GT Sport have over 5 million players

[Shingo_civic]

There sure is a whole lot of wannabe Mebe's who desperately want to discount FH3/4 and Driveclub sales because they appeared on Game Pass / released on PS Plus.

How many times does this argument need to be made before it's realized that it's bunk, or not as pronounced as people want to have it be? And more over, why does anybody care if FH3/4 or Driveclub being on subscription services?

No it's not to discount, it's just facing the reality

 

[Silver Arrows]

No it's not to discount, it's just facing the reality

Sure seems like discounting to me.

And moreover, again, how much of this really matters? Why does it matter that Driveclub was sold (a trial version, in essence, it should be immediately noted, considering the person I directly mentioned believed with all his heart that Driveclub was on PS Plus, full game for free) with PS Plus and the FH games from 3 onward are on Game Pass (Again, for a fee, not for free like some people have been disingenuously trying to get across up thread) to anybody but the developers or publishers? Because there's been a lot of people, both in this very thread, and in other areas, that have stomped their feet and had hissy fits about how it isn't fair. How much of this sales numbers posturing matters to the average player, other then as a somewhat fluffy checkup to the health of a game?

Maybe most importantly, why does it matter to a Gran Turismo player how good Forza Horizon does in terms of sales? These series aren't related in any way really then they are racing games, that involve cars. Considering that once more, the only reason the other series was brought up was to compliment both series in carrying the torch for racing games in the current age? No sort of foul play...yet here you are, making a burner account and trying to (seemingly) pick yet another Forza/GT pissing match, as if this forum hasn't had enough of those. They were silly in 2011, and they're even sillier in 2019 now with the entire playing field being changed.

So what is the reality? Why does this 'reality' matter in the grand scheme of things, especially with where the racing genre is currently?

 

[breeminator]

on Game Pass (Again, for a fee, not for free like some people have been disingenuously trying to get across up thread

It's free to people who were already subscribing to Game Pass, i.e. they don't have to pay anything on top of what they were already paying for a service they wanted for other reasons.

Now, some people will be paying for Game Pass specifically because they want to play the Horizon games that way. But there will also be some people who would buy the Game Pass service even if Horizon wasn't part of it, and those people are genuinely able to run the game up and be counted as a player without it costing them anything at all, it is truly absolutely free to those people. We have no way of knowing how the "millions" of people who have Game Pass are split between those groups. But when you have 3.65m people who have run the game up but haven't even done the very first jump that unlocks 40 mins into the game, it's clear that one way or another, there are people running the game up who aren't at all invested in truly playing it in any meaningful way.

 

[Silver Arrows]

But when you have 3.65m people who have run the game up but haven't even done the very first jump that unlocks 40 mins into the game, it's clear that one way or another, there are people running the game up who aren't at all invested in truly playing it in any meaningful way.

Why does that matter at all to anybody except the developers / publishers.

'truly playing it in any meaningful way' get outta here with that garbage. Some people play a game, realize they don't like it early, and they shelve it. No big deal. I played about an hour of Nier Automata before realizing it was the type of game I thought it was before I bought, nor was it good in my mind. A player is a player in that case, does that mean that me playing Nier Automata and shelving it the way that I did wasn't playing it meaningfully?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

it is truly absolutely free to those people.

But when you have 3.65m people who have run the game up but haven't even done the very first jump that unlocks 40 mins into the game, it's clear that one way or another, there are people running the game up who aren't at all invested in truly playing it in any meaningful way.

Which doesn't matter: there is no qualifier for what constitutes a player.

It's weird you're digging for this in a GT Sport thread, and yet there's no mention of how very nearly 40% of the people that have played GT Sport haven't even driven 100km. Total. A third haven't driven enough at any one 24h period to earn a Daily Marathon award, either.

This all has snowballed out of a dog-whistle response from someone bothered by another member crediting multiple franchises with doing well. Which is honestly a little depressing.

 

[Shingo_civic]

It's free to people who were already subscribing to Game Pass, i.e. they don't have to pay anything on top of what they were already paying for a service they wanted for other reasons.

Now, some people will be paying for Game Pass specifically because they want to play the Horizon games that way. But there will also be some people who would buy the Game Pass service even if Horizon wasn't part of it, and those people are genuinely able to run the game up and be counted as a player without it costing them anything at all, it is truly absolutely free to those people. We have no way of knowing how the "millions" of people who have Game Pass are split between those groups. But when you have 3.65m people who have run the game up but haven't even done the very first jump that unlocks 40 mins into the game, it's clear that one way or another, there are people running the game up who aren't at all invested in truly playing it in any meaningful way.

Exactly that's what i was trying to point when Imari bringed in fh into the discource,which wasn't absolutely an attack to fh but only an attempt to clarify that sales numbers of game which isn't related to any online service is completely a diferent thing to the numbers of player accounts of a game that is included in this kind of online services like the gamepass, so completely not comparable but i see some people het hurted and i don't understand why

Which doesn't matter: there is no qualifier for what constitutes a player.

It's weird you're digging for this in a GT Sport thread, and yet there's no mention of how very nearly 40% of the people that have played GT Sport haven't even driven 100km. Total. A third haven't driven enough at any one 24h period to earn a Daily Marathon award, either.

Yes but those 40% of people that haven't even driven the game at least were obligated to buy the game,in order to play fh you can create a microsoft account, pay 1$ for the game pass (so basically free) and download the game or even download the free demo and you are counted as a new player, so thats why in my opinion is completely pointless ti bring into the discussion fh, just two different situation between the two games

 

[breeminator]

It's weird you're digging for this in a GT Sport thread, and yet there's no mention of how very nearly 40% of the people that have played GT Sport haven't even driven 100km. Total. A third haven't driven enough at any one 24h period to earn a Daily Marathon award, either.

I've played FH4 quite a lot, so am familiar with the way the game is intended to "game" numerous metrics like this, and I find it annoying when a company prioritises generating those metrics over making a game enjoyable to play (which is why I've largely stopped playing it and am playing GTS instead). I don't have equivalent familiarity with GT Sport, so wasn't aware of the statistic you quoted. Is there any obvious reason for it, e.g. has it been made available for no marginal cost on a subscription service? It seems odd that so many people wouldn't drive 100km if they've bought the game.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yes but those 40% of people that haven't even driven the game at least were obligated to buy the game

Who cares?

A player is a player, and more people playing racing games is a good thing for the genre. Someone that bought a game but doesn't actually play it is of no functional difference to me, as another player, than someone that's accessing it by way of a paid monthly subscription and not playing. Both result in... yep, you guessed it, a smaller regular player base. Sales figures matter to stock holders and developers — the only reason they really matter to players is determining if the dev will still get to make games.

Nobody in this thread was misconstruing player counts with sales, either, so it's not like anybody needed to be "corrected". Again, this snowballed because a particular member has a dog-whistle response to the briefest mention of Forza.

in order to play fh you can create a microsoft account, pay 1$ for the game pass (so basically free) and download the game or even download the free demo and you are counted as a new player

I've looked extensively for any sort of evidence that demo players are rolled into these figures and have found zero. Could you provide some? IIRC GTS' beta players are only sometimes included in official counts, so maybe that's why people assume the same of other games' pre-release versions?

Also, please don't double-post, and do try to use your shift and punctuation keys. 👍

I've played FH4 quite a lot, so am familiar with the way the game is intended to "game" numerous metrics like this, and I find it annoying when a company prioritises generating those metrics over making a game enjoyable to play (which is why I've largely stopped playing it and am playing GTS instead). I don't have equivalent familiarity with GT Sport, so wasn't aware of the statistic you quoted. Is there any obvious reason for it, e.g. has it been made available for no marginal cost on a subscription service? It seems odd that so many people wouldn't drive 100km if they've bought the game.

What? There's no difference between an event that's unlocked in Game A after 40 minutes of play time and simply hitting a set amount of mileage in Game B in terms of "gaming" the metrics. It's just a very basic measure of progress. The GT Sport stats are both from trophy info, the same ones that show two thirds of players don't even touch Sport Mode — which I still find disappointing, because the hop-in-and-race aspect is what keeps the game interesting to me. But hey, horses for courses and all that.

 

[PzR Slim]

I just did a quick reality check on FH4 player numbers. I looked at this walkthrough from the start of the game:



The first PR stunt is unlocked at the 40 minute mark. Surely everyone who has actually bought the game would at least get as far as doing that jump? The number of people who have done that jump is 6.35m, i.e. that is the number of entries on the leaderboard. And that will still include many people playing it via Game Pass, the number of subscribers to which has been described as "millions", and will still include multiple accounts. So of the 10m "players", 1/3rd of them haven't even completed that first jump that is unlocked 40 minutes into the game.

I'm sure you will use the same stick to beat GTS with then as 80% of players haven't done a single Sport mode race and 34% of players have got 0% campaign progress. You can find all kinds of interesting stats here https://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=sport_play_ratio

But instead of everyone waving around their e-penises to try and show how their dad is bigger than the next persons dad why can't we all just agree that it's never been a better time to be a racing gamer and there are so many fantastic games out there for us to play.

 

[sems4arsenal]

I predicted 7-8 million baseline LTD sales when GTSport was releasing and a lot of people laughed at the notion. They'd be wise to remaster this for the PS5.

 

[ShakesMcQueen]

Yeah but forza horizon 4 hasn't sold more than GTS, number of player accounts are different than the real number of sales (when we have the sales of fh4 than we can compare them)

We don't have sales numbers for FH4, because Microsoft doesn't release them. Microsoft doesn't release them, because they are utterly meaningless in a world where they also sell a subscription service that includes the game, and that game's presence on the service is explicitly to drive subscriptions.

But please, do continue. This conversation has been amazing to read.

 

[rhalgr]

6 millions? GT Sport sold 8 million copies, that is an official document from Sony and Yoshida has confirmed that number

This is not an official document, unless Sony talks in third person about themselves. However, Yoshida seems to have confirmed the GTS part.

 

[UltimateYosh]

Why am I not surprised that the GT Fanboys would come out swinging as soon as someone dared to say the F word in their precious GT Sport sub-forum.

He didn't even say anything remotely negative about GT Sport!

I guess even just mentioning the other franchise in a positive light means the Pitchforks have to come out.

 

[rhalgr]

Don't get mad pls, i was not trying to attack fh lol... why are you talking about players when the above data refers to the copies sold not to the number of players, they are two completely different things (for example also driveclub had 10 million players but in reality as sold copies it was about 2 million, which suggests that the numbers of players they are not indicative if a brand is healthy or not, so that's why i wanted to specify)

Driveclub is a bad example, because unlike Gamepass PS Plus has the advantage of being pretty much a mandatory, if you want to play online and has millions more subs because of it.

Not bad if only FIFA 16 compare to other game on ps4.

the third party stats are from vgchartz and basically useless

 

[ImaRobot]

How someone took this:

Great numbers, really. Horizon 4 and GTS are really keeping the racing genre in the spotlight with both their respective consoles, even if they aren't that similar of games. Horizon 4 sitting at 10 million players, with GTS not too far behind I'd imagine.

As a reason to try to pick a fight about Forza for things that weren't even said is beyond me, but it's all a bit sad really. All because someone gets a massive rage-on anytime Forza is mentioned, even if it isn't even anything remotely being compared as such. We should be happy these two games are doing so well, because it'll only help us, the consumer, in the long run. Arguing about sales between the two is absolutely worthless, because it literally does absolutely nothing for us other than stroking your own ego as if it's justifying your purchase.

 

[ARTAsean]

How someone took this:



As a reason to try to pick a fight about Forza for things that weren't even said is beyond me, but it's all a bit sad really. All because someone gets a massive rage-on anytime Forza is mentioned, even if it isn't even anything remotely being compared as such. We should be happy these two games are doing so well, because it'll only help us, the consumer, in the long run. Arguing about sales between the two is absolutely worthless, because it literally does absolutely nothing for us other than stroking your own ego as if it's justifying your purchase.

If you want feedback as to why, I can assist. You said “both” their consoles, and then “10 million players”

Forza is available on both Xbox and PC, so it’s a double platform title, and that 10 million is split up between the 2.

I didn’t object to your post, but for this reason, it does sound like pro-Forza propaganda based on your lack of clarity.

 

[Silver Arrows]

If you want feedback as to why, I can assist. You said “both” their consoles, and then “10 million players”

Forza is available on both Xbox and PC, so it’s a double platform title, and that 10 million is split up between the 2.

I didn’t object to your post, but for this reason, it does sound like pro-Forza propaganda based on your lack of clarity.

Are you serious? 'pro-Forza propaganda' ?

What about praising both titles is 'propaganda' ? Yeah sure, he might have needed to do a better job clarifying it (I don't know why you'd would need to clarify praise for both titles) but 'propaganda' ?

Christ, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

[ImaRobot]

If you want feedback as to why, I can assist. You said “both” their consoles, and then “10 million players”

Forza is available on both Xbox and PC, so it’s a double platform title, and that 10 million is split up between the 2.

I didn’t object to your post, but for this reason, it does sound like pro-Forza propaganda based on your lack of clarity.

Right.

It didn't need clarity. I was congratulating both for doing so well, and I'm happy to know that there's a brighter future for racing games for both the arcade side of things, as well as the more sim oriented games.

If you want to argue that go for it, but that's just asinine. If you get propaganda from that, than the only reason I can understand how you got that is if you're the type of person itching to pick a fight any time a different racing game is mentioned. It's pathetic. Then, to go on arguing about thing's that weren't said at all is just as pathetic.

 

[breeminator]

What? There's no difference between an event that's unlocked in Game A after 40 minutes of play time and simply hitting a set amount of mileage in Game B in terms of "gaming" the metrics.

You misunderstood, that's not one of the mechanisms by which it games metrics. It's it being available on Game Pass from day 1 that is designed to game the metric of number of players. It's also designed to game the number of Xbox Live Gold subscribers, for example, by locking cars behind activities that can only be completed if you have Xbox Live Gold. And cars being locked behind activities that must be completed within a specific week is clearly designed to game the "days played" metric. GTS is not completely innocent in this regard, with the daily workout cars, but at least I was able to start playing GTS a long time after launch and have access to all the cars, it doesn't lock so much content behind time-limited activities (the mileage exchange cars are the only cars I'm aware of that are time-locked, and I haven't seen a sport mode race yet where they were OP). You could say that GTS also tries to game the number of Playstation Plus subscribers, but it differs in that you only need PS+ to race online with GTS, and if you don't do that, it doesn't prevent you from obtaining any single player content. In FH4, you cannot access all single player content unless you buy Xbox Live Gold (well, you could try to get those cars via the auction house, but good luck with that if you're on a console trying to compete against bots running on PCs).

 

[ImaRobot]

You misunderstood, that's not one of the mechanisms by which it games metrics. It's it being available on Game Pass from day 1 that is designed to game the metric of number of players. It's also designed to game the number of Xbox Live Gold subscribers, for example, by locking cars behind activities that can only be completed if you have Xbox Live Gold. And cars being locked behind activities that must be completed within a specific week is clearly designed to game the "days played" metric. GTS is not completely innocent in this regard, with the daily workout cars, but at least I was able to start playing GTS a long time after launch and have access to all the cars, it doesn't lock so much content behind time-limited activities (the mileage exchange cars are the only cars I'm aware of that are time-locked, and I haven't seen a sport mode race yet where they were OP). You could say that GTS also tries to game the number of Playstation Plus subscribers, but it differs in that you only need PS+ to race online with GTS, and if you don't do that, it doesn't prevent you from obtaining any single player content. In FH4, you cannot access all single player content unless you buy Xbox Live Gold (well, you could try to get those cars via the auction house, but good luck with that if you're on a console trying to compete against bots running on PCs).

Who cares, and why? What does any of this do for us?

 

[Silver Arrows]

Who cares, and why? What does any of this do for us?

About the only thing player numbers (which is what matters nowadays) gives is a somewhat fluffy and broad strokes look to the general health of a game, and there are better ways to judge that metric if you're a Joe Schmoe game player. It matters more to the company.

Like seriously...all this pearl clutching and these asinine arguments, and for what? What matters should be how a developer creates the game now that we're moving to service based games, and how they interact with the community. Both PD and T10/PG have things to laud and things to loathe in that regard.

 

[FoRiZon]

Even as a mild GT fan I kinda wont stoop this low when it come for "defending" the game.


Just accept the fact and move on. Sales doesn't affect my enjoyment and you should too.

 

[Outspacer]

About the only thing player numbers (which is what matters nowadays) gives is a somewhat fluffy and broad strokes look to the general health of a game, and there are better ways to judge that metric if you're a Joe Schmoe game player. It matters more to the company.

Yes, total player count is a terrible metric for anything other than getting the biggest possible number for PR purposes. Sales don't even matter to the company except for PR - revenue and profit does.

For the gamer, even active player counts don't really say much either because it depends on how the game uses those players. Driveclub 'felt' active right up to the end and beyond, because it was still common to find populated online races and challenges were still plentiful. GTS - at least in the dailies - 'felt' less active already a year ago because, even if it has more active players, the matchmaking needs a lot of players to function well and it's really obvious when it's struggling to find enough players.

 

[Silver Arrows]

For the gamer, even active player counts don't really say much either because it depends on how the game uses those players. Driveclub 'felt' active right up to the end and beyond, because it was still common to find populated online races and challenges were still plentiful. GTS - at least in the dailies - 'felt' less active already a year ago because, even if it has more active players, the matchmaking needs a lot of players to function well and it's really obvious when it's struggling to find enough players.

Exactly! There's so many variables in play that ultimately, player counts mean literally nothing except as a quick glance look at the health of the game, and even then, it shouldn't be taken as the be all, end all.

 

[rhalgr]

If you want feedback as to why, I can assist. You said “both” their consoles, and then “10 million players”

Forza is available on both Xbox and PC, so it’s a double platform title, and that 10 million is split up between the 2.

I didn’t object to your post, but for this reason, it does sound like pro-Forza propaganda based on your lack of clarity.

You forget to mentioned the plattform sales, the attach rate of the game, the release date, the average price (taking every price reduction into account), the advertisement budget, the console split in countries with the most racing enthusiasm to determine the success AND obviously the trophies % to determine which franchise got played more often...

I don't think this is needed in a post saying its good these two franchises doing so well for the racing genre as a whole.

 

[breeminator]

Who cares, and why?

If the company didn't report it as a metric, nobody would care, but if they report it as a metric, they have to expect people to call them out for gaming that metric.

 

[ImaRobot]

If the company didn't report it as a metric, nobody would care, but if they report it as a metric, they have to expect people to call them out for gaming that metric.

That doesn't answer anything as to why people are running in circles comparing things and accusing people of comparing things when no such thing has happened. That' doesn't answer the question as to why you're so persistent in pointing out something when no one was comparing it as such. I'm not asking what the companies think, or why they did it, I'm asking why you're going about it this way, and why does it matter when the conversation stemmed from congratulating two games on their massive popularity in a genre that's pretty niche?

Not only that, but everything you've said about how they count multiple accounts can be direcly associated to the game you're comparing it too as well. On top of that, no one was comparing it to GTS sales at all. As well as the fact that PD themselves use the very same metrics.

 

[Tornado]

Great numbers, really. Horizon 4 and GTS are really keeping the racing genre in the spotlight with both their respective consoles, even if they aren't that similar of games. Horizon 4 sitting at 10 million players, with GTS not too far behind I'd imagine.

HOW DARE YOU SAY FORZA IN THE SAME SENTENCE AS GLORIOUS MASTER RACE GRAN TURISMO.

 

[breeminator]

That' doesn't answer the question as to why you're so persistent in pointing out something when no one was comparing it as such.

My first post was to respond to this:
"the only petty thing is this attempt to belittle the GTS sales success by comparing it to the users number of FH4 (many of witch have downloaded the game for free thanks to xbox game pass 1€/$ subscription on console and PC)"
I posted to support the idea that it is unreasonable to compare GTS sales to FH4 player numbers. All my posts after that have arisen from people disagreeing with me, and me responding to them.

 

[ImaRobot]

My first post was to respond to this:
"the only petty thing is this attempt to belittle the GTS sales success by comparing it to the users number of FH4 (many of witch have downloaded the game for free thanks to xbox game pass 1€/$ subscription on console and PC)"
I posted to support the idea that it is unreasonable to compare GTS sales to FH4 player numbers. All my posts after that have arisen from people disagreeing with me, and me responding to them.

Yes, I'm aware of where your first post was. It changes nothing about the questions posed to you because nothing was being compared or belittled in the first place. @emula just can't comprehend that because he's too quick to try to jump down everyone's throat as soon as the word Forza gets mentions replying too quick before he even comprehends what's actually being talked about, so he made a misinformed post that led you down a misinformed path. So I suggest following the thread a little better if that's the case.