GT5's Game-Breaking Online Flaw (OP Updated: 11 Feb)

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MGR
I have a theory which may explain the link between the missing replay data and strange physics feeling. And it relates to a post by SuperSic earlier in this thread. Initially I disagreed, but now I think I understand the point SuperSic was trying to make.



It's like those affected by the bug are suffering 'micro-pauses' within their game world. I'll try to explain.

Missing replay data

Earlier in this thread I posted some replay timing data from a bugged replay;

Free-run lap : 2:11.8 (game clock)
2nd flying race lap : 2:17.6 (game clock) - 2:11.6 (replay data)

Around 6 seconds lost.

There seems to be a strong correlation between the amount of lap time lost and the amount of missing replay data based on this example (and other bugged replays I myself and other posters have tested). The time difference in this example is around 4.5%

Working on the assumption that GT5 is running at 60fps (I know it's not solid 60fps but the actual framerate is not really relevant) then the 'stuttering' could be from the game pausing frames 2 or 3 times per second. Tiny pauses of this nature will be detectable to the naked eye - and will be worse if the time difference is something in the realm of 15 seconds like some have been reporting.

The game timer clock continues to run during these 'pauses' but the paused frames are not recorded by the replay data. This would account for the time difference between the game clock in a bugged replay and stopwatch time.

So while your bugged car is pausing 2 or 3 times per second (each pause less than two hundreds of a second) the unaffected car next to you has moved on up the road just a little.

Physics change

I described the change as a loss of grip, power and braking. But now I think I see what SuperSic was getting at regarding our perceptions of speed and grip.

I noted before that the time lost for this example lap was 6 seconds (approximately 4.5%)

Now consider your car is travelling at 100km/h - but the game is 'micro-pausing' 2 or 3 times per second. Because of these added paused frames the driver perceives or 'feels' the car to be travelling slower than it actually is in the physics engine. Because the driver perceives the vehicle to be moving 4.5% slower (say 95.5km/h) than it actually is then they will brake at an appropriate point - based on their perceived (slower) vehicle speed.

However, the car is not travelling at 95.5km/h in the game engine. It's actually travelling at 100km/h and the braking point selected by the driver is too late! Not only that, but now that they've hit the brakes (and the game is still micro-pausing) the car is now taking 4.5% longer (in perceived time by the driver) to pull up for the corner.

Cornering has the same 'slow' feeling. Due to the micro-pauses the car is perceived by the driver to be travelling slower than it should! And relative to the rest of the unaffected cars racing - it IS travelling slower!


This theory would explain:

- The slow lap times
- The framerate stuttering
- The lost replay data
- The perceived loss of grip and power.

This has pretty much been my thinking from the start and why I repeated the question of 'have we ruled out input lag'. However speedy has said there was no frame rate loss for his race. amar212 also says his car was just slow with no obvious signs anything was wrong apart from lap times. Throughout this entire thread people claim the physics are certainly different. Either they are stupid, trolling, or this theory can not be correct. Or maybe there are different bugs being discussed here.
 
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Thinking about it, similar does happen even free run - when you are in a qualifying lap, and another player enters or leaves the track - there is a micro stutter, which will be felt immediately and also is reflected in the lap time.

Not just due to the stutter, but depending on where you are on track when it happens, it'll mess up your rhythm. This happened to me during practice for the RX-7 TC race on Sunday right when I was entering a corner, which completely threw me off and ruined that lap.
 
GT Planet has become (or maybe always been) too positive towards the game, PD and Kaz... maybe they fear posting critics will hurt their relationship. Unfortunetaly it is starting to become less relevant as a news source.

Right now, the forum is a much more reliable source than the news page. But ultimately, if even the good and solid arguments raised in this forum are not adressed by GTPlanet or PD, even the forum can loose its relevance and die.

GTPlanet MUST make sure this issue reaches PD in a PUBLIC way so we keep on trusting it.

There can be a myriad of reasons as to why there hasn't been an acknowledgement of the issues in this thread, the most obvious being that PD hasn't fully been made aware of said issues. And even if they were, there would have to either be focus group or internal testing to reproduce the symptoms we describe to pinpoint what the core issue is, which could take weeks depending on the severity of it. Makes zero sense for an announcement as of yet and there may never even be one if it is fixed prior to the proposed January update.
 
GT Planet has become (or maybe always been) too positive towards the game, PD and Kaz... maybe they fear posting critics will hurt their relationship. Unfortunetaly it is starting to become less relevant as a news source.

Right now, the forum is a much more reliable source than the news page. But ultimately, if even the good and solid arguments raised in this forum are not adressed by GTPlanet or PD, even the forum can loose its relevance and die.

GTPlanet MUST make sure this issue reaches PD in a PUBLIC way so we keep on trusting it.

Disagree. GT Planet is the community. Jordan rarely posts in the GT5 forums, he 'only' provides us with a platform to discuss Gran Turismo. So if anyone is to blame, it's us.
 
+1
It is important to discuss both positive and negative points of something. I would have to imagine that PD is aware of the issues and seems that this forum would be a valuable resource to them with all the "research", testing and experience that everyone has.
 
esh
There can be a myriad of reasons as to why there hasn't been an acknowledgement of the issues in this thread, the most obvious being that PD hasn't fully been made aware of said issues. And even if they were, there would have to either be focus group or internal testing to reproduce the symptoms we describe to pinpoint what the core issue is, which could take weeks depending on the severity of it. Makes zero sense for an announcement as of yet and there may never even be one if it is fixed prior to the proposed January update.

Zero sense for a PD announcement, but perfect sense for a note up in GTPlanet home.

Disagree. GT Planet is the community. Jordan rarely posts in the GT5 forums, he 'only' provides us with a platform to discuss Gran Turismo. So if anyone is to blame, it's us.

We are not talking about Jordan posting in the forum. People raised the question as to why Jordan put a link on the front page to a fairly simple (although useful) tyre evaluation thread and not to this rapidly growing thread with lots of reports of the online gaming being flawed.

It seems to me that he is afraid to raise controversial issues in the front page... cause maybe next time he wont be invited to the SEMA show, or doesnt have the chance ask superficial questions to Kaz in an exclusive interview.
 
What I don't get, is why this thread wasn't advertised in the 'news' section. This is way more important than tire degradation test. The only way for PD to take notice if this becomes a threat to future GT5 sales and this _should_ be publicized on the front page of this web-site.

The great thing about the tire degradation test thread was that it presented clear cut facts after testing.

We need to be able to do the same when communicating this issue. The nature of this issue is such that there are many variables, and a lot of speculation on what may or may not be causing it.

We ARE working toward publicizing this issue, but have some additional work to do before we can be comfortable putting it on the front page.
 
Speculation maybe, but theres clearly a problem right??:indiff:

Speculation definitely, but the problem hasn't been clearly defined with concrete evidence. Some are getting there but much more testing needs to be done in order to replicate the issues with a known process that can be done so by anyone if they follow X, Y, and Z.

Then you make an announcement.
 
esh
Speculation definitely, but the problem hasn't been clearly defined with concrete evidence. Some are getting there but much more testing needs to be done in order to replicate the issues with a known process that can be done so by anyone if the follow X, Y, and Z.

Than you make an announcement.

Exactly.

Could not have said it better myself. 👍
 
EDK
The great thing about the tire degradation test thread was that it presented clear cut facts after testing.

We need to be able to do the same when communicating this issue. The nature of this issue is such that there are many variables, and a lot of speculation on what may or may not be causing it.

We ARE working toward publicizing this issue, but have some additional work to do before we can be comfortable putting it on the front page.

Good to know. Lots of frustration in online leagues/series.
 
We are not talking about Jordan posting in the forum. People raised the question as to why Jordan put a link on the front page to a fairly simple (although useful) tyre evaluation thread and not to this rapidly growing thread with lots of reports of the online gaming being flawed.

It seems to me that he is afraid to raise controversial issues in the front page... cause maybe next time he wont be invited to the SEMA show, or doesnt have the chance ask superficial questions to Kaz in an exclusive interview.

huyler's thread was analysis based on fact. I know there is an issue here as I have experienced it for months but the cause of the issue is nothing more than a guess, not yet fact, as far as I can tell until someone provides the information in a manner I described in my previous post.
 
I don't think any one of us will find the solution or the problem. The main thing that needs to be done is to make sure PD knows about it, so they they can start working on a solution.

We can't do much more than that.
 
EDK
Exactly.

Could not have said it better myself. 👍


Agreed. At this point we know there's a problem but don't know exactly what the problem is, how to replicate it or how to work around it. Therefore there isn't much to report on. "Breaking News: There's a problem - good luck with that."

Problem is, this is very difficult to test since we have such little control over the variables involved and such little access to the necessary data. Right now we're kinda like S.E.T.I., we know we're looking for something that probably exists but we don't know what it is or where to find it.
 
esh
Speculation definitely, but the problem hasn't been clearly defined with concrete evidence. Some are getting there but much more testing needs to be done in order to replicate the issues with a known process that can be done so by anyone if they follow X, Y, and Z.

Then you make an announcement.

Uhm isn't this PD's job? They release the product/updates, we the GT5 player notice there is something wrong, the news page should report that the users are seeing an increased rate of this problem, maybe present a few questions to PD (with some canned response from PD of course). And then it would be up to PD to research this. Maybe get some of those guys that make helmet and race suit designs to actually DO some serious game testing on this stuff before they release to the public.
 
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esh
Speculation definitely, but the problem hasn't been clearly defined with concrete evidence. Some are getting there but much more testing needs to be done in order to replicate the issues with a known process that can be done so by anyone if they follow X, Y, and Z.

Then you make an announcement.

There's just so many variables to sort thru. Thanks to the tech people checking this out.

I'm just glad this discussion has gone beyond the "Your connection sucks-quit complaining!" stage.
 
Uhm isn't this PD's job? They release the product/updates, we the GT5 player notice there is something wrong, the news page should report that the users are seeing an increased rate of this problem, maybe present a few questions to PD (with some caned response from PD of course). And then it would be up to PD to research this. Maybe get some of those guys that make helmet and race suit designs to ACTUALLY do some serious game testing on this stuff before they release to the public.

Right! It is just like a newspaper cant break news that an entire city is in blackout until it finds out the exact powerline that went down, what backup systems did not work and so on... because that would be unfair on the government/power company.

Just report there is a problem, say you are investigating further and make sure the ones responsible for solving it provide an answer/correction!
 
Uhm isn't this PD's job? They release the product/updates, we the GT5 player notice there is something wrong, the news page should report that the users are seeing an increased rate of this problem, maybe present a few questions to PD (with some caned response from PD of course). And then it would be up to PD to research this. Maybe get some of those guys that make helmet and race suit designs to ACTUALLY do some serious game testing on this stuff before they release to the public.

What news page? On the GT blog? GTPlanet? That's not how it works. There is lots of legwork that needs to be done to get to a point where a bug can be induced by any end user. And once you get to that point the developer will listen.
 
It seems to me that he (Jordan) is afraid to raise controversial issues in the front page... cause maybe next time he wont be invited to the SEMA show, or doesnt have the chance ask superficial questions to Kaz in an exclusive interview.

Thank you for the constructive contribution to this thread.
 
Right! It is just like a newspaper cant break news that an entire city is in blackout until it finds out the exact powerline that went down, what backup systems did not work and so on... because that would be unfair on the government/power company.

A 20 page thread on GTPlanet does not include everyone that plays GT5 as you imply.
 
esh
A 20 page thread on GTPlanet does not include everyone that plays GT5 as you imply.

30 pages in 10 days is a HOT topic.

GT5 discs covers come with the phrase "exciting 16-player online race", so I understand it as a MAJOR feature of the game, and one that the most dedicated fans use on a weekly basis. This feature has a HUGE PROBLEM, since everyone is reporting problems with 12+ lobbies and you think it is more relevant to promote on the front page a new company sponsored car that may become available as a future DLC?

Have you seen anyone in this topic test a lobby with more than 12 people and not have any problems!??? The problem is already clearly reported: 12+ LOBBIES LAG AND ARE UNPLAYABLE. Its not up to the user to know the causes.
 
I encoutered a bug last night (actually many times in the past two weeks) but my problem other than the obvious lag n flaws in lap times, etc....I had no start button. Meaning when I hit start to pause and exit it would not do anything. This was frustrating because the server crashed and I couldn't exit the race to rejoin my group.
 
+1 If there is a problem with your central heating at home do you find out what the problem is and the cause?? No you just ring the plumber to come fix it. Its not our job to identify the root cause, just to find a problem, PD should listen to us, should we be given a voice, and then do all they can to help.

EDIT; Sorry it shows all my post as a quote
 
I'm in the camp that say "Bring the problem out in the open and let PD find the cause of it." There are enough reputable posters on here experiencing it that I definitely believe it to be true. Why is it up to the GT community to figure out all the variables and possible causes. Let PD Do that. They are suppose to be the experts
 
EDK
The great thing about the tire degradation test thread was that it presented clear cut facts after testing.

We need to be able to do the same when communicating this issue. The nature of this issue is such that there are many variables, and a lot of speculation on what may or may not be causing it.

We ARE working toward publicizing this issue, but have some additional work to do before we can be comfortable putting it on the front page.
A good point.

I don't think any one of us will find the solution or the problem. The main thing that needs to be done is to make sure PD knows about it, so they they can start working on a solution.

We can't do much more than that.
But this.
I don't feel it's our responsibility to figure everything out for PD.

It would help, if it's even possible for players to decode the issue, but PD could most likely figure this out much easier then us, I would think.
 
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