GT7 AI, will it improve?

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A.I might be what breaks the game for me if it's not up to scratch.

I'm not entirely against catch the rabbit racing style. It was a minor complaint I had in GT4. It only really became a massive problem in GT5P and beyond when you couldn't qualify and the gap between drivers was way too big. At least in GT4 you were bunched up like you're coming out of a Safety Car and can Qualify in Championship races

When I get the sense I'm fighting against the game due to mechanics or gimmicks that benefit the A.I instead of a sense of actually racing, I lose interest fast. I want a competitive race. Even in other Racing genres not sims, GRIP Combat Racing could've been so much better if the A.I actually knew how to race instead of the game just giving them ridiculous rubberbanding to make for how poorly programmed they are.

If we have to put with single file rolling starts, I'd only say "fine I'll live with it" if we have Qualifying. If it's a yes on catch the rabbit and no on Qualifying. I don't see why I don't just replay GT5P? Its the same fix.
 
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As I mentioned about AI being track dependent, there are times when the races are good. I've had some races where I didn't divebomb and I didn't pass on the outside and AI were keeping pace.

Some fuel/tyre wear races, the Slophy wouldn't pit and I'd lose the race because I had to pit. Other times, I'm fighting all race and I get ahead at one corner exit and AI just give up. AI for Beginner and Intermediate can be that way. For Professional, AI should or make a player earn each position. Last or first.
 
05XR8
As I mentioned about AI being track dependent, there are times when the races are good. I've had some races where I didn't divebomb and I didn't pass on the outside and AI were keeping pace.

Some fuel/tyre wear races, the Slophy wouldn't pit and I'd lose the race because I had to pit. Other times, I'm fighting all race and I get ahead at one corner exit and AI just give up. AI for Beginner and Intermediate can be that way. For Professional, AI should or make a player earn each position. Last or first.
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I don't agree Beginner or Int. A.I to just give up.

They just need to make more mistakes, programmed to slip up more often, break earlier and not hold the line as well as Pro. You can have beginner A.I still ask to player to fight for position, just not hard.
 
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RESHIRAM5
They just need to make more mistakes, programmed to slip up more often, break earlier and not hold the line as well as Pro. You can have beginner A.I still ask to player to fight for position, just not hard.
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I don't even think low level AI needs to make more mistakes. That would be a better replication of a low level player, but I'm not sure that it's better for low level players to race against. It's just one more potential hiccup to deal with for players who are already by definition not really that comfortable handling the car.

I think low level AI should be just as consistent as higher level AI (if not more so), but slower. Brake earlier, slower apex speeds, later on the accelerator. Having them be consistent makes it easier for players who are less confident with the car to trust that the AI will behave predictably and therefore they're safe to put their full attention on their own driving.

If anything, the high level AI is the one that should be making more mistakes. Divebombing corners that they have no real chance of making, trying moves around the outside that don't work, cutting curbs too much and spearing into barriers, we see all this in the highest levels of real life motorsport so clearly it's realistic. There isn't an F1 race that goes by without at least one of these highly experienced drivers driving cars worth millions of dollars doing something obviously daft. And that's not even counting Mazepin.

At a high level, learning the racecraft to deal with that sort of unpredictability is a big part of being a good driver. It's all well and good being quick around a hotlap, but if you can't stay safe for twenty laps in traffic with a bunch of morons doing their best to try and kill themselves then you'll never win a race. I think an AI that required that sort of driving from high level players would be great.
 
Watch some Ginetta Juniors or similar level racing. These are literally children, 14-17 year olds, taking part in usually what is their first experience of real race cars, after karts.



Yes they do make mistakes, of course, but even at this early stage in their career they are for the most part clean and consistent racers. Oh, and aggressive. They aren't locking up and going off at every corner. You don't need that from a beginner AI.
 
Samus
Watch some Ginetta Juniors or similar level racing. These are literally children, 14-17 year olds, taking part in usually what is their first experience of real race cars, after karts.



Yes they do make mistakes, of course, but even at this early stage in their career they are for the most part clean and consistent racers. Oh, and aggressive. They aren't locking up and going off at every corner. You don't need that from a beginner AI.
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Absolutely. That's why I always say that AI doesn't need to be any easier at the beginning. They need to be as aggressive and competitive as possible. The increase of difficulty should come from the cars themselves rather than from the AI. First driving with a miata and then beginning to learn little by little how to handle superior and more complex cars is a much more fun and realistic aspect. There shouldn't be an incentive to absolutely finish first at the beginning by dumbing down the AI to the ground. There is no personal reward in finishing 1st passing moving obstacles. There is a reward finishing third after an intense battle for the podium.
 
Imari
I don't even think low level AI needs to make more mistakes. That would be a better replication of a low level player, but I'm not sure that it's better for low level players to race against. It's just one more potential hiccup to deal with for players who are already by definition not really that comfortable handling the car.

I think low level AI should be just as consistent as higher level AI (if not more so), but slower. Brake earlier, slower apex speeds, later on the accelerator. Having them be consistent makes it easier for players who are less confident with the car to trust that the AI will behave predictably and therefore they're safe to put their full attention on their own driving.

If anything, the high level AI is the one that should be making more mistakes. Divebombing corners that they have no real chance of making, trying moves around the outside that don't work, cutting curbs too much and spearing into barriers, we see all this in the highest levels of real life motorsport so clearly it's realistic. There isn't an F1 race that goes by without at least one of these highly experienced drivers driving cars worth millions of dollars doing something obviously daft. And that's not even counting Mazepin.

At a high level, learning the racecraft to deal with that sort of unpredictability is a big part of being a good driver. It's all well and good being quick around a hotlap, but if you can't stay safe for twenty laps in traffic with a bunch of morons doing their best to try and kill themselves then you'll never win a race. I think an AI that required that sort of driving from high level players would be great.
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Fair enough, just simply widening the easier A.I racing line margin and breaking earlier would be enough.
 
For anyone rated A with 40k or above in GT Sport, making an AI that gives you competition is going to be difficult. Of all the racing games I've played, when I'm under equal or close to equal conditions to the AI (same car/category) I always beat them easily.

The only times I don't do it is when the AI has significantly better cars than me, rolling starts where the AI is half the circuit ahead of you and the race is only 4-5 laps or less... And when they are "challenging", it's the old rubber banding with the AI car suddenly making corners and top speeds that the car shouldn't be able to do.

I agree that the rolling races with the "pole sitter" being so far away have to be gone UNLESS it's a challenge event or mission. But for the championship races of career mode, qualifying and grid starts should be a must!!! It gives you a lot more immersion into racing itself.


... While making this post, I actually do remember AI in Gran Turismo 4, I think it was the Speedster Cup or the 206 Cups (or both?) where somehow they were incredibly difficult to beat even when I had the cars upgraded to the max. The 206 Cup was challenging and if I used the 206 Rally Car, it was easy, but the Speedster cup I think I remember you would win almost 200 A-Spec points even with your own Opel Speedster maxed out.
But in this case, I think the AI was upgraded even higher than what the player could. It was LEGIT the only race I've ever needed to actually setup the car in almost all components to have a better time against them, even with NOS and a wing.
However, I wouldn't call this "good AI", since it was just their cars doing the work and they were better than yours.

I WANT much challenging AI, but IMHO, I don't think PD will improve it much (if any)...
 
There's nothing lifelike about the AI. Even when there's no mistakes they are unnaturally smooth, and worryingly that's still visible in the trailers whenever they have a wide panning shot (they hide this where possible using hollywood stunt editing)

They just need to swallow their pride and poach someone who is capable of making those changes (like they did for sounds)
 
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Grimm6Jack
For anyone rated A with 40k or above in GT Sport, making an AI that gives you competition is going to be difficult. Of all the racing games I've played, when I'm under equal or close to equal conditions to the AI (same car/category) I always beat them easily.

The only times I don't do it is when the AI has significantly better cars than me, rolling starts where the AI is half the circuit ahead of you and the race is only 4-5 laps or less... And when they are "challenging", it's the old rubber banding with the AI car suddenly making corners and top speeds that the car shouldn't be able to do.

I agree that the rolling races with the "pole sitter" being so far away have to be gone UNLESS it's a challenge event or mission. But for the championship races of career mode, qualifying and grid starts should be a must!!! It gives you a lot more immersion into racing itself.


... While making this post, I actually do remember AI in Gran Turismo 4, I think it was the Speedster Cup or the 206 Cups (or both?) where somehow they were incredibly difficult to beat even when I had the cars upgraded to the max. The 206 Cup was challenging and if I used the 206 Rally Car, it was easy, but the Speedster cup I think I remember you would win almost 200 A-Spec points even with your own Opel Speedster maxed out.
But in this case, I think the AI was upgraded even higher than what the player could. It was LEGIT the only race I've ever needed to actually setup the car in almost all components to have a better time against them, even with NOS and a wing.
However, I wouldn't call this "good AI", since it was just their cars doing the work and they were better than yours.

I WANT much challenging AI, but IMHO, I don't think PD will improve it much (if any)...
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I’m not currently rated A, but I have been in the past and was over 40k.

I agree that making AI for players like me is extremely difficult.

However, have you ever tried PCARS or PCARS2?

Those games have full, proper, single player careers. You have to qualify, and there’s proper standing and rolling starts (not the GT nonsense).

Those games have an AI slider for both difficulty and aggression. I challenge anyone to beat that AI on max settings. It is very difficult. Usually, I have the AI set between 80 and 90, it goes as high as 120.

By no means is the AI perfect. Play the game long enough, you can find weird behaviour at certain situations or certain corners. For the most part though, it does a very good job.

I mean, I’ve set up 4 hour multi class endurance races in PCARS2, and had a totally immersive experience. I was battling the AI on track, wheel to wheel, skip streaming each other back and forth down the Mulsanne straight, while dodging around lapped traffic. I had to battle the AI on put strategy. Some of the AI full on crashed and retired. Some of the AI would crash and limp back to the pits, finish the race 3 laps down.

Incredibly immersive. Not perfect by any means, but leagues better than anything GT has ever produced.

And that was basically an indy game based on some kind of NFS engine.

It’s totally within the realm of possibility for PD to implement better AI, but PD being PD, they don’t want to spend the resources to hire the right people, and would rather try to reinvent the wheel themselves.
 
I'm optimistic it'll be better than GTS, which was way better than the chase-the-rabbit situation we had with GT6, apparently, so yeah, I expect a steady improvement and would be delighted if the quality suddenly took a leap with GT7.

Any improvement over GTS would be awesome for me 'cause I'm still on GT6, so even a GTS equivalent would I assume be much-better for me, let alone a further improvement.
 
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Gee, really mate?

So to be clear, it was also typically a super-slow field with one standout car miles ahead? If so, bummer.
 
Monkey Man
Gee, really mate?

So to be clear, it was also typically a super-slow field with one standout car miles ahead? If so, bummer.
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Pretty much, yes. Start last, leader 20-50 seconds down the road. It also still had the boost function so you catch up to the leader at a rate of 10-15 seconds a lap faster, then they manage to sit on your bumper the next few laps. Utter garbage, quite frankly.
 
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Wow man.

I haven't noticed the boost in GT6 but it was obvious in an earlier version or versions, the ol' rubber-banding.

Been racing the AI in Arcade Mode exclusively in GT6 since the server was shut down (in early 2014?) and it's not great only chasing 1 car in every race, but geez man, I'm surprised to hear rubber-banding was reintroduced for GTS.
 
Samus
Watch some Ginetta Juniors or similar level racing. These are literally children, 14-17 year olds, taking part in usually what is their first experience of real race cars, after karts.



Yes they do make mistakes, of course, but even at this early stage in their career they are for the most part clean and consistent racers. Oh, and aggressive. They aren't locking up and going off at every corner. You don't need that from a beginner AI.
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If the racing in GT7 is anywhere near as good as this, I'll have a blast.
 
This clip coincides with damage model.

Did a mock B12H(15 minutes) 48x time transistion clear conditions. At the finish, wondered how Matt Campbell was +4Lap and Nick Percat was +1Lap.


Love this game. If the AI can make similar “realistic” mistakes and retire for certain collisions, it adds to the endurance immersion.
 
With the new trailer. Pretty much confirms we're still doing single file chase the rabbit races.

Now the last hope is there is Qualifying but doubtful
 
Chasing the rabbit is fine as long as all the AI are rabbits!
From that video, the RX-V is the mover & shaker. How the, Huyara(Hyuara? Hoorah?)Carrera GT, McLaren and Ford GT behind, haven’t caught up, are still a worry.
 
05XR8
Chasing the rabbit is fine as long as all the AI are rabbits!
From that video, the RX-V is the mover & shaker. How the, Huyara(Hyuara? Hoorah?)Carrera GT, McLaren and Ford GT behind, haven’t caught up, are still a worry.
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I don't agree.

It's fine when it's some side mission challenge, like those missions in GT4 or even Seasonal Events. But being forced in some ridiculous handicapped scenario ruins the immersion of participating in a proper race. One of things I loved about GT3 and GT4 was how several of the events felt like you participating in some sort racing Championship at the time and wasn't just a typical game level (GT4 was a bit iffy as some races were catch the rabbit but Championships gave you a Qualifying option). The Super GT events were by far the best events in GT5 and GT6 because while not qualifying sucked, they were double file starts

MadMax97
Actually the AI feels better compared to GT sport
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I'm not talking about the A.I behaviour specifically. But how the races with A.I are set up. A.I could be top notch but this kind of racing layout lowers their potential
 
RESHIRAM5
I don't agree.

It's fine when it's some side mission challenge, like those missions in GT4 or even Seasonal Events. But being forced in some ridiculous handicapped scenario ruins the immersion of participating in a proper race. One of things I loved about GT3 and GT4 was how several of the events felt like you participating in some sort racing Championship at the time and wasn't just a typical game level (GT4 was a bit iffy as some races were catch the rabbit but Championships gave you a Qualifying option). The Super GT events were by far the best events in GT5 and GT6 because while not qualifying sucked, they were double file starts


I'm not talking about the A.I behaviour specifically. But how the races with A.I are set up. A.I could be top notch but this kind of racing layout lowers their potential
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So you agree. A full field of competitive AI, is better than chase the one AI.
 
05XR8
So you agree. A full field of competitive AI, is better than chase the one AI.
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Not that it matters much if all we're doing is playing the same catch up seasonal challenge ever race :lol:
 
Gran Turismo series traditionally allows you to enter the event with a significantly more powerful (or better tuned) car. No matter how well the AI drives, they won't beat you when you're driving a better car. Likewise, mediocre AI also could beat you as long as they drive significantly faster cars. In other words, if you want a competitive fight, the very first thing they should implement is not a competitive AI. They should either make it impossible to bring better (or different) cars, or they should auto scale the performance of AI cars.

And that's merely a half of what it needs to be done, since any experienced players almost guaranteed to beat the AI when they're driving the exact same car/setup. To make it competitive, you need to give AIs some edge. This is not a particularly easy problem to solve. Say the event only allows you to enter with N600 cars. You know some N600 cars are faster than others, and some of them could be faster than higher tier cars depending on tracks, even before the upgrade. And you also need to consider the effect of uprgade, tuning, etc.

So simply giving N700 cars to AI just doesn't cut it (it may work on some tracks but it's likely to be either too fast or too slow on most tracks). You need a method to quickly and accurately calculate the estimated lap time, tune setup by setup, upgrade by upgrade, car by car, track by track basis. Without it, you can't know which car is faster than the others (not to mention which one is fast enough to make things competitive), thus impossible to give faster enough cars (but not too fast) to AI.

This is not a simple problem to implement the perfectly working solution. Many games already had similar features but they're all nowhere close to perfect. For example, do every A700 car on Forza Motorsport have the same lap time potential on every track? Absolutely not (some are significantly faster than others, and it varies depending on tracks). Is A700 car faster than A699? Absolutely not (almost no correlation there). Does the tuning make an impact to lap time? Absolutely yes, but the performance indicator (as well as performance match system) just abandon the tuning altogether. Also, this is not a feature that universally/urgently wanted from everybody. As a result, most games don't do this (at least no one actively try to implement the perfect performance match system, which is basically the very foundation of competitive matching).

There are many easy workarounds. For arcade racing games, the most common method is, just make AI cars to move fast by completely ignoring the physics engine. For non-arcade racing games, suddenly boosting the speed of AI car to 700km/h mid corner to make them follow you is an unacceptable behavior, hence they typically use a variety of methods in parallel to combat this issue (e.g. forbid players to drive vastly different cars, basic performance match system which is designed to give some edge on AI cars depending on difficulty settings, limit the player's car to one and figure out what's the best time possible for the car on that specific track by testing it manually with a good game tester and subsequently adjust the AI cars to hit the similar lap time, etc). I expect GT7 to adopt some of these methods, but I don't expect them to implement a perfect solution as that's very hard to come up with.
 
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We need to know why the AI programming in GT5-GTS, allow AI to slam on the brakes mid-corner. That’s most of the problem solved right there.

Sure, many of us want PD to program cars that equal the cars we tune from our garages. That’s definitely in the wish lists.

Again, we need to know why the AI programming in GTS, allow the AI to crawl through Sulman Park at Mount Panorama. The AI programming navigate the rest of the course with a bit of speed. Why are the AI programmed to nearly stop through the exit of the Chicane of Death?
I’m not versed in AI programming, but it can’t be too hard to tell the AI to maintain a quicker pace through the sections of track I mentioned. It’s not like the AI have to navigate the Nurburgring.

Mentioned more than a few times, PD put the call out for an AI writer. The AI we see at DeeForested, appear to be a bit tidier when bunched up. The cars aren’t bucking with brake/accelerating to adjust corner speed, as the AI do in GTS.
One mo’ tyme… this could be track specific. In GTS, AI behave differently in certain combinations.
In my Bathurst example, I’ve seen Gr.1 AI cars navigate much quickly. Also, when using certain Gr.X cars like the Cobra Coupe and Alfa TZ2 and in some One Make Gr.4 races, AI are more competitive at that same section of track.
Is down to complexity of distance to reaction time! The zeros and ones don’t compute? I have no idea.

I do know, if I boot up ACC and PC2, depending on AI speed & aggrsssion setting, I can trust the AI won’t brake check me… at every track.
 
I havent read all the comments here but im convinced from the latest video its a step in the right direction.
I dont know how quick the player was but the mazda was pulling away?

They looked way more aggressive without all the strange braking midcorner and repetitive accelerator tapping.
 
Caution with the cars used in that clip. A Pagani looked to be last, with an F1, Carrera GT and Ford GT ‘17, behind the “user” Murcielago. Don’t know the power output of the RX-V. If it’s close to the RX-V GT3(540-570bhp) and maybe lightweight(1200-1300kg), it’ll be a weapon. It did pass a ZL1 in the High Speed Ring clip.

Anyway, the cars ahead were the P1 8C, P2 M4, C7, Vantage, F-Type and AMG GT R. The grid seems to be slowest to fastest or least hp to most hp. Still have to see More game play.
 

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