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tha_conthis statement is only funny because you are unrealistic about forza...
Anyway. TOCa is hardly on the level that GT4 is on. It features nearly HALF the polys on screen at any given time, and the AI is NOT as good as you proclaim it to be, it was good, but not anything to write home about. The damage was also decent, but not very demanding. To compare toca, a game that's physics are noticeably less intense than that of GT4to a full version of GT4, let alone the visuals, is not completely accurate. Toca has ROOM to use extra power, GT4 does not.
Also, the main thing you should look at is SALES. How many sales does TOCA have compared to GT3 even, it's quite different. Fact is, while TOCA may be a fun game, it includes nice models, and decent AI, along with average damage, it is not something PD could have done, simply for the fact that they would have been critisized for it.
Their franchise is heavily based on the fact that it is a great looking game. It's been that way since GT1. Everyone was impressed by the visuals in GT1 given the hardware, then by GT2 they were even more impressed.
GT3 had to be completely redone for the most part, which is in part why is seemed like it was half complete. Just think of what they had to do.
Remodel each car, recreate every texture. Implement the tuning system (although not in depth, it still had to be produced and researched). Not to mention all of this is on brand new hardware that is very complicated to use.
Give what they had and the time they had to complete the game, they did a decent job.
A lot of you fail to realize exactly how much power the GT4 engine saps. Just by looking at it each and every one of you should realize that it is extremely above average. Think of all that is has to process, then think how strong the PS2 ISN'T.
Car Models
Car Textures
Track Models
Track Textures
Real Time LIghting Effects
New Physics Engine (physics are always the most processor intense aspect)
Music
Car sounds (while not outstanding in anyway)
Particle Effects at any given time (tire smoke and dust)
AI (albeit only average)
AND Maintain a steady 60FPS
Now,just a few of those features eat up at the PS2's power, and the room needed for complex AI calculations is just not available, they knew this with GT3, and they know it with GT4. PS3 will present new options, however we'll not go into that, because it's still some time off.
Sure I'm writing a lot, but none of you seem to get the point, you only see the negative and want more.
This game is economicaly driven. PD is NOT a large company. PERIOD. They thrive on ONE series. They have NO OTHER GAMES. They made ONE other racer in the past.
IF they were to sacrifice their trademark image of outstanding looks in exchange for better AI, to say that of the quality of TOCA, then they would lose a TON of thier fanbase, because the MAJORITY of the people that buy games, INITIALLY buy them because of their looks. That is how the market is driven now. GT on PS was the best looking racer there was at the time, hands down, it was outstanding for it's hardware. Given that standard they COULD NOT be out shined. They had to maintain that standard, so you are presented with the option. Lose your visual title, and a lot of your fan base, and then eventually your very generous support from Sony, or continue to do what you do best...
It often seems as some of you would appreciate no more GT series games rather than wait for better things to come. Perfection is impossible, what you all want is NOT POSSIBLE on PS2. You can have one or the other, but on PS2 you WILL NOT GET a beautiful racing sim, it will either be lower quality visuals with good AI, decent physics, etc, or high quality visuals, above average physics, no damage average AI.
If you don't understand the trade off please do not reply, because there is no better way to explain this, if it doesn't hit you, then you must be thick headed or you are not reading my post. give it deep thought, not just assumptions.
like Kev said "be realistic"
some good and some bad points in there. Mostly good. 👍
I am comparing TOCA to GT3, not gt4, as I havent played GT4p or any other demo. And yes, it is a much more compelling and "intense" drive, at least on the road courses (the rallying and ice racing are awful.).
1. The A.I. is challenging, and actually merits the I in the designation. Plus, there are a lot of them on track at once. You actually feel like you are racing, and driving smartly offers rewards that GT's dip**** A.I. would ruin. Working your way through a pack of racecars bumper-to-bumper while trying not to screw up is exhilirating, as opposed to mashing the gas and late braking to completely trounce GT's Artificial Unintelligence.
2. The physics, while not as vast as GT's (because of the amount of settings and modifications), are more realistic IMO, because the weight transfer, elevation changes, tire traction and racing lines play a much bigger role. In GT3, the brake button cures all ailments, and despite a wide range of road vehicles, they seem to all handle like the same model with different parameters. Turning off assists only makes the tires ridiculously slippery, not more realistic. You can never accurately gauge when traction breaks off, you just have to react to the car's strange behaviour. To put it shortly: in GT3, you never really feel connected to the car, because beneath that veneer of flashy graphics and seeminly realistic physics, the cars don't behave as they should. It's hard to explain, so I won't be surprised if you're puzzled after reading this paragraph.
You have to realise that we are talking purely from a critical standpoint, not a business or marketing one. You always bring up sales and business, I am just stating what I think a good racing game SHOULD have included. Of course GT4 will sell tons of copies, that's beside the point.
In fact, if I were to rate the 2 games, GT3 would get a much higher score because of the "bang for your buck" factor. It offers many more cars and options, better graphics, and deep customization. Toca2, despite it's fantastic racing experience, just doesn't stack up. Graphics, unfortunately, really do make a big difference.
P.S. Your point about PD being a small team because they thrive on one game... baloney. Bungie is a first party developer that currently works on 1 title, and yet they strive to make the best game possible, to please their fans and critics. They are also a big company because of the MS ownership, and they have admitted it themselves that things are much easier with a huge global conglomerate backing them up and funding them (a la PD).
I was really looking forward to playing GT4 over christmas, might just get hold of a 'preview' copy before the PAL release 
