GT Sport beta physics discussion - Read the First Post Before Replying

[Imari]

During cornering tires are continuously slipping on their slip angle, when throttle is lifted and weight is transferred toward front tires their grip factor rises and slip factor reduces making car front grab more turn in, when car starts to steer more than your applied steering angle on wheel is at current speed it's called "oversteering" because it starts to turn more on identical steering angle at current speed.
If your only change prior this above mentioned oversteering is lifting throttle it get a new name: "lift-off oversteer".

Not if you're understeering beforehand. Then you're simply going from understeer to neutral.

Oversteer is when the rear of the car is slipping sideways more than the front. It makes the car rotate and the car will spin unless you deal with that somehow, like countersteering.

See how easy it is to explain when you don't try and sound smart by making up words like grip factor and slip factor?

What you have in that video is a car understeering because it has too much throttle applied for the amount of lock, and then a car turning well below the threshold of grip at all four corners. That's all. I don't see how you can see anything else in that, especially not anything like what was in the video I posted. There is nothing remotely resembling the above description of oversteer.

You're seeing understeer in places where it's not present, and not seeing oversteer where it is present.

You should really now take a small rest from replying and check few facts and then come back and reply. TY

Yeah...no. I suggest you look up what "oversteer" and "understeer" actually mean, because it's clear you're not using them to mean the same things as the rest of us.

A bit rude!

A bit necessary by the looks of it. And not entirely successful. Although we have established that his definition of oversteer is not the same as the rest of GTP.

Most of FWD cars in real life wont oversteer if you lift-off because if they did, a lot of people would be killed, including me. They have a safer set-up from factory to prevent things like that from happening, and the more track focused the car is, the more loose the rear set-up will be, and the same thing can be experienced on GT6, that is why i mentioned the 01' Civic.

This is true. For your average daily driver. However hot hatches are generally tuned to encourage a bit of lift off oversteer, because that's a major tool for FWDs to be able to go fast. Without the ability to kick the back out and tuck the nose in, it can be very hard to adjust your angle mid-corner. And it's just not as much fun.

And lift-off oversteer is not just a question of lifting off and oversteering, you have to work in conjunction with weight transfer for that oversterr to kick in. So it is more like steer-lift-off oversteer.

That's sort of a given. If you lift off with no steering lock on you're just lifting off in a straight line. Without some sort of lateral force, of course the car doesn't go sideways.

Oversteer and understeer only occur when going around corners, so I think it can safely be assumed that there's some steering involved if we're talking about them. Steer lift off oversteer is just redundant, because there's no such thing as non-steer lift off oversteer.

 

[JDMKING13]

Class is in session!!

 

[z06fun]

I find it also infuriating, good to know I'm not the only one. Remember when I first tried out the next-gen Forza physics in 2013 before FM5 released and couldn't believe how bad handling was. Gave benefit of doubt and got retail game but still terrible and same goes for FM6. Shame really as game has a lot of cars but all feel 🤬 to drive, hopefully FM7 is a big improvement. Played briefly FM6 Apex yesterday with G27, first time on my updated PC. Close to 15 minute session at Brands Hatch Indy testing out handling with a V12 Vantage S, video below. Did couple of laps at end just to confirm what I know about handling model limits.



Is it normal to have so much oversteer just turning into corners at a slow pace? I always find the cars have a lot of grip where I don't expect it and very little when I do, I just expect opposite of reality in this game. Also correcting for oversteer doesn't feel realistic or enjoyable, FFB is also vague. I just noticed tip they give, "To correct oversteer, turn into the direction of the slide and gently apply your brakes." Is that what racing drivers do, didn't know that was the way to do it? Learn something new every day...

Any chance you could make a similar kind of GT Sport video and see how a similar car handles on that track? Do you experience massive oversteer just by turning into a corner? So far GTS looks to behind the likes of rFactor 2 and Assetto Corsa but a decent step in the right direction compared to GT6 from videos I've seen so far.

I don't want to create more anger for the Forza fans, but your video reminded me of another issue I found in Forza6, many of the RWD street cars have way too much front grip in stock trim. This makes them not so useful until you tune out that balance issue. Looks like you found another car with too much front grip.
In GTS, so far many cars I have tried have the opposite issue, too much rear grip with the default tuning (at least in arcade mode). The mid engine cars feel generally well balanced at the default settings though. I think you will find all of the cars give a much better driving experience compared to the one in your video.

Has anyone with beta tried taking a car from arcade mode to sport time trial mode and comparing the feel and balance? Seems like there noticable differences. @praiano63 I know you've being doing some extensive testing, have you tried comparing arcade vs Sport time trial?

 

[ImaRobot]

I don't want to create more anger for the Forza fans, but your video reminded me of another issue I found in Forza6, many of the RWD street cars have way too much front grip in stock trim. This makes them not so useful until you tune out that balance issue. Looks like you found another car with too much front grip.

I've noticed issues with stock cars as well. Some stock tunes for cars have some wonky set-ups sometimes, and most of the time I had horrible understeer. As for his video, if you make little effort to take some counter-steering measures at the correct time, then the car will continue oversteering. I know for a fact that @Saidur_Ali can keep the car in check if he wanted to. I'd be willing to try it out once I get home to see if I can produce the same effect.

One thing I'd like to note is that Forza's "Simulation steering" just doesn't seem to realistic to be honest. It results in inputs that are way to sporadic at times, I've never been too content with it. It will only accentuate that issue. Once you get used to it, it does help out, but I've never really felt it was realistic.

 

[OdeFinn]

Not if you're understeering beforehand. Then you're simply going from understeer to neutral.

LOL, if that's neutral then it's impossible to drive that car in any speeds with throttle applied, coz even on slow slow rolling speed with throttle or without (lifted gently off) it's not turning that much what you now say "neutral".

Oversteer is when the rear of the car is slipping sideways more than the front. It makes the car rotate and the car will spin unless you deal with that somehow, like countersteering.

See how easy it is to explain when you don't try and sound smart by making up words like grip factor and slip factor?

Oversteer isn't thing what can happen only on rear. It can be on either end, and it doesn't need full traction loss to be "oversteer".
Same goes to understeer..
Normal driving physics of tire contact pads are only different amounts of slip factor and grip (friction), if you don't know that don't blame me for pointing it out to you.

What you have in that video is a car understeering because it has too much throttle applied for the amount of lock, and then a car turning well below the threshold of grip at all four corners. That's all. I don't see how you can see anything else in that, especially not anything like what was in the video I posted. There is nothing remotely resembling the above description of oversteer.

On my "skid pad" video car isn't understeering, I'm searching maximum speed where car is on limit of understeer/traction loss, exactly as your video is asking to do.
Maybe you just need to take wheel on your hands because you seem to feel my hands better than I.

Listen what Skip Bsrber says on your video 18:22 - 18:38

Yeah...no. I suggest you look up what "oversteer" and "understeer" actually mean, because it's clear you're not using them to mean the same things as the rest of us.

If you call dog as car then it's not my fault.

 

[ImaRobot]

LOL, if that's neutral then it's impossible to drive that car in any speeds with throttle applied, coz even on slow slow rolling speed with throttle or without (lifted gently off) it's not turning that much what you now say "neutral".

If it's not turning that much on throttle, than that is understeer. If I'm misunderstanding what you're writing, I'm sorry, it might be the language barrier.

Oversteer isn't thing what can happen only on rear. It can be on either end, and it doesn't need full traction loss to be "oversteer".
Same goes to understeer..
Normal driving physics of tire contact pads are only different amounts of slip factor and grip (friction), if you don't know that don't blame me for pointing it out to you.

You're not understeering if you're rear is swapping ends with the front. The whole car is understeering/oversteering, but they made the different terms to tell you what area of the car is being effected and why its reacting that way.

Oversteer is the result of the rear end losing grip and coming lose before the front.
Understeer is the result of the front tires losing grip, restricting your ability to turn in.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

 

[OdeFinn]

Oversteer is the result of the rear end losing grip and coming lose before the front.
Understeer is the result of the front tires losing grip, restricting your ability to turn in.

Okey, gotta remember this..

 

[SDSPOWER01]

Maybe we ought to clarify what oversteer/understeer means.

I am not much of a sim type of guy (just interested in car and their mechanism) so I cannot argue with the videos shown of GT6 "lift off oversteer". But judging by my own eyes I can see that lift off oversteer is NOT fully implemented or accurately represented in the game. (Hence to the description of oversteer that the tail of the car swings). And by my logic you implement the lift off (the accelerator) that can cause the back weight of the car to transfer on the front causing the rear to lose traction. (Oversteer). And that is why I come to comprehend they are telling you since it is a bit difficult to notice in the shown videos (it might be partially there as you say but not accurately represented).

 

[GordonS]

Maybe we ought to clarify what oversteer/understeer means.

I am not much of a sim type of guy (just interested in car and their mechanism) so I cannot argue with the videos shown of GT6 "lift off oversteer". But judging by my own eyes I can see that lift off oversteer is NOT fully implemented or accurately represented in the game. (Hence to the description of oversteer that the tail of the car swings). And by my logic you implement the lift off (the accelerator) that can cause the back weight of the car to transfer on the front causing the rear to lose traction. (Oversteer). And that is why I come to comprehend they are telling you since it is a bit difficult to notice in the shown videos (it might be partially there as you say but not accurately represented).

In page 2 Ode's 'CS video' the off throttle oversteer is more apparent.

 

[praiano63]

I don't want to create more anger for the Forza fans, but your video reminded me of another issue I found in Forza6, many of the RWD street cars have way too much front grip in stock trim. This makes them not so useful until you tune out that balance issue. Looks like you found another car with too much front grip.
In GTS, so far many cars I have tried have the opposite issue, too much rear grip with the default tuning (at least in arcade mode). The mid engine cars feel generally well balanced at the default settings though. I think you will find all of the cars give a much better driving experience compared to the one in your video.

Has anyone with beta tried taking a car from arcade mode to sport time trial mode and comparing the feel and balance? Seems like there noticable differences. @praiano63 I know you've being doing some extensive testing, have you tried comparing arcade vs Sport time trial?

Car are reacting exctly the same in sport or arcade mode in my opinion. This of course with the BOP on.

 

[coryclifford]

Long time ago I heard, if the front quarter panel or fender of the car hits the wall first, it's understeer. If the back quarter panel hits the wall first it's oversteer.

Simply, which end of the car loses grip first.

Lift off oversteer is a specific trait. Car goes from steady state cornering, lift off the throttle and the rear end loses grip and slides. It's just that simple.

(I ran 9.5" wide tires in front and 8" wide in the rear of my Civic autocrosser to make that happen.)

 

[hankolerd]

In GTS, so far many cars I have tried have the opposite issue, too much rear grip with the default tuning

I've noticed issues with stock cars as well. Some stock tunes for cars have some wonky set-ups sometimes, and most of the time I had horrible understeer.

I believe this is mostly due to the Rear Toe defaulting to 0.50" toe-in for all cars, adding a lot of rear stability. I almost always turn this to 0.0" for FF/FR/AWD cars and 0.1"-0.2" toe-in for MR, and then tune from there. Front toe I tend to leave at ~0.2" toe-out. I based these toe settings on my real life background of racing an e36 BMW, and for the most part the settings translate over well, reducing understeer and helps the car feel neutral at the limit.

 

[z06fun]

The problem with bringing the rear toe close to zero in the RWD cars is it seems to reduce the ability to put power down without breaking the rear loose. It definitely helps them turn under lift though. Trade offs..

 

[JDMKING13]

The problem with bringing the rear toe close to zero in the RWD cars is it seems to reduce the ability to put power down without breaking the rear loose. It definitely helps them turn under lift though. Trade offs..

But I mean when I look at real car alignment sheets they are no where what you see on GTS or GT6... They actually mimic what you see in PCars and AC very low .07 .01 .06. In GTS they are at like .65 I switched all the cars toe settings and I can tell you the cars become a lot more lively. I have to play more but I Still feel Pcars and AC bite you more when you have bad driving technique.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

The problem with bringing the rear toe close to zero in the RWD cars is it seems to reduce the ability to put power down without breaking the rear loose. It definitely helps them turn under lift though. Trade offs..

That is because it is band-aid to compensate for the tyre model that has disproportionate grip levels for longitudinal and lateral vectors. Tyres that will produce 1.5g laterally in a stock Civic, but then do John Force burnouts from a 70mph roll with 175hp in the same Civic with the wheels straight.

 

[PzR Slim]

Some of the guff being written in here is astonishing! Educate yourselves.

http://www.drivingfast.net/oversteer/

 

[Wolfe]

The technical definition of oversteer is when there's a greater slip angle at the rear than at the front, not necessarily meaning that any tires have lost traction. But realistic lift-off oversteer must include the ability to truly lose traction and kick the tail out when appropriate, so "technical oversteer" isn't enough by itself to demonstrate that GT's physics have got it right. The more common usage of "oversteer" is adequate for this context.

 

[hankolerd]

The problem with bringing the rear toe close to zero in the RWD cars is it seems to reduce the ability to put power down without breaking the rear loose. It definitely helps them turn under lift though. Trade offs..

Yep - I agree. For most RWD cars I adjust between 0.0"-0.2" toe-in. And it seems the longer the wheelbase the lower it can be. The Corvette (106.7") is pretty manageable near 0" toe-in. The Ferrari 458 (104.3") needs ~0.15" toe-in . Rear toe is part of how manufacturers create built-in understeer to make cars "safe" for the masses. Most RWD BMW's run ~0.2" toe-in from the factory. I honestly don't know why GT Sport chooses to default it to 0.5". I guess as a built-in "aid" for inexperienced players to keep from spinning as easily?? Who knows.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yep - I agree. For most RWD cars I adjust between 0.0"-0.2" toe-in. And it seems the longer the wheelbase the lower it can be. The Corvette (106.7") is pretty manageable near 0" toe-in. The Ferrari 458 (104.3") needs ~0.15" toe-in . Rear toe is part of how manufacturers create built-in understeer to make cars "safe" for the masses. Most RWD BMW's run ~0.2" toe-in from the factory. I honestly don't know why GT Sport chooses to default it to 0.5". I guess as a built-in "aid" for inexperienced players to keep from spinning as easily?? Who knows.

IIRC the high default rear toe came via a game update after release. GT6 I think but could be GT5. As usual without any explanation or release notes so it's baffling as to why they thought it was necessary.

 

[EDK]

IIRC the high default rear toe came via a game update after release. GT6 I think but could be GT5. As usual without any explanation or release notes so it's baffling as to why they thought it was necessary.

GT6, and with that update it went really wacky. It was in June of the release year, same time as Red Bull Ring.

They went default front +0.50, rear +1.00 on race cars. And default rear +0.60 on road cars.

 

[praiano63]

IIRC the high default rear toe came via a game update after release. GT6 I think but could be GT5. As usual without any explanation or release notes so it's baffling as to why they thought it was necessary.

Hello Johnny, good to read you again. For me they did not build the physics from scratch. It´s very similar to GT6 ,only tire physics that are a lot better and perhaps a new equation to resolve the RH problem. Who know... just a feeling. For sure the direction inputs benefit a lot from the new tire physics model. Great precision and reaction even with a big wheel angle sometimes. It didn´t happen in GT6.

 

[JDMKING13]

Hello Johnny, good to read you again. For me they did not build the physics from scratch. It´s very similar to GT6 ,only tire physics that are a lot better and perhaps a new equation to resolve the RH problem. Who know... just a feeling. For sure the direction inputs benefit a lot from the new tire physics model. Great precision and reaction even with a big wheel angle sometimes. It didn´t happen in GT6.

I agree with you also, The braking is a lot better with ABS, In GT6 I always had to run with ABS off to get the suspension to come alive. This is not the case in GTS I have had the rear break out on me pleanty times for not braking in a straight line. Entry oversteer is also present now, I will say the cars feel a lot better execpt the FF cars I still feel they are a little to planted to the ground compared to Pcars and AC.

 

[praiano63]

I agree with you also, The braking is a lot better with ABS, In GT6 I always had to run with ABS off to get the suspension to come alive. This is not the case in GTS I have had the rear break out on me pleanty times for not braking in a straight line. Entry oversteer is also present now, I will say the cars feel a lot better execpt the FF cars I still feel they are a little to planted to the ground compared to Pcars and AC.

I´ve experienced this afternoon that ABS work better than ABS MILD under braking in a low speed headpin corner , driving the sirocco Gr 4 brakes setted full rear. Brands Hatch turn 2, ABS MILD induce a big understeer but normal ABS at least , if do not induce oversteer , let the car on the line. For oversteer put the rear ext tire on the grass

 

[coryclifford]

Some of the guff being written in here is astonishing! Educate yourselves.

http://www.drivingfast.net/oversteer/

Makes me wonder if some people actually know what they're arguing about...

Lift off oversteer car right there. Made to drive that way. It's on three wheels there, intentionally, to cause that. Maybe it's hard to tell, but the rear end is swinging out. Notice the proper line beforehand. Only way to get this car around a corner like this is much lift off oversteer. Very rarely does a FWD car do that from the factory, and those last videos posted are certainly not showing that. Again, fat front tires, skinny rear tires.

 

[ImaRobot]

Makes me wonder if some people actually know what they're arguing about...

View attachment 639522

Lift off oversteer car right there. Made to drive that way. It's on three wheels there, intentionally, to cause that. Maybe it's hard to tell, but that rear end is swinging out. Notice the proper line beforehand. Only way to get this car around that corner like this is much lift off oversteer. Very rarely does a FWD car do that from the factory, and those last videos posted are certainly not showing that. Again, fat front tires, skinny rear tires.

Im just amazed you got 9.5's under the front with what looks like no work to the fenders lol!

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hello Johnny, good to read you again. For me they did not build the physics from scratch. It´s very similar to GT6 ,only tire physics that are a lot better and perhaps a new equation to resolve the RH problem. Who know... just a feeling. For sure the direction inputs benefit a lot from the new tire physics model. Great precision and reaction even with a big wheel angle sometimes. It didn´t happen in GT6.

Good to see you back and get your thoughts on the beta. Have you been able to try the clutch/shifter with any cars?

 

[coryclifford]

Im just amazed you got 9.5's under the front with what looks like no work to the fenders lol!

Ride height matters. Spring rates, too. That turn was pegged in second gear so about 63 mph. Car was no joke if you had the guts. 7 time regional champ.

I know all about lift off oversteer.

 

[ImaRobot]

Ride height matters. Spring rates, too. That turn was pegged in second gear so about 63 mph. Car was no joke if you had the guts. 7 time regional champ.

I know all about lift off oversteer.

Well I wasnt remarking because of ride height, I just didn't know it was possible to fit them without poking out massively past the fenders. I always figured 8-8.5 would be pushing it. Nice to know though 👍

 

[coryclifford]

They stick out a bit. Rub the insides a bit at full lock, but not the control arms, so all good.

Little off topic now, eh? But still, lift oversteer... heheh.