GT4 vs Forza [Let the battle begin]
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- Snaykinn
LaBounti
Yeah - I caught that. I'm glad that I'm not the only one feeling that way. I think I may have to suck it up and turn on the ABS aid.
and while I don't think it's a waste of time, Vipe, I think that it's good that people get their opinions out and, yes, there are more fun things to be doing than comparing the two games.
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And there you have it. The most profound statement in this entire 270+ page thread...LaBounti
GT was never about being t3h ubArest racing game evAr. It was always about the "driving experience". Kazunori Yamauichi(sp?) once said his dream was for people to play GT and want to go out and buy a car. Not become Paul Walker (TFATF) or Mario Andretti or Colin McRae, but to simply enjoy driving an automobile. Both games have two different aims, and to compare them is to miss the point.
Oh, and amar212, you rock. 👍
- 2,353
I must admit, for a game that highly encourages 'tricking out' your ride and a high degree of personal customization ... I'm befuddled why there isn't an easy way to take photos and upload them/port them to PC. This seems to be a glaring omission.
ALso, is it just me, or are the corners almost impossible to see (on 480i) until you're on them? I don't see any markers, chevrons, warning posts, feet markers ... nothing.
Oh, and the MadCatzII wheel just doesn't hold a candle to the DFP ... poor little MCII ... the entire time you're using an effective turning radius of about 25 degrees, which ultimately means the SLIGHTEST movement of the wrist produces an insane amount of reaction from the car ... it makes it almost impossible to use.
They really should have created a damn good wheel for this game and not some pseudo-force-rumble knockoff.
ALso, is it just me, or are the corners almost impossible to see (on 480i) until you're on them? I don't see any markers, chevrons, warning posts, feet markers ... nothing.
Oh, and the MadCatzII wheel just doesn't hold a candle to the DFP ... poor little MCII ... the entire time you're using an effective turning radius of about 25 degrees, which ultimately means the SLIGHTEST movement of the wrist produces an insane amount of reaction from the car ... it makes it almost impossible to use.
They really should have created a damn good wheel for this game and not some pseudo-force-rumble knockoff.
- 4,323
Kolyana
The point of the game is to learn the tracks so you don't need big yellow flashing arrow warning you of an upcomming turn. But in any case the always present map gives you an idea what's comming up, and unless I am sadly mistaken almost every corner has dark rubber marks at the beginning. Use this as a breaking point and adjust per the car you drive.
Some courses do have other visual cues like in Japan red signs with arrows, and in some race tracks there are meter markings. But as in real life many road courses will not feature signs for turns as at regular driving speeds you would not need the warning.
I have drivine with no driving aids and in car view since the first moment and after the first race rarely missed a turn. Follow these 2 rules and you should be ok:
Keep an eye on the map, on every straightaway take a glance at it to see what's comming up. It's your copilot/crew
If in doubt, let off the gas. If you haven't memorized the track, if you are comming to a crest, or you are so close behind people you can't see the track ahead, do what a real driver would do, take a few MPH hit and avoid the huge risk of crashing or going off track. You can make up a 1 second loss in position, it's very hard to make up a 4 second loss due to sliding out of a turn.
I think the MC2 and DFP are both flawed in entirely different ways... the MC2 because of the obvious force feedback omission (instead a progressive spring resistanc feature is given which is a poor but acceptable - given price and lack of FF ability on the Xbox part - for me) and the DFP provides awesome feedback while still managing to feel totally fake in that it has no self centering, and to a lesser extent fails because high speed handling doesn't feel signicantly different from low speed handling in terms of feedback.
The whole time I drive the DFP I feel like I am driving in 2 inches of gravel because it would take that to make the wheels fight back so little.
So in the end both of them leave lots to be desired. DFP seemingly by omission and the MC2 by lack of ability to support.
I still find that the 900 degrees of rotation is kind of a novelty though... I rarely if ever have to crank it more than 120 degrees accept on very rare occasions, and when I do it is more of a chore than a nice feature, especially considering with no self centering you have to fight the wheel the whole way back to straight which is very unrealistic and pretty much counters the benefit of having the ability.
I feel MC2 does everything ok, but nothing great, and DFP does 1 thing incredibly well and sacrifices in another dept. If you don't drive a real car much, and aren't used to how a real steering wheel reacts then then you might not notice on the DFP, but for me, it's a glaring ommision and bothers me the whole time I am racing more than the FF impresses me.
In the end I still go with my MC2, which has some decent rumble (which in some cases actually fools me into thinking it's force feedback like on a high speed straight when my steering is a little jacked, the unit rumbles 1 turn and it feels like the wheels shifting or tracking a little off) and at least doesn't feel to me like driving a tank with good feedback.
They are two different worlds though...
I have not tried the Fanatec wheel but I have to agree a good wheel was truly called for. Sadly the lack of support for FF simply preempts that possibillty. And at the price, knowing the Fanatec wheel does not feature real FF I won't even be trying it. MC2 is fine for $50.
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- Labounti
Thats not the wheels fault, its the game you are playing. software issue not hard ware.
Ever drive a real car, when driving at hgh speed you never need more than 40-50 degrees, any more and anything less than a sports car will loss control. Also you must have never tried rally racing in GT4. It adds to the realistic driving experience, 200 degrees does not. 900 degrees is perfect for GT4, it gives more of a feeling of driving a real car that has multiple turns. And its just more fun
Again a software issue, not the case with other games. The only real flaw to DFP is the noise. other wise the best racing wheel you can buy for PS2 and PC.
try driving a car instead of racing it then you will see the true purpose of the DFP and GT4. At least try the whel with other games. TOCA RD2 makes far better use of the wheel than GT4. You can chance the sterring degrees too.
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LaBounti
Well if we are gonna go there, then it's not any wheels fault the Fanatec or even the MC2 doesn't have FF, that's the Xbox's fault. Doesn't make it any it any less of an issue.
I agree that in the rally racing portion having lots of turning is kind of nice, but it still never gets away from the fact that after running full tilt I have to crank the wheel back straight rather than let it slide back (which would accomplish the task much faster) so rather than snapping out of a sharp turn I have to compensate for the wheel.
And during the portions where I am driving a normal car (not rally) then the wheel simply feels like overkill and makes the cars feel like they understeer too much.
So in the end this 900 degrees rotation really only is cool in rally mode (where acutally most of the time everything feels pretty good since you are probably driving in a few inches of gravel) however GT4 rally mode is pretty weak after you have played the competition. It's nice that GT4 has rally mode in it, but it's hardly a solid rally game, so the only place the wheel even comes close to shining is in the part of the game that pales in comparison to what I have played before.
And as you said on road cars you almost never use more than 50 degrees... so during the majority of the game, and where teh game really performs well the 900 degrees is pretty pointless, except to remind me how much it bites pulling the wheel back from some super sharp turn when it should be spinning back on it's own...
I assume that you are referring to the fact the wheel feels like driving in deep gravel. Considering this wheel was made to go hand in hand with GT4 whever the fault lies I don't care, it should not be this way. You can't blame the flaws of the game on the wheel and the flaws of the wheel on the game. It either works right or it doesn't. I don't argue it lacks potential and merit, I argue it's not doing what I would expect right now.
I tried "driving" the car, as you proposed, and a lot of my gripes are still there. The big problem is that GT4 is not supposed to be about driving a car at normal road speeds. If it was they wouldn't have made it a race setup and rewarded you for winning races.
And as for trying with other games, this is about Gt4 and the DFP, the things that were made to go hand in hand. The wheel may feel better with Toca 2 but then I REALLY have to ask why it doesn't feel as good with GT4? I mean, wheel made to go with GT4 works better with Toca? What's wrong with that pic? And I believe in Toca you do not have the full 900 degress rotation... so it's a tradeoff again.
All I am saying is for the hype, the price and the time they had to work on it, something is amiss. I agree it gives something tactile to the game that is not there any other way, but is it really what I wanted? Is it really realistic? Does it make me believe I am driving this car? Not really... It makes me believe they stuck some good technology in a device and implemented it wrong. Not even poorly, just wrong. For the price, hype and situation I would expect more.
- 4,323
live4speed
I forget what one but I am sure it was a logitec wheel on the PC that was used for F1 games. I haven't ever driven an F1 car but it sure felt right, down to the last detail so it's possible.
If people are going to pick nits with Forza for not having FF, then this issue of very fake FF needs to be looked at.
I agree that the wheel gives you a tactile response to the important things in the game, but it does not even closely represent what it would feel like to drive the cars in most cases.
- 30,026
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
A wheel can feel right, but none ARE, it's like GT4's physics feeling right yet they're some way off how a real car drives. The DFP feels great, but when I go out and drive my car it's so different it's not funny. The DFP is the best wheel on the market, so I doubt any other would give a better feeling.
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live4speed
This is only true on consoles. The PC market has some better wheels with better feedback. But yes I agree that for the most part the DFP is the best wheel on the market for a console at the moment. Solid build, feels good and has FF.
Now if they will just put that potential to good use...
For now though the DFP provides an interesting experience, but not a simulation. To say the DFP simulates driving is to say Rallysport Challenge 2 simulates rally racing.
- 30,026
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
I've driven other good wheels for the PC and none of them cut it imo, the momo wheel (might be the one you used it's made by Logitech), there was a Ferrari wheel I've used and ther Microsoft sidewinder wheel. I think the Momo is regarded as one of the best, yet that didn't cut it either. They're good.... For games.
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LaBounti
the difference is that you guys said it nicely, while he resorted to arrogance and spin.
if a flaw is there, it's there. there's no trouble in admitting it. forza has a lot of flaws, but I just think that for a first try, they nailed it.
it's no GT4 supplement, but it's a GT4 compliment. you know?
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- Labounti
What? Its the real driving simulator and its right on the case. Why are there 30hp cars in the game then,some cant even get to 70mph, full trottle in them doesnt quite feel like racing to me. If all you could do was race at high speed that would eliminate 95% of the cars. Racing isnt the "idea" of GT4, "driving" cars 1hp to 1000hp. Forza does a bad job of low speed "driving" but thats not the idea behind Forza.
Also you are "judging" the wheel. Saying it has flaws, not GT4's flaws with the wheel. The rally mode is good it may not stack up to other games(you have play) but that doesnt mean its not good. its fun. Watching real guys drifting- the wheel does not center its self to counter steer, they vigorously spin the wheel, this is what makes it fun. to go from lock to lock in less than 1 second. The strength of the wheel changes depending on traction.
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LaBounti
Why are you encouraged to drive those 30 HP cars at the top of their limits?
A real driving simulator would have you driving around, signalling, stopping at lights, parking etc.
This is obviously a racing game.
And I honestly never drove those ancient relic cars that are thrown into GT4 with the wheel, just didn't bother. So maybe they do control right with the DFP, but I really don't care to drive those no matter what, and if THAT is what the DFP gets right then something is again sorely wrong.
And I don't see how you come up with eliminating 95% of the cars... As I said the DFP may simulate low speed driving accurately, but by that I mean under 20mph. For a vast majority of the time you use it you will be going over 20mph with any of the cars.
And rally cars DO have self centering steering, it's just the conditions they are in require that the driver add his own power to get the wheels back. Mainly because they are on dirt and gravel. Watch the tarmac strips of rally car races, when they come to a hairpin, slam on the brakes and crank the wheel, watch, you will see the wheel freespin back, and you wil not see the driver cranking it back as anyone who has had to do a really sharp turn on tarmac knows the wheel should self center faster than you can do it under accel.
And if you think the drifter dont have self centering steering you are again wrong... They drive for the most part standard cars that are souped up, but have the same steering system. Sometimes they may take out the power steering (for God knows what reason) but even without PS a car will self center under acceleration.
I am not trying to judge the wheel or the game seperately. I am trying to judge the experience of using the wheel on the game. When you bring up points like TOCA or the rally portions of the game speicifcally I have ot answer in kind, but in general it seems that the wheel is far inferior to what it should have been considering what they ahve to work with.
As I said the DFP is currently the best console wheel available. But it's far from what it should be for a simulation controller.
Oh and I think the Momo wheel was the one I used, and I thought it was pretty friggin sweet. The F1 game I played actually pulled the wheel center and it felt like I could feel the tires on the road and everything. Now again I have never driven an F1 so maybe that's not at all what it feels like, but it does show that the feeling I am looking for can be provided with existing hardware standards.
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- Gabkicks
- GabkicksX
I saw one vid of a guy drifting a car that had to have had at least 3 full turns lock to lock drifting by basicly just letting the wheel spin and mashing the gas, and grabbing the wheel once in a while. The wheel spun insanely fast and if the DFP spun that quickly it would probably be banned from the public.
Well all I can say is I am veeeery picky about my controls. So far there have only been a handfull of wheel/game combos that feel natural to me. By natural I mean I can start the game up and go without having to think about it, just like in RL. GT4 is one of them. GTR and Toca Racing (the first one) are some other examples. But I would say GT4 is way ahead of the pack in this area. I didnt have to "adjust", and it felt very natural after the first lap or so around the ring. That to me is the ultimate test of a steeringwheel and game. IMO if someone doesnt like GT4 and the wheel from a control standpoint, I dont think they will ever be happy with a game/wheel combo ever. Its not to say its perfect, but again imo currently the best out there. Even better than some high end sims in the $200,000 range in terms of controls and feel. Though you dont get all the cool hydrolic based G-simulation
I would also doubt anyone can say the "control" is any good in Forza at all. I still cant keep the car from jerking all around through even the easiest of turns. Granted this is using a thumb stick...but I'm starting to read around that a wheel doesnt help Forza all that much in this deptartment. But like some others have said its an amazing first attempt, and I personally cant wait for a future Forza release. But as it stands now, I am not going to buy a wheel for it...simply cause I dont have faith in their controls enough to warrent $100+. Hopefully when more people here get a wheel for Forza they can change my mind.
This is all based on my opinion....but like I said I am very critical of controls, and found the DFP with GT4 to simply be near perfection (minus using gears instead of belts
)
I would also doubt anyone can say the "control" is any good in Forza at all. I still cant keep the car from jerking all around through even the easiest of turns. Granted this is using a thumb stick...but I'm starting to read around that a wheel doesnt help Forza all that much in this deptartment. But like some others have said its an amazing first attempt, and I personally cant wait for a future Forza release. But as it stands now, I am not going to buy a wheel for it...simply cause I dont have faith in their controls enough to warrent $100+. Hopefully when more people here get a wheel for Forza they can change my mind.
This is all based on my opinion....but like I said I am very critical of controls, and found the DFP with GT4 to simply be near perfection (minus using gears instead of belts
)
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Look, I give everyone their equal vote. But, if you're leaning for Forza, you're obviously on the wrong site. I just hate how the Xbox can just stroll into the gaming industry and take over everything!!! 
They've already taken the "Best FPS" with Halo 2. Xbox Live is kicking butt. And, apparently every game has better graphics on the Xbox. But, one thing that Microsoft will not take the title of racing! The only reason there is any controversy is because Forza, besides Project Gotham, is Xbox's only hi-profile racing release. Nowhere does that say it's anywhere near as good as the legend that is Gran Turismo. It's just that there are a lot of people who only have Xboxs and can't get GT4! So, they pick up Forza and mess around with it for a while and claim that it's about to take the racing title from the legendary GT4! Driving is driving, and you get a better sense of it in GT4!
Remember that glow in your heart and the smile on your face when you saw all the tracks and cars in GT4? Me too.
They've already taken the "Best FPS" with Halo 2. Xbox Live is kicking butt. And, apparently every game has better graphics on the Xbox. But, one thing that Microsoft will not take the title of racing! The only reason there is any controversy is because Forza, besides Project Gotham, is Xbox's only hi-profile racing release. Nowhere does that say it's anywhere near as good as the legend that is Gran Turismo. It's just that there are a lot of people who only have Xboxs and can't get GT4! So, they pick up Forza and mess around with it for a while and claim that it's about to take the racing title from the legendary GT4! Driving is driving, and you get a better sense of it in GT4! Remember that glow in your heart and the smile on your face when you saw all the tracks and cars in GT4? Me too.
McLaren
Premium
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superfastLook, I give everyone their equal vote. But, if you're leaning for Forza, you're obviously on the wrong site. I just hate how the Xbox can just stroll into the gaming industry and take over everything!!!
Remember that glow in your heart and the smile on your face when you saw all the tracks and cars in GT4? Me too.
WTF are you smoking!?
You know GT4 is nowhere near the title of Legendary Racer, right?
That title belongs to GTR, arguably the BEST D*MN SIM out there followed by GPL and F355. GT4 and Forza are like 5th or below in the Racing sim line-up.
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Superfast, you forgot to mention Rallisport Challenge 2. Also There are plenty of games that spank these console sims.
You can actually like BOTH forza and Gt4, Gt4 doesn't have to be your fave game to be allowed to browse these forums. Hell, I'm bored of GT4. Gt4 is hardly legendary, to be legendary a game it has to be incredible, for example, if you called Halo 2 legendary, I'd laugh in your face, it's good, but more of the same. This is the same with GT4, good but more of the same. Half Life 2 though, that's another story!
I also think that in some ways Forza feels better then GT4, races are more exciting etc.
You can actually like BOTH forza and Gt4, Gt4 doesn't have to be your fave game to be allowed to browse these forums. Hell, I'm bored of GT4. Gt4 is hardly legendary, to be legendary a game it has to be incredible, for example, if you called Halo 2 legendary, I'd laugh in your face, it's good, but more of the same. This is the same with GT4, good but more of the same. Half Life 2 though, that's another story!
I also think that in some ways Forza feels better then GT4, races are more exciting etc.
If you are buying a console as a PS2 owner I would say DO NOT BUY IT! Its an ok console, but really it is getting old and theres many disadvantages:
it will crash all the time, its slow, it has poor graphics, it has bad games, the online is bad, the memory cards cost as much as a new PS2, the games are all the same
but GT4 is immense however it has the following disadvantages:
it requires a lot of playing, you can't do many nice short races, to get decent cars u need to put in lots of effort, you cant do up cars visually, all the best cars (ferrari) are missing, the only really fun two player thing to do is with dodge midgets on the slope town race course which is sunny, also the crashes are un realistic and you cant smash each other up
id just get Xbox and MotoGP 3, honestly guys, great crashes, immense overtaking, doing up you bike, wooo! and i hv to hv MotoGP 4 PS2 which i hope you can crash in and tell me if u can anyone please
it will crash all the time, its slow, it has poor graphics, it has bad games, the online is bad, the memory cards cost as much as a new PS2, the games are all the same
but GT4 is immense however it has the following disadvantages:
it requires a lot of playing, you can't do many nice short races, to get decent cars u need to put in lots of effort, you cant do up cars visually, all the best cars (ferrari) are missing, the only really fun two player thing to do is with dodge midgets on the slope town race course which is sunny, also the crashes are un realistic and you cant smash each other up
id just get Xbox and MotoGP 3, honestly guys, great crashes, immense overtaking, doing up you bike, wooo! and i hv to hv MotoGP 4 PS2 which i hope you can crash in and tell me if u can anyone please
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