GT5 Sound Thread

[PAPPACLART]

We'll see in the final GT5 build. I have a feeling things will be drasticly different. Even in GT4, who most people say is under steer city, even myself initially, after getting further into the game with a wheel and no aids, I've changed my voice. All the cars handle differently, even cars with the same size, drive train and power.

The Monaro for example is wonderful in GT4, quite neutral, with very predictable and controllable drifts out of turns with N2 tyres. Try the same with a Ford GT and that thing snaps into a spin. Do the same with a M Coupe and its fish tail into a spin.
The Subaru 22B feels different to the Evo 6, even though both are rally bred 4WD cars with similar size, power and weight

I have to agree with you. One Area where the GT series stand above all (IMO) is that all the cars have a unique feel.

Anyway, back to sound!! When the hell are we going to get some decent footage/sound of some hot cars in a final build of GT5?

 

[eSZee]

When the hell are we going to get some decent footage/sound of some hot cars in a final build of GT5?

when the game comes out.

 

[SrRd RacinG]

The going rate for new GT5 footage on the streets is like $100.00/second. Ridiculous.

 

[PAPPACLART]

when the game comes out.

Looks that way!!

The going rate for new GT5 footage on the streets is like $100.00/second. Ridiculous.

I'll raise you!!!

 

[Seismica]

The TT demo is too snappy. The 370z (stock) is apparently very forgiving.

The sounds have come a long way. SrRd RacinG is right, we need some more footage. PD has obviously come a long way in the past 6 months or so. However, we have very little quality footage of the demos, and official trailers seem to have dubbed sound.

We need a proper ingame video straight from Polyphony Digital.

 

[SrRd RacinG]

The TT demo is too snappy. The 370z (stock) is apparently very forgiving.

The sounds have come a long way. SrRd RacinG is right, we need some more footage. PD has obviously come a long way in the past 6 months or so. However, we have very little quality footage of the demos, and official trailers seem to have dubbed sound.

We need a proper ingame video straight from Polyphony Digital.

Yes, they have. I remember the TGS interview with IGN when Kazunori stated how far they got with the damage in only 2 months. So you can only imagine what 5 more months can do!

 

[CoolColJ]

Just listen to the idle of the SuperGT GT-R in this thread
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=126026

That's some real race car audio there! High'ish RPM idle, deep, loud resonant sound.
When was the last time you could hear an idle that loud in a GT game or any game for that matter???

Also I'm really impressed with the collision physics and movement, very realistic

 

[SrRd RacinG]

It's hard to hear perfeclty, but you can tell our ears will have much to enjoy this time around. Sound is such an underrated aspect of gaming. And I don't think we'll be failed this time.

 

[CoolColJ]

Real Super GT GT-R . Idle at the start and low RPM reving. 3.5L NA V8


Jump to 2:15 to compare. The idle and low RPM sounds exact!
This guy is moving through the revs very slowly near the redline in some parts of the video. Makes it easy to compare to a real interior video if I can find one with clear sound



edit - Found an interior sound video - at 4:25.
At the start in another similar GT-R, followed by Toms SC430
Again the sounds are similar! PD have done well... if all 1000 cars are like this...

 

[Seismica]

Real Super GT GT-R . Idle at the start and low RPM reving. 3.5L NA V8
[ YOUTUBE]bJAGjJojHUA[/media]

Jump to 2:15 to compare. The idle and low RPM sounds exact!
This guy is moving through the revs very slowly near the redline in some parts of the video. Makes it easy to compare to a real interior video if I can find one with clear sound
[ YOUTUBE]T-syu-vHAf4[/media]


edit - Found an interior sound video - at 4:25.
At the start in another similar GT-R, followed by Toms SC430
Again the sounds are similar! PD have done well... if all 1000 cars are like this...

[ YOUTUBE]CH8JHz60mR8[/media]

But the raw samples at low RPMs have always been close to real life. Its the higher RPMs that have always been lacking. To be honest, in racing, the higher RPMs is where your going to be most of the time They are a lot better than Prologue and GT4 were though, which is very encouraging. My only worry is, they have not put the effort in for every car, only for a handful of new cars. I certainly hope they haven't recycled sound samples straight from GT4. Thats if the raw samples for these cars were recorded differently to previous games. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

[SrRd RacinG]

After 5 years and 2 months of work, I expect 3D sound!

 

[CoolColJ]

But the raw samples at low RPMs have always been close to real life. Its the higher RPMs that have always been lacking. To be honest, in racing, the higher RPMs is where your going to be most of the time They are a lot better than Prologue and GT4 were though, which is very encouraging. My only worry is, they have not put the effort in for every car, only for a handful of new cars. I certainly hope they haven't recycled sound samples straight from GT4. Thats if the raw samples for these cars were recorded differently to previous games. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

But didn't the high RPM sound good to you? They did to me, just like in the real vid, and even the low RPM and idle sounds way better than anything I've heard in GT4, and even GT5

People rag on the PD's work with sound in the older GTs, but IMO it was more due to the limitations of the platform they were working with. I mean the PS2 did have 16 megs total including video ram...

Now that they have more memory and CPU grunt to work with, lets see what they can do. Although 256 megs for system ram isn't a whole lot compared to PCs

 

[Seismica]

But didn't the high RPM sound good to you? They did to me,just like in the real vid, and even the low RPM and idle sounds way better than anything I've heard in GT4, and even GT5

They do sound better, but as many have said before me, the high RPM sounds are still a little plain. They're not quite there yet. I know the sounds have improved, but I can't help but think further improvements can be made. (Or we could get a higher quality, on-screen video, so we can be sure either way)

The possibility some cars will sound more life-like than others is a concern.

My personal view is, they're good enough. Just release the game already!

 

[Raitziger]

lol, how did this go from a sound thread to a physics discussion

There was physics comments in videos

 

[CoolColJ]

They do sound better, but as many have said before me, the high RPM sounds are still a little plain. They're not quite there yet. I know the sounds have improved, but I can't help but think further improvements can be made. (Or we could get a higher quality, on-screen video, so we can be sure either way)

The possibility some cars will sound more life-like than others is a concern.

My personal view is, they're good enough. Just release the game already!

I made a nice litttle audio comparison

GT5 (recorded through a TV) vs Real and then back to GT5 again
I think that's pretty close and darn good for a video game as far as the top end goes!
Considering its a TV output in a noisey room vs a bass light crappy slightly distorted mic recording of a real car

That tells me PD went up to the real car and recorded it under load - how we don't know, but it's not a free standing rev that's for sure!
Even the way it sounds when the revs drop back down after each gear change sounds pretty similar, it's just missing that little warble

attached

 

[Bekimche]

cool, but GT5 is still missing that..."in your face, larger than life" sound from the engine. The kind of sound that will give you goosebumps and make you scared to drive the car lol. But then again, can't tell from those recordings, gotta wait til it's released.

 

[CoolColJ]

cool, but GT5 is still missing that..."in your face, larger than life" sound from the engine. The kind of sound that will give you goosebumps and make you scared to drive the car lol. But then again, can't tell from those recordings, gotta wait til it's released.

You'll never get that with mics, ever, it's not the same as a human ear dynamic range wise. And after the mics and compressors, and digital audio/game processing (which definitely won't be using 64 bits or more of precision) which weakens the effect some more, it comes out of your speakers, which are even worse for most people, who play it through tiny TV speakers and weak amps.

You only get that in real life

 

[RedBaron]

But the raw samples at low RPMs have always been close to real life. Its the higher RPMs that have always been lacking.

GT has been OK only with mid rpm sound. But they just don't use enough samples to cover all the rpm range. Not only sound from highest rpm are ridiculously fastened and extrapolated from mid range (sometimes with distortion to have some false grunt) but there is clearly missing that wonderful burble of engine when it slowly takes from idle through 1500-2500 rpm. GT has been always underextrapolating the sound from mid range and it sounds exactly like it - dry, slowed down and lifeless. Especially V8 engines are pretty sweet in this range as you can hear around 1:50 in this video. GT will probably never sound like this

 

[CoolColJ]

fixed it for you



So why did the GT5 IS-F sound almost the same as the real thing? Both V8. Stock mind you.

One thing a game will never do properly is all those short sharp jabs of throttle sounds. Games tend to focus on the sustained sounds, because that's all they can realisticly replicate. A real car is much like a musical instrument, they can have infinite permutations in sound.

The only way they have come close to the articulation of a real instrument, is by creating digital models of what happens in a real instrument and turn it into computer code and process the sound in real time with inputs from the player controlling the model, instead of using samples, which are frozen and static. They have gotten fairly close to a real piano doing this, with all the expression you can get.

LFS sorta goes that route, but it's not sophiscated enough, and it requires a lot of CPU grunt to do it well. You'd have to model all the internal parts of the engine, combustion cycle and the exhaust path etc and how the gases flow through the various components and the resonances they pick up etc

 

[RedBaron]

CoolColJ, there would be simple solution for what you are talking about. One layer for sound under load, one layer for cruising sound and the right way to mix them on the fly should be enough for replicating 90% of that "instrument" effect. Yes, that's twice as more as they have been using till now, but it would make day and night difference as you stomp on the gas.

 

[Bekimche]

You'll never get that with mics, ever, it's not the same as a human ear dynamic range wise. And after the mics and compressors, and digital audio/game processing (which definitely won't be using 64 bits or more of precision) which weakens the effect some more, it comes out of your speakers, which are even worse for most people, who play it through tiny TV speakers and weak amps.

You only get that in real life

I understand what you're saying and see your point, but if a little mic from a video camera can capture "that" sound, why can't professional grade mics and sound engineers do it?

For example, this is taken with a video camera, yet captures that "angry" V8 sound from the Aston Martin V8 Vantage...

 

[Griffith500]

After 5 years and 2 months of work, I expect 3D sound!

Eh? GT3 had 3D sound...

You'll never get that with mics, ever, it's not the same as a human ear dynamic range wise. And after the mics and compressors, and digital audio/game processing (which definitely won't be using 64 bits or more of precision) which weakens the effect some more, it comes out of your speakers, which are even worse for most people, who play it through tiny TV speakers and weak amps.

You only get that in real life

Quite right! Here's a standard recording mic, dynamic range of < 120 dB depending on where the noise floor is). The practical limit for most commercial microphones is apparantly around 125 dB - the human ear is typically capable of distinguishing 140 dB - live orchestral music usually sits in an 80 dB range, pop music rarely exceeds 15 dB and can be as low as 1 dB (screw you, compression!!).

32-bit (amplitude) precision equates to just shy of 193 dB - it's more than adequate for music and games. (Formula is 20 log (2^n) with n being number of bits, and logarithm is base-10) The only reason that extra precision of 64-bit would be required is for extra-sonic reproduction, that is, what the sound feels like: ultra high frequencies and real, sub-sonic earth shaking, since they both require serious power to be felt...

Nice! But that's one tuned mofo, I spotted the exhaust manifold and thought "uh-oh" - 750 NA horses is gonna sound fat!

One thing a game will never do properly is all those short sharp jabs of throttle sounds. Games tend to focus on the sustained sounds, because that's all they can realisticly replicate. A real car is much like a musical instrument, they can have infinite permutations in sound.

The only way they have come close to the articulation of a real instrument, is by creating digital models of what happens in a real instrument and turn it into computer code and process the sound in real time with inputs from the player controlling the model, instead of using samples, which are frozen and static. They have gotten fairly close to a real piano doing this, with all the expression you can get.

LFS sorta goes that route, but it's not sophiscated enough, and it requires a lot of CPU grunt to do it well. You'd have to model all the internal parts of the engine, combustion cycle and the exhaust path etc and how the gases flow through the various components and the resonances they pick up etc

You're totally right about the stabs, the recordings are all of "steady-state conditions", give or take a bit of "noise", whilst its the transitions that really give an engine character (in my mind), especially when throttle response improves, as in a race engine.

And the direct synthesis method has many challenges - I'm working on a way to model the noise through the valve ports at the moment, but not really made too much progress my CFD skills vastly outweigh my 3D modeling ability, and that's saying something!!

LFS is half-way sophisticated enough, I'm certain that with a decent pulse sound (which I may be able to stumble across in time, by modeling) it would sound authentic enough.

I understand what you're saying and see your point, but if a little mic from a video camera can capture "that" sound, why can't professional grade mics and sound engineers do it?

For example, this is taken with a video camera, yet captures that "angry" V8 sound from the Aston Martin V8 Vantage...

Lots of high frequency clipping from that poor little mic. Makes it sound like a fire-spitting dragon, but we lose mid and especially low-range definition. 👎

 

[CoolColJ]

I understand what you're saying and see your point, but if a little mic from a video camera can capture "that" sound, why can't professional grade mics and sound engineers do it?

For example, this is taken with a video camera, yet captures that "angry" V8 sound from the Aston Martin V8 Vantage...

Because it's just a recording of an event, not a synthesis of trying to recreate one. Plus they're not going to try and recreate 1000 cars in absolute detail, it's just not worth the time and effort. If it was a simulator of 1 car then, that's different, you can go to town.

Again, you should already know the Gt5 stuff posted is just a recording of something coming from a TV, and the camera/mic is probably placed a fair distance from speaker too

Did you not play the time trial? Did you not hear how close it sounds to the real clips of the car I posted? What more can you ask for? The 370z in real life has a quiet exhaust, and heavily muffled airbox like in all modern cars with driveby noise standards to abide by.

Old carb fed cars don't, and are are pretty loud and rorty. The Aston Martin cars have exhaust bypass valves that open up at 4000 rpm and at idle/low revs. I've heard one in real life trying to park on a slope and it's pretty loud and rumbley. Not really comparable to most modern cars you see on the street in GT5, stock that is.

What we've heard from GT5 sounds like the real things, or similar, I've already posted all the proof, what more can you ask for? Only a fraction of what is in the full game and it hasn't come out yet. Certainly a lot more accurate to the real things than the Hollywood sounds you get from Forza 3

 

[Griffith500]

Nice vid for the purposes of comparison with GT5. It's clear it's a way off on some cars, but it's not the final game. Interesting to see just how loud some of these cars are relative to "normal" cars (that Bentley was very quiet!)



Incidentally, I've discovered that my favourite V8 is the Ferrari-Maserati cross-plane, closely followed by Audi's

Engines per scene:
V12, V10, V8, S4
V8, V8, W12
V12, V12, F12
V12, V10, fpV8, F6, V12, fpV8
V6
V8
fpV8
S6
V6?
V8
V12
V8, V8
V8, V12

I see a pattern...

 

[cb1021]

most of those cars sound like crap. they gut the exhaust system or something? Or is just the camera mic that makes them all sound like fast and furious.

 

[Griffith500]

That's just how modern "supercars" sound... ?
The 599 and the 550 Barchetta sounded fantastic! As did the Gallardo, the 997, the Spyker, that K1 thing, the Alfa, the Cobra, the Vanquish - should I stop?

Granted, it's not the best reproduction I've ever heard, and it's not a patch on actually being there, but it's definitely got the gist of it!

The only car that sounded F&F to me was the Carrera GT.

And, listening to those Dutch kids at the end, the camera seems to have a fairly good stereo mic set-up.

 

[CoolColJ]

that's just the way a tiny mic on a consumer camera will record the sound, even the Aston Martin above sounds really nasally and 1 dimensional compared to the real thing I heard in person. It's like a photo copy of a glossy photo, it's just a rough imitation of the real thing

 

[analog]

that's just the way a tiny mic on a consumer camera will record the sound, even the Aston Martin above sounds really nasally and 1 dimensional compared to the real thing I heard in person. It's like a photo copy of a glossy photo, it's just a rough imitation of the real thing

just like my real life ears.

 

[CoolColJ]

GT5 SLS AMG at Nurb - just remeber it's off TV
There is one part at around the 2:00 mark where he is behind the red AI car, and you can sense the rumbley sound from the car in front
[YOUTUBEHD]P3Jm2wIuPk0[/YOUTUBEHD]

Real life car at Laguna Seca
[YOUTUBEHD]nB_zQlVbxAQ[/YOUTUBEHD]

Edit -

Real car at the ring, not good quality, but the character sounds similar

 

[SrRd RacinG]

Good to know it's sound as ugly as it looks.

In other words, PD has modeled it pretty good!