radius changes, but you just refused to look them, or just doesn't understand what you were looking.

Perhaps you're not quite as on top of this as you think you are? Don't worry, car dynamics is a complex field and it can take people years to come to grips (ha!) with it.

Some people says at electricity comes from wall plug, others just know where it truly comes.

Uh, not really, no. Oversteer is a comparison between the front and rear, but it ONLY happens when the rear slips more. Front oversteer is called understeer. Rear understeer is called oversteer.

It can be complicated, but you're learning.

Using quote from Wikipedia, thing what's coming from SAE definition of oversteer/understeer, to minimize possible wrong understandings and language barrier stuff.
Start is easy definition, and includes wall plug

"Understeer and oversteer are vehicle dynamics terms used to describe the sensitivity of a vehicle to steering. Simply put, oversteer is what occurs when a car turns (steers) by more than the amount commanded by the driver. Conversely, understeer is what occurs when a car steers less than the amount commanded by the driver.

Automotive engineers define understeer and oversteer based on changes in steering angle associated with changes in lateral acceleration over a sequence of steady-state circular turning tests. Car and motorsport enthusiasts often use the terminology more generally in magazines and blogs to describe vehicle response to steering in all kinds of maneuvers."

Then definition part

"Standard terminology used to describe understeer and oversteer are defined by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) in document J670[1] and by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) in document 8855.[2] By these terms, understeer and oversteer are based on differences in steady-state conditions where the vehicle is following a constant-radius path at a constant speed with a constant steering wheel angle, on a flat and level surface.

Understeer and oversteer are defined by an understeer gradient K that is a measure of how the steering needed for a steady turn changes as a function of lateral acceleration. Steering at a steady speed is compared to the steering that would be needed to follow the same circular path at low speed. The low-speed steering for a given radius of turn is called Ackermann steer. The vehicle has a positive understeer gradient if the difference between required steer and the Ackermann steer increases with respect to incremental increases in lateral acceleration. The vehicle has a negative gradient if the difference in steer decreases with respect to incremental increases in lateral acceleration.

Understeer and oversteer are formally defined using the gradient K: if K is positive, the vehicle shows understeer; if K is negative, the vehicle shows oversteer; if K is zero, the vehicle is neutral.

Several tests can be used to determine understeer gradient: constant radius (repeat tests at different speeds), constant speed (repeat tests with different steering angles), or constant steer (repeat tests at different speeds). Formal descriptions of these three kinds of testing are provided by ISO.[3] Gillespie goes into some detail on two of the measurement methods.[4]

Results depend on the type of test, so simply giving a deg/g value is not sufficient; it is also necessary to indicate the type of procedure used to measure the gradient.

Vehicles are inherently nonlinear systems, and it is normal for K to vary over the range of testing. It is possible for a vehicle to be understeer in some conditions and oversteer in others. Therefore, it is necessary to specify the speed and lateral acceleration whenever reporting understeer/oversteer characteristics."

I think you could probably benefit from a little humbleness and learning to accept when you're wrong. You'll learn faster, and then maybe one day you'll be able to share your now accurate knowledge with others. Nobody is a genius straight out of the gate, the smartest people are the ones who have got it all wrong and had the willingness to accept that and learn what is right.

That's partially true, just don't fit in this case. Check definition of oversteer/understeer.

 

[Imari]

That's partially true, just don't fit in this case. Check definition of oversteer/understeer.

Congratulations. You now understand oversteer and understeer. Hopefully, given that you copypasta'd instead of using your own words.

Now demonstrate how it's happening in that video you posted. By your own admission, the car is on the edge of understeer as you drive with the throttle open.

With the throttle closed, the balance of the car changes and the speeds and steering angles at which the car will be neutral, understeering and oversteering change. At the same speed, it may now be neutral or oversteering. The car will at best pass through neutral on it's way to oversteer. As it slows, it becomes less and less likely to be oversteering for the same amount of steering lock, as there's less work for the tyres to do to turn the car.

But you haven't shown any of that. You've shown a car driving a decreasing radius circle as it slows down, as cars will when you get off the gas. Maybe it's because the GT6 camera isn't great at it and it's not helped by the shaky cam video work. Maybe it's just because you're not accentuating the effect enough to be visible on a video. Who knows.

I suggested that you try lower grip tyres because if there is an effect there, it will accentuate it. Nobody can argue if the back of the car comes around and it spins. If the back steps out by three millimeters, who can tell? In your video, visually the car is neutral. When I do it with that car in GT6, the car is neutral.

If you can feel the oversteer through your wheel, then great. But you'll have to do something differently to show it. And you can, as I've told you, but you choose not to and instead appeal to authority by asking us to trust you.

When someone asks you to trust them, that's the exact point at which you should stop trusting them. If it's a real effect, then you can show us. If it's not, then you'll keep asking us to take your word for it. Academics talk, engineers demonstrate.

 

[OdeFinn]

Congratulations. You now understand oversteer and understeer. Hopefully, given that you copypasta'd instead of using your own words.

Now demonstrate how it's happening in that video you posted. By your own admission, the car is on the edge of understeer as you drive with the throttle open.

With the throttle closed, the balance of the car changes and the speeds and steering angles at which the car will be neutral, understeering and oversteering change. At the same speed, it may now be neutral or oversteering. The car will at best pass through neutral on it's way to oversteer. As it slows, it becomes less and less likely to be oversteering for the same amount of steering lock, as there's less work for the tyres to do to turn the car.

But you haven't shown any of that. You've shown a car driving a decreasing radius circle as it slows down, as cars will when you get off the gas. Maybe it's because the GT6 camera isn't great at it and it's not helped by the shaky cam video work. Maybe it's just because you're not accentuating the effect enough to be visible on a video. Who knows.

I suggested that you try lower grip tyres because if there is an effect there, it will accentuate it. Nobody can argue if the back of the car comes around and it spins. If the back steps out by three millimeters, who can tell? In your video, visually the car is neutral. When I do it with that car in GT6, the car is neutral.

If you can feel the oversteer through your wheel, then great. But you'll have to do something differently to show it. And you can, as I've told you, but you choose not to and instead appeal to authority by asking us to trust you.

When someone asks you to trust them, that's the exact point at which you should stop trusting them. If it's a real effect, then you can show us. If it's not, then you'll keep asking us to take your word for it. Academics talk, engineers demonstrate.

In my video I'm driving at speed where steering angle versus turn radius is 1:1 same as it would be on slower speed, so called neutral state, steering angle affect same turn radius if driving slower than in video, in other words it is on neutral state during tests. Turn radius gets smaller only because of sudden throttle lift, if same steering angle is kept and slowing car speed gently car will stay on same turn radius, not oversteering or understeering, but if throttle is lifted "quickly" car mass drops on front wheels and made them turn car over that neutral turn radius, making turn radius smaller and forcing car front to point inside of turn.
Throttle amount what I'm using is "maximum" without having understeer and keeping car on neutral turn.
Turn radius after lift-off is impossible with current steering angle on wheel, you just can't get car turn that tight turn with same steering wheel angle, it's possible only if rear mass gets lightened and front oversteer, rear steering/force to keep car straight is reduced so much at it allows tighter radius turn on car than steering input is creating. Using RS tires just to get this visible easiest way, you just want that drifting effect to be seen and that's not happening on RS, but weight reduction on rear is clearly seen because car takes lot tighter turn radius after lift-off, what was whole point to proof. It's possible to utilize this effect to produce those sliding rear drifts too, because that's imminent thing to happen when having less grip and physicsengine is counting above weight transfer and it's effect to turn radius, I don't see point to create setup where this rear "drift" is produced, it can be done and why it can is proven on videos already.

If you want that type of setup, and want to get it's realism checked then get me real life video where it's happening and specs of that car on video. Reason is simple, nearly any car can have setup what's prone to drift rear after lift-off, also nearly all of those same cars can be having setup what minimize or eliminate that effect.
Information needed, weight, weight distro, height (at least aprox and rake), spring rate/type, damper type/setup, camber and toe, possible differential locking, gears and final gear, clutch type, brakes used(not must but helps), tire compound(s) and sizes.
So get an example car setup and I'll do videos, currently no need for further proofs because it's already covered on videos.

Edited typo, there was can instead of can't

 

[z06fun]

But I mean when I look at real car alignment sheets they are no where what you see on GTS or GT6... They actually mimic what you see in PCars and AC very low .07 .01 .06. In GTS they are at like .65 I switched all the cars toe settings and I can tell you the cars become a lot more lively. I have to play more but I Still feel Pcars and AC bite you more when you have bad driving technique.

Its true, stock alignments don't generally get past .1 degree. However its very common to run much higher values in competition on production based cars where rules may limit the other suspension/wheel/tire related changes you can do.
Some high toe examples from a few of my past competition cars are like my AP1 S2000 I had up near 0.4 rear toe in, my 15 wrx 0.7 rear toe out, Eclipse GST and Integra Type R 0.5 rear toe out, C5 Z06 0.6 rear toe in. These toe values were helpful in compensating for limits of rules I was dealing with.
Im glad we have a high range of adjustment at least available in GTS, it can be very helpful.

Hello Johnny, good to read you again. For me they did not build the physics from scratch. It´s very similar to GT6 ,only tire physics that are a lot better and perhaps a new equation to resolve the RH problem. Who know... just a feeling. For sure the direction inputs benefit a lot from the new tire physics model. Great precision and reaction even with a big wheel angle sometimes. It didn´t happen in GT6.

Thats my feeling too, things seem like a definite improvement from GT6 and in general the tuning works more correctly with the new tire model. 👍

 

[Imari]

Turn radius after lift-off is impossible with current steering angle on wheel, you just can get car turn that tight turn with same steering wheel angle, it's possible only if rear mass gets lightened and front oversteer, rear steering/force to keep car straight is reduced so much at it allows tighter radius turn on car than steering input is creating.

Only if you're assuming absolutely zero understeer to start with.

Using RS tires just to get this visible easiest way, you just want that drifting effect to be seen and that's not happening on RS, but weight reduction on rear is clearly seen because car takes lot tighter turn radius after lift-off, what was whole point to proof. It's possible to utilize this effect to produce those sliding rear drifts too, because that's imminent thing to happen when having less grip and physicsengine is counting above weight transfer and it's effect to turn radius, I don't see point to create setup where this rear "drift" is produced, it can be done and why it can is proven on videos already.

Yes. Don't do it the way that would produce a clear result. Do it the way that requires interpretation of information that only you have access to, and then ask us to trust you that it's the case. Solid.

Reason is simple, nearly any car can have setup what's prone to drift rear after lift-off...

Of course it can. If the physics system works correctly. And even then, you can always cheat about put RS on the front and CH on the rear.

Information needed, weight, weight distro, height (at least aprox and rake), spring rate/type, damper type/setup, camber and toe, possible differential locking, gears and final gear, clutch type, brakes used(not must but helps), tire compound(s) and sizes.

Oh look, the inevitable request for me to prove your statements for you. That ain't how it works, sonny Jim. You claimed that cars with real setup values oversteer when lifting off correctly.



Totally stock Focus. The car basically snaps on him. And yet your video is so mild that it's arguable whether there's any oversteer occuring at all. Quite a difference in behaviour. Honestly, there are lots of Youtube videos with reviewers praising the Focus ST for it's ability to rotate off-throttle and it's near RWD like driving characteristics. It's what makes it such a great hot hatch.

Have at it. I still suggest a more realistic tyre, but you're under no obligation to take my advice. I just think it might help prove your point better, if you are indeed correct.

 

[EDK]

Then definition part

"Standard terminology used to describe understeer and oversteer are defined by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) in document J670[1] and by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) in document 8855.[2] By these terms, understeer and oversteer are based on differences in steady-state conditions where the vehicle is following a constant-radius path at a constant speed with a constant steering wheel angle, on a flat and level surface.

Understeer and oversteer are defined by an understeer gradient K that is a measure of how the steering needed for a steady turn changes as a function of lateral acceleration. Steering at a steady speed is compared to the steering that would be needed to follow the same circular path at low speed. The low-speed steering for a given radius of turn is called Ackermann steer. The vehicle has a positive understeer gradient if the difference between required steer and the Ackermann steer increases with respect to incremental increases in lateral acceleration. The vehicle has a negative gradient if the difference in steer decreases with respect to incremental increases in lateral acceleration.

Understeer and oversteer are formally defined using the gradient K: if K is positive, the vehicle shows understeer; if K is negative, the vehicle shows oversteer; if K is zero, the vehicle is neutral.

Can we please just stop with this "The book definition of oversteer is X" stuff, and have a productive conversation?

It's ludicrous to me that we are actually debating which car behavior can be characterized as oversteer.

I've been sim racing here for nearly 10 years, and track racing for more than 5 years, with 100+ hours and over 20 race events under my belt.

I have never, ever, ever heard someone say, "The front just suddenly snapped in on me, I'm not sure what happened".

Do you know why? Because that's not how it works. Oversteer is throttle induced. It can be induced/caused by too much throttle too early, OR by lifting off the throttle while the wheel is turned. That's not to say it WILL be induced in either of those scenarios. But in both cases, it happens because the REAR LOSES GRIP, relative to the front.

So please just stop posting links to Wikipedia and the dictionary to argue fictional points with respect to what oversteer actually is.

From a racing standpoint, we know what it is. And to debate that it means the "front is turning too much" is a silly argument bound to lead to unproductive discussions.

Have at it. I still suggest a more realistic tyre, but you're under no obligation to take my advice. I just think it might help prove your point better, if you are indeed correct.

IMO, the best way to show lift off oversteer in an FF on GT is to stagger the compounds, grippier in the front than the rear. Want FF lift off oversteer? Try SS front, SH rear. 👍

 

[JDMKING13]

Thats why I tend to run a less grippier tire on the back of my FF cars, its a little extra but it really makes the cars come alive for the FF...

 

[EDK]

Thats why I tend to run a less grippier tire on the back of my FF cars, its a little extra but it really makes the cars come alive for the FF...

And guys who build FF road cars and race them set them up so the rear does almost nothing at all. They weld the diff and when they exit low speed turns, the outside rear wheel comes completely off the ground 2-4 inches.

 

[OdeFinn]

Only if you're assuming absolutely zero understeer to start with.

Neutral state, as it should by definition of neutral state. Car follows same path on same steering input on slower speeds as on testing speed at video, which means at it is going on neutral.

Yes. Don't do it the way that would produce a clear result. Do it the way that requires interpretation of information that only you have access to, and then ask us to trust you that it's the case. Solid.

If take white painted line on video as reference point you'll see clearly how turn radius changes after lift-off.

Of course it can. If the physics system works correctly. And even then, you can always cheat about put RS on the front and CH on the rear.

No point to cheat, tire choices are anyway visible, reason why asking real-life setup to get setup as identical as possible for realism comparison.

Totally stock Focus. The car basically snaps on him. And yet your video is so mild that it's arguable whether there's any oversteer occuring at all. Quite a difference in behaviour.

Definition of stock varies lot, specs needed, I can get some part of ST specs, maybe "close to stock" information, but for accuracy needed better specs.
@Ridox2JZGTE do you have full specs for stock ST or RS which are presented in GT6?

Have at it. I still suggest a more realistic tyre, but you're under no obligation to take my advice. I just think it might help prove your point better, if you are indeed correct.

Again you just want to see drift, physics calculations what will provide drift are there, as seen on videos, just get me full specs.
Why asking full specs is simple, manufacturer tolerances allow really crazy amount of different combinations and those RS/ST owners are complained lot of quality how wildly their "stock" alignments are out from identical setup per side, car can be having 0.00 toe left front and -0.15 at right front and it's in tolerance, it can have -0.1° camber on left front and -1.2° right front and it's still "stock" normal and inside allowed tolerances from manufacturer.

 

[mirial]

Just a quick question to those playing Beta.

Has anyone established any optimum ride heights at all? Just curious to know if one the biggest anomalies in GT is still just that.

 

[EDK]

No point to cheat, tire choices are anyway visible, reason why asking real-life setup to get setup as identical as possible for realism comparison.

Why are you interested in realism but using Race Softs on an FF road car?

 

[OdeFinn]

Why are you interested in realism but using Race Softs on an FF road car?

Realism of Physics Engine can be shown with those, drifting not.

 

[EDK]

Just a quick question to those playing Beta.

Has anyone established any optimum ride heights at all? Just curious to know if one the biggest anomalies in GT is still just that.

I messed with it a little bit last night in the TTS road car at Brands Hatch. I did the nose pointed to the sky thing, and it seemed to tighten the car up, which is theoretically what it should do, and NOT what used to happen on the initial physics model used on GT5, as well as all models used on GT6.

I need to test it more, in more cars, more places, with a wider variety of settings to say for sure. But it seems promising.

Realism of Physics Engine can be shown with those, drifting not.

Because, after all, the car was engineered and the game set up with the softest imaginable compound in mind, right?

 

[Imari]

Neutral state, as it should by definition of neutral state. Car follows same path on same steering input on slower speeds as on testing speed at video, which means at it is going on neutral.

So you say. Like the oversteer, it's not visible.

Again you just want to see drift, physics calculations what will provide drift are there, as seen on videos, just get me full specs.

I want to see something conclusion. Snap oversteer is conclusive.

And I've already told you I'm not doing your work for you. You already used that Focus as a demo. Are you saying now that you didn't have real specs on it? I thought that was your whole point, that realistic specs made the car behave realistically?

Realism of Physics Engine can be shown with those, drifting not.

The realism of the physics engine can be shown with an unrealistic tyre? Two wrongs generally don't make a right, but it happens occasionally.

 

[EDK]

The realism of the physics engine can be shown with an unrealistic tyre? Two wrongs generally don't make a right, but it happens occasionally.

Right, this is the hilarious part.

No better way to put crazy understeer on a road car on GT than to put race tires on it. Even with race cars, sometimes moving up one compound can make a dynamic difference in the behavior.

 

[grind mouse]

Delete.
But nice thread!

 

[SDSPOWER01]

Apart of this whole "lift off oversteer" debate. The physics discussion is about GT Sport and I would like to see if its actually represented in GT sport as I know it was barely visible in GT6. After all this is GT sport beta physics discussion.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Apart of this whole "lift off oversteer" debate. The physics discussion is about GT Sport and I would like to see if its actually represented in GT sport as I know it was barely visible in GT6. After all this is GT sport beta physics discussion.

Like previous GT titles, probably the most concise answer is 'Sort of, but Not Really.'

 

[JDMKING13]

Apart of this whole "lift off oversteer" debate. The physics discussion is about GT Sport and I would like to see if its actually represented in GT sport as I know it was barely visible in GT6. After all this is GT sport beta physics discussion.

I think it is present in the Evo and the Audi tts I have not felt so much in the focus st or majority of the GR3 GR4 cars. I feel it in the R8 GR3 car. I run the N300 cars with CM tires and corrected toe alignment, I think the worst offender is the Audi TTS it's really a handfull to keep that car balance. Your inputs have to be smooth, now don't get me wrong where I would like to GTS get better is how it's easy to save the car. When doing TT you can comfortably catch the car yes you will loose time but you still comfortable. In AC or Pcars once I start to loose the car I get that oh 🤬 feeling. If I catch the car I am really happy. I think its a little over the top in AC in Pcars but I prefer that then in GTS I would like them to make it a little harder. As I play the game more the physics are growing on me for sure!

 

[OdeFinn]

And I've already told you I'm not doing your work for you. You already used that Focus as a demo. Are you saying now that you didn't have real specs on it? I thought that was your whole point, that realistic specs made the car behave realistically?

Focus is only there because @super_gt pointed out that car.
Like mentioned in earlier messages it has only real-life wheel alignments, others as is stock from PD, so setup is not replica overall.
If realism is wanted and you won't provide setup for that or @Ridox2JZGTE doesn't have it then I can choose some other car which setup is available from real-life. Supposedly I need to pick FWD car for demonstration or do you approve tests made with aftermarket suspension values?

The realism of the physics engine can be shown with an unrealistic tyre? Two wrongs generally don't make a right, but it happens occasionally.

Right, this is the hilarious par

Truly this is hilarious, my phone has been ringing a lot and we were having joyful conversations with friends about levels of Physics understanding.

 

[EDK]

Apart of this whole "lift off oversteer" debate. The physics discussion is about GT Sport and I would like to see if its actually represented in GT sport as I know it was barely visible in GT6. After all this is GT sport beta physics discussion.

Lifting off definitely helps the car turn in better. Braking while turning has a more dramatic effect than in the past.

Example - Turn 1 Brands Hatch (Paddock Hill Bend) my approach used to be to drive down the middle of the track and use the large white line in the middle as a reference point for braking. I would brake as a I turned in, and trail brake to the apex.

I tried that same technique last night, and it was woefully inadequate. I needed to get all the way track left, brake in a straight line, and lift to the apex. This was in the Audi TTS road car.

With the setup looser, this actually resulted in some degree of lift off oversteer.

To me, lifting the throttle always helped the car turn better on GT, it's more a matter of whether it's "correct" I generally think the FF and AWD cars remain a bit understeery, but they are better than on GT5 and GT6.

 

[mirial]

I messed with it a little bit last night in the TTS road car at Brands Hatch. I did the nose pointed to the sky thing, and it seemed to tighten the car up, which is theoretically what is should do, and NOT what used to happen on the initial physics model used on GT5, as well as all models used on GT6.

I need to test it more, in more cars, more places, with a wider variety of settings to say for sure. But it seems promising.

Ok thanks. It really is one of the most confusing things which contradicts what all the boffins say, in that "lower is better", but I don't think KW would have put it just because it's a game or if it's some kind of quick fix to get around other variables.

I can understand why lower is generally better, but I'm only speculating that the reason why raising the car up often, and in particular with cars less than 1100kg with lots of downforce, works very well because they aren't limited by mid-corner grip on many tracks so you can afford to actually transfer more weight initially before the car begins to slide; the more vertical load you place on an object, the harder it is to get moving initially. Also, the Tarmac texture itself plays a huge part in this which creates problems in generating adhesion. Back in the days of RC cars on dusty floors, it was common practice to run cars with high ride-heights to get the tyres to bite, but this had to be carefully controlled with soft springs at the same time.

Apparently many single seater drivers in reality use preload to initially increase weight transfer on to the front wheels, so you end up with the outside front very heavily loaded before any hard cornering takes place - once the preload is overcome, normal chassis roll takes effect, otherwise you'll end up with the front tyres exceeding their limit because of too much weight transfer.

 

[EDK]

Ok thanks. It really is one of the most confusing things which contradicts what all the boffins say, in that "lower is better", but I don't think KW would have put it just because it's a game or if it's some kind of quick fix to get around other variables.

I can understand why lower is generally better, but I'm only speculating that the reason why raising the car up often, and in particular with cars less than 1100kg with lots of downforce, works very well because they aren't limited by mid-corner grip on many tracks so you can afford to actually transfer more weight initially before the car begins to slide; the more vertical load you place on an object, the harder it is to get moving initially.

Apparently many single seater drivers in reality use preload to initially increase weight transfer on to the front wheels, so you end up with the outside front very heavily loaded before any hard cornering takes place - once the preload is overcome, normal chassis roll takes affect, otherwise you'll end up with the front tyres exceeding their limit because of too much weight transfer.

Yeah, the whole raise the ride height all the way up on both ends thing..........

Not sure about that one yet. I have heard anecdotally that it's not the same. And I would believe that, based on what I found with the change I tried last night.

I was just very limited on time, but I plan to dive into it this weekend.

I am not one of those crazy tuning garage guys, but I normally make my own tunes when we run Time Trials with tuning in WRS, and my tunes are generally well received. I definitely have an idea of tuning direction on GT5 and GT6, and can get a good idea of how GTS compares.

The thing I worry about is whether what we are experiencing now will even translate to the final product. If you don't understand my concern, see GT5: Prologue vs. GT5.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

@OdeFinn and @EDK : Not sure if what I have can help with this lift off oversteer discussion, but this is what I have for the Focus RS MK1, the GT6 car in stock form is horrible IMO, the weight and distribution for instance, is messed up. The real car has over 62% front and curb weight is closer to 1300kg, in GT6, the most it can have is 1250kg and only 58% front, in stock form the RS has 52% front, more like FR than FF . The tune below is really old creation of mine, it was done when I did the 2013 ST. There are 3 main tracks used to test the car, Autumn Ring, London, and Brands Hatch Indy, these tracks should give clear idea how the car handle. Brake balance is 5/1, I highly recommend to try this first, as this was the BB used and it was more than enough with no ABS. Increase rear BB as needed, IMO 5/2 is more than enough. Use shifter+clutch/wheel if possible, should be more fun than with stick controller ( DS2 here ) I also have Evora that I recently updated, that car is a lot more fun than the Focus RS.


CAR : Ford Focus RS '02
Tire : Comfort Medium

Specs
Horsepower: 212 HP / 215 PS at 5500 RPM
Torque : 221.3 ft-lb at 4000 RPM
Power Limiter at : 97.9%
Weight: 1250 kg
Ballast : 200 kg
Ballast Position : -50
Weight Distribution : 58/42 - Should be 62.x/37, it's as close as it can be.
Performance Points: 420


GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED )
Wheels : Stock
Car Paint : Stock



Tuning Parts Installed :
Fully Customizable Suspension
Adjustable LSD



Suspension - SVT Spring Adapted - Closest Possible, can't get low enough
OEM Alignment Range/Stock Ride Height
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 155 155 - Optional - Corrected front should be 170, rear 155 ( visual reference )
Spring Rate: 2.80 3.40
Dampers (Compression): 2 6
Dampers (Extension): 5 4
Anti-Roll Bars: 7 1 - Optional -Increase rear ARB up to 7, see what happens.
Camber Angle: 1.5 1.0
Toe Angle: -0.09 0.07


LSD - OEM Quaife ATB LSD

Initial Torque : 5
Acceleration Sensitivity: 30
Braking Sensitivity: 5


Brake Balance:
5/1 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 5/1, for ABS 1 - 5/1.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 5/1 brake balance as starting point.

Take it to the Ring as well, I'm curious how it will drive there with wheel/shifter 👍 Good luck.

 

[EDK]

@OdeFinn and @EDK : Not sure if what I have can help with this lift off oversteer discussion, but this is what I have for the Focus RS MK1, the GT6 car in stock form is horrible IMO, the weight and distribution for instance, is messed up. The real car has over 62% front and curb weight is closer to 1300kg, in GT6, the most it can have is 1250kg and only 58% front, in stock form the RS has 52% front, more like FR than FF . The tune below is really old creation of mine, it was done when I did the 2013 ST. There are 3 main tracks used to test the car, Autumn Ring, London, and Brands Hatch Indy, these tracks should give clear idea how the car handle. Brake balance is 5/1, I highly recommend to try this first, as this was the BB used and it was more than enough with no ABS. Increase rear BB as needed, IMO 5/2 is more than enough. Use shifter+clutch/wheel if possible, should be more fun than with stick controller ( DS2 here ) I also have Evora that I recently updated, that car is a lot more fun than the Focus RS.


CAR : Ford Focus RS '02
Tire : Comfort Medium

Specs
Horsepower: 212 HP / 215 PS at 5500 RPM
Torque : 221.3 ft-lb at 4000 RPM
Power Limiter at : 97.9%
Weight: 1250 kg
Ballast : 200 kg
Ballast Position : -50
Weight Distribution : 58/42 - Should be 62.x/37, it's as close as it can be.
Performance Points: 420


GT AUTO
NO Oil change
Improve Body Rigidity ( NOT INSTALLED )
Wheels : Stock
Car Paint : Stock



Tuning Parts Installed :
Fully Customizable Suspension
Adjustable LSD



Suspension - SVT Spring Adapted - Closest Possible, can't get low enough
OEM Alignment Range/Stock Ride Height
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 155 155 - Optional - Corrected front should be 170, rear 155
Spring Rate: 2.80 3.40
Dampers (Compression): 2 6
Dampers (Extension): 5 4
Anti-Roll Bars: 7 1
Camber Angle: 1.5 1.0
Toe Angle: -0.09 0.07


LSD - OEM Quaife ATB LSD

Initial Torque : 5
Acceleration Sensitivity: 30
Braking Sensitivity: 5


Brake Balance:
5/1 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 5/1, for ABS 1 - 5/1.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 5/1 brake balance as starting point.

Take it to the Ring as well, I'm curious how it will drive there with wheel/shifter 👍 Good luck.

The Focus RS on GT6 is also a lot of fun in stock form with Sports Medium Front and Sports Hard rear.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gtp_wrs-week-52-focus-on-the-apex.322419/

But this discussion related more to GT Sport physics. Are you suggesting we try it on GTS? I don't have a Focus at this point.

 

[cutmeamango]

I have the Ford Focus on GTS and it only has lift-off oversteer when I'm at 200km/h and I sharply turn into the grass. Wet tires.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I quoted you @EDK just in case if you are interested to try the Focus RS setup on GT6, see if what @OdeFinn finds with the car if he tried it, is similar to your finding Yes, mixing up tire compound on FF car in GT6 can be an easy way to have more fun, less rear tire grip, CM/CH also can be fun.

If you have the Evora on GTS, you can try my setup from GT6 on the GTS car, I recently updated the car. The Evora should have 39/61 distribution if PD fix the car in GTS. Link : https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...em-s2000-cizeta.294814/page-137#post-11117412

 

[JDMKING13]

I quoted you @EDK just in case if you are interested to try the Focus RS setup on GT6, see if what @OdeFinn finds with the car if he tried it, is similar to your finding Yes, mixing up tire compound on FF car in GT6 can be an easy way to have more fun, less rear tire grip, CM/CH also can be fun.

If you have the Evora on GTS, you can try my setup from GT6 on the GTS car, I recently updated the car. The Evora should have 39/61 distribution if PD fix the car in GTS. Link : https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...em-s2000-cizeta.294814/page-137#post-11117412

Damn I wish I had the Evora, as soon as I get it I will get back to you!