GT7 AI, will it improve?
- Thread starter Mac117
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- 3,003
- Dundee, Scotland
I do not anticipate that we will see the 'superior' AI every one wants in game.
Whilst modern AI should be a 'thing' I find it frustrating in other racing games and if a change in the model were to be made then I would hope the format of the events would change to.
Chase the rabbit is extremely boring in my opinion particularly in Sport where you just need to find the OP car and win easily, what I want to see is the game returning back to the model of GT1 and GT2 where you could use an overpowered tuned car to race against the AI but you could also find an 'underdog' and tune it up to to be competitive and at least making it a racing challenge against the AI.
The return of the PP system suggests that any AI we see in GT7 will be measured against this and if we get a 'low point's' race then odds are we are going to win against the AI easily and if we get 'high point's' it will be more competitive.
Whilst modern AI should be a 'thing' I find it frustrating in other racing games and if a change in the model were to be made then I would hope the format of the events would change to.
Chase the rabbit is extremely boring in my opinion particularly in Sport where you just need to find the OP car and win easily, what I want to see is the game returning back to the model of GT1 and GT2 where you could use an overpowered tuned car to race against the AI but you could also find an 'underdog' and tune it up to to be competitive and at least making it a racing challenge against the AI.
The return of the PP system suggests that any AI we see in GT7 will be measured against this and if we get a 'low point's' race then odds are we are going to win against the AI easily and if we get 'high point's' it will be more competitive.
- 612
- Italy
You mean that it's likely that AI in GT7 could get better than GT Sport but still not as good as other modern games? If I understood correctly?
- 51,251
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
I haven't seen the perfect AI in a console game, but other games sure do have more challenging AI than Gran Turismo Sport.
It's been mentioned many times. AI doesn't have to be the same for a 7 or 77 yearly old. PD's Beginner, Intermediate and Professional AI settings, are not enough. I'm not an AI programmer nor do I know what it takes to program AI. However, those of us that have played games with competitive AI, know GT Sport is inconsistent. Not just the rabbit or rubberbanding, but track to track and vehicle dependent.
A La Ferrari shouldn't be flailing across a circuit all race. An SF19 shouldn't all of a sudden surpass its standard top speed, when the user's car can't.
- 3,003
- Dundee, Scotland
- 612
- Italy
- 13,892
- Adelaide
- Neomone
It could be, but it's not. They made the game that they wanted to make.
Not for sure. You hope. Apparently with very little in the way of actual logic to back this up. And PS5 processing power has very little to do with this if you think that GT4 on PS2 had better AI than GTS.
A hyped system seller franchise that has made them hundreds of millions of dollars while still including poor AI. What's their incentive to change? By the metrics that Polyphony and Sony will use to measure success, their design is doing very well.
And your source or reasoning for this is?
My reasoning is that they're professional designers doing their jobs and this is part of the design of the game - after 7 repetitions it seems pretty clear that it's intentional and you need something a bit stronger than "nuh uh" to refute that.
The alternative is that the game has been designed for the past 20 years by people so staggeringly incompetent that they're unaware that AI is a central part of the gameplay of a racing game, and at the top of that list would be Kazunori Yamauchi.
I give Kaz a hard time for many things, but the man is not stupid. People claim that's he's a perfectionist with regard to graphics, physics and all the rest of it, but not this? Please. This is the AI that he wants, and he's perfectly happy with it which is why it hasn't and won't change.
At what point are you willing to accept that what you're writing is a wishlist and not actually based on either historical precedent or any real information about future intention from Polyphony?
Why not? It's apparently making them money. GT5 and GT6 were colossal cluster:censored:s in many respects but they still apparently made enough money for Polyphony to take their time making GTS. They've got plenty of excuses, starting with "what's the matter Sony, you don't like money?"
Are they? How? Hardware hasn't been a real restriction on having passable AI for a couple of decades. So what's changed in 2021 that suddenly they want to alter the gameplay style of having slow and boring single player AI that has brought them so much success in the last 20+ years?
Do you see how bad it is that you're saying that AI from 2004, which was a bit of a joke for being brainless at the time, would be an improvement? In 16 years and going from PS2 to PS4 they've somehow made it worse (debatable, but let's roll with it), but it's not intentional? Really?
PS3 architecture still remains a scapegoat I see. Yes, it was obviously a hurdle in development but PD were just about the best placed studio of any out there. They got access to the architecture before just about anybody else, and had all the info they needed on its inner workings being a first party studio. Plenty of other developers created games with fast, intelligent AI, PD simply chose not to, they put their effort and time into other areas. It was a choice.
They even made the choice to actively make the GT5 AI worse in a patch. At launch the events were all grid start events with slow, but fair driving AI. A patch late in the game life changed them all to catch the rabbit, rolling starts with boost that have then remained the standard ever since.
That is what they want. It is not a limitation of any hardware that requires them to program catch the rabbit AI with spaced out rolling starts. They wanted that. They chose that. They were happy to update one game with that and launch two games with that from the off.
They even made the choice to actively make the GT5 AI worse in a patch. At launch the events were all grid start events with slow, but fair driving AI. A patch late in the game life changed them all to catch the rabbit, rolling starts with boost that have then remained the standard ever since.
That is what they want. It is not a limitation of any hardware that requires them to program catch the rabbit AI with spaced out rolling starts. They wanted that. They chose that. They were happy to update one game with that and launch two games with that from the off.
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- 55
- Storm--Trooper-
Will the AI improve is the question, well it can't get any worse so unless they stick their heads in the sand i would expect an improvement but by how much we will have to see. I'm hopeful but I think part of the problem is the culture of wanting everything pristine and perfect, the programming team can't get their heads round drivers making mistakes and cars getting smashed up.
- 51,251
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
That's the thing, the AI do smash everything and make mistakes. I've "led" AI to late brake itself into a wall plenty of times.
AI need to be beginner friendly and challenging for the processional. It can be done.
For all of PD's attention to detail, they haven't perfected the AI for the core of the GT community.
If PD wanted, they could probably program AI to follow users like laser cruise control. We had such a programming, with the GT-R Safety car, when it leads users around the Nordschliefe.
There are those of us that are keeping hope alive. We'll have to see if PD have been listening/reading about users' gripes regarding AI.
AI need to be beginner friendly and challenging for the processional. It can be done.
For all of PD's attention to detail, they haven't perfected the AI for the core of the GT community.
If PD wanted, they could probably program AI to follow users like laser cruise control. We had such a programming, with the GT-R Safety car, when it leads users around the Nordschliefe.
There are those of us that are keeping hope alive. We'll have to see if PD have been listening/reading about users' gripes regarding AI.
- 1,518
- Indonesia
Not about AI, but there's something other that has been bad in GT for decades, like sound. All the way until GT6. But for 1 game GTS has the sound considerably improved that it can be considered pretty good now. The reason is known too though where they hired an ex-Forza sound guy.
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- 612
- Italy
I never said that they will improve the AI, I said that this is something I hope to see to get improved.
I hope they will not use the same AI from Sport and that they at least have the intention to make some improvements. Will it be good? Dunno, but if they manage to improve from GTS chase the rubber AI, then it's already a good result. (with difficulty levels maybe)
The AI until GT5 was reasonable, it's from GT6 that they screwed up and adopted the 'chase the rubber' garbage AI.... Maybe they will bring back the AI type from GT4-GT5 with more rubberbanding and some improvements with PS5 processing power and difficulty levels on career mode to give more of a challenge to the players? who knows? Everything is better than what we got on GTS... Worse than that is not possible...
- 13,892
- Adelaide
- Neomone
That's true. I should be clear, I don't think it's impossible that they improve it or that they realise that they're making a mistake and decide to change it.
But the history of the sound thing is similar. Remember the GT5 interview where Kaz said that "the sound we produce is just too accurate"? I think for a long time with the sounds they didn't think that they had a problem either, and the sound was exactly what they intended it to be. Until someone obviously convinced them otherwise (or maybe the vacuum cleaner memes were just too much) and they ended up hiring Mike Caviezel away from Forza.
I think they're still in the first stage with regards to AI - they don't think they have a problem. I hope someone close to those making these decisions is working to convince them otherwise, and I hope that when they do they have someone on staff who can make a decent AI or they're willing to hire any of the other substantially talented people in the industry. And yeah, this is likely to just happen without warning and we should all be hopeful, but at the same time I think after 7 mainline games it's up to Polyphony to show to the players that they understand the problem and are addressing it rather than the players making excuses for them.
Mate, we can all read your posts.
I'm going to guess at this point that English is not your first language and that you used words that aren't what you wanted to say. Perhaps what you meant to say was that you hope that they might use the extra power of PS5 to create better AI, but you're not sure what will happen.
Understood, and apologies for maybe reading more into your words than you intended. But if you're talking about what you hope will happen, maybe don't use phrases like "they will" and "for sure" - those are for things that you know for a fact will happen in the future.
Calling the AI before GT5 reasonable is probably pushing it a little bit.
GT1 and 2 AI weren't great, but almost no racing game AI was terribly good in 1999, and certainly not on console. For the time that they were released, they were fine.
GT3 and 4 AI weren't great, and it was starting to be a problem but it still wasn't really that far removed from other similar games of the time. And GT4 was actually making an effort to address the difficulty problem with A-Spec Points, even though the way that they did it was pretty flawed.
GT5 AI was just bad for when it released, and this time if anything the design of the single player made things worse.
GT6 AI was the point where the AI was obviously awful to the point that it wasn't even funny any more. From here they had the worst AI of any major racing game.
To be clear, I have not bought GTS as I was burned out on Gran Turismo after GT5 and 6 and spent the generation playing Forza, AC/ACC, F1 and Dirt on my PC. But my understanding from the little I've played of GTS and talking to other people is that not much has changed.
I want GT7 to be good because I do actually want a good GT game to play, but having played all this other stuff for years if they simply go back to GT4/5 level AI that's not nearly good enough. It wasn't very good at the time, and it's not any better now 15 years later.
Mildly upgraded versions of AI that was bad in the past isn't going to solve this problem because it's still a mildly upgraded version of something that was designed around a flawed style of gameplay. They need to go back to the drawing board and rethink what they really want their AI to do and build on that.
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- 612
- Italy
Yes, it was my mistake sorry. English is not my first language, I didn't expressed myself very well and I probably hadn't used the correct words in the context of what I wanted to say.
Anyways, I can't wait for another trailer to see how the development is going and how the game changed since the last trailer, very curious to see how they are progressing.
- 51,251
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
For those that may have never played a racing game with competitive AI.
AI Difficulty: Very Hard(7 settings from Very Easy to Legendary)
AI Aggression: High(5 settings from Very Low to Very High)
Yes, there are divebombs, but the AI act so quick, I barely have time to react to cover. I have to cover way in advance and even then, SMS programmed the AI to stick like glue on the track surface, to pass me on the outside.
From Lap 1 to the finish, there is no time to rest. Time is spent trying to figure where I can set up a pass, where can I place my car, backing off and resetting, being patient for an opportunity, trying not to outbrake myself(which I've done heaps). As this race shows, this is what it looks like when all the AI are rabbits.
PD need to give us these options. Us offline players need this in the next GT.
AI Difficulty: Very Hard(7 settings from Very Easy to Legendary)
AI Aggression: High(5 settings from Very Low to Very High)
Yes, there are divebombs, but the AI act so quick, I barely have time to react to cover. I have to cover way in advance and even then, SMS programmed the AI to stick like glue on the track surface, to pass me on the outside.
From Lap 1 to the finish, there is no time to rest. Time is spent trying to figure where I can set up a pass, where can I place my car, backing off and resetting, being patient for an opportunity, trying not to outbrake myself(which I've done heaps). As this race shows, this is what it looks like when all the AI are rabbits.
PD need to give us these options. Us offline players need this in the next GT.
- 1,715
- Sydney
- snakebacon97
The AI in Sport I've found a bit stronger than in 5 or 6, and in custom races with grid starts you can alleviate the whole rabbit problem and have a race, of sorts.
Balancing the difficulty of a GT campaign is an unenviable task, though. To cater to everyone (DRIVING IS FOR EVERYONE™) is a tough problem to solve. The way they've gone about it, mostly since 5, is to have a parade of cars that take every corner slower than you, but start 3km ahead. It worked for Daytona USA, but that particular procession of rolling roadblocks is very hard to reach the front of. In Gran Turismo mode, the player's goal is to win everything, and winning everything, too, is an opportunity for everyone who puts effort in.
Online, players will have a range of winning from 0.5% for Joe Average who won on an oval once when everyone else crashed, to maybe 7% for competitive players against people of similar skill.
Offline, the nature of the game means that you'll want to be winning as often as you can in GT mode, probably more than 85% of the time, so you can make progress towards finishing the hundreds of events. Even in a very hard racing game like Motorstorm: Pacific Rift, the goal is the same, and it can get away with having races you may need to restart 14 times because they're 7 minute races, tops. Nobody wants to come second in the Tsukuba 9 hours and do it again later, it'd ruin your whole week!
So, I imagine, what we want from GT7's AI is:
Balancing the difficulty of a GT campaign is an unenviable task, though. To cater to everyone (DRIVING IS FOR EVERYONE™) is a tough problem to solve. The way they've gone about it, mostly since 5, is to have a parade of cars that take every corner slower than you, but start 3km ahead. It worked for Daytona USA, but that particular procession of rolling roadblocks is very hard to reach the front of. In Gran Turismo mode, the player's goal is to win everything, and winning everything, too, is an opportunity for everyone who puts effort in.
Online, players will have a range of winning from 0.5% for Joe Average who won on an oval once when everyone else crashed, to maybe 7% for competitive players against people of similar skill.
Offline, the nature of the game means that you'll want to be winning as often as you can in GT mode, probably more than 85% of the time, so you can make progress towards finishing the hundreds of events. Even in a very hard racing game like Motorstorm: Pacific Rift, the goal is the same, and it can get away with having races you may need to restart 14 times because they're 7 minute races, tops. Nobody wants to come second in the Tsukuba 9 hours and do it again later, it'd ruin your whole week!
So, I imagine, what we want from GT7's AI is:
- To beat them, but only by a small margin (dynamic difficulty settings, rubber banding)
- To start closer together, and see overtaking (assertive AI, grid starts (Surely they know we crave the "3, 2, 1, GO")
- For them to not use the brakes on every turn of Daytona
- Several worthy opponents, rather than one rabbit
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- 3,465
- Gdynia
- MroczMR
This can be solved easily by adding difficulty settings. Just choose AI level and drive "easy " racing or tough challenge.
- 183
- Oured, Osea
First of all... i doubt it, so i won't get my hopes up. It was adequate in the past, because we just didn't know better. But today the AI feels stale and not smart at all. If it isn't all that smart it should atleast be fun. I feel like they let go on the straights, never making full use of their car.
They should be more aggresive and not drive in a perfect line. Let the AI have different "personalities". Also a difficulty slider. It shouldn't be all that hard, but what do i know.
They should be more aggresive and not drive in a perfect line. Let the AI have different "personalities". Also a difficulty slider. It shouldn't be all that hard, but what do i know.
- 882
- Spain
GT campaign difficulty can be set up at any level you want.
It all depends on what car you choose compared to the rivals, and how much power and weight you put in it. It has been working like this in each and every Gran Turismo.
You guys will surely remember, in old GT games, when you tried to win a race but failed, then with the prize money you got from finishing 3rd or 4th you bought a new car component that made you gain 15 or 20 HP and that was enough to finally win...
It all depends on what car you choose compared to the rivals, and how much power and weight you put in it. It has been working like this in each and every Gran Turismo.
You guys will surely remember, in old GT games, when you tried to win a race but failed, then with the prize money you got from finishing 3rd or 4th you bought a new car component that made you gain 15 or 20 HP and that was enough to finally win...
Upgrading cars to win and AI speed are two different things. If you upgrade your car to match the AI, you should be able to have a close race. If you're a bit below the AI performance, it should be very hard. If you go beyond the AI, it will be easy. In GT, you'll win very easily in the same or similar machinery to the AI. Which is the problem.
The base speed of the AI absolutely needs to be improved, there is no question about that. Other games don't require you to nerf your own car to have a race.
- 882
- Spain
..and what if the event is for a fixed performance, like GT500? Do I drive a bit slower on purpose?
Picking a slower car also rarely produces good racing. The AI are slow in corners so you pick something with less power, get overtaken on the straight then easily pass them in the corner, rinse and repeat. You can't have a proper tussle because of the imbalance.
Better Ai to start with is the obviously better solution, as seen in other games.
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- 882
- Spain
What if it's still too easy?
- 882
- Spain
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