GT7 and SimHub Tactile discussion

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte
I am not sure and can only speak for myself but as far as i understood we will all need the same hardware to join your group. Thats makes Sense so everybody Talks about the same.

But people like me already have Their Parts together and are just looking for ideal settings. I would be Interested in a group trying out different stuff and giving feedback.

But i will Not buy a new Setup for that.

I hope i was understanding you Right. Otherwise just ignore this post 😂

Hi, okay yes lets first understand these points below....
Do you like long answers (lol)?

How do we determine ideal effects to use and offer created profiles for people, when different people have...

1. Different amps
2. Different transducers / exciters / shakers
3. Different soundcards
4. Different installation methods
5. Different seats
6. Different pedals
7. Different sims used and supported effects
8. Different user preferences
9. Different effect and profile settings


Even those people at Simhub Discord or GV Discord.
When they set out to make an effect, it is possible to have it operate with frequencies that are commonly supported within the frequency range many of the popular models use. Yet this does not eliminate all the factors listed above and that those different units will each have their own differences in how they actually perform with different frequencies.

Also, you could use the same amp/soundcard and settings in Simhub with two different makes/models of units.
Yet the felt sensation from each may not just be the same, or will they necessarily feel best with the same settings.

So for me personally, the concept that we can put different makes/models of units into (operating frequency ranges) as a way to group them. It may bring some success but is still flawed or limited in the approach of trying to have profiles and effects pre-made that will do the following.

A) work great for everyone
B) reduce the time and effort by a user to try to tune the effects to suit their 1-9 combinations
C) let the user experience the effects as they were meant to feel

My question is, even those out their making some of the best effects and also doing clever things with *custom coded effects.
The felt sensations that effect offers from its low-high operations based on the generated telemety. The person building that effect will have it, built to how it may feel good on the hardware and setup they own/use. Yet at the same time making it that the effect operates within the (frequency ranges) for the intended selection of hardware.

This offers some compatibility that at least the effect can operate. Yet my own approach is now focusing, on making effects suited to a unit (I believe based on tests is the optimal solution) one, that has much more potential in its generated felt sensations as it can simply work from a much wider operating window. This also means not only can effects be created beyond those limitations, so by design my own effects can be made to feel better/deeper to effects others might have made to date or I have made in the past.


They are seeking to make effects work on a range of potential options and all of those have similar restrictions in performance but also differences in the output characteristics and peak frequencies. Or the unit the effects creator actuall used is maybe not the best neither.

I am seeking to make effects that feel more immersive, on a solution with more potential in its abilities, but so that the user can experience fully as intended what, that effect was made to produce.


I dont know what effects you or other are using at this point.
How are the Good Vibrations effects working for you or others?

So my point here is, how does anyone know or can assure all the effort they put into how their effects may feel.
Can be certain, the community will experience that effect in the same way it was for them.

This does not mean, users cannot enjoy what is offered, even if how those effects feel on their setup is not quite the same as intended. They still, may be happy but then they also have no way of really knowing if what they do experience is close to what it should really be like.

Listen, I am sick to the teeth with how furstrating tactile is and espically for newcomers to it with so many different options and confusion. It is also quite annoying to put a lot of effort into making excellent effects, to then have people try them on hardware that is not capable of properly delivering them. Then for those people think they are not that good.

All I can tell you is, it is only when we seek to reduce the problems above, can we focus on improving tactile user friendlyness and deliver the benefits in performance the solution I am sharing/working towards offers. It is different in the approach, it is different in applying musical octaves with effects and it targets simplifing having the ability to be able to share user profiles with others.

I believe it is possible based on my testing/research so far and all this forms the basis of what I am doing with my own rig build.
No other appoach, I know of focuses on delivering as high a level of performance for so little money, yet at the same time offers people the ability to scale their configuration in steps over time and can have effects specifically adapted for either low budget (additional low bass extension) or high budget (additional low bass extension) models of hardware.

What people decide to do is their choice, I am only highlighting the issues and sharing my own knowledge/experiences with a potential solution. If someone is interested or has questions then fire away...

 

[Unit-Black]

Hi, okay yes lets first understand these points below....
Do you like long answers (lol)?

How do we determine ideal effects to use and offer created profiles for people, when different people have...

1. Different amps
2. Different transducers / exciters / shakers
3. Different soundcards
4. Different installation methods
5. Different seats
6. Different pedals
7. Different sims used and supported effects
8. Different user preferences
9. Different effect and profile settings


Even those people at Simhub Discord or GV Discord.
When they set out to make an effect, it is possible to have it operate with frequencies that are commonly supported within the frequency range many of the popular models use. Yet this does not eliminate all the factors listed above and that those different units will each have their own differences in how they actually perform with different frequencies.

Also, you could use the same amp/soundcard and settings in Simhub with two different makes/models of units.
Yet the felt sensation from each may not just be the same, or will they necessarily feel best with the same settings.

So for me personally, the concept that we can put different makes/models of units into (operating frequency ranges) as a way to group them. It may bring some success but is still flawed or limited in the approach of trying to have profiles and effects pre-made that will do the following.

A) work great for everyone
B) reduce the time and effort by a user to try to tune the effects to suit their 1-9 combinations
C) let the user experience the effects as they were meant to feel

My question is, even those out their making some of the best effects and also doing clever things with *custom coded effects.
The felt sensations that effect offers from its low-high operations based on the generated telemety. The person building that effect will have it, built to how it may feel good on the hardware and setup they own/use. Yet at the same time making it that the effect operates within the (frequency ranges) for the intended selection of hardware.

This offers some compatibility that at least the effect can operate. Yet my own approach is now focusing, on making effects suited to a unit (I believe based on tests is the optimal solution) one, that has much more potential in its generated felt sensations as it can simply work from a much wider operating window. This also means not only can effects be created beyond those limitations, so by design my own effects can be made to feel better/deeper to effects others might have made to date or I have made in the past.


They are seeking to make effects work on a range of potential options and all of those have similar restrictions in performance but also differences in the output characteristics and peak frequencies. Or the unit the effects creator actuall used is maybe not the best neither.

I am seeking to make effects that feel more immersive, on a solution with more potential in its abilities, but so that the user can experience fully as intended what, that effect was made to produce.


I dont know what effects you or other are using at this point.
How are the Good Vibrations effects working for you or others?

So my point here is, how does anyone know or can assure all the effort they put into how their effects may feel.
Can be certain, the community will experience that effect in the same way it was for them.

This does not mean, users cannot enjoy what is offered, even if how those effects feel on their setup is not quite the same as intended. They still, may be happy but then they also have no way of really knowing if what they do experience is close to what it should really be like.

Listen, I am sick to the teeth with how furstrating tactile is and espically for newcomers to it with so many different options and confusion. It is also quite annoying to put a lot of effort into making excellent effects, to then have people try them on hardware that is not capable of properly delivering them. Then for those people think they are not that good.

All I can tell you is, it is only when we seek to reduce the problems above, can we focus on improving tactile user friendlyness and deliver the benefits in performance the solution I am sharing/working towards offers. It is different in the approach, it is different in applying musical octaves with effects and it targets simplifing having the ability to be able to share user profiles with others.

I believe it is possible based on my testing/research so far and all this forms the basis of what I am doing with my own rig build.
No other appoach, I know of focuses on delivering as high a level of performance for so little money, yet at the same time offers people the ability to scale their configuration in steps over time and can have effects specifically adapted for either low budget (additional low bass extension) or high budget (additional low bass extension) models of hardware.

What people decide to do is their choice, I am only highlighting the issues and sharing my own knowledge/experiences with a potential solution. If someone is interested or has questions then fire away...

Okay.. let me sum it up how i understood it. Different Rigs/Hardware, different Settings are needed.

Makes Sense, i just dont know how you Need a 12 paper essay to make that clear 😂

 

[hawkeyez]

Okay.. let me sum it up how i understood it. Different Rigs/Hardware, different Settings are needed.

Makes Sense, i just dont know how you Need a 12 paper essay to make that clear 😂

it’s not only that but everyone is gonna feel it differently and have different tastes in effects. I know some don’t care for gear shift, I set mine up to not give me specific feedback but to feel more like I was sitting in a car.

Ideally if you set the effects up right, you shouldn’t feel much of anything if you’re driving well and not locking up your brakes or losing traction. You set it so you only feel it when you’re pushing the car too far. That didn’t appeal to me so I went the other way.

bought these shakers I’m gonna make sure I feel them while I drive. Haha. Gear shift, wheel lock, engine vibration, road bumps and speed with curve. That was one that I was happy I put in, when I take a hard right corner, the left side of my seat rumbles lightly. I will share my settings next time I’m racing but again I don’t think it’s going to be of much use to anyone.

 

[Mr Latte]

it’s not only that but everyone is gonna feel it differently and have different tastes in effects. I know some don’t care for gear shift, I set mine up to not give me specific feedback but to feel more like I was sitting in a car.

Ideally if you set the effects up right, you shouldn’t feel much of anything if you’re driving well and not locking up your brakes or losing traction. You set it so you only feel it when you’re pushing the car too far. That didn’t appeal to me so I went the other way.

bought these shakers I’m gonna make sure I feel them while I drive. Haha. Gear shift, wheel lock, engine vibration, road bumps and speed with curve. That was one that I was happy I put in, when I take a hard right corner, the left side of my seat rumbles lightly. I will share my settings next time I’m racing but thers use.

Differences in preferences but also the part I enjoy. What character do we determine to have applied for different effects.

Some of the wheelslip effects I have felt seem like you say overactive. Almost giving a response with every little wheel turn. I agree better to have an effect highlight a level of slip that isnt so sensitive. Matching the effects operation with cars that have dashboard lights can be a good start for tweaking.

Some I think try to use the slip effect to offer road feel. This can be better represented and differently with other effects

Personally I implemented low speed and high speed scenarios, to feel very different with new effects via textures and speed.

So low speed increases the surface or tyre detail sensation and high speed builds up to represent chassis/road noise.

This again using frequencies that cant be experienced properly with frequency restricted units, but its the only way to get certain felt sensations that better represent each scenario and bring a broader range of feel over low-high speed sections of track. This also alters based on each cars speeds achieved too.

As for gearshift, even G-Force can be applied to generate a felt sensation as the car dips forward/back when gearshift is activated.

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay.. let me sum it up how i understood it. Different Rigs/Hardware, different Settings are needed.

Makes Sense, i just dont know how you Need a 12 paper essay to make that clear 😂

I was going to do a 15 Page.....

The bottom line is, how do we improve on the 1-9 and deliver quality effects reaching an overall, more enjoyable user experience.

 

[hawkeyez]

Differences in preferences but also the part I enjoy. What character do we determine to have applied for different effects.

Some of the wheelslip effects I have felt seem like you say overactive. Almost giving a response with every little wheel turn. I agree better to have an effect highlight a level of slip that isnt so sensitive. Matching the effects operation with cars that have dashboard lights can be a good start for tweaking.

Some I think try to use the slip effect to offer road feel. This can be better represented and differently with other effects

Personally I implemented low speed and high speed scenarios, to feel very different with new effects via textures and speed.

So low speed increases the surface or tyre detail sensation and high speed builds up to represent chassis/road noise.

This again using frequencies that cant be experienced properly with frequency restricted units, but its the only way to get certain felt sensations that better represent each scenario and bring a broader range of feel over low-high speed sections of track. This also alters based on each cars speeds achieved too.

As for gearshift, even G-Force can be applied to generate a felt sensation as the car dips forward/back when gearshift is activated.

Wheel lock or whatever it is, I have set to like 97 so I only feel it when my brake is almost all the way down. I only use that to help me know how much pressure I’m applying to the brake.

 

[Revengel]

As I want to help those who are new, I wanted to post my setup and my experiences. I'll break this into sections and hide them behind spoilers in an attempt to make my post a bit easier to digest.

Spoiler: My Personal Setup

First: My Rig. Rigs matter.

I have a GT Racer cockpit from Next Level Racing. Important parts of this are:

• Steel tubular frame
• Reclining seat which is on sliders.
• Included Buttkicker Mount
• Included Shift Arm
• Solid (non-moving) pedal plate

What I put on my rig:

• Mounted my Logitech G923 wheel & pedals
• Mounted my Logitech Driving Force Shifter
• Buttkicker Gamer Plus

The rig rests on carpet over foam tile.

Spoiler: How I Mounted my Buttkicker Gamer Plus

Next: How I mounted the Buttkicker. Location - like real estate - is a huge factor.

I installed the BK mount on the rear portion of the seat frame. The square frame has holes for the BK mount to be attached either at the front or the back. Location is key and will be a personal preference. Additionally, I used M6 Air Conditioning Washers (cheap of Amazon) and placed them between the washers and the frame of the seat. This helps to isolate vibrations a bit. Currently, I have only one transducer mounted to the rig.

The bolt-washer pattern is as follows:

Bolt --> Washer --> Rubber Washer --> Chassis Frame --> Seat Frame --> Butterfly Nut.

This provides a small bit of isolation between where I want to feel the buzz (seat) and the rest of the rig. As mentioned earlier, I also have the whole thing on carpet with foam tiles beneath the carpet. The rig is in the basement on Linoleum tiles over concrete. Nobody has reported hearing the BK (I've asked the family) and there are no closed doors between where the rig is located and the stairs leading up to the living room.

Hope that helps.

Spoiler: What I Decided to Highlight in SimHub

SimHub: What I Chose to Highlight. After all, this is what we're here for.

I took the approach of classifying effects into two categories:

• Information (I). Effects that provide information and can be used for performance. Things like traction loss, G-forces, etc. can tell you quite a bit about how you're pushing the car.
• Feeling (F). Effects that add to the enjoyment and the feeling of being in a real car. Things like the "thud" of a gear shift fall directly here.

Some effects can and do count in both categories. Initially I was going to create separate profiles - one for Immersion/Fun and one for Performance/Information - but currently I love these settings for both reasons. I do label each Sim Hub effect based on my perception of Information vs. Feeling. Again, some effects count as both in my opinion.

Spoiler: Specific SimHub Settings

Here's what I did specifically in SimHub:

• Engine Effects: Gear Shift (F) 78% @ 25Hz, RPM (I/F) set very low (4%) and a medium Hz (38/50), Engine Vibration 6% (cannot tune Hz on this) and Missed Gear (F) 94% at 34/50Hz.
• Suspension Effects: Road Vibration (F/I) 13% @ 50Hz w/ White Noise (+/-10Hz), Road Impacts (I/F) 20% @25Hz w/ White Noise (+/-5Hz) and Road Texture (F) 4% @ 48 Hz w/ White Noise (+/- 10Hz)
• Wheel Effects: Wheels Lock (I) 81% @ 16HZ, Wheels Slip (I) 23% @ 30HZ w/ White Noise (+/- 10Hz) [SH says GT7 does not provide accurate Wheel Slip information], Traction Loss (I) 97% @ 18Hz and TC Active (I) 100% @44Hz.

[*]A short bit about White Noise: This setting provides a bit of variance in the vibration effects. Why would you want that? Rarely do we have road texture that is actually uniform. Most of the time we feel the texture as something with a bit of variation.

Spoiler: My Personal Results

With these settings I get the following:

• Engine Vibration and RPMs don't override important information. By having these set so low, I only notice them when I get closer to the redline of the engine. When I have it set higher, it becomes more of a continuous hum that can drown everything else.
• Road Vibration is tuned down for the same reason. The key is to have this as a gentle hum in the background, but still allow the redline, impacts and the like jump out during a session.
• I always know when the rear is going to step out. The consistent, deep vibrations of the rear wheel when I'm about to and have lost traction in the rear is both great to prevent actual slip of the rear during a race (last week's group C with the GR86) as well as pushing into that during drift missions (I've already upgraded from Silver to Gold in one mission and from Bronze to Silver in another) is a gigantic advantage for me. Your mileage may vary.
• These settings allow me to better control and have fun in any car I'm driving. "The Ex-Girlfriend" a.k.a. The Miura is well on the way to becoming the signature weapon it was in my hands during GT5 & GT6. My Engine Swapped Pantera and modified 512BB are great weapons below 600PP at Spa. The GR86 at Autopolis and (less so) 650 in Group 4 in Kyoto are examples of this.

In the end, I have even more fun in VR with these settings in Gran Turismo 7 - be that online races or single player sessions.

TL;DR version: On a Next Level Racing GT Racer rig, I was able to isolate my BK to gain more immersion and control on the track in any car I use. This led to more fun using my settings in SimHub and hopefully others can use my settings as a starting point for a single Buttkicker.

How much do I believe this? I've added both Buttkicker and SimHub decals to all liveries I use in Gran Turismo 7 for daily races and streams.

Hopefully this helps you, or someone else.

- Revengel

 

[ggmaestri]

Hey guys! I will share here the settings I use. I have two 50w BassShakers from China. One of them is installed behind the seat and the other under the pedals. I use an amplifier that I also acquired from China with two 100w outputs. It's a good profile in terms of immersion.

 

[ggmaestri]

Hey guys! I will share here the settings I use. I have two 50w BassShakers from China. One of them is installed behind the seat and the other under the pedals. I use an amplifier that I also acquired from China with two 100w outputs. It's a good profile in terms of immersion.

You can adjust the volume of each effect if you prefer

 

[Mr Latte]

Wheel lock or whatever it is, I have set to like 97 so I only feel it when my brake is almost all the way down. I only use that to help me know how much pressure I’m applying to the brake.

Are you meaning ABS by chance instead of wheelock?
Just a friendly reminder, we are still waiting on seeing the frequencies you use for effects you said you would share. It is only fair that if you debate things and highlight how much you enjoy the tactile you use or what it achieves. That we give viewers here more perspective to back up your own claims. This way it helps illustrate to followers here, to let them gain a better perecption in our differences regards approaches or what we both use or may experience.

You backed out last time, are you for side stepping this again?


Seems you are applying a quite simplistic, on/off solution and no doubt others apply this too.
I suppose, it works when you want it to work and can be used as a driving aid and for some this may be enough.

Slip & Lock
Traction Loss
Wheels Slip
Wheels Lock
Wheels Spin & Lock
TC Active
ABS Active


Which Is It?
Although "wheelslip" and "wheellock" can be used independently and also separate from ABS to present very different felt characteristics to then represent each scenario better. Additionally an effect like G-Force is also very good to accompany wheelslip in some scenarios but it takes quite a bit of effort with effects creation to get all those to feel nice, to then work well together and for each to have felt sensations generated that are not too similar in feel.

Based on my own experiences with tactile I would say all this is not possible on (frequency restricted transducers/exciters) it is just the reality of the limitations a lot of the budget tactile hardware people own has. So that defines how good or even what (in frequencies) feels good enough to use on such hardware.

This point would be proved if several of you post the frequencies you use in effects. This could show how restricted perhaps what some of you may feel, in how it varies in the felt sensations the effects are producing and how well the units you have actually produce those frequencies used.


Possibilities / Different Approach Example:
Those making more advanced effects in this area (not just me) are seeking to bring more responsive and detailed sensations.
Here, though is my own take on this....

To have "small slip" represented with "light" feeling sensation and then as the slip amount increases during oversteer/understeer scenarios have this move towards "deeper" feeling sensation. In a "high" slip scenario, the whole chassis of the car can be moving more, not just wheels/tyres spinning. Should well thought out and crafted effects not highlight this, one example being the car spinning out of control. In this scenario I then question, well why are we also not representing g-forces, speed and other effects that also too are active in "that scenario". How, can we create for them their own sensations and deploy these most effectively into the body?

Now you have a varying range of felt sensation that is more natural and increases/decreases in not just volume/strength of a static frequency, but also shifting in frequency based on applied settings.

"Front" and "Rear" slip can also be given their own representation (not just using wheelslip as an ABS type indicator) and some scenarios their may be more slip to the "Front" or more to the "Rear" so producing different sensations to the pedals/seat. This also depends on how it is configured, as some may want to apply left/right or front/rear or corner based operation regards how the slip is output to different units installed.


THE NEW "MUST HAVE" IN SIM HARDWARE = ABS
Here is a very interesting video and comparison as this guy does something many of the hardware reviewers failed to do.
I applaud his honesty and in-depth explanation.

He compares the most expensive Simucube pedals with their own haptics to the Simagic HPR. In this video, he mentions for him how @5Hz-10Hz feels more accurate as a sensation and not like a machine gun style or repeated lumpy/thump we feel with higher frequencies being applied...



Question:
What are you guys using in Hz for ABS?
Please state the model of unit and frequency you use?


What I can tell you folks here,(once again) that the BDS exciter with well crafted effects is on another level in what it can deliver in felt sensations as well as its application of different effects, and not just useful for ABS.

Note, that every owner of the HPR, I have privately helped with this approach has instantly felt benefits and improvements. Yet as I have mentioned, just look around at the "OMG" reactions the HPR has got from the online community. So it must be the best right?
Also based on that products huge success in sales, we now see other companies bringing their own solutions.

This is why I recently approached a "youtube hardware reviewer", to say lets get you to better understand tactile, then lets get you to experience many of the popular models, and lets compare those to what I have been doing. At the same time this person is free to say what they like, based on their own findings and preferences. To date this is a video that I believe is missing from any of the popular hardware reviewers. I also do not think Simucube want a reviewer to say btw you can get "better tactiles" with a $35 exciter than on these $2000 pedals. Their product is not just about haptics as it brings many other advantages to standard pedals but how useful those are may vary based on users. Exactly as the owner in the above video highlighted.

Lets just keep focus on the haptics, you can see where I am coming from but we seriously need to consider giving the community a clear direction in what they should now consider in 2024. A solution that delivers high performance at low price entry and is expandable, rather than just doing what people have been doing and using in hardware for the last 10+ years. Things have moved on, what we can do has improved and some people in the community can create rather impressive and excellent effects (even with different approaches). Things are such a mess with so many opinions/methods and options regards tactile. I just believe and want, to bring the community much better tactile sensations with a tried/tested and high performance solution than what most of you may already be experiencing.


ABS Effect
Getting back to ABS, this particular effect is of interest to many and Simhub is rather limited in controls or options with it. My own approach to this, I found it is possible to combine two (octave related frequency layers) with their own settings, to generate a felt sensation a user may prefer to that of a single frequency being used. Yet what I noticed several owners/people also discovered is how the HPR deploys the frequency (piston based unit) is more thud like and less detailed too. Some are so shocked at how good they thought the HPR was to effects I then let them experience with the BDS so I know already based on feedback I am not just dellusional guys. It is advice, to be considered or ignored.


This is not to come off as smug, yet some of you also need to be realistic in what you use, how it is installed and the effects you use with that. As to where you really are with things to what the potential is with tactile. Some may be keen to learn or ensure they make good choices, others tend to do what they want anyways and make do with what they have.

Brutal Truth?
Is it also fair to say that youtube is full of people telling you what is cool with tactile yet they themselves (not in all cases) but often have very little experiences with it or in different models of units? Or how to go about making good effects in Simhub?

It amuses me, still in 2024 not one of the leading hardware based channels for sim racing has properly tackled this in comparing different hardware options, installations or ways effects are created and applied. It's so deep of a topic that even they have stayed clear of it. Some will still even promote corners installation as being the best approach when time and time it has been proven (by those that compared) that is not the best way to achieve multi-dimensional tactile or to try and maintain stereo operation and seperation with supported effects.


*Currently I have an ongoing profile with several effects including ABS in private tests specifically for the BDS exciter which operates with single frequencies of 5Hz up with a few experimental options applying octaves. It is unlikely these will operate well on popular units like BST1 or TT25 pucks based on such low frequencies. I am told even units like the BST 300EX struggle with representing well frequencies below @15Hz?

*You have all been given a product to consider buying and testing for yourselves that can greatly advance how good effects can feel.
I have offered to do group chat based on this model being used with specific hardware, to achieve a fixed hardware solution. Owners would then be able to test and experiment with effects I can provide with a focus on GT7 or other supported titles.

With this, effects I have worked on specifically for this approach I have, can then be enjoyed and experienced as intended for units in the pedals only, or pedals and suitable seats to install the units onto. Some user d.i.y may be needed but that thread or help will not come, unless people are willing to follow those requirements in this approach I can offer. Therefore it is upto people here if they wish to commit to buying into that as a solution and even want such a thread to be made, but either way it is upto those here to decide.