GT5's Game-Breaking Online Flaw (OP Updated: 11 Feb)

  • Thread starter MGR
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esh
Speculation definitely, but the problem hasn't been clearly defined with concrete evidence. Some are getting there but much more testing needs to be done in order to replicate the issues with a known process that can be done so by anyone if they follow X, Y, and Z.

Then you make an announcement.
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How to replicate, open a lobby, get 16 people in a race, start race.

As a community I don't think we have the tools available to really debug this case, this is far beyond tire wear. Polyphony certainly has the tools (debug consoles, development tools, profiling) and the knowledge (free run vs race net code differences) etc.

I really just hope they are aware.
 
Rodrigo was talking about GTPlanet making an announcement about this thread and it's findings but I mentioned that it wouldn't be prudent as it is still just a speculative discussion UNLESS a process is discovered that induces the bug IN A SPECIFIC MANNER for any end user. Then it would make sense to go public with an announcement. If no process is discovered then no need for an announcement. Do you think that's the only way PD would find out about our issues?

You guys are talking about finding a root cause and/or solution, which I agree is PD's job, but not sure what that has to do with what was being discussed here.

Edit: Final response in here about semantics as to not derail it any further. Also note that Jordan was browsing the thread not too long ago. Maybe something will end up on the front page after all.
 
Mods is it possible to get the subject of this thread changed to something a little less sensational and more related to the issue?

12+ player races lag and are unplayable
 
esh
Rodrigo was talking about GTPlanet making an announcement about this thread and it's findings but I mentioned that it wouldn't be prudent as it is still just a speculative discussion UNLESS a process is discovered that induces the bug IN A SPECIFIC MANNER for any end user. Then it would make sense to go public with an announcement.

You guys are talking about finding a solution, which I agree is PD's job, but not sure what that has to do with what was being discussed here.
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For any end user????
Are you, in essence, saying 'screw wheel users' if no DS3 user can be induced to have a lag?
There's something wrong with this game. PD should be made aware. If GTP admins want to run a test race with only them participating, logging every network packet and dumping all the data to PD before making an announcement - it's perfectly fine. Saying that all is 'speculation' is just gonna annoy people here.
 
Question: If you bought a pair of jeans from a shop for 80 pounds and got them home only to find one of the legs was missing, would you take them back to the shop and ask them to replace them? Or would you try to fix them yourself?
 
"Online gaming community having serious connectivity issues"
Story lines following giving details on the issues the community is having.

News. ;)
 
esh
Rodrigo was talking about GTPlanet making an announcement about this thread and it's findings but I mentioned that it wouldn't be prudent as it is still just a speculative discussion UNLESS a process is discovered that induces the bug IN A SPECIFIC MANNER for any end user. Then it would make sense to go public with an announcement. If no process is discovered then no need for an announcement. Do you think that's the only way PD would find out about our issues?

You guys are talking about finding a root cause and/or solution, which I agree is PD's job, but not sure what that has to do with what was being discussed here.

Edit: Final response in here about semantics as to not derail it any further. Also note that Jordan was browsing the thread not too long ago. Maybe something will end up on the front page after all.
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I disagree with your use of the word speculative. In research there is proof that is absolute. You do X and Y happens. You can nail it down easily and you can design an experiment to show it easily. There is also evidence that is made up of numerous observational reports that alone have very little validity. However when there are numerous reports all showing the same observational data the evidence becomes overwhelming. That is what I see here in this thread. This thread alone can be taken as evidence that a problem exists. This issue has gone way past the stage of speculation.
 
GTP_FastM3
I disagree with your use of the word speculative. In research there is proof that is absolute. You do X and Y happens. You can nail it down easily and you can design an experiment to show it easily. There is also evidence that is made up of numerous observational reports that alone have very little validity. However when there are numerous reports all showing the same observational data the evidence becomes overwhelming. That is what I see here in this thread. This thread alone can be taken as evidence that a problem exists. This issue has gone way past the stage of speculation.
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This.
The remaining speculation is simply the cause, nothing more.
I'm not sure how it can even be decoded by anyone on this site, despite some of the very knowledgeable people we have here.
It could be done much easier by PD with access to all the information needed, without jumping through the hoops we have to.

We know it's existed since before the PSN outage, but was so rare almost nobody knew about it.
We know it has progressively gotten worse since then, to the point where seemingly anyone can replicate it now, simply by making a room filled with 12 or more drivers on the track.

The rest of the details and the exact cause are the source of speculation.
 
dsgerbc
What I don't get, is why this thread wasn't advertised in the 'news' section. This is way more important than tire degradation test. The only way for PD to take notice if this becomes a threat to future GT5 sales and this _should_ be publicized on the front page of this web-site.
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RodrigoDLL
GT Planet has become (or maybe always been) too positive towards the game, PD and Kaz... maybe they fear posting critics will hurt their relationship. Unfortunetaly it is starting to become less relevant as a news source.

GTPlanet MUST make sure this issue reaches PD in a PUBLIC way so we keep on trusting it.
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RodrigoDLL
We are not talking about Jordan posting in the forum. People raised the question as to why Jordan put a link on the front page to a fairly simple (although useful) tyre evaluation thread and not to this rapidly growing thread with lots of reports of the online gaming being flawed.

It seems to me that he is afraid to raise controversial issues in the front page... cause maybe next time he wont be invited to the SEMA show, or doesnt have the chance ask superficial questions to Kaz in an exclusive interview.
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What I don't get is why both of you have assumed that it isn't going to be, nor why you assume that personally insulting me or my work will encourage me to do what you want. I also don't understand why you, Rodrigo, are so adamant about featuring this bug on a blog you consider so irrelevant.

Before continuing, though, let's take a look at a few things that you're ignoring, either by convenience or - hopefully, for your character's sake - ignorance.

  • The overwhelming majority of bugs, ranging in severity, have been discussed exclusively in the forums, and an overwhelming number of them have been resolved without any mention whatsoever on the News blog. A blog post is clearly not a pre-requisite to resolution of an issue; a fact that's directly supported by what I've been told privately by an SCEA/PD employee.
  • The blog collects and reports news about a wildly successful video game franchise. Unsurprisingly, the majority of that news is going to be 'positive'. That said, here's just a sampling of 'negative' stories I've posted about, which I strongly doubt Sony, Polyphony Digital, or Kazunori Yamauchi were particularly excited or proud of:
  • Despite your outrage at not seeing this on the blog yet, not one of you has sent me a private message or an email about it. I saw the thread when it was originally posted, but dismissed it as one of the usual mis-informed complaints about lag. Only yesterday, did one person attempt to update me on the growing severity of this bug.
RodrigoDLL
Right now, the forum is a much more reliable source than the news page. But ultimately, if even the good and solid arguments raised in this forum are not adressed by GTPlanet or PD, even the forum can loose its relevance and die.
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The forum has and always will be several steps ahead of any blog, because thousands of people constantly contribute to it, every hour of every day. There is no way I can possibly 'compete' with that, and I don't try to. If you're closely monitoring these forums all day, I'll be the first to tell you that you don't need to read the blog. For the rest of the site's more casual visitors, I hope they find it useful.

I created GTPlanet's blog to analyze, digest, and present the most notable information from the forums in a simple, chronological way - something I could be doing right now, were I not spending time here defending my character and my reputation. If you have any constructive feedback about what you'd like to see more of on the blog - other than complaints and malcontent - I would appreciate if you shared it with me.

When (not if) this complex and confusing bug is posted on the blog, it will be presented in a concise, precise, organized, and easy-to-understand format, backed by as much hard data and evidence as is available. Meanwhile, you can all help by continuing to gather and share as much relevant data as possible.
 
Jordan with all due respect I did PM u about it, maybee 3 days ago. I understand if u didn't see it, you must get loads, but I defo sent it. Would you like me to send it again or post it here so you can read it?
 
Jordan
Despite your outrage at not seeing this on the blog yet, not one of you has sent me a private message or an email about it.
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I guess we are just too polite to annoy you with this and that :)

Thank you very much for feedback!
 
Jordan
Despite your outrage at not seeing this on the blog yet, not one of you has sent me a private message or an email about it. I saw the thread when it was originally posted, but dismissed it as one of the usual mis-informed complaints about lag. Only yesterday, did one person attempt to update me on the growing severity of this bug.
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I would have thought that was the first thing everyone did?
It would be hard for PD to not notice this by now.
 
nealcropper
Jordan with all due respect I did PM u about it, maybee 3 days ago. I understand if u didn't see it, you must get loads, but I defo sent it. Would you like me to send it again or post it here so you can read it?
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This is specifically why I didn't, to be honest. It was said to be done. Maybe people send these less then I expected after all. :confused:

Guess it would be good to return to topic and try to figure anything more we can out now though.:)
 
Sigh...stopped posting in this thread for this very reason... ^^

Its a shame these threads almost always end up like this...95% of all who contributed to solve/dedect/analyse this bug in this thread are real GT fans,and more importantly maybe, GTPlanet fans!!!

But there always seem to be several who don't really think before they write something.

I really do understand the frustration about this bug,i feel it too,but when a thread is so constructive and meaningfull ,and then some are only here to either doubt the intelligence of the ones who are vey seriously trying to determine whats wrong ,or the ones who make this incredible forum possible in the first place ,i really take 6 steps back... :grumpy:

Reading some of the posts of the last 10 pages(and some before this...)i don't understand how some of you(again a minoraty!!)are thinking...

Do you really think PD don't take notice of any problems??
Do you really think Jordan or any moderators are not aware of this thread?
Do you really think that PD wants these bugs to happen,and are not working on how to solve them...knowing they have solved many many problems in the past??...




I don't know,maybe i am over reacting here,but sometimes i am very doubtfull about the purpose of why some people post here at all... is it because they want to have the last word,want to be the one that is right,think they are smarter than all others,having a laugh... :ill:

Like my long gone but wise grandfather always said to me:

The one who persists always wins!!!..

Make of that what you want to make of it....





Spy.
 
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nealcropper
Jordan with all due respect I did PM u about it, maybee 3 days ago. I understand if u didn't see it, you must get loads, but I defo sent it. Would you like me to send it again or post it here so you can read it?
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I know, your single message is the one I was referring to.

My point was directed to a select few other participants in this thread, who - instead of simply asking me if I was going to post about this issue - attempted to insult me by suggesting I was intentionally ignoring it to somehow 'protect' the franchise.
 
I have a usable (but loud) switch at home, now. Just need time (always at a premium) and victims, which I will get on the weekend. I will definitely be taking you up on that offer, Cicua, but start without me if you can - I certainly can't bring my PS3 to the only 5ms 100/100 fiber I have available!

It will be difficult to show anything entirely conclusive with it, as he and others have said - the best we can hope for is showing large changes under obviously lagged conditions (to either bandwidth use or the relative timing of outgoing and incoming packets). It needs to be done without mics, preferably, though that could be thrown in later.

Great graph, griffinz. I know I won't be able to use Cacti or much SNMP/MIB stuff at home too easily.

In any case, we have one easily verifiable factual symptom to point to so far: the replay timing/stopwatch difference. Clear bug, or at least evidence of one (if not more). That was reported by jon- before 2.02, too, IIRC.

I don't know that I'd rule out input lag during framerate drop, at least as far as causing perceived handling differences - I certainly didn't before.

However, it might also affect others in the race whether an individual driver is seeing it or not (timing, replay coherence, causing issues with netcode, whatever), and depending to the extent it (or indeed network problems) are occurring.

Correlation might not be causation, but it can be a clue.

EDIT: Question I asked earlier... has anybody seen this issue with Karts?
 
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Jordan
What I don't get is why both of you have assumed that it isn't going to be, nor why you assume that personally insulting me or my work will encourage me to do what you want. I also don't understand why you, Rodrigo, are so adamant about featuring this bug on a blog you consider so irrelevant.

Before continuing, though, let's take a look at a few things that you're ignoring, either by convenience or - hopefully, for your character's sake - ignorance.

[*]Despite your outrage at not seeing this on the blog yet, not one of you has sent me a private message or an email about it. I saw the thread when it was originally posted, but dismissed it as one of the usual mis-informed complaints about lag. Only yesterday, did one person attempt to update me on the growing severity of this bug.
l.

I created GTPlanet's blog to analyze, digest, and present the most notable information from the forums in a simple, chronological way - something I could be doing right now, were I not spending time here defending my character and my reputation. If you have any constructive feedback about what you'd like to see more of on the blog - other than complaints and malcontent - I would appreciate if you shared it with me.

When (not if) this complex and confusing bug is posted on the blog, it will be presented in a concise, precise, organized, and easy-to-understand format, backed by as much hard data and evidence as is available. Meanwhile, you can all help by continuing to gather and share as much relevant data as possible.
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I would like to put my hands up and say sorry for the personal attacks. I was taken by the complete lack of customer feedback given by PD on this and other crucial issues in the past, their choice to remain silent and just feed speculation. I was under the impression that this being a very hot topic on the forum and getting no attention from you was a sign of gtplanet making the same choices, actually helping PD to keep speculation going while being defended by fanboys in the forum. I am glad it is not the case. Please dont go their way, for me it is the only way for this site to remain a trusted source for GT5 content.

You took the rage I was supposed to have aimed at Sony and PD for their closed way of dealing with customers who pay a lot to support their business. I also was under the impression from other messages that gtp staff was already aware of the issue, so I sent you no direct message. Sorry and thanks for the help.

I have a race for my online league tomorrow, hopefully we have no problems... will report later to add more data to the topic.
 
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I appreciate your apology, Rodrigo. Now that these concerns about the blog are out of the way, hopefully this thread can return to sharing information about the problem. I'll be referencing useful posts in this thread, so please, everyone, share what data you have.
 
So just to be clear, there are two common problems? Grip reduction/weird physics etc and the frozen black screen with the grey GT5 logo in the bottom right hand corner of the screen?
I came here looking for info on the frozen black screen as i rarely use gt online (no one is clean so it is not fun to be punted/blocked) and this affected me 9 times out of 10 last night. Frustrating for sure.
 
premhz
So just to be clear, there are two common problems? Grip reduction/weird physics etc and the frozen black screen with the grey GT5 logo in the bottom right hand corner of the screen?
I came here looking for info on the frozen black screen as i rarely use gt online (no one is clean so it is not fun to be punted/blocked) and this affected me 9 times out of 10 last night. Frustrating for sure.
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Unfortunately the blackscreen issue is more likely not related then it is related, as far as I know.
I get them occasionally, but within a few seconds it picks up, always by the race start.
It could be related, I'm just not sure that it is.
 
It just sits there frozen for upto 5mins and i can hear peoples mics but thats all. After 5mins i quit gt5 and restart but it happens again. Everything is fine until the race start timer counts down and the screen goes black. Wierd.
 
Black screen before race starts, where mics and message window still works, is an old issue. It is caused by one player hanging. If it does not solve itself, that guy needs to quit and things will proceed. Of course the problem is to figure out who it is...
 
cicua
Black screen before race starts, where mics and message window still works, is an old issue. It is caused by one player hanging. If it does not solve itself, that guy needs to quit and things will proceed. Of course the problem is to figure out who it is...
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I see, thanks for that. Its a major pain in the butt. :ouch:
 
Regardless of the cause of the online vs. offline driving changes (be they physics, ffb, or simply bug related), this remains the GT5-killer for me. Personally, I can't believe everyone isn't angry as heck about this, but I do get the feeling that maybe controller users don't experience it nearly to the extent that wheel-users do. The short of it is that I've spent probably 20% the time playing GT5 than I otherwise would have, and will definitely not invest in a PS4/GT6 until I test and make sure this problem is actually gone. No way I'm wasting my time learning to drive cars only to take them online and discover they handle completely differently: An unforgivable and unacceptable part of the GT5 experience...
 
Well this thread isn't about the online/offline difference, posted in the OP.

However - It could be related imo.
 
And another problem appears... Every time someone is off the pace now in a race it's the fault of the "bug" and they get frustrated and quit races or withdraw from series completely.

I'm not suggesting like the "other" guy that this issue isn't real as I've experienced it myself, but this is turning into a hysteria where one or two badly executed laps or corner entries and drivers blame the system or at least suspect or distrust the results. In effect the credibility of the racing is being compromised.

A real, but indirect impact of this bug as it gets more prevalent and more publicized. And just about as destructive to online racing as the direct impact.
 
I noticed this issue yesterday, in a nascar race on daytona

we had this problem in two consecutive races (first was restarted due to this bug), second race with only 11 people suffered of this bug anyway for the first 3-4 laps, when a group of us, even slipstreaming leading cars lost them after few...
 
WRP001
And another problem appears... Every time someone is off the pace now in a race it's the fault of the "bug" and they get frustrated and quit races or withdraw from series completely.

I'm not suggesting like the "other" guy that this issue isn't real as I've experienced it myself, but this is turning into a hysteria where one or two badly executed laps or corner entries and drivers blame the system or at least suspect or distrust the results. In effect the credibility of the racing is being compromised.

A real, but indirect impact of this bug as it gets more prevalent and more publicized. And just about as destructive to online racing as the direct impact.
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Absolutley this, all I hear about now is how the bug is the reason for this and that :banghead:
I am as mad about this bug as anyone else but remember there are lots of other reasons why your laps are not brilliant every time!
 
berty1979
Absolutley this, all I hear about now is how the bug is the reason for this and that :banghead:
I am as mad about this bug as anyone else but remember there are lots of other reasons why your laps are not brilliant every time!
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Fair point mr lots of hysteria flying about, all i think we are asking is it comes down to purely a lack of talent not some outside uncontrollable influence we can do nothing about. Knowing 100% damm i took that right hander to fast rather than the random grip failure for instance will sure put some minds at ease.👍
 

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