GT Sport beta physics discussion - Read the First Post Before Replying

[danardif1]

And guys who build FF road cars and race them set them up so the rear does almost nothing at all. They weld the diff and when they exit low speed turns, the outside rear wheel comes completely off the ground 2-4 inches.

It's not far off what touring car teams do with their FF cars. Look at the formation lap for a BTCC race (as it is more exaggerated then when they are warming the tyres) and the front wheel drive cars have very supple suspension setups for the front of the car but care much less about the rear other than a basic setup. Wheels lift off the floor very easily and there is lots of roll in the front. It looks almost counter-intuitive as to what you expect a racing car to behave like...

 

[super_gt]

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

Can we stop arguing over what constitutes oversteer now? This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Can we stop arguing over what constitutes oversteer now? This is getting ridiculous.

No.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

What about lift-throttle murdersteer? I see none of that anywhere. SAD!

 

[SDSPOWER01]

Can we stop arguing over what constitutes oversteer now? This is getting ridiculous.

Its a discussion thread man chillax xD

 

[queleuleu]

I'm curious to know how they manage the PS4 computing power. How much for graphics and physics : 30/70, 50/50, etc... (no technical talks about CPU or GPU computing)
Not infinite and choices have to be made. The game must be beautiful and realistic enough for casual players.

 

[EDK]

Can we stop arguing over what constitutes oversteer now? This is getting ridiculous.

Umm, I'm pretty sure I already took care of that point.

Can we please just stop with this "The book definition of oversteer is X" stuff, and have a productive conversation?

It's ludicrous to me that we are actually debating which car behavior can be characterized as oversteer.

I've been sim racing here for nearly 10 years, and track racing for more than 5 years, with 100+ hours and over 20 race events under my belt.

I have never, ever, ever heard someone say, "The front just suddenly snapped in on me, I'm not sure what happened".

Do you know why? Because that's not how it works. Oversteer is throttle induced. It can be induced/caused by too much throttle too early, OR by lifting off the throttle while the wheel is turned. That's not to say it WILL be induced in either of those scenarios. But in both cases, it happens because the REAR LOSES GRIP, relative to the front.

So please just stop posting links to Wikipedia and the dictionary to argue fictional points with respect to what oversteer actually is.

From a racing standpoint, we know what it is. And to debate that it means the "front is turning too much" is a silly argument bound to lead to unproductive discussions.


IMO, the best way to show lift off oversteer in an FF on GT is to stagger the compounds, grippier in the front than the rear. Want FF lift off oversteer? Try SS front, SH rear. 👍

 

[ImaRobot]

I'm curious to know how they manage the PS4 computing power. How much for graphics and physics : 30/70, 50/50, etc... (no technical talks about CPU or GPU computing)
Not infinite and choices have to be made. The game must be beautiful and realistic enough for casual players.

If we would have to take a wild guess, as that's all it seems we'll be able to do, I would say 30/70 leaning towards graphics. They don't seem to have a serious focus like something like Pcars or AC, concerning the physics, but that's not to say it's outright bad. They have a tendency to lean towards beauty.

Umm, I'm pretty sure I already took care of that point.

It's just an odd thing to say all together. If you wanted to shift the discussion, at least bring something else to talk about rather than just complaining about the current discussion.

 

[Tornado]

Can we stop arguing over what constitutes oversteer now? This is getting ridiculous.

Great idea. Let's talk about what constitutes understeer instead.

 

[EDK]

Its a discussion thread man chillax xD

Right, a discussion about how the cars behave on GT Sport. NOT a conversation about the basis for what constitutes oversteer, understeer, or the meaning of life.

Would you come in here and start arguing about what is, is?

It becomes a little bit silly and pedantic, and already set the thread into a bit of a tailspin once yesterday.

So enough is enough. Let's talk about how the cars behave, rather than fighting about what constitutes a specific behavior.

It's just an odd thing to say all together. If you wanted to shift the discussion, at least bring something else to talk about rather than just complaining about the current discussion.

An odd thing for me to say? Or an odd thing for him to say?

Great idea. Let's talk about what constitutes understeer instead.

No, let's not.

 

[ImaRobot]

An odd thing for me to say? Or an odd thing for him to say?

I actually meant to write "He" instead of "You." My mistake.

 

[EDK]

I actually mean to write "He" instead of "You." My mistake.

No, it's fine. I just wanted to make sure I knew what you meant.

 

[Bigbazz]

Damn, 4 pages arguing semantics on oversteer. I used to own a Focus ST, car was scary at high speeds because the rear end was really lively and I never felt safe/confident driving it hard. That dramatic lift off oversteer in the video at Nordschleife a few pages back doesn't surprise me in the slightest, especially with the downhill causing quite dramatic weight transfer, you need to already balance the car on approach before entering the decline or it will like in the video, it's really easy to get caught out though.

The real cars behave nothing like the ST/RS models in GT5/6 though which were incredibly stable by comparison, they are by no means remotely close to driving an actual Focus from my experience of owning an ST (and driving it until I blew the engine at 150k miles.).

Came here for insight on GT sport though, how have things moved on? I assume a smaller car list means they can focus on quality over quantity, because GT5/6 suffered heavily in that regard.

 

[EDK]

Damn, 4 pages arguing semantics on oversteer. I used to own a Focus ST, car was scary at high speeds because the rear end was really lively and I never felt safe/confident driving it hard. That dramatic lift off oversteer in the video at Nordschleife a few pages back doesn't surprise me in the slightest, especially with the downhill causing quite dramatic weight transfer, you need to already balance the car on approach before entering the decline or it will like in the video, it's really easy to get caught out though.

The real cars behave nothing like the ST/RS models in GT5/6 though which were incredibly stable by comparison, they are by no means remotely close to driving an actual Focus from my experience of owning an ST (and driving it until I blew the engine at 150k miles.).

Came here for insight on GT sport though, how have things moved on? I assume a smaller car list means they can focus on quality over quantity, because GT5/6 suffered heavily in that regard.

So far, I would day that GT Sport is better in this respect, but not necessarily real.

My perception on GT6 is that the actual behavior relates to the weight distribution. I bring that up, because FF cars along with AWD to some extent understeer much more than they should. But conversely, a mid engine or rear engine car generally oversteers much more than it should. I have 80 race hours or so in a first generation MR2, and if it had the crazy snap oversteer IRL that it has on GT6, I would already be dead.

If you do a weight reduction and add ballast back to re-balance the car, you can get a characteristic that's much closer to real life. That, or stagger the tires.

 

[JDMKING13]

Damn, 4 pages arguing semantics on oversteer. I used to own a Focus ST, car was scary at high speeds because the rear end was really lively and I never felt safe/confident driving it hard. That dramatic lift off oversteer in the video at Nordschleife a few pages back doesn't surprise me in the slightest, especially with the downhill causing quite dramatic weight transfer, you need to already balance the car on approach before entering the decline or it will like in the video, it's really easy to get caught out though.

The real cars behave nothing like the ST/RS models in GT5/6 though which were incredibly stable by comparison, they are by no means remotely close to driving an actual Focus from my experience of owning an ST (and driving it until I blew the engine at 150k miles.).

Came here for insight on GT sport though, how have things moved on? I assume a smaller car list means they can focus on quality over quantity, because GT5/6 suffered heavily in that regard.

Did you drive with your electric aids off if you don't mind me asking?

 

[SDSPOWER01]

So enough is enough. Let's talk about how the cars behave, rather than fighting about what constitutes a specific behavior.

If you want to talk on how cars behave without knowing what constitutes of that behavior, then theres no point into a discussion.

Simply put if you want to compare how the cars behave in game X to game Y, you will need to know what the behavior consist off. Otherwise people can say whatever they want without stating facts.

And using GT6 as a reference because many people comes to the conclusion that the physics is improved but not by a huge difference. Therefor the discussion has started in the absence of "lift off oversteer"
If person A claims that there is lift off oversteer, person B simply asks for a prove or demonstration (ofcourse with all the facts of what it is to prove it right or wrong). That is pretty much the discussion in here nothing more or less.

 

[EDK]

If you want to talk on how cars behave without knowing what constitutes of that behavior, then theres no point into a discussion.

Simply put if you want to compare how the cars behave in game X to game Y, you will need to know what the behavior consist off. Otherwise people can say whatever they want without stating facts.

And using GT6 as a reference because many people comes to the conclusion that the physics is improved but not by a huge difference. Therefor the discussion has started in the absence of "lift off oversteer"
If person A claims that there is lift off oversteer, person B simply asks for a prove or demonstration (ofcourse with all the facts of what it is to prove it right or wrong). That is pretty much the discussion in here nothing more or less.

No, that's not true. People have been trying to argue the finer points of what oversteer or understeer are, and have been posting mis-information.

In simple terms, understeer IS loss of grip in the front, car continues in a straight line vs. following the driver's intended path.

Oversteer IS loss of grip in the rear of the car, car over rotates and the rear of the car tries to overtake the front. If not corrected, this will normally result in a spin.

In racing terms (which is what we are talking about here) those are the basic definitions of both traits.

But we had people in here trying to argue that they are not, and pointing out engineering and dictionary definitions, which are not productive to the conversation at hand.

I'm asking that we focus the conversation away from those definitions and toward the traits. If you need to brush up on what they are, this seemed to be a pretty good place to look.

Some of the guff being written in here is astonishing! Educate yourselves.

http://www.drivingfast.net/oversteer/

 

[Bigbazz]

Did you drive with your electric aids off if you don't mind me asking?

In game or in real life? In game I didn't use them as they made the cars slower and I'm very confident with my racing game driving abilities, aside from ABS-1 of course. In real life turning the ABS off was not an option, but turning off the TC was just a 1 button press when you started the car, I did turn it off now and then but to be honest the electronic aids in the ST weren't exactly sophisticated heavy handed stuff and the car wasn't powerful enough for you to really notice a difference unless you're hammering the car like a loon.

When you were up at around say 80-90 mph cornering even below the limit of grip the back end would be churping around like it wanted to go on holidays, so you had to be very careful not to react to that by coming off the throttle abruptly. Lets say you were to be going fast and straight and then you lift off with even a very slight steering angle you would feel dramatic lift off oversteer approaching and the car would feel very on edge, and if you're in the situation the guy in the Nordschleife video was in at that speed with that decline and a lift off at that moment the car is gonna spit you off.

I imagine the new RS 4WD models are infinitely better, those older cars (10y + so like the ST170, ST2, ST3 and previous generation RS models) had a lot of lift off oversteer though and lively rear ends, coupled with torque steer at the front wheels, though that was only really noticeable to me on slightly lower grip/uneven tarmac surfaces, ultimately the cars werent "that" powerful, 170-225bhp range, 210-220bhp for MK1 RS, 300bhp for MK2 RS.

 

[super_gt]

Here's something that caught my eye:




Is there someone who has the beta end wants to recreate this situation?

 

[JvM]

He had to counter the oversteer while on brakes for sure, before the crest.

Sidenote, what the actual 🤬 is that transmission whine in a road car???

 

[EDK]

When you were up at around say 80-90 mph cornering even below the limit of grip the back end would be churping around like it wanted to go on holidays,

You, sir, have a way with words. 👍

He had to counter the oversteer while on brakes for sure, before the crest.

Sidenote, what the actual 🤬 is that transmission whine in a road car???

Hey, I know you!

How's life, Jukka?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Sidenote, what the actual 🤬 is that transmission whine in a road car???

N300 cars can be equipped with full-race transmissions.

 

[JvM]

Hey, I know you!

How's life, Jukka?

Hey Kev!

It's aallright, and you?

 

[JDMKING13]

In game or in real life? In game I didn't use them as they made the cars slower and I'm very confident with my racing game driving abilities, aside from ABS-1 of course. In real life turning the ABS off was not an option, but turning off the TC was just a 1 button press when you started the car, I did turn it off now and then but to be honest the electronic aids in the ST weren't exactly sophisticated heavy handed stuff and the car wasn't powerful enough for you to really notice a difference unless you're hammering the car like a loon.

When you were up at around say 80-90 mph cornering even below the limit of grip the back end would be churping around like it wanted to go on holidays, so you had to be very careful not to react to that by coming off the throttle abruptly. Lets say you were to be going fast and straight and then you lift off with even a very slight steering angle you would feel dramatic lift off oversteer approaching and the car would feel very on edge, and if you're in the situation the guy in the Nordschleife video was in at that speed with that decline and a lift off at that moment the car is gonna spit you off.

I imagine the new RS 4WD models are infinitely better, those older cars (10y + so like the ST170, ST2, ST3 and previous generation RS models) had a lot of lift off oversteer though and lively rear ends, coupled with torque steer at the front wheels, though that was only really noticeable to me on slightly lower grip/uneven tarmac surfaces, ultimately the cars werent "that" powerful, 170-225bhp range, 210-220bhp for MK1 RS, 300bhp for MK2 RS.

Bro you have me cracking up with the holiday line. I wanted to know more on the lines of tcs and the stability control in real life thank you for the detailed description. 👍 @super_gt the Audi tts is a handful to control especially in its stock form. The rear end kicks out all the time and I have had situation just like that. The big difference is In GTS it's easy to catch the car.

 

[EDK]

Hey Kev!

It's aallright, and you?

Good, got the Beta and have my wheel working with GIMX.

I have to say that the physics feel much different from the baseline of GT6, and I like how the rumble strips and other track features are more carefully defined. It feels a lot like the public lobby Prologue days, but I'm hoping we can improve upon that.

Main thing for me is that braking distances seem much shorter and the required braking technique is much different. It seems like you need to be 100% brake a lot more of the time, partial braking has much less of an effect on the car now.

I've really only had my wheel working properly for about 20 minutes of running last night, was having some issues with brake pedal calibration before that. So I will update my impressions as I gain more experience.

Did I mention braking?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Damn, 4 pages arguing semantics on oversteer. I used to own a Focus ST, car was scary at high speeds because the rear end was really lively and I never felt safe/confident driving it hard. That dramatic lift off oversteer in the video at Nordschleife a few pages back doesn't surprise me in the slightest, especially with the downhill causing quite dramatic weight transfer, you need to already balance the car on approach before entering the decline or it will like in the video, it's really easy to get caught out though.

The real cars behave nothing like the ST/RS models in GT5/6 though which were incredibly stable by comparison, they are by no means remotely close to driving an actual Focus from my experience of owning an ST (and driving it until I blew the engine at 150k miles.).

Came here for insight on GT sport though, how have things moved on? I assume a smaller car list means they can focus on quality over quantity, because GT5/6 suffered heavily in that regard.

I only just remembered after all these pages that first car I experienced lift-off oversteer was in a Mk1.5 Ford Focus rally kind of car. It was a glorious feeling, below is GIF I posted on Jordan's 30th Birthday thread:



Learnt also to drive in a Mk2 Focus, my instructor once got me driving at 90...

 

[weedybroz]

the more i play the more i am thinking i am playing need for speed .

 

[Ameer67]

the more i play the more i am thinking i am playing need for speed .

Do the front wheels magically steer themselves without any input from the player in GTS too?

 

[mirial]

@EDK
Just and idea as to why more ride height with the type of cars I mentioned and working with zero camber in GT5/6; I think PD must have decided to just put A LOT of camber change into all the cars to simplify things otherwise you would have ended up with some nasty handling which would be difficult for many without experience to resolve. In reality you would set the car up with much more negative camber which would be easy to monitor with further adjustments.

Just wondering what PD have done this time around though.

How many setup saves are there BTW? Thanks.