GT6 Sales Discussion

[mister dog]

Depends if you want a fair comparisson or a biased one.

Fair
GT5 Spec II vs GT6 Spec II
GT5 at launch vs GT6 at launch

Unfair
GT5 Spec II vs GT6 at launch or without all the updates

Anyway GT6 have not had less changes than other games considered sequels mainly for its new graphics. In fact GT6 it have more changes than had GT2 from GT1.

You got a point there with the GT2 to 1 comparison, it's been a long time already so i don't remember it exactly but gameplay wise it wasn't a big innovation neither but more of an expanded GT1 with more cars and tracks.
The differences between 1 and 2 and 5 and 6 are a bit similar and it's a shame those two years of development time were used to make an expansion pack, than to alter what is wrong and start over again on what needs to be reworked for a long time already.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well with the BS i mean all the vague promises that either don't happen or people have to wait a year for after they bought the game thinking it would be there already, or coming soon after. I also think they are smart enough to know that if they would have released the VGT's they did so far as payed DLC, not much people would have bought it.

We're only speculating of course, but I think the same thing, the VGT's have no race series, aren't popular online and there isn't much to do with them except hotlap. There's no emotional connection with them either like there is for classic cars, Senna content etc. Savvy consumers these days don't just pay for more stuff, they want stuff they like and can use and that they feel connected to. I'd be much happier to pay for content I really want, rather than get a bushel basket full of stuff for free that I don't want.

 

[mister dog]

We're only speculating of course, but I think the same thing, the VGT's have no race series, aren't popular online and there isn't much to do with them except hotlap. There's no emotional connection with them either like there is for classic cars, Senna content etc. Savvy consumers these days don't just pay for more stuff, they want stuff they like and can use and that they feel connected to. I'd be much happier to pay for content I really want, rather than get a bushel basket full of stuff for free that I don't want.

Yup my hunch is only a minority of folk get that warm fuzzy feeling for 10 or so fantasy batmobiles. Most would want to get their hands on existing gems from real automotive history, more or less like the car packs T10 release that altogether cost nearly the price of a new game yet you would be willing to open your wallet for additions like that.

 

[Griffith500]

"Savvy". Ah, market-o-flattery at its best. Consume!

 

[jimipitbull]

That's the thing, they have a very dedicated fanbase who swallow most BS you can throw at them + their rep of the past decade which they can also bank on, but each time they release another uninspiring title those guarantees are wearing thinner though.

PS4 is short of racing titles at the moment, so i bet PD knows the regular sales hype and backup of Sony will generate another easy couple of millions for GT7 when it is eventually released, even if they once again don't make an effort, but i think they underestimate the competition and the fact that games like PCARS and a next gen Grid will be released earlier and might steal another portion of their customers away.

Be as it is even if they release a total turd of a game 3-4 million sales are practically in the pocket already, and that's a bit sad if you look at how hard smaller developers have to work and innovate in order to get the budget together and make a profit.

Compared to previous titles, GT6 has more tracks, more cars, better physics. Not sure where your priorities lie, but to me they are the 3 most important aspects.

Not swallowing any BS either - especially not yours. Simple fact is, for 12 months I have played 2-3 times a week, on average. Outside of GT5/6, there is no other PS3 game of any genre that has held my interest for that long.

 

[trustjab]

I always wondered why there are so many people who claim they're done with GT, but still talk about it as if they were wronged. Maybe it has some disappointing aspects, but missing some features in GT6 isnt the end of the franchise. Neither is reduced sales. No names, and not singling anyone out, but if GT isnt living up to your expectations thats fine. If it does and you enjoy it, thats fine. I dont get all the arguing over reasons for sales drops or trying to paint its future because of 1 installment. Even with 3-4 million sold, there are other series' that can only wish to have that in one year, on their 'worst selling' title.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I always wondered why there are so many people who claim they're done with GT, but still talk about it as if they were wronged. Maybe it has some disappointing aspects, but missing some features in GT6 isnt the end of the franchise. Neither is reduced sales. No names, and not singling anyone out, but if GT isnt living up to your expectations thats fine. If it does and you enjoy it, thats fine. I dont get all the arguing over reasons for sales drops or trying to paint its future because of 1 installment. Even with 3-4 million sold, there are other series' that can only wish to have that in one year, on their 'worst selling' title.

Economics. GT5 cost upwards of $100Million and only Forza can rival a budget like that. GT6 we can only guess but at least $50-60Million would seem reasonable. Those kinds of numbers aren't necessarily sustainable for Sony or PD with unit sales in the 3-5 million unit range and if the sales slump continues into the PS4 era, PD's budget could be substantially reduced which of course will affect the quality of the product they put out. PCars has a budget rumoured around $6million and it's available on 4 platforms. If it sells 4 million units on all 4 combined it's an outrageous success. GT7 not so much. And that's why we talk about it.

 

[jimipitbull]

I always wondered why there are so many people who claim they're done with GT, but still talk about it as if they were wronged. Maybe it has some disappointing aspects, but missing some features in GT6 isnt the end of the franchise. Neither is reduced sales. No names, and not singling anyone out, but if GT isnt living up to your expectations thats fine. If it does and you enjoy it, thats fine. I dont get all the arguing over reasons for sales drops or trying to paint its future because of 1 installment. Even with 3-4 million sold, there are other series' that can only wish to have that in one year, on their 'worst selling' title.

I wonder, would the same reasoning apply to other creative industries? Lets say, Taylor Swift's new album selling more copies in one week than Yeezus did in a whole year.

Either way, I'm done with Kanye.

 

[Scaff]

I wonder, would the same reasoning apply to other creative industries? Lets say, Taylor Swift's new album selling more copies in one week than Yeezus did in a whole year.

Either way, I'm done with Kanye.

Of course it does, which is exactly why people get dropped from recording contracts.

Creative or not it's still a business and still has to make a return, enough of one to cover future development and return money to the parent ccompany/shareholders.

 

[H1s6n]

PD lose GT6 sales because of PS4 (bad English)

 

[mister dog]

Compared to previous titles, GT6 has more tracks, more cars, better physics. Not sure where your priorities lie, but to me they are the 3 most important aspects.

That's true but using all those cars on all those tracks and having to chase the rabbit each time which forces you to make up 30 seconds in a couple of laps, turns every race into the "traffic avoidance challenge" which destroys the whole experience to me, and many others.

Not swallowing any BS either - especially not yours.

Mine doesn't cost you 60 bucks though.

Simple fact is, for 12 months I have played 2-3 times a week, on average. Outside of GT5/6, there is no other PS3 game of any genre that has held my interest for that long.

And i salute you. You see there are 2 types of GT players, your camp who can look over the series flaws and enjoy what is there, and ours who used to be GT fanatics but got turned away because of PD's many bad design decisions and poor communication.

 

[JKgo]

2 types of GT players, your camp who can look over the series flaws and enjoy what is there, and ours who used to be GT fanatics but got turned away because of PD's many bad design decisions and poor communication.

I can't get over the serious flaws in the game and get peeved over it but I continue to play it anyway...so where do I fall under?? Feels like I'm being discriminated here!!

Anyway, GT6 worst-selling version in its history? Not all that surprised. Amalgamation of factors, a perfect storm of sorts, happened and that affected sales, no doubt. Badly thought-out GT5, "oblique/obtuse" communication from PDI, poor marketing, break-neck launch of Xbone/PS4....Actually it's a small miracle GT6 sold this many copies, tbh.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Its not about what the game has got over the competitors, its about how the said game is put together to deliver a memorable experience, & that is where GT6 falls flat, nothing is 100% finished its all half baked. But I still play it regardless.

 

[trustjab]

Economics. GT5 cost upwards of $100Million and only Forza can rival a budget like that. GT6 we can only guess but at least $50-60Million would seem reasonable. Those kinds of numbers aren't necessarily sustainable for Sony or PD with unit sales in the 3-5 million unit range and if the sales slump continues into the PS4 era, PD's budget could be substantially reduced which of course will affect the quality of the product they put out. PCars has a budget rumoured around $6million and it's available on 4 platforms. If it sells 4 million units on all 4 combined it's an outrageous success. GT7 not so much. And that's why we talk about it.

Have we seen a gt6 budget? Obvious carryovers from gt5 are in gt6, and probably will be for gt7. Tools used are going to be used again. Brings it back to that comment about keeping the standard car assets. I think theyre smart enough to have a precedent set for their games. At least with things involving reused data. That investment in gt5 may have been the money used toward futurizing GT. Thats my guess.

 

[nickg07]

Basically the GT series suddenly became less than 1/3 to 1/4 as popular on the PS3 as it was on the ps1 and ps2.

America lost about half it's players from ps1 era and about 1/3 of its declining base. Europe has remained fairly constant.

 

[Griffith500]

After so many posts in this thread, the argument still hinges on one thing: nobody knows what PD / Sony can afford, and thus how affordable the sales of GT6 are, and also the development of GT7 is. We also have no idea what their plans are, nor, crucially, were.

It is not enough to say "it will have an effect", because what matters is the significance of that effect, and whether it was accounted for at any stage in Sony's plans. And because nobody knows but Sony, and they're clearly committed to another game on a new console (and have been for some time), all of this conjecture of "economic failure" looks entirely foolish.

 

[mister dog]

I can't get over the serious flaws in the game and get peeved over it but I continue to play it anyway...so where do I fall under?? Feels like I'm being discriminated here!!

I recognize this as i experienced it with GT5. If the frustrations outweigh the fun moments i'd recommend you stop bothering and look for alternatives that do provide the proper offline racing and engaging career mode you seek but don't give you those countless moments, like the FM series, Grid Autosport or PC sims like Asetto Corsa, Raceroom, Game stock car and the soon to be released PCARS. Might involve a switch in platform but it is definitely worth the money if you love your virtual racing.

If on the other hand the fun moments still outweigh the frustrations i'd say you fall into the first category of people that can look over the flaws and still enjoy the GT series for what it is.

 

[Zer0]

You got a point there with the GT2 to 1 comparison, it's been a long time already so i don't remember it exactly but gameplay wise it wasn't a big innovation neither but more of an expanded GT1 with more cars and tracks.
The differences between 1 and 2 and 5 and 6 are a bit similar and it's a shame those two years of development time were used to make an expansion pack, than to alter what is wrong and start over again on what needs to be reworked for a long time already.

GT6 at its actual state is not more of an "expansion pack" or have less gameplay big innovations than GT4 had from GT3. The second title per console it have never been a revolution but a work of evolution and polishing, any seasoned GT player should know that, newbies or casuals maybe not.

Those kinds of numbers aren't necessarily sustainable for Sony or PD with unit sales in the 3-5 million unit range and if the sales slump continues into the PS4 era, PD's budget could be substantially reduced which of course will affect the quality of the product they put out.

If that someday happens you will see the results of any budget cut not instantly in the next title but at a very large long-term period (PS5-PS6...) and only if the sales per full title remains always stalled in the lowest number or decline more than that in a catastrofic rate, title after title, and after all the intents of PD's to evole. So even in that fantasy case of GT6 causing the demolition of a highly succesfull 15 years brand, no matter being financially a good decission even risking to obtain half the sales of the previous title, no matter the external factors involved, no matter the HUGE incomes that would have generated the previous titles in the same PS3 generation (and previous gens), no matter being the best selling exclusive franchise in the console since the first Playstation, no matter the impact that will have any old or new GT features running under a new more powerful hardware, no matter the traditionally GT sales impact in a new console just by the eye-catching fresh photorealistic graphics, etc. Even ignoring all that PD will have many titles in front of them to evolve, apply changes or rectify what they consider to gain sales, they are not an static entity, in fact there is no other game with more life and constant news in the media, after the launch, than GT or that give more for less to the general public.

That "hanging by a thread" GT early theories doesn't have sense or have a real basis in the real world, are just excuses or fuel to stoke the fires of the PD allergics. If I had to bet for a racing franchise that be alive in the next twenty years and I can only choose one title it would be GT and only GT.

PCars has a budget rumoured around $6million and it's available on 4 platforms. If it sells 4 million units on all 4 combined it's an outrageous success. GT7 not so much. And that's why we talk about it.

That's again a very simplistic view, just by publicity and indirects incomes the GT brand is an important asset needed for the SCE strategy. I have said many times, GT could be given for free installed with every PS4 and would still be a succesfull financial investment for Sony.

Anyway would be very interesting to see how a game like PCars will do it selling to the masses.

 

[Johnnypenso]

GT6 at its actual state is not more of an "expansion pack" or have less gameplay big innovations than GT4 had from GT3. The second title per console it have never been a revolution but a work of evolution and polishing, any seasoned GT player should know that, newbies or casuals maybe not.


If that someday happens you will see the results of any budget cut not instantly in the next title but at a very large long-term period (PS5-PS6...) and only if the sales per full title remains always stalled in the lowest number or decline more than that in a catastrofic rate, title after title, and after all the intents of PD's to evole. So even in that fantasy case of GT6 causing the demolition of a highly succesfull 15 years brand, no matter being financially a good decission even risking to obtain half the sales of the previous title, no matter the external factors involved, no matter the HUGE incomes that would have generated the previous titles in the same PS3 generation (and previous gens), no matter being the best selling exclusive franchise in the console since the first Playstation, no matter the impact that will have any old or new GT features running under a new more powerful hardware, no matter the traditionally GT sales impact in a new console just by the eye-catching fresh photorealistic graphics, etc. Even ignoring all that PD will have many titles in front of them to evolve, apply changes or rectify what they consider to gain sales, they are not an static entity, in fact there is no other game with more life and constant news in the media, after the launch, than GT or that give more for less to the general public.

That "hanging by a thread" GT early theories doesn't have sense or have a real basis in the real world, are just excuses or fuel to stoke the fires of the PD allergics. If I had to bet for a racing franchise that be alive in the next twenty years and I can only choose one title it would be GT and only GT.


That's again a very simplistic view, just by publicity and indirects incomes the GT brand is an important asset needed for the SCE strategy. I have said many times, GT could be given for free installed with every PS4 and would still be a succesfull financial investment for Sony.

Anyway would be very interesting to see how a game like PCars will do it selling to the masses.

In this day and age the saying, "You're only as good as your last [anything]" has never been more true. The era of companies hanging on for years throwing money at stuff on faith it'll turn around is quickly disappearing, and with GT only releasing a game every few years, and Sony desperate for cash, they'll continue to support it at current levels only if it sells at current levels IMO. I think they'll get a pass for GT6 because it was relatively cheap to make and they didn't put a lot of effort or money into marketing it, but if the trend of lower sales (if true) continues on the PS4, then changes will be made.

I don't think PCars is going to sell anywhere near GT numbers simply because it's going to be perceived as too hardcore for casual players. With all the driver aids I don't believe that to be true, but it's more inline with a sim, than a game like GT. No car customization, no car upgrades, no crazy tires on street cars, no 1000 hp street GT-R's, small car selection etc. etc. etc...all the things people rave about in the GT series it doesn't have. All the stuff people are less concerned about in GT ie. good, solid racing, pinpoint accuracy in modeling all aspects of a car, a physics engine lightyears ahead of GT, real time damage, simulating a full race weekend, etc. etc. etc. those are PCars strong suits. I think the game will also be heavily marketed as a full on sim and I'm not sure that has wide appeal either. There's a reason Need For Speed has sold 100Million+ units and GT 70Million+ and it's not for hardcore physics or intense racing. I would be very surprised if they sold 5 million total units combined on all 4 platforms but it would be a raging success if they did, given it's sliver of a budget relative to GT and Forza.

 

[Imari]

Unfair
GT5 Spec II vs GT6 at launch or without all the updates

Why is this unfair? Was GT6 not released after GT5 Spec II? Is there some reason that I'm not aware of that the things that were added to GT5 Spec II were not able to be added to GT6?

GT5 Spec II should have been considered the absolute baseline for what GT6 should be at release. Because anything else would mean actually making a new game that was worse than what was currently on shelves at the time.

Realistically, GT6 at release should have been at the very minimum a minor upgrade from GT5 Spec II.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why is this unfair? Was GT6 not released after GT5 Spec II? Is there some reason that I'm not aware of that the things that were added to GT5 Spec II were not able to be added to GT6?

GT5 Spec II should have been considered the absolute baseline for what GT6 should be at release. Because anything else would mean actually making a new game that was worse than what was currently on shelves at the time.

Realistically, GT6 at release should have been at the very minimum a minor upgrade from GT5 Spec II.

Absolutely. GT6 Spec II vs GT5 Spec II would actually be the unfair comparison because the GT6 version can piggyback GT5 Spec II + GT6 Release Version + 1+ years of further development.

 

[Tornado]

The second title per console it have never been a revolution but a work of evolution and polishing

Unfair
GT5 Spec II vs GT6 at launch or without all the updates

Pick one argument and stick with it.

 

[Scaff]

I have said many times, GT could be given for free installed with every PS4 and would still be a successful financial investment for Sony.

A successful financial investment would require it to more than cover the cost of development and you believe that could be achieved simply in terms of increased sales of PS4's (so units that would not have been purchased without the inclusion of GT7 on PS4).

Citation required please, because these number of going to be rather interesting.

GT5 cost approx $60 million to develop (and Sony then have to pay out on marketing and distribution on top of that), its unlikely a PS4 version would cost less (particularly given the new building and additional staff PD now have, not to mention the fact that dev costs increase with each generation).

Forbes put the PS4 at $18 profit per unit on manufacture alone back in 2013, however that doesn't include marketing, distribution, etc. costs (its pure component and assemble costs).

That would require GT7 to shift 3.3 million units that would otherwise never have been sold at all for you argument to hold true (and assumes that dev costs don't increase, GT7 marketing and distribution costs are all zero and all ancillary costs for Sony around the PS4 have been off set).

So what your looking for is something to prove that GT7 (if free) would increase PS4 sales by at least 3.3 million to people who would otherwise not by the system.

 

[trustjab]

Sony is far from desperate for cash. People, dont assume its in any trouble. Sony may have been left behind thanks to the stupid popular Apple and Samsung, but theres money making divisions in Sony- Movies and Gaming. GT is under the gaming part. Even if GT5 & 6 both cost $100 million to produce or its their total budget of $200 million, to break even at $20 profit per game, they'd need 10 million copies sold between the two. And I doubt they spent $200 million on gt5 & 6. Well, maybe they did! But, I dont think gt is losing money even if. I dont see Sony cutting into their spending either. Time will tell.

 

[Scaff]

Sony is far from desperate for cash. People, dont assume its in any trouble. Sony may have been left behind thanks to the stupid popular Apple and Samsung, but theres money making divisions in Sony- Movies and Gaming. GT is under the gaming part. Even if GT5 & 6 both cost $100 million to produce or its their total budget of $200 million, to break even at $20 profit per game, they'd need 10 million copies sold between the two. And I doubt they spent $200 million on gt5 & 6. Well, maybe they did! But, I dont think gt is losing money even if. I dont see Sony cutting into their spending either. Time will tell.

Can you provide a link to show that GT titles retain $20 profit per unit?

As with all game titles once they shift x number of units or have been out for x months they get reduced in retail value quite considerably, more than enough to make a $20 per unit figure unlikely.

Keep in mind that development costs are only a part of it as well, the cost to market and distribute a title also has to be taken into account and with the GTA the former of those is not likely to be cheap (remember the GT6 launch event).

Now you are right that the units required for GT6 to break even and then into profit are lower that those for GT5 (because of offset dev costs and assets from GT5 being used in GT6).

However what is being discussed is that development costs are going up in each generation, while GT sales appear to be on a decline. Many developers have helped to offset this via DC sales, this route however has stalled for PD.

 

[trustjab]

Can you provide a link to show that GT titles retain $20 profit per unit?

As with all game titles once they shift x number of units or have been out for x months they get reduced in retail value quite considerably, more than enough to make a $20 per unit figure unlikely.

Keep in mind that development costs are only a part of it as well, the cost to market and distribute a title also has to be taken into account and with the GTA the former of those is not likely to be cheap (remember the GT6 launch event)

I said if, as in a 'hypothetical' profit margin. Is there a link for GT5's official budget being $100 million? Is there a link for GT6's budget at all? Usually a budget covers all associated costs related to the game. Thats not just development. Wouldnt be surprised if all the associated costs with promotion, distribution, production etc. were all under its budget. Is that unreasonable, imo its not. The point Im making is, bringing up low sales and a budget from gt5 shouldnt be reason to assume one way or the other that GT in general is going to cost Sony or make them money. Only time will tell.

 

[Zer0]

Why is this unfair? Was GT6 not released after GT5 Spec II? Is there some reason that I'm not aware of that the things that were added to GT5 Spec II were not able to be added to GT6?

GT5 Spec II should have been considered the absolute baseline for what GT6 should be at release. Because anything else would mean actually making a new game that was worse than what was currently on shelves at the time.

Realistically, GT6 at release should have been at the very minimum a minor upgrade from GT5 Spec II.

Because GT6 is not a patch applied to a GT5 but a new game based on a new allocation of resources and new features running under the same hardware and under the same limitations of the previous game. So some things will need to go to leave room to others and those others can be not ready on day one, as they were not in GT5 until the updates. Other repeating old features will need to be recoded to be fitted in the new resource allocations and this also requires time.

So no, PS3 does not have unlimited resources, GT6 is not a patched GT5 and not all the missing things are PD wishes but forced decissions by the hardware limits.

In this day and age the saying, "You're only as good as your last [anything]" has never been more true. The era of companies hanging on for years throwing money at stuff on faith it'll turn around is quickly disappearing, and with GT only releasing a game every few years, and Sony desperate for cash, they'll continue to support it at current levels only if it sells at current levels IMO. I think they'll get a pass for GT6 because it was relatively cheap to make and they didn't put a lot of effort or money into marketing it, but if the trend of lower sales (if true) continues on the PS4, then changes will be made.

And still... you are not going to sacrifice your best asset in you healest business division except if you are a hypochondriac and mistakes a cold with an ebola. As I said, there is no other racing game as strong and in the position of GT to survive in the incoming years, even in the worst pre-staged scenarios.

I don't think PCars is going to sell anywhere near GT numbers simply because it's going to be perceived as too hardcore for casual players. With all the driver aids I don't believe that to be true, but it's more inline with a sim, than a game like GT. No car customization, no car upgrades, no crazy tires on street cars, no 1000 hp street GT-R's, small car selection etc. etc. etc...all the things people rave about in the GT series it doesn't have. All the stuff people are less concerned about in GT ie. good, solid racing, pinpoint accuracy in modeling all aspects of a car, a physics engine lightyears ahead of GT, real time damage, simulating a full race weekend, etc. etc. etc. those are PCars strong suits. I think the game will also be heavily marketed as a full on sim and I'm not sure that has wide appeal either. There's a reason Need For Speed has sold 100Million+ units and GT 70Million+ and it's not for hardcore physics or intense racing. I would be very surprised if they sold 5 million total units combined on all 4 platforms but it would be a raging success if they did, given it's sliver of a budget relative to GT and Forza.

PCars is basically a crowdfunded game tailored for a very specific and small crowd, not thought to appeal to a normal player. Those games always failed to sell well. That is what will make its sales interesting, some are hyping PCars as a better GT but is nowhere close to a substitute except for a very minor section of unhappy GT buyers. iRacing with all the hype and publicity it have only 50k subscribers, it should put things into perspective.

GT plays in another league than NFS, it has not much merit to sell +100M when you mass-sell your games in any device in existence and the game releases are in a year basis to sustain a continuos rate of sales. I can't imagine how many hundreds of millions could have sold GT with the same methodology...

A successful financial investment would require it to more than cover the cost of development and you believe that could be achieved simply in terms of increased sales of PS4's (so units that would not have been purchased without the inclusion of GT7 on PS4).

Citation required please, because these number of going to be rather interesting.

GT5 cost approx $60 million to develop (and Sony then have to pay out on marketing and distribution on top of that), its unlikely a PS4 version would cost less (particularly given the new building and additional staff PD now have, not to mention the fact that dev costs increase with each generation).

Forbes put the PS4 at $18 profit per unit on manufacture alone back in 2013, however that doesn't include marketing, distribution, etc. costs (its pure component and assemble costs).

That would require GT7 to shift 3.3 million units that would otherwise never have been sold at all for you argument to hold true (and assumes that dev costs don't increase, GT7 marketing and distribution costs are all zero and all ancillary costs for Sony around the PS4 have been off set).

So what your looking for is something to prove that GT7 (if free) would increase PS4 sales by at least 3.3 million to people who would otherwise not by the system.

That's again a very limited scope. What Sony wins with each sold console is what matter less, every console sold means a continuos income every time that a game or DLC is bought by that owner. And you know, at times companyes pay for very expensive image campaigns, without the need to sell any product. A free GT7 installed with every PS4 would have been one of the best adverts ever for the console and would imply many millions of GT7 online with a very nice potential of DLC revenues.

Citation required of how the $60M were expended please, it's common that the total development cost include also the expenses of marketing, similar to how it works in the movie industry.

http://www.ibtimes.com/gta-5-costs-...ost-expensive-video-game-ever-produced-report

 

[Scaff]

I said if, as in a 'hypothetical' profit margin. Is there a link for GT5's official budget being $100 million? Is there a link for GT6's budget at all? Usually a budget covers all associated costs related to the game. Thats not just development. Wouldnt be surprised if all the associated costs with promotion, distribution, production etc. were all under its budget. Is that unreasonable, imo its not. The point Im making is, bringing up low sales and a budget from gt5 shouldnt be reason to assume one way or the other that GT in general is going to cost Sony or make them money. Only time will tell.

Your 'if' was in relation to development costs, not to profit margin, but its nice to know that you seem to be pulling these figures out of thin air.

Now as far as GT5 cost to develop, its was circa $60 million, as stated by PD......


http://kotaku.com/5397660/how-much-did-gran-turismo-5-cost-to-make


....and as such that would be development only. PD do not market or distribute the GT series, Sony do.

That's again a very limited scope. What Sony wins with each sold console is what matter less, every console sold means a continuos income every time that a game or DLC is bought by that owner. And you know, at times companyes pay for very expensive image campaigns, without the need to sell any product. A free GT7 installed with every PS4 would have been one of the best adverts ever for the console and would imply many millions of GT7 online with a very nice potential of DLC revenues.

So that's a no you can't provide anything to back up your claim, not a big surprise at all.

Your claim was quite clear, why are you now making it so woolly?

Citation required of how the $60M were expended please, it's common that the total development cost include also the expenses of marketing, similar to how it works in the movie industry.

http://www.ibtimes.com/gta-5-costs-...ost-expensive-video-game-ever-produced-report

See the link above, a quote from the developer stating development costs (your link for GTA5 clearly states that it covers both), links relating to the $60 million cost all state development and a number of them (google away if you don't like mine) state that it doesn't include marketing (and why would PD comment on an area they don't pay for - publishers pay for distribution - take a look at the movie industry that's the way that actually works). Had this figure not come from PD you might have a point, but it did.

Oh and DLC revenues, could you remind us when they will kick in for GT6? They seem to have gone AWOL since GT5.

Now how about those sources for your claim that GT7 would sell 3.3 million (circa and in place of the lack of detail from you) that would otherwise have not been bought. As your post above is a distraction from you actually providing that information, as I gave you a pass on those figures in my rough breakdown (a point you either missed, ignored or failed to actually understand).

So once again please provide a source that helps support the factual claim you made (oh and I wasn't daft enough to make a factual claim before you try that old chestnut - I merely provided indicative figures that you omitted).

 

[Tornado]

Now as far as GT5 cost to develop, its was circa $60 million, as stated by PD......


http://kotaku.com/5397660/how-much-did-gran-turismo-5-cost-to-make

On top of that, it was also $60 million as stated by PD over a year before the game actually managed to release.

Because GT6 is not a patch applied to a GT5 but a new game based on a new allocation of resources and new features running under the same hardware and under the same limitations of the previous game.

Even assuming things like the Log In bonus or a mode where the AI essentially drives your car instead of you is a crippling over-expenditure of resources, "PD made another heavily compromised game because they dramatically overreached the system limitations they already knew about well in advance" is, ah, not really a feather in your cap.

Other repeating old features will need to be recoded to be fitted in the new resource allocations and this also requires time.

I'm afraid that's irrelevant. You were asked why GT6 can't be fairly compared to the GT5 title it was replacing, a thing that literally everyone who moved from GT5 to GT6 did; and you were asked such after doubling down and saying long time GT players should expect "evolution and polish" in the second console release. No one asked why GT6 might have been so lacking at launch compared to GT5 2.14, and I suspect it's because no one really cares what softball excuses you have for why PD ended up dropping a bunch of features that people already had to wait many months for GT5 to get in the first place when they are still waiting for some of them to be put back in.


So, again: Should long time GT players expect "evolution and polish" with the second console release GT games, or should they expect a return to something approaching the original status quo despite two and a half years of improvements to the first console release GT game because of vague "system limitations" PD were apparently incapable of planning for? You can't argue both things.

 

[Imari]

And still... you are not going to sacrifice your best asset in you healest business division except if you are a hypochondriac and mistakes a cold with an ebola. As I said, there is no other racing game as strong and in the position of GT to survive in the incoming years, even in the worst pre-staged scenarios.

You think Polyphony is Sony's best asset in terms of first party studios? I'd suggest that Media Molecule and Naughty Dog would give Polyphony a run for their money if push came to shove. Maybe Polyphony's the best of the three, but I don't think it's a sure thing. Personally, I'd keep Naughty Dog over just about anyone else, they've been making system sellers for Playstation since before GT1.

And don't forget that Sony did shut down Studio Liverpool, so there's very much precedent for them shutting down studios that are/were responsible for iconic system sellers.

PCars is basically a crowdfunded game tailored for a very specific and small crowd, not thought to appeal to a normal player. Those games always failed to sell well. That is what will make its sales interesting, some are hyping PCars as a better GT but is nowhere close to a substitute except for a very minor section of unhappy GT buyers.

What will makes it's sales interesting is that it combines what has traditionally been two of GT's strong points, outstanding graphics and strong driving physics, with at least one platform that has absolutely zero competition right now, the PS4. If you want a non-arcade racing game on PS4 in the next 6 months, pCARS is all there is.

It will be interesting to see the sales on X1 and PC and how it stacks up against the competition on those platforms, but on PS4 it should be a slam dunk. I imagine anyone who has a PS4 and would buy GT7 will pick up pCARS, because why wouldn't you? There's literally no other options.

pCARS doesn't compete with GT now, but it doesn't have to. The mistake for GT is letting them get a foot in the door. If pCARS does well enough to justify an increased budget for a sequel, it could very well grow into something with a car and feature list that could threaten GT.