GT4 WRS Week 76 : "Snake in the Valley"

[SHigSpeed]

Never wanted an argument 👍
I just don't really think it is valid, noones ever complained before, and NTSC/PAL users are always very very close.

Like I say, no arguments.

Yes, generally it's very close, but on a few clear occasions, one or the other have been faster, and not always NTSC over PAL or the other way around. The Fairlady Z LM car at El Cap was clearly that way and this week is certainly looking similar. The 4 MPH difference at the SFL is pretty damning evidence as has been mentioned.

The framerate argument sounds good, but unlikely since, as mentioned above, it usually normally very close...

-SHig

 

[Casio]

But doesn't the game only update the screen 50/60 times a second? It still processes it at X rate regardless of the region?

 

[daan]

But doesn't the game only update the screen 50/60 times a second? It still processes it at X rate regardless of the region?

That's what I think. The internal clock speed of the PS2 is the same irrespective of region.

 

[hOt6o4bOi]

wish i could try PAL ~ because that is the only way we can figure out the advantage right now

but i have to tell you, the fast right leading upto the straight im having barely no tire squel ~ and smoothness all the way upto the hairpin b4 t1 is a big difference

~ i must say Dan's and my driving styles are on total polar opposites

i like to be smooth as possible, and Dan is ballstothewall tire squels, tire smoke, occasional grass... hehe

but on all combo's we have done, i doubt we have ever been more then .2 apart

so for me to be a full second ahead on the final lap times is kinda Insane~

~im using 3rd gear first corner with a nice drift, and the 2nd hairpin ive been doing really crazy

sometimes ive been a length behind my ghost and still exited the corner a car length ahead when i was doing 31.850's around there

but what can i say, i dont know the difference between PAL and NTCS

when i was in Paris, i did feel minor differences tho

 

[Metar]

Yes, Sony couldn't allow themselves to change the actual clock for the regions, so after all, the internals work out more or less the same...

 

[Ren-Tec]

This is what i got so far but im loosing lots of time by over braking and not using the right line yet. So time still to come yet, i hope

T1: 32.978
T2: 1'04.325

 

[AngelCreator]

Angel, what's TDU?

Test Drive Unlimited, I have it for XBox 360. I have to say it's alot of fun,
has alot of cool cars and you can drive any where on the island of Oahu.

 

[ßen]

I can completely say with total confidence here, that Dan/holl01's lap is incredibly smooth 👍 .
It just is

 

[NielsG]

Great times in Div 2 this week. Especially from Kyle and Ben. 👍


My second session gave:

32.531
1'03.597

Unfortunately I don't think I'll have time for more runs this week.

 

[ßen]

Thanks NielsG, shame about not having any more time to run on this though.
I'm gonna have a go now myslef .

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

T1: 33.337
T2: 1'04.602


My last runs before I'm gonna submit the lap 👍

 

[ßen]

New splits, I'm very very happy with these, but I still feel another .3 in it for me yet 👍

T1 - 32.259
T2 - 1'02.759 👍 👍

 

[holl01]

wish i could try PAL ~ because that is the only way we can figure out the advantage right now

but i have to tell you, the fast right leading upto the straight im having barely no tire squel ~ and smoothness all the way upto the hairpin b4 t1 is a big difference

~ i must say Dan's and my driving styles are on total polar opposites

i like to be smooth as possible, and Dan is ballstothewall tire squels, tire smoke, occasional grass... hehe

but on all combo's we have done, i doubt we have ever been more then .2 apart

so for me to be a full second ahead on the final lap times is kinda Insane~

~im using 3rd gear first corner with a nice drift, and the 2nd hairpin ive been doing really crazy

sometimes ive been a length behind my ghost and still exited the corner a car length ahead when i was doing 31.850's around there

but what can i say, i dont know the difference between PAL and NTCS

when i was in Paris, i did feel minor differences tho

yeah, but just take alook at sphinx's pictures, the speed difference is some 8km/h, which a hell of a lot of time u gain on each straight.

 

[ßen]

No new splits, infact they are identical nearly, but my lap time has just improved by another .2 seconds 👍

 

[Lightning]

Or this could be the reason:

NTSC

PAL

What are the speeds compared coming out of the corner leading to that point?

If we could see the difference there, we can figure out if it happens to do with the 'out of corner' scenario with the car wanting to be more smooth.

In fact, what is the Oreca's powerband?

Are you guys running to redline?

Remember my formula from above.

Vipers generally (even in race trim) make excellent power from 2000-6000 RPMS. When the RPMs climb above that, they usually have a drop in power.

If you guys are running to redline when you shift, this maybe in fact due to the fact their is a major 'power dropoff' somewhere between 6000-whatever RPM you are revving to.

If this is the case, I would suggest people try 'early' shifting and see if they get any better times, because this could very well be the case where NTSC is getting that speed advantage.

And it would happen to be exactly what I was saying earlier in the thread.

Consider this as well, when NTSC would have a 'spike drop' from tire squeal, etc..... It has more frames to be in that, which could be a bonus or a penalty, it just depends.

Where a PAL version's spikes could hurt it in the manner that it could spend 'more time' in a slide because the lack of an update in input.

There are too many factors to be sure, I'm just trying to put as much 'factual' data from the differences as I can.

That 5 mph difference is quite a difference.

In fact, this might be more evidence to the fact that the differences are so great that the divisions might be considered being split, if more 'major differences' like this are found to be in the game.

But, to be HONESTLY FAIR, look at the positions of each frame their, they are not in the EXACT same position.

Whether this is due to one being a little farther over than the other or not, they are in a 'close' relative position but not exact.

If you want to see what I mean, look at the tower near the track indicator. They are not in the same position.

I just noticed something.

Look at the tower, it appears as if NTSC has gone farther.

But if you look at the 'shadow' or 'tire marks' on the track, notice it's position compared to the 3 on the tachometer.

(Heck, look at the difference between the tire marks and the gear indicator)

And how the MOTUL sign on the right appears to be more 'passed' on NTSC than it does PAL.

This proves that even the 'modeling scale' for the versions is different as well probably.

This would support my point even more that the games are not equal.

According to this, it appears as if the PAL version has gone farther.

And the tower on the right seems to be closer on PAL. (And NTSC seems to be closer in another manner)

On NTSC the tower appears to be bigger, yet compared to PAL is more left. This to the eye is deceiving, because if the NTSC tower is supposed to be closer, it should be seen more to the right than the PAL version is. This is very WEIRD.

This appears to be showing that PAL has a smaller 'model scale' than NTSC does. Which completely throws off the chance of them being compared equally.

This PROVES the games are not equal.

Estimated RPMS show around 6490 for PAL at the 174 MPH (255.2 feet per second), and 6676 for NTSC for the 179 mph. (262.533 feet per second)

A difference of 186 RPMS between the two versions.

Given the same distance, to accelerate from around let's say - 130 mph to the speeds they are....

Assume I don't know, 1/2 a mile.

Ok, gain of 49 and 44 mph respectively.

Over the course of that half a mile, the NTSC version gained a mph every 53.877 and the PAL version every 60 feet.

And each MPH in difference translates to 1.466666667 feet per second.

The 'acceleration' of the NTSC is 97.9995 feet per hour.

The acceleration of the PAL is 87.999995 feet per hour.

With an accleration factor difference of 10 per hour, 10 feet per hour in 'acceleration' alone, means that the NTSC version here is gaining 'in acceleration alone' 10 feet per hour better than the PAL version. (This has nothing to do with speed per hour, this is 'acceleration factor' alone)

130 mph is 190.666667 feet per second.

Curious, can anyone post a 'rough' powerband of the Oreca between 5800 - 6800 RPMs? I am curious.

 

[Jake]

new splits:

32.187
1'03.298

These don't show much on the board but I was happy to see another .2 at the line. I'm happy with T1 but I keep messing up somewhere in the tunnel before T2. Any suggestions on the line and braking through there?

 

[holl01]

in future lighning, although i read ur above post, i found it very uncomfortable and crap to read, cos it wasnt structured well, use paragraphs, they are quite common u know.

i am of the belief that the ntsc version has some sort of hidden aids built in to it to make it slightly easier to drive, like as if an asm understeer aid set to 1 is built in to the arcade cars. that would explain why hotboi drives 'smoother' than me cos he doesnt get the same tire screeching as pal does as the hidden aids would supress this and enable more speed to be carried during a corner, this would explain some of the T1's hotboi had been killin me by a sizeable chunk, particularly in gc cup at grand valley, 2 corners there in that sector, and i couldnt even get within .15 of his best T1, after many hours (5 or 6 all up). ron suggested this to me since he said he tried 6 or 7 combos and found all of them to have differences, each combo with different sorts of cars aswell. i seriously hope they remove this next gt game

 

[Lightning]

in future lighning, although i read ur above post, i found it very uncomfortable and crap to read, cos it wasnt structured well, use paragraphs, they are quite common u know.

i am of the belief that the ntsc version has some sort of hidden aids built in to it to make it slightly easier to drive, like as if an asm understeer aid set to 1 is built in to the arcade cars. that would explain why hotboi drives 'smoother' than me cos he doesnt get the same tire screeching as pal does as the hidden aids would supress this and enable more speed to be carried during a corner, this would explain some of the T1's hotboi had been killin me by a sizeable chunk, particularly in gc cup at grand valley, 2 corners there in that sector, and i couldnt even get within .15 of his best T1, after many hours (5 or 6 all up). ron suggested this to me since he said he tried 6 or 7 combos and found all of them to have differences, each combo with different sorts of cars aswell. i seriously hope they remove this next gt game

Their is no hidden 'aids' to make NTSC drive 'smoother' holl01.

You can be 'wreckless' on the NTSC version as well. It happens to be the inputs, it's simple math.

Do not try to argue with mathematics because you will lose every time. You cannot argue simple mathematical equations. The fact that they sample at different rates holl01, the 'input timing' is the issue, it's for sure.

And even though I know you are not an American and English is not your best language, I have noticed your post has spelling errors in your post. Please do not 'chastize' my writing which DOES have structure - (you happened to read it in between edits before I moved some text back to where it should be) you should consider the fact that you yourself do not have the 'best english'. Consider that before making a post like that the next time, please.

 

[ßen]

I'll point out that holl01 is Australian, and English is his first language. I could be extra picky with errors in your post Lightning, but it isn't the way to go, or the way I want to be.
Just stating facts.

Their is no hidden 'aids' to make NTSC drive 'smoother' holl01.

You can be 'wreckless'on the NTSC version as well. It happens to be the inputs, it's simple math.

Do not try to argue with mathematics because you will lose every time. You cannot argue simple mathematical equations. The fact that they sample at different rates holl01, the 'input timing' is the issue, it's for sure.

And even though I know you are not an American and English is not your best language, I have noticed your post has spelling errors in your post. Please do not 'chastize' my writing which DOES have structure - (you happened to read it in between edits before I moved some text back to where it should be) you should consider the fact that you yourself do not have the 'best english'. Consider that before making a post like that the next time, please.

 

[Mr P]

@ James! Do you have both versions of this game? because until you drive both versions and find out that way ... you can put up mathematical theories all night long but you still wont know jack sheet about the difference

Get some other guys splattered around the different forums that may have both versions and get opinions from them also ... You need to play both versions to feel the difference is all I can say on this ... and as I said to Dan! the NTSC cars feel like they have a hidden assist on to prevent tyre screech and hence they go faster.

And I agree with Dan .. your posts are of epic proportions and the text is splattered on the page like pebbledash ... makes for a very long painful read 👎

 

[Lightning]

I'll point out that holl01 is Australian, and English is his first language. I could be extra picky with errors in your posts Lightning, but it isn't the way to go, or the way I want to be.
Just stating facts.

Yes, I know this myself Ben.

I find myself trying to type fast sometimes, and I make 'spelling mistakes' with a missed keystroke here and there.

But that's exactly my point - holl01 did not have to make a 'small attack' with a reference to what he said just because he did not agree with me. I just responded when he did that. That's all. And I'm glad you feel the way you do.

I am not trying to start 'arguments' or anything, I'm just putting up there the data that can be collected. I'm pointing out mathematical equations that can support the differences and by the 'human' eye in those pictures, the obvious differences there. Those are facts that we can see. The difference between what I am saying and what holl01 and some others are saying is that what I am saying can be proved, and what he said cannot. (That is unless you have access to the source code)

To be completely honest, it just seems as more a 'baiting tactic' to try and start an argument. It seems to me that is a bit of 'jealousy' on their behalf, because they are not the ones posting these 'mathematical' simple equations that could explain the differences. I honestly believe that's exactly what it is. And that to me just says something. I am not here to make enemies, or make others feel 'uncomfortable'. I believe the true reason why he said this is because he actually feels a little 'jealous' of the factual data that I am posting, which is probably the truth.

But with that, I'm not going to go any further with that, just stating the obvious.

You can take what I said how I intended it with the factual data, or you can get ticked off and and refuse to acknowlege it. That's your reaction and not mine. I do not intend to tick anyone off, I am just trying to show that there are major differences in the game, that is all.

 

[ßen]

Ok. I understand your points Lightning, and I appreciate them 👍 .
I don't want an argument, but I'm just stating my opinion on the matter, as you and many others have.
Sorry if I've offended you.

βen

 

[Lightning]

Ok. I understand your points Lightning, and I appreciate them 👍 .
I don't want an argument, but I'm just stating my opinion on the matter, as you and many others have.
Sorry if I've offended you.

βen

You did not offend me at all Ben. And I'm glad you are stating your opinion as well, and it is a well formed one.

The problem I have is with those that ignore factual data and can only see what they believe. They want to believe that the differences are not because of these simple differences that can add up to alot.

And to Mr. P - yes I do know, these differences that you speak of can be explained by the very things that I am talking about. The fact that you stated I do not know squat, shows that you yourself did not get the point. The differences you speak of are what I am trying to explain. I have seen the differences with my own eyes with what people have posted.

Would you prefer that I make hundreds of posts with smaller points? I think the reason why you do not like my long posts is because you think that your opinion is not being heard, because my posts are longer with more explanations of what I am trying to say. Your posts get read as well. You should not feel that my opinion is the only one that's heard. Whether people choose to like what I say more than what you do, or vice versa is completely up to them. Anyone's insecurity about opinions is their problem. People can choose to believe what they want. Being a person who knows how software works, I can give my opinion on the situation with technical insight.

 

[STLbarcelona5]

Sorta kinda not really an improvement. At least as far as splits are concerned, but at least .7xx off at the end.

32.471
1'03.432

 

[Famine]

Alrighty then - can we keep this friendly please? James, holl's first line was merely pointing out that with multiple line breaks, any points you might be making can get lost simply because of your formatting. I'd choose to see this as positive - he wants to help you get your point across better - rather than negative - he's mocking your syntax at the expense of your points. There's little need to turn round and berate him then.

Rest assured that if anyone's post is sufficiently bad to warrant it, a warning for "Lazy Grammar" will be issued by a moderator. This isn't necessary here.


Aaaand... back to the PAL/NTSC discussion.

Or possibly even the race!

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Or possibly even the race!

Amen.

 

[ßen]

Or possibly even the race!

Double amen, another good point well made from our Super Mod Famine.

 

[Metar]

Possibly, or maybe not. I just suck too much this week. Steven (Bigracer) beats me by 3 seconds to the finish-line. So I just enjoy watching...

Lightning - I'm not sure about the theory. As long as you don't have access to the PS2 internals, knowledge in PS2 game-programming for both regions, and of course the GT4 source-code, the whole theory you set up remains - a theory. And it's not "arguing with mathematics" - Mr P/Ron plays both PAL and NTSC, and therefore could tell a difference. Sphinx/Jerry confirmed that in his expirience, the versions are different - Look at the Week 74 results. Jerry posted some NTSC replays of the Caterham, even though he ran PAL most of the week. Result: NTSC is much faster, for him, by quite a margin. And, if Holl01 and Ron are corrent, and some wheel-spin mechanism is different, then it's totally logical that it will appear on the Caterham, the car where spinning it is easier than driving it. I dunno why it's so different in the Viper Oreca, though, since the Oreca, on R4s, almost doesn't wheelspin at all. But, as Curtis/hotboyspellitasyouwish stated, the car barely spins a tyre during the last corner - where just a little spin reduces the time by quite a margin.
And I don't really think Holl01 tried to start a fight because he was jealous of your theory... He's not that type of guy.

And Amen, let's race on.

 

[Sphinx]

Sphinx heads to the Test Course for some straight line speed tests.

 

[ßen]

Good idea Jerry, this should answer some questions 👍