GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]

[194GVan]

I'd MUCH rather have less cars if it means damage and better customisation. TBH Gt4 probably wasn't that much of a task for them, all they had to do was get Gtc, polish it up abit, add some new physics, a few more cars and there ya go. Gt4. Shame really. GT4 is good, but the more I play it, the more I see it lacks any real sense of excitement .

I couldnt agree more. Although there was a list of updates for GT4 (graphics, physics, cars, tracks, b-spec, photomode, etc....) it is essentially the same game it ever was. 1 player racing (career mode), no online, but the most expansive list of races and cars to keep you busy for a long while. Thats the GT series. Thats what they do.

Damage, car customization, and solid online play, do I need to say more? Forza has finally convinced me to get on Xbox live. I just cant not be a part of it. (I have played GT4 only once since I got forza)

 

[Maven]

I hate this "driving experience" crap people are going on about, I don't buy a racing game for a sunday drive FFS, I buy em to go at stupid speeds.

Well then, it's a good thing that there's more than one game that you can play, right?

Reality 101
Lesson #1: Just because you prefer one game over another, does not make other game 'not good'.

Why don't all you fanboys just understand that GT4 and Forza focus on different things. It's alright to compare the differences, but just because there are differences doesn't mean one is inherently better or worse than the other.

 

[code_kev]

Maven, if I were a fanboy, I wouldn't actually OWN Gt4 (unless I bought it just so I had an excuse to slag it off, but with the current amount of cash I have, ie not much, I simply can't afford to buy games I don't actually want). They BOTH focus on racing, nothing more, nothing less. Granted, Gt4 seems to wanna give you more cars, but if Gt4 was a DRIVING sim only (and not a racing sim), then it should be on roads, with traffic lights, and sunday drivers ambling along (this is actually pretty true of the sad state the Gt4 AI is in). Driving and racing pretty much go hand in hand. Forza is as much a driving sim as GT4, and Gt4 is as much a racing sim as Forza, both are on tracks, with opponents, thus are racing. The end.

 

[flynn]

Well then, it's a good thing that there's more than one game that you can play, right?

Reality 101
Lesson #1: Just because you prefer one game over another, does not make other game 'not good'.

Why don't all you fanboys just understand that GT4 and Forza focus on different things. It's alright to compare the differences, but just because there are differences doesn't mean one is inherently better or worse than the other.

very well said.....and if I hear "gt killer" again I may just snap. Why would it even matter if its better than GT4? As long as its a good game on its own thats all that matters. Forza is a great game and we can leave it at that. seems like we have to go through this cycle every time a non burnout type racing game comes out. (remember those PGR2 vs GT3 battles? ) And yes I agree its fun to compare these games....but I think its more of a "attack who is number 1" fest. Same reason people complain about America, and the same reason people complain about M$.

I guess it makes people feel important to go against the status quo. But if you ask me its just wasted energy you could be using to play games.

 

[code_kev]

I didn't say Forza was more fun then GT4 because I'm "raging against the machine". I played, I compared, and prefered what Forza had to offer over what GT4 did overall, though that's not to say GT4 out does Forza in others. GT4 was allmost there, it really was, but limited by it's sedate feeling cars imo. If in the next one PD can make the cars feel bloody scary, then they would have got my vote. I need only compare my 800 bhp skyline in Forza, to the one in GT. The one in Gt4 while obscenly fast, is easy to drive, no matter how much I mash the gas, while in Forza I can hardly blink driving the bloody thing!

 

[flynn]

I didn't say Forza was more fun then GT4 because I'm "raging against the machine". I played, I compared, and prefered what Forza had to offer over what GT4 did overall, though that's not to say GT4 out does Forza in others. GT4 was allmost there, it really was, but limited by it's sedate feeling cars imo. If in the next one PD can make the cars feel bloody scary, then they would have got my vote. I need only compare my 800 bhp skyline in Forza, to the one in GT. The one in Gt4 while obscenly fast, is easy to drive, no matter how much I mash the gas, while in Forza I can hardly blink driving the bloody thing!

yeah I wasnt referrig to you on that....I kinda just rolled into that whilst I was on my soap box hehe.
And even though I wasnt talking about you, you know what I am talking about with the "#1" attackers.

 

[paddworth]

If you dont want to compare them get out this thread right now and let us fight each other over which is better. As a PS2 and GT4 lover I also agree with code so hes got both sides of the argument 👍

 

[flynn]

If you dont want to compare them get out this thread right know and let us fight each other over which is better. As a PS2 and GT4 lover I also agree with code so hes got both sides of the argument

not sure if this was for me or not....if it was, I say its great to compare certain aspects... I was just stating the whole "gt killer" thing is lame. And these games should be compared on their own merits is all. Hell I compared lots of aspects of these games in this very thread.

If you werent talking to me then please disregard

 

[paddworth]

not sure if this was for me or not....if it was, I say its great to compare certain aspects... I was just stating the whole "gt killer" thing is lame. And these games should be compared on their own merits is all. Hell I compared lots of aspects of these games in this very thread.

If you werent talking to me then please disregard

It was directed towards Maven more than you

 

[kinigitt]

ENTHUSIA!!!

hahahahhahhahhahahaha.

only 40 dollars (cdn), and it pretty much shat all over GT4's driving experience, IMO.

so whether or not GT4 has a mildly better driving experience than Forza is irrelevant when it has competitors knocking on it's door on it's own console, with IT'S OWN WHEEL (soooooo sweet with the dfp, with self-centering and a strong unique feel for each car)

anyway, back on topic...

another plus to forza is the fact that it's so challenging. anybody that's doing professional mode races knows what I mean.

but that brings to attention a minus: the A.I. are smart all right...at TRYING TO KILL YOU!

in PGR2, I welcomed that sort of challenge, but Forza is a sim, and unless the grids are full of homocidal maniacs and psychopaths in real life, it's doing a terrible job of simulating proper racing behaviour.

so amar, hats off to you with the toca2 vindication. it has much better A.I.

 

[flynn]

ENTHUSIA!!!

hahahahhahhahhahahaha.

only 40 dollars (cdn), and it pretty much shat all over GT4's driving experience, IMO.

so whether or not GT4 has a mildly better driving experience than Forza is irrelevant when it has competitors knocking on it's door on it's own console, with IT'S OWN WHEEL.

here we go again


good times

 

[kinigitt]

here we go again


good times

 

[code_kev]

I'll say one thing, it's worth setting the AI to hard on frorza, just had a great race in lowly D class. It was SO CLOSE, my integra was having a hard time against that damn Audi Quattro!

 

[slackbladder]

I guess I should stick an oar in seeing as I have both games too! But this is just my opinion, as good and as bad as anybody elses!

I've only been playing Forza for a short while but I will say it certainly isn't any worse than GT4, and in some areas it is better. And I've played GT games since GT1. It is reasonable to say that GT4 is a bit on the boring side. It tries so hard to be real it loses out on the elements that make racing games so much fun. But really I have no serious criticisms of GT4 except its AI and its tendancy to have races where there is only one car in a field of five that is far superior to everyone else which in turn means you are racing one other car, not five other cars! That really annoys me and can make racing very boring and almost pointless. But I love the feel of the cars and it looks amazing.
Forza does'nt look as polished. It still looks good, all of Forza looks good but not quite as good as GT4. It lacks the sharpness, the picture resolution of GT4. The circuits are nicely detailed but a little too colourful for my taste. It's certainly not as smooth but you don't really notice that whilst racing. (Anyone else watching will though!) The cars themselves though nice and solid lack that perfection that the GT4 cars have. And the car reflections in Forza are horrendous! And in some respects almost ruin the look of the game.

However, Forza is more fun. The car handling, though suspiciously arcade-like at times is very nice and great fun! It's almost impossible to pull donuts in GT4, but in Forza it's a piece of cake! However I really could'nt say which one had better physics because for one I don't drive in real life (so I have no experiance of real driving physics) and two I don't really care! GT4 feels the more subtle, more refined than Forza but Forza is good fun. And that counts for a lot!

The cars sound like cars, the race cars particularly, but the actual sound quality is poor. There's no ambience in the sound. They sound like a 64Kbps recording. Also the sound is the same for all views be they outside the car or first-person. Though the 5.1 is fine and the crashes and bangs do sound good I prefer the sharpness and clarity of GT4.

But where Forza score points is in its tuning options. There are more, they are easier to use and the decal options add a whole new element. Admittedly it's a bit NFS:U but it does mean there's a lot you can do with your cars.

I also like the ability to put the manual gears on the right stick and use the triggers for accelerate and brake, though it's going to take me a while to master it! But it is a shame that you can not configure the controller exactly the way you want it.

Another neat feature is the freedom to make the races as difficult or as easy as you want! This means if you're not too good you can still at least play and enjoy it, unlike in GT4 which gives you little room for error at times.

Music on Forza is iffy. GT4 is better, but Forza lets you use the music you've ripped to your Xbox so it's no problem. But the GT4 replays are certainly superior!

I've not mentioned Xbox Live as I don't have it at the moment.

When all is said and done I do like Forza, a lot. But I must say that GT4 is still king with me. If I want to take a McLaren Mercedes SLR out on the Nurb I'll probably do it in GT4. But, and it's a big but, Forza in many ways has an edge on GT4 and it'd do the future GT5 well to look at Forza long and hard and learn from it. Because Forza very nearly steals the crown! And for other people it already has!

 

[Devedander]

Also the sound is the same for all views be they outside the car or first-person.

Are you meaning that they use the same sound file for both inside and out? Because when I move out of the car it sounds a lot different ot me... sounds like the same sound file but with really different effects applied and from a different spatial area...

If you mean it sounds like the same sound file, then I think it should since it's the same car, but if it literally sounds exactly the same something is wrong with your setup... from inside the car it should sound muted and come from front or rear depending on motor mount, and from outside it should sound loud and sharp and come from in front of you always...

Otherwise good points, don't agree on some but well put.

 

[Devedander]

Actually, the new slim PS2 comes online ready, so that does make ONLINE Free and no need to buy anything else. BUT I do agree XBL is much better.

Slim PS2 costs about $50 more too though... so yeah you get a thinner PS2 in the bargain too but loose HD support... so I really look at it like the slim PS2 is just buying a bundled network adapter.

 

[Devedander]

Word. To. Your. Mother. 👍

The driving experience is infinitely more important to me than "t3h ubZr fast competition-y racing action". That's why I'd put both GT4 and Enthusia substantially ahead of Forza. If Microsoft was aiming their guns solely at GT with Forza, they were waaaaay off target.

I don't think Forza was trying to do exactly what GT4 does but better, I think it was trying to pull off the same idea, but do it in a better overall way.

And its not the uber fast racing action that people are referring to in Forza for the most part, it's the solid AI interaction and overal realism of the game as a whole, which is what a sim is. It's arguable which game provides a better invidual driving experience, but it's pretty much a given that GT4 uses rail driving AI while forza at least attempts some sort of variance in it's drivers.

To me the difference is like a football game in which the computer always runs the plays exactly as they are shwon in teh playbook (GT4) or where the computer tries to react to what's going on on the field (Forza). The computer may make stupid mistakes trying to be dynamic, but I prefer that to the same dry action each time.

And (not directly at the quoted post) but to those who complain the AI in forza is vicious and is out to get you... I have to say that the AI cars in forza only seems to come after me AFTER I have hit or bumped one of them. I have to wonder if the people who feel the AI is too agressive are just not racing as clean as they need to... sometimes you have to surrender the pass attempt because the AI blocked you or cut you off, sometimes you have to let someone pass you to avoid contact. It happens and you see it all the time in ral racing, but a lot of people who are used to the no memory AI of other racers are used to nudging their way into the lead, or getting away with a few bumps and pushese here and there.

If so keep in mind Forza rewards clean driving and punishes bad driving. It may be a little liberal in it's punishment but I can safely say that other than pileups at the start line and hairpins, for the most part Forza drivers leave me alone if I leave them alone.

 

[Devedander]

Really a negative point?Take this into context...

To get a license to use even one of their cars,Sony will be dishing out some major cash (apparently something they don't want to do).Notice how Forza won't have as many cars as GT4...only because it will be burning it's cash on high-priced-licensed exotics whereas GT4 makes the game funner and more challenging by giving you basic cars to start with,but then after that you still have a chance to get a variety of cars that are alot better and cooler than Lamborghini,Ferrari etc.

I could easily go through the GT4 roster and pick 400 cars that I wouldn't care about dropping if they would put damage modeling in the game.

It's like saying I have a baseball card collection of 10,000 and you only have 150. Never mind that most of mine are nobody's that no one really wants, and you have lots of famous players rookie cards and a interesting players cards.

If sheer volume of cars is what matters then yes GT4 is far ahead... but so far in Forza I have yet to find myself feeling the selection of cars is lacking... in fact I think it may be good to have a slightly shorter roster, because in the end how many cars in GT4 will you own but never have really driven? Are you willing to trade gameplay for cars in a garage you will never use?

Just like in real life I would prefer to have a small stable of cars that I have taken the time to learn, customize and get a solid feel for, rather than a wherehouse of cars, half of which I don't remember I have, and few of which have ever seen more than an hour of drive time let. Racing is in the nuances, and if you have 8 hours a day to spend on your game, then maybe you can get the nuances of all the cars in GT4, but I think most of us have significantly less time than that.

Ok...lets say YOU are the lead director of PD.And your getting thousands of letters and emails saying people want damage....are you going to spend millions of dollars on the licenses?Or are you going to save millions and not put licenses on some 500+ cars?Exactly.I know Sony is a rich ass company,but I doubt even if you were that rich you would be spending millions on damage licenses.

Well I don't think it costs millions for the damage licenses, as Forza licensed damage to a lot of cars (and a lot of big name cars) and they are still hoping to turn a profit. And the big point isn't even so much what it would have cost, but that PD clearly said the manufacturers WOULDN'T license damage, not that they were trying to save money by not licensing it.

So now they were lying and you have to wonder why. Maybe it's because they didn't want to admit they traded a very important piece of the simulation for saving a few $$$ or for giving you access to that Model A that is a great novelty item that I drove exactly twice and never looked at again.

Back to football: Company A: Oh we don't have injuries in our game because the NFL won't license it and the computer always runs plays pretty much the same regardless of what you do. But he game looks really sweet and as a bonus you have access to all the arena football teams!

Company B: We have injuries in our game, and the AI reacts dynamically to your actions. But you may not have the actual stadiums, and we only have the current years NFL teams and roster, so sadly you can't play as the 95 Jets or anything like that.

Which do you choose? Well considering how important it is to the actual play of the game, I will give up the frills for the in depth gameplay in a second.

THEY GAVE US THE REST OF GT4!

What exactly is the rest of GT4? Well let's see... it's GT3 + Photo mode, plus some more tracks and some more cars... So it's a GT3 expansion pack with a face lift... but no real solid gameplay improvements... Well that's worth a huge chunk of realism...

If they got all of those licenses,we wouldn't have 50+ tracks...we wouldn't have 500+ cars and we wouldn't have the insane gameplay that GT4 gave us.

And if Forza got 50+ tracks and 500+ cars we wouldn't have a damage model, and we wouldn't have a complex physics system that provides comprehensive feedback and tuning options... but that would be ok, because it would only be a huge chunk of the gameplay, but in return we would have some great eye candy and fluff.

 

[Raf Laureys]

Friday 13th, I've bought Forza today and afther about 3 hours of play I am very sorry to say, Amar, your review is the only right one. My early opinion of Forza was based on the OXM-demo and my worst fears have come true. The demo was better than the actual game. I am SO dissapointed. It seems they even "eased down" the physics. I need more playing time with more cars etc but now I don't even feel like trying. Now I understand why you made those statements.

 

[WeAreN1nja]

Agreed. GT4 still gets more rotation than Forza at my house. No fanboyism here, and nothing against Forza, but it doesn't make me all misty-eyed the way GT4 does. My .02:

Forza's physics are nice, if not a bit arcadey. I don't care what anyone says, FF's don't drift like that. GT's physics aren't spot on either, but they're alot more enjoyable IMO.

Forza uses sound differently than GT, placing a heavier emphasis on engine and exhaust notes, but the sound doesn't seemed "tuned" correctly; I use a Dolby 5.1 setup and it sounded like it was on mono the entire time. At one point I turned off all the in-race music to help differentiate my car from all the others...

Graphically, the cars lack the sheen of the GT cars, though this seems to be remedied to a certain extent by a new paintjob on most of the cars. Some of the car models are way off, though. Waaaay off. Like the Mazda 3 and the GC8 Imprezas...

Forza hits the bullseye in other areas, though. It's AI would run circles around GT's if they cut the AI driver's IQ's in half, making for some very tense races.

Forza offers more tuning options, and explains at length what each option does, making the tuning aspect of the game alot less intimidating to players unfamiliar with the workings of an automobile.

Forza is also more accessible all the way around; with helpful driving aids and informative tips. It's a well known fact that Gran Turismo's license tests are not for the faint of heart.

Forza has damage. GT doesn't. It's very well done and it's nice to finally have it in such a game, I suppose, but I wouldn't have thought any less of the game if it didn't. Damage was never very important to me in a driving game. But that's just me.

Finally, Forza boasts a much greater level of customization. Again, it's nice that it's there, but if I cared about "supAr ninja killa" body kits and 7000 layers of stickers, I'd toss NFS:U2 in for a spin.

That said, both games are great, and both games have their strengths and weaknesses. Neither is perfect, neither is t3h sUx0r2. Both provide very different experiences, Forza, with it's challenging AI and robust online competition is geared towards racing enthusiasts and those who enjoy the "rush" you get form tough, honest competition. GT4 with it's carwashes and oil changes and photomode is geared more towards automotive enthusiasts who appreciate automobiles for more than how fast they can go or how quickly they can run the quartermile, and enjoy driving for the sake of driving.

Ultimately, it all boils down to personal taste...

 

[kinigitt]

Ultimately, it all boils down to personal taste...

well said!

GT4: driving enjoyment

Forza: racing excitement

Enthusia: driving excitement. if that makes sense.

 

[Max_DC]

Ok...lets say YOU are the lead director of PD.And your getting thousands of letters and emails saying people want damage....are you going to spend millions of dollars on the licenses?Or are you going to save millions and not put licenses on some 500+ cars?Exactly.I know Sony is a rich ass company,but I doubt even if you were that rich you would be spending millions on damage licenses.

Well I don't think it costs millions for the damage licenses, as Forza licensed damage to a lot of cars (and a lot of big name cars) and they are still hoping to turn a profit. And the big point isn't even so much what it would have cost, but that PD clearly said the manufacturers WOULDN'T license damage, not that they were trying to save money by not licensing it.

So now they were lying and you have to wonder why. Maybe it's because they didn't want to admit they traded a very important piece of the simulation for saving a few $$$ or for giving you access to that Model A that is a great novelty item that I drove exactly twice and never looked at again.

Yamauchi said that the PS2 is not capable of realistic damage in GT4 without greatly reducing other things ( grafics, driving parameters) ; It will probably come in GT5, and if it comes it is realistic, which is not the case in Forza ( well at least it has a damage system of course)... + the fact that PS3 seems to be a lot more powerful than Xbox 360 = we have something to wait for...

 

[WeAreN1nja]

I could easily go through the GT4 roster and pick 400 cars that I wouldn't care about dropping if they would put damage modeling in the game....

So now they were lying and you have to wonder why. Maybe it's because they didn't want to admit they traded a very important piece of the simulation for saving a few $$$ or for giving you access to that Model A that is a great novelty item that I drove exactly twice and never looked at again....

But that's exactly the point. PD knew no one would spend any substantial time actually driving the Model T and probably a hundred or so other cars in the game, but it's there if you get the urge. After tearing around a track for the hundreth time in the Viper, or C5, or whatever one considers the ultimate evolution of the American sports car, it's unbelievably cool to go back and drive the car that started it all. It's nice to take an old Datsun out for a couple of laps, then run the new Z against the Datsun ghost; to watch how they handle; to compare the lines you had to take to turn laps quickly. At least to me, it is.

GT and Forza were created in two different mindsets with two very different goals.

EDIT: Oh, and though I didn't necessarily agree with it, your football analogy was excellent. 👍

 

[McLaren]

Yamauchi said that the PS2 is not capable of realistic damage in GT4 without greatly reducing other things ( grafics, driving parameters) ; It will probably come in GT5, and if it comes it is realistic, which is not the case in Forza ( well at least it has a damage system of course)... + the fact that PS3 seems to be a lot more powerful than Xbox 360 = we have something to wait for...

Don't worry. KY reported damage is now finally one of their top priorities for GT5.

 

[TVRKing]

A little test to show you how much the Ring sucks in Forza, go around it in any car and try to maintain a 60 MPH average and look at your time, it should be around 14 minutes at a 60 MPH average. All of mine have been way past that.

You've never heard of slowing down for corners then?

The 'burg isn't just a 14 mile drag strip.

And when it comes to realism, can your stock Jaguar E-type to go around the circuit in 8 and a half minutes?

Mine can, and I could proabably make it go around faster if I did it instead of using B-spec.

 

[kinigitt]

Yamauchi said that the PS2 is not capable of realistic damage in GT4 without greatly reducing other things ( grafics, driving parameters) ; It will probably come in GT5, and if it comes it is realistic, which is not the case in Forza ( well at least it has a damage system of course)... + the fact that PS3 seems to be a lot more powerful than Xbox 360 = we have something to wait for...

IF it is more powerful. and since we dont know,we cant assume. everyone assumed the ps2 would be impressive on launch given all the hype and tech demos beforehand. it wasnt however. I already had a dreamcast and really didnt see what was so ****-hot about the sony wonder machine.

but here's to hoping.

 

[TVRKing]

I'd just like to know how it can be more powerful than a machine with 3 3GHZ processors.

No seriously, I'm not flaming, I'm just curious.

 

[slackbladder]

Are you meaning that they use the same sound file for both inside and out? Because when I move out of the car it sounds a lot different ot me... sounds like the same sound file but with really different effects applied and from a different spatial area...

If you mean it sounds like the same sound file, then I think it should since it's the same car, but if it literally sounds exactly the same something is wrong with your setup... from inside the car it should sound muted and come from front or rear depending on motor mount, and from outside it should sound loud and sharp and come from in front of you always...

Otherwise good points, don't agree on some but well put.

Yes, they do sound a little different. To me, the sound is better when "in" the car. In 5.1 you can hear more ambience certainly. But really the problem I have with the sound is that it just isn't crisp enough and lacks definition. The engine, turbo, exhaust sounds etc seem to me to be muddled together. In GT4 the sounds of the engine, turbo etc is more seperate, better defined. In Forza they lack sound quality, though I will say that the sounds of other cars roaring down the track is good in 5.1! They do sound like real engine sounds in a way that many in GT4 don't but I simply prefer the crispness and sharpness of GT4's engine sounds. But maybe that is simply a personal preferance.

There are however two things about Forza I don't like. One is that the tracks are too wide. You could drive a bus around the Nurburgring! Iwas taking corners at far greater speeds than I should have in a stock Celica. Sometimes the tracks are so wide you can hardly see the apex of the corner you're taking. And sometimes hitting the apex isn't important because the track is so wide you can just drift out and not worry about it.
My other gripe is the lack of communication between the road and the car. You don't feel the road at all, just the car when it brakes or slides or runs over kerb. If you closed your eyes you would'nt even know you were driving because you can't feel anything. You can see the cars suspension moving up and down and the bottom of the car scraping on the road but you can't feel it. Driving on the Nurb I thought it was completely flat! It's not very accurate...
Apart from that it's a lot of fun! 👍

 

[Raf Laureys]

I've done a bit more Forza today afther my first dissapointing inpressions yesterday. I've started the careermode and the races are very entertaining. I am reasonably satisfied now. My biggest dissapointments are (very personal): They have somehow mixed all the sounds of all the cars when your driving so you can't almost tell the diff. between your engine and your opponents. Pretty much unacceptable if you take into account the amount of work and time they've put into Forza. The sound in the OXM-demo was PERFECT. I can't complain about the physics really but again in the demo it seemed much more challenging to control the cars. I'm very happy with most of the tracks but as stated by many people before they've made the Nurburgring somehow way to big, to long, to large whatever and in such proportions that it pretty much ruins the ring-drivingexperience that wonderfully excists in both PGR2 and GT4. Another issue I'm not that happy with are the replays. Those floating cameras taking close-up shots of the cars ruin the illusion of looking at real footage. Overall I think it's still a very nice enteraining game. Going back to GT4 wich I have played most of last week I've had very much fun just lapping the ring in very different cars just in arcade taking a break from the careermode and the need to win more cars. I love bith Chapparals specially the "sucker-car" wich is really a big challenge at the ring. From the less powerful cars I remember the Triumph Spitfire and the Honda S800 racer being much fun. I think people sometimes give up on GT4 too early.

 

[F1GTR]

Played Forza today,it was quite impressive to say the least.The handling(to me)didn't feel at all that different than GT4 and because of that,I trashed everyone who played me in GAME.I did notice it was ALOT easier to drift and spin cars.The damage is quite well done and I just love smashing up a Ferrari Enzo.Graphics wise it was excellent,but a bit too colourful for my tastes.