GT7 and SimHub Tactile discussion

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte
I am not sure and can only speak for myself but as far as i understood we will all need the same hardware to join your group. Thats makes Sense so everybody Talks about the same.

But people like me already have Their Parts together and are just looking for ideal settings. I would be Interested in a group trying out different stuff and giving feedback.

But i will Not buy a new Setup for that.

I hope i was understanding you Right. Otherwise just ignore this post 😂

Hi, okay yes lets first understand these points below....
Do you like long answers (lol)?

How do we determine ideal effects to use and offer created profiles for people, when different people have...

1. Different amps
2. Different transducers / exciters / shakers
3. Different soundcards
4. Different installation methods
5. Different seats
6. Different pedals
7. Different sims used and supported effects
8. Different user preferences
9. Different effect and profile settings


Even those people at Simhub Discord or GV Discord.
When they set out to make an effect, it is possible to have it operate with frequencies that are commonly supported within the frequency range many of the popular models use. Yet this does not eliminate all the factors listed above and that those different units will each have their own differences in how they actually perform with different frequencies.

Also, you could use the same amp/soundcard and settings in Simhub with two different makes/models of units.
Yet the felt sensation from each may not just be the same, or will they necessarily feel best with the same settings.

So for me personally, the concept that we can put different makes/models of units into (operating frequency ranges) as a way to group them. It may bring some success but is still flawed or limited in the approach of trying to have profiles and effects pre-made that will do the following.

A) work great for everyone
B) reduce the time and effort by a user to try to tune the effects to suit their 1-9 combinations
C) let the user experience the effects as they were meant to feel

My question is, even those out their making some of the best effects and also doing clever things with *custom coded effects.
The felt sensations that effect offers from its low-high operations based on the generated telemety. The person building that effect will have it, built to how it may feel good on the hardware and setup they own/use. Yet at the same time making it that the effect operates within the (frequency ranges) for the intended selection of hardware.

This offers some compatibility that at least the effect can operate. Yet my own approach is now focusing, on making effects suited to a unit (I believe based on tests is the optimal solution) one, that has much more potential in its generated felt sensations as it can simply work from a much wider operating window. This also means not only can effects be created beyond those limitations, so by design my own effects can be made to feel better/deeper to effects others might have made to date or I have made in the past.


They are seeking to make effects work on a range of potential options and all of those have similar restrictions in performance but also differences in the output characteristics and peak frequencies. Or the unit the effects creator actuall used is maybe not the best neither.

I am seeking to make effects that feel more immersive, on a solution with more potential in its abilities, but so that the user can experience fully as intended what, that effect was made to produce.


I dont know what effects you or other are using at this point.
How are the Good Vibrations effects working for you or others?

So my point here is, how does anyone know or can assure all the effort they put into how their effects may feel.
Can be certain, the community will experience that effect in the same way it was for them.

This does not mean, users cannot enjoy what is offered, even if how those effects feel on their setup is not quite the same as intended. They still, may be happy but then they also have no way of really knowing if what they do experience is close to what it should really be like.

Listen, I am sick to the teeth with how furstrating tactile is and espically for newcomers to it with so many different options and confusion. It is also quite annoying to put a lot of effort into making excellent effects, to then have people try them on hardware that is not capable of properly delivering them. Then for those people think they are not that good.

All I can tell you is, it is only when we seek to reduce the problems above, can we focus on improving tactile user friendlyness and deliver the benefits in performance the solution I am sharing/working towards offers. It is different in the approach, it is different in applying musical octaves with effects and it targets simplifing having the ability to be able to share user profiles with others.

I believe it is possible based on my testing/research so far and all this forms the basis of what I am doing with my own rig build.
No other appoach, I know of focuses on delivering as high a level of performance for so little money, yet at the same time offers people the ability to scale their configuration in steps over time and can have effects specifically adapted for either low budget (additional low bass extension) or high budget (additional low bass extension) models of hardware.

What people decide to do is their choice, I am only highlighting the issues and sharing my own knowledge/experiences with a potential solution. If someone is interested or has questions then fire away...

 

[Unit-Black]

Hi, okay yes lets first understand these points below....
Do you like long answers (lol)?

How do we determine ideal effects to use and offer created profiles for people, when different people have...

1. Different amps
2. Different transducers / exciters / shakers
3. Different soundcards
4. Different installation methods
5. Different seats
6. Different pedals
7. Different sims used and supported effects
8. Different user preferences
9. Different effect and profile settings


Even those people at Simhub Discord or GV Discord.
When they set out to make an effect, it is possible to have it operate with frequencies that are commonly supported within the frequency range many of the popular models use. Yet this does not eliminate all the factors listed above and that those different units will each have their own differences in how they actually perform with different frequencies.

Also, you could use the same amp/soundcard and settings in Simhub with two different makes/models of units.
Yet the felt sensation from each may not just be the same, or will they necessarily feel best with the same settings.

So for me personally, the concept that we can put different makes/models of units into (operating frequency ranges) as a way to group them. It may bring some success but is still flawed or limited in the approach of trying to have profiles and effects pre-made that will do the following.

A) work great for everyone
B) reduce the time and effort by a user to try to tune the effects to suit their 1-9 combinations
C) let the user experience the effects as they were meant to feel

My question is, even those out their making some of the best effects and also doing clever things with *custom coded effects.
The felt sensations that effect offers from its low-high operations based on the generated telemety. The person building that effect will have it, built to how it may feel good on the hardware and setup they own/use. Yet at the same time making it that the effect operates within the (frequency ranges) for the intended selection of hardware.

This offers some compatibility that at least the effect can operate. Yet my own approach is now focusing, on making effects suited to a unit (I believe based on tests is the optimal solution) one, that has much more potential in its generated felt sensations as it can simply work from a much wider operating window. This also means not only can effects be created beyond those limitations, so by design my own effects can be made to feel better/deeper to effects others might have made to date or I have made in the past.


They are seeking to make effects work on a range of potential options and all of those have similar restrictions in performance but also differences in the output characteristics and peak frequencies. Or the unit the effects creator actuall used is maybe not the best neither.

I am seeking to make effects that feel more immersive, on a solution with more potential in its abilities, but so that the user can experience fully as intended what, that effect was made to produce.


I dont know what effects you or other are using at this point.
How are the Good Vibrations effects working for you or others?

So my point here is, how does anyone know or can assure all the effort they put into how their effects may feel.
Can be certain, the community will experience that effect in the same way it was for them.

This does not mean, users cannot enjoy what is offered, even if how those effects feel on their setup is not quite the same as intended. They still, may be happy but then they also have no way of really knowing if what they do experience is close to what it should really be like.

Listen, I am sick to the teeth with how furstrating tactile is and espically for newcomers to it with so many different options and confusion. It is also quite annoying to put a lot of effort into making excellent effects, to then have people try them on hardware that is not capable of properly delivering them. Then for those people think they are not that good.

All I can tell you is, it is only when we seek to reduce the problems above, can we focus on improving tactile user friendlyness and deliver the benefits in performance the solution I am sharing/working towards offers. It is different in the approach, it is different in applying musical octaves with effects and it targets simplifing having the ability to be able to share user profiles with others.

I believe it is possible based on my testing/research so far and all this forms the basis of what I am doing with my own rig build.
No other appoach, I know of focuses on delivering as high a level of performance for so little money, yet at the same time offers people the ability to scale their configuration in steps over time and can have effects specifically adapted for either low budget (additional low bass extension) or high budget (additional low bass extension) models of hardware.

What people decide to do is their choice, I am only highlighting the issues and sharing my own knowledge/experiences with a potential solution. If someone is interested or has questions then fire away...

Okay.. let me sum it up how i understood it. Different Rigs/Hardware, different Settings are needed.

Makes Sense, i just dont know how you Need a 12 paper essay to make that clear 😂

 

[hawkeyez]

Okay.. let me sum it up how i understood it. Different Rigs/Hardware, different Settings are needed.

Makes Sense, i just dont know how you Need a 12 paper essay to make that clear 😂

it’s not only that but everyone is gonna feel it differently and have different tastes in effects. I know some don’t care for gear shift, I set mine up to not give me specific feedback but to feel more like I was sitting in a car.

Ideally if you set the effects up right, you shouldn’t feel much of anything if you’re driving well and not locking up your brakes or losing traction. You set it so you only feel it when you’re pushing the car too far. That didn’t appeal to me so I went the other way.

bought these shakers I’m gonna make sure I feel them while I drive. Haha. Gear shift, wheel lock, engine vibration, road bumps and speed with curve. That was one that I was happy I put in, when I take a hard right corner, the left side of my seat rumbles lightly. I will share my settings next time I’m racing but again I don’t think it’s going to be of much use to anyone.

 

[Mr Latte]

it’s not only that but everyone is gonna feel it differently and have different tastes in effects. I know some don’t care for gear shift, I set mine up to not give me specific feedback but to feel more like I was sitting in a car.

Ideally if you set the effects up right, you shouldn’t feel much of anything if you’re driving well and not locking up your brakes or losing traction. You set it so you only feel it when you’re pushing the car too far. That didn’t appeal to me so I went the other way.

bought these shakers I’m gonna make sure I feel them while I drive. Haha. Gear shift, wheel lock, engine vibration, road bumps and speed with curve. That was one that I was happy I put in, when I take a hard right corner, the left side of my seat rumbles lightly. I will share my settings next time I’m racing but thers use.

Differences in preferences but also the part I enjoy. What character do we determine to have applied for different effects.

Some of the wheelslip effects I have felt seem like you say overactive. Almost giving a response with every little wheel turn. I agree better to have an effect highlight a level of slip that isnt so sensitive. Matching the effects operation with cars that have dashboard lights can be a good start for tweaking.

Some I think try to use the slip effect to offer road feel. This can be better represented and differently with other effects

Personally I implemented low speed and high speed scenarios, to feel very different with new effects via textures and speed.

So low speed increases the surface or tyre detail sensation and high speed builds up to represent chassis/road noise.

This again using frequencies that cant be experienced properly with frequency restricted units, but its the only way to get certain felt sensations that better represent each scenario and bring a broader range of feel over low-high speed sections of track. This also alters based on each cars speeds achieved too.

As for gearshift, even G-Force can be applied to generate a felt sensation as the car dips forward/back when gearshift is activated.

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay.. let me sum it up how i understood it. Different Rigs/Hardware, different Settings are needed.

Makes Sense, i just dont know how you Need a 12 paper essay to make that clear 😂

I was going to do a 15 Page.....

The bottom line is, how do we improve on the 1-9 and deliver quality effects reaching an overall, more enjoyable user experience.

 

[hawkeyez]

Differences in preferences but also the part I enjoy. What character do we determine to have applied for different effects.

Some of the wheelslip effects I have felt seem like you say overactive. Almost giving a response with every little wheel turn. I agree better to have an effect highlight a level of slip that isnt so sensitive. Matching the effects operation with cars that have dashboard lights can be a good start for tweaking.

Some I think try to use the slip effect to offer road feel. This can be better represented and differently with other effects

Personally I implemented low speed and high speed scenarios, to feel very different with new effects via textures and speed.

So low speed increases the surface or tyre detail sensation and high speed builds up to represent chassis/road noise.

This again using frequencies that cant be experienced properly with frequency restricted units, but its the only way to get certain felt sensations that better represent each scenario and bring a broader range of feel over low-high speed sections of track. This also alters based on each cars speeds achieved too.

As for gearshift, even G-Force can be applied to generate a felt sensation as the car dips forward/back when gearshift is activated.

Wheel lock or whatever it is, I have set to like 97 so I only feel it when my brake is almost all the way down. I only use that to help me know how much pressure I’m applying to the brake.

 

[Revengel]

As I want to help those who are new, I wanted to post my setup and my experiences. I'll break this into sections and hide them behind spoilers in an attempt to make my post a bit easier to digest.

Spoiler: My Personal Setup

First: My Rig. Rigs matter.

I have a GT Racer cockpit from Next Level Racing. Important parts of this are:

• Steel tubular frame
• Reclining seat which is on sliders.
• Included Buttkicker Mount
• Included Shift Arm
• Solid (non-moving) pedal plate

What I put on my rig:

• Mounted my Logitech G923 wheel & pedals
• Mounted my Logitech Driving Force Shifter
• Buttkicker Gamer Plus

The rig rests on carpet over foam tile.

Spoiler: How I Mounted my Buttkicker Gamer Plus

Next: How I mounted the Buttkicker. Location - like real estate - is a huge factor.

I installed the BK mount on the rear portion of the seat frame. The square frame has holes for the BK mount to be attached either at the front or the back. Location is key and will be a personal preference. Additionally, I used M6 Air Conditioning Washers (cheap of Amazon) and placed them between the washers and the frame of the seat. This helps to isolate vibrations a bit. Currently, I have only one transducer mounted to the rig.

The bolt-washer pattern is as follows:

Bolt --> Washer --> Rubber Washer --> Chassis Frame --> Seat Frame --> Butterfly Nut.

This provides a small bit of isolation between where I want to feel the buzz (seat) and the rest of the rig. As mentioned earlier, I also have the whole thing on carpet with foam tiles beneath the carpet. The rig is in the basement on Linoleum tiles over concrete. Nobody has reported hearing the BK (I've asked the family) and there are no closed doors between where the rig is located and the stairs leading up to the living room.

Hope that helps.

Spoiler: What I Decided to Highlight in SimHub

SimHub: What I Chose to Highlight. After all, this is what we're here for.

I took the approach of classifying effects into two categories:

• Information (I). Effects that provide information and can be used for performance. Things like traction loss, G-forces, etc. can tell you quite a bit about how you're pushing the car.
• Feeling (F). Effects that add to the enjoyment and the feeling of being in a real car. Things like the "thud" of a gear shift fall directly here.

Some effects can and do count in both categories. Initially I was going to create separate profiles - one for Immersion/Fun and one for Performance/Information - but currently I love these settings for both reasons. I do label each Sim Hub effect based on my perception of Information vs. Feeling. Again, some effects count as both in my opinion.

Spoiler: Specific SimHub Settings

Here's what I did specifically in SimHub:

• Engine Effects: Gear Shift (F) 78% @ 25Hz, RPM (I/F) set very low (4%) and a medium Hz (38/50), Engine Vibration 6% (cannot tune Hz on this) and Missed Gear (F) 94% at 34/50Hz.
• Suspension Effects: Road Vibration (F/I) 13% @ 50Hz w/ White Noise (+/-10Hz), Road Impacts (I/F) 20% @25Hz w/ White Noise (+/-5Hz) and Road Texture (F) 4% @ 48 Hz w/ White Noise (+/- 10Hz)
• Wheel Effects: Wheels Lock (I) 81% @ 16HZ, Wheels Slip (I) 23% @ 30HZ w/ White Noise (+/- 10Hz) [SH says GT7 does not provide accurate Wheel Slip information], Traction Loss (I) 97% @ 18Hz and TC Active (I) 100% @44Hz.

[*]A short bit about White Noise: This setting provides a bit of variance in the vibration effects. Why would you want that? Rarely do we have road texture that is actually uniform. Most of the time we feel the texture as something with a bit of variation.

Spoiler: My Personal Results

With these settings I get the following:

• Engine Vibration and RPMs don't override important information. By having these set so low, I only notice them when I get closer to the redline of the engine. When I have it set higher, it becomes more of a continuous hum that can drown everything else.
• Road Vibration is tuned down for the same reason. The key is to have this as a gentle hum in the background, but still allow the redline, impacts and the like jump out during a session.
• I always know when the rear is going to step out. The consistent, deep vibrations of the rear wheel when I'm about to and have lost traction in the rear is both great to prevent actual slip of the rear during a race (last week's group C with the GR86) as well as pushing into that during drift missions (I've already upgraded from Silver to Gold in one mission and from Bronze to Silver in another) is a gigantic advantage for me. Your mileage may vary.
• These settings allow me to better control and have fun in any car I'm driving. "The Ex-Girlfriend" a.k.a. The Miura is well on the way to becoming the signature weapon it was in my hands during GT5 & GT6. My Engine Swapped Pantera and modified 512BB are great weapons below 600PP at Spa. The GR86 at Autopolis and (less so) 650 in Group 4 in Kyoto are examples of this.

In the end, I have even more fun in VR with these settings in Gran Turismo 7 - be that online races or single player sessions.

TL;DR version: On a Next Level Racing GT Racer rig, I was able to isolate my BK to gain more immersion and control on the track in any car I use. This led to more fun using my settings in SimHub and hopefully others can use my settings as a starting point for a single Buttkicker.

How much do I believe this? I've added both Buttkicker and SimHub decals to all liveries I use in Gran Turismo 7 for daily races and streams.

Hopefully this helps you, or someone else.

- Revengel

 

[ggmaestri]

Hey guys! I will share here the settings I use. I have two 50w BassShakers from China. One of them is installed behind the seat and the other under the pedals. I use an amplifier that I also acquired from China with two 100w outputs. It's a good profile in terms of immersion.

 

[ggmaestri]

Hey guys! I will share here the settings I use. I have two 50w BassShakers from China. One of them is installed behind the seat and the other under the pedals. I use an amplifier that I also acquired from China with two 100w outputs. It's a good profile in terms of immersion.

You can adjust the volume of each effect if you prefer

 

[Mr Latte]

Wheel lock or whatever it is, I have set to like 97 so I only feel it when my brake is almost all the way down. I only use that to help me know how much pressure I’m applying to the brake.

Are you meaning ABS by chance instead of wheelock?
Just a friendly reminder, we are still waiting on seeing the frequencies you use for effects you said you would share. It is only fair that if you debate things and highlight how much you enjoy the tactile you use or what it achieves. That we give viewers here more perspective to back up your own claims. This way it helps illustrate to followers here, to let them gain a better perecption in our differences regards approaches or what we both use or may experience.

You backed out last time, are you for side stepping this again?


Seems you are applying a quite simplistic, on/off solution and no doubt others apply this too.
I suppose, it works when you want it to work and can be used as a driving aid and for some this may be enough.

Slip & Lock
Traction Loss
Wheels Slip
Wheels Lock
Wheels Spin & Lock
TC Active
ABS Active


Which Is It?
Although "wheelslip" and "wheellock" can be used independently and also separate from ABS to present very different felt characteristics to then represent each scenario better. Additionally an effect like G-Force is also very good to accompany wheelslip in some scenarios but it takes quite a bit of effort with effects creation to get all those to feel nice, to then work well together and for each to have felt sensations generated that are not too similar in feel.

Based on my own experiences with tactile I would say all this is not possible on (frequency restricted transducers/exciters) it is just the reality of the limitations a lot of the budget tactile hardware people own has. So that defines how good or even what (in frequencies) feels good enough to use on such hardware.

This point would be proved if several of you post the frequencies you use in effects. This could show how restricted perhaps what some of you may feel, in how it varies in the felt sensations the effects are producing and how well the units you have actually produce those frequencies used.


Possibilities / Different Approach Example:
Those making more advanced effects in this area (not just me) are seeking to bring more responsive and detailed sensations.
Here, though is my own take on this....

To have "small slip" represented with "light" feeling sensation and then as the slip amount increases during oversteer/understeer scenarios have this move towards "deeper" feeling sensation. In a "high" slip scenario, the whole chassis of the car can be moving more, not just wheels/tyres spinning. Should well thought out and crafted effects not highlight this, one example being the car spinning out of control. In this scenario I then question, well why are we also not representing g-forces, speed and other effects that also too are active in "that scenario". How, can we create for them their own sensations and deploy these most effectively into the body?

Now you have a varying range of felt sensation that is more natural and increases/decreases in not just volume/strength of a static frequency, but also shifting in frequency based on applied settings.

"Front" and "Rear" slip can also be given their own representation (not just using wheelslip as an ABS type indicator) and some scenarios their may be more slip to the "Front" or more to the "Rear" so producing different sensations to the pedals/seat. This also depends on how it is configured, as some may want to apply left/right or front/rear or corner based operation regards how the slip is output to different units installed.


THE NEW "MUST HAVE" IN SIM HARDWARE = ABS
Here is a very interesting video and comparison as this guy does something many of the hardware reviewers failed to do.
I applaud his honesty and in-depth explanation.

He compares the most expensive Simucube pedals with their own haptics to the Simagic HPR. In this video, he mentions for him how @5Hz-10Hz feels more accurate as a sensation and not like a machine gun style or repeated lumpy/thump we feel with higher frequencies being applied...



Question:
What are you guys using in Hz for ABS?
Please state the model of unit and frequency you use?


What I can tell you folks here,(once again) that the BDS exciter with well crafted effects is on another level in what it can deliver in felt sensations as well as its application of different effects, and not just useful for ABS.

Note, that every owner of the HPR, I have privately helped with this approach has instantly felt benefits and improvements. Yet as I have mentioned, just look around at the "OMG" reactions the HPR has got from the online community. So it must be the best right?
Also based on that products huge success in sales, we now see other companies bringing their own solutions.

This is why I recently approached a "youtube hardware reviewer", to say lets get you to better understand tactile, then lets get you to experience many of the popular models, and lets compare those to what I have been doing. At the same time this person is free to say what they like, based on their own findings and preferences. To date this is a video that I believe is missing from any of the popular hardware reviewers. I also do not think Simucube want a reviewer to say btw you can get "better tactiles" with a $35 exciter than on these $2000 pedals. Their product is not just about haptics as it brings many other advantages to standard pedals but how useful those are may vary based on users. Exactly as the owner in the above video highlighted.

Lets just keep focus on the haptics, you can see where I am coming from but we seriously need to consider giving the community a clear direction in what they should now consider in 2024. A solution that delivers high performance at low price entry and is expandable, rather than just doing what people have been doing and using in hardware for the last 10+ years. Things have moved on, what we can do has improved and some people in the community can create rather impressive and excellent effects (even with different approaches). Things are such a mess with so many opinions/methods and options regards tactile. I just believe and want, to bring the community much better tactile sensations with a tried/tested and high performance solution than what most of you may already be experiencing.


ABS Effect
Getting back to ABS, this particular effect is of interest to many and Simhub is rather limited in controls or options with it. My own approach to this, I found it is possible to combine two (octave related frequency layers) with their own settings, to generate a felt sensation a user may prefer to that of a single frequency being used. Yet what I noticed several owners/people also discovered is how the HPR deploys the frequency (piston based unit) is more thud like and less detailed too. Some are so shocked at how good they thought the HPR was to effects I then let them experience with the BDS so I know already based on feedback I am not just dellusional guys. It is advice, to be considered or ignored.


This is not to come off as smug, yet some of you also need to be realistic in what you use, how it is installed and the effects you use with that. As to where you really are with things to what the potential is with tactile. Some may be keen to learn or ensure they make good choices, others tend to do what they want anyways and make do with what they have.

Brutal Truth?
Is it also fair to say that youtube is full of people telling you what is cool with tactile yet they themselves (not in all cases) but often have very little experiences with it or in different models of units? Or how to go about making good effects in Simhub?

It amuses me, still in 2024 not one of the leading hardware based channels for sim racing has properly tackled this in comparing different hardware options, installations or ways effects are created and applied. It's so deep of a topic that even they have stayed clear of it. Some will still even promote corners installation as being the best approach when time and time it has been proven (by those that compared) that is not the best way to achieve multi-dimensional tactile or to try and maintain stereo operation and seperation with supported effects.


*Currently I have an ongoing profile with several effects including ABS in private tests specifically for the BDS exciter which operates with single frequencies of 5Hz up with a few experimental options applying octaves. It is unlikely these will operate well on popular units like BST1 or TT25 pucks based on such low frequencies. I am told even units like the BST 300EX struggle with representing well frequencies below @15Hz?

*You have all been given a product to consider buying and testing for yourselves that can greatly advance how good effects can feel.
I have offered to do group chat based on this model being used with specific hardware, to achieve a fixed hardware solution. Owners would then be able to test and experiment with effects I can provide with a focus on GT7 or other supported titles.

With this, effects I have worked on specifically for this approach I have, can then be enjoyed and experienced as intended for units in the pedals only, or pedals and suitable seats to install the units onto. Some user d.i.y may be needed but that thread or help will not come, unless people are willing to follow those requirements in this approach I can offer. Therefore it is upto people here if they wish to commit to buying into that as a solution and even want such a thread to be made, but either way it is upto those here to decide.

 

[hawkeyez]

Are you meaning ABS by chance instead of wheelock?
Just a friendly reminder, we are still waiting on seeing the frequencies you use for effects you said you would share. It is only fair that if you debate things and highlight how much you enjoy the tactile you use or what it achieves. That we give viewers here more perspective to back up your own claims. This way it helps illustrate to followers here, to let them gain a better perecption in our differences regards approaches or what we both use or may experience.

You backed out last time, are you for side stepping this again?


Seems you are applying a quite simplistic, on/off solution and no doubt others apply this too.
I suppose, it works when you want it to work and can be used as a driving aid and for some this may be enough.

Slip & Lock
Traction Loss
Wheels Slip
Wheels Lock
Wheels Spin & Lock
TC Active
ABS Active


Which Is It?
Although "wheelslip" and "wheellock" can be used independently and also separate from ABS to present very different felt characteristics to then represent each scenario better. Additionally an effect like G-Force is also very good to accompany wheelslip in some scenarios but it takes quite a bit of effort with effects creation to get all those to feel nice, to then work well together and for each to have felt sensations generated that are not too similar in feel.

Based on my own experiences with tactile I would say all this is not possible on (frequency restricted transducers/exciters) it is just the reality of the limitations a lot of the budget tactile hardware people own has. So that defines how good or even what (in frequencies) feels good enough to use on such hardware.

This point would be proved if several of you post the frequencies you use in effects. This could show how restricted perhaps what some of you may feel, in how it varies in the felt sensations the effects are producing and how well the units you have actually produce those frequencies used.


Possibilities / Different Approach Example:
Those making more advanced effects in this area (not just me) are seeking to bring more responsive and detailed sensations.
Here, though is my own take on this....

To have "small slip" represented with "light" feeling sensation and then as the slip amount increases during oversteer/understeer scenarios have this move towards "deeper" feeling sensation. In a "high" slip scenario, the whole chassis of the car can be moving more, not just wheels/tyres spinning. Should well thought out and crafted effects not highlight this, one example being the car spinning out of control. In this scenario I then question, well why are we also not representing g-forces, speed and other effects that also too are active in "that scenario". How, can we create for them their own sensations and deploy these most effectively into the body?

Now you have a varying range of felt sensation that is more natural and increases/decreases in not just volume/strength of a static frequency, but also shifting in frequency based on applied settings.

"Front" and "Rear" slip can also be given their own representation (not just using wheelslip as an ABS type indicator) and some scenarios their may be more slip to the "Front" or more to the "Rear" so producing different sensations to the pedals/seat. This also depends on how it is configured, as some may want to apply left/right or front/rear or corner based operation regards how the slip is output to different units installed.


THE NEW "MUST HAVE" IN SIM HARDWARE = ABS
Here is a very interesting video and comparison as this guy does something many of the hardware reviewers failed to do.
I applaud his honesty and in-depth explanation.

He compares the most expensive Simucube pedals with their own haptics to the Simagic HPR. In this video, he mentions for him how @5Hz-10Hz feels more accurate as a sensation and not like a machine gun style or repeated lumpy/thump we feel with higher frequencies being applied...



Question:
What are you guys using in Hz for ABS?
Please state the model of unit and frequency you use?


What I can tell you folks here,(once again) that the BDS exciter with well crafted effects is on another level in what it can deliver in felt sensations as well as its application of different effects, and not just useful for ABS.

Note, that every owner of the HPR, I have privately helped with this approach has instantly felt benefits and improvements. Yet as I have mentioned, just look around at the "OMG" reactions the HPR has got from the online community. So it must be the best right?
Also based on that products huge success in sales, we now see other companies bringing their own solutions.

This is why I recently approached a "youtube hardware reviewer", to say lets get you to better understand tactile, then lets get you to experience many of the popular models, and lets compare those to what I have been doing. At the same time this person is free to say what they like, based on their own findings and preferences. To date this is a video that I believe is missing from any of the popular hardware reviewers. I also do not think Simucube want a reviewer to say btw you can get "better tactiles" with a $35 exciter than on these $2000 pedals. Their product is not just about haptics as it brings many other advantages to standard pedals but how useful those are may vary based on users. Exactly as the owner in the above video highlighted.

Lets just keep focus on the haptics, you can see where I am coming from but we seriously need to consider giving the community a clear direction in what they should now consider in 2024. A solution that delivers high performance at low price entry and is expandable, rather than just doing what people have been doing and using in hardware for the last 10+ years. Things have moved on, what we can do has improved and some people in the community can create rather impressive and excellent effects (even with different approaches). Things are such a mess with so many opinions/methods and options regards tactile. I just believe and want, to bring the community much better tactile sensations with a tried/tested and high performance solution than what most of you may already be experiencing.


ABS Effect
Getting back to ABS, this particular effect is of interest to many and Simhub is rather limited in controls or options with it. My own approach to this, I found it is possible to combine two (octave related frequency layers) with their own settings, to generate a felt sensation a user may prefer to that of a single frequency being used. Yet what I noticed several owners/people also discovered is how the HPR deploys the frequency (piston based unit) is more thud like and less detailed too. Some are so shocked at how good they thought the HPR was to effects I then let them experience with the BDS so I know already based on feedback I am not just dellusional guys. It is advice, to be considered or ignored.


This is not to come off as smug, yet some of you also need to be realistic in what you use, how it is installed and the effects you use with that. As to where you really are with things to what the potential is with tactile. Some may be keen to learn or ensure they make good choices, others tend to do what they want anyways and make do with what they have.

Brutal Truth?
Is it also fair to say that youtube is full of people telling you what is cool with tactile yet they themselves (not in all cases) but often have very little experiences with it or in different models of units? Or how to go about making good effects in Simhub?

It amuses me, still in 2024 not one of the leading hardware based channels for sim racing has properly tackled this in comparing different hardware options, installations or ways effects are created and applied. It's so deep of a topic that even they have stayed clear of it. Some will still even promote corners installation as being the best approach when time and time it has been proven (by those that compared) that is not the best way to achieve multi-dimensional tactile or to try and maintain stereo operation and seperation with supported effects.


*Currently I have an ongoing profile with several effects including ABS in private tests specifically for the BDS exciter which operates with single frequencies of 5Hz up with a few experimental options applying octaves. It is unlikely these will operate well on popular units like BST1 or TT25 pucks based on such low frequencies. I am told even units like the BST 300EX struggle with representing well frequencies below @15Hz?

*You have all been given a product to consider buying and testing for yourselves that can greatly advance how good effects can feel.
I have offered to do group chat based on this model being used with specific hardware, to achieve a fixed hardware solution. Owners would then be able to test and experiment with effects I can provide with a focus on GT7 or other supported titles.

With this, effects I have worked on specifically for this approach I have, can then be enjoyed and experienced as intended for units in the pedals only, or pedals and suitable seats to install the units onto. Some user d.i.y may be needed but that thread or help will not come, unless people are willing to follow those requirements in this approach I can offer. Therefore it is upto people here if they wish to commit to buying into that as a solution and even want such a thread to be made, but either way it is upto those here to decide.

Sorry man I really don’t have time to read all of this. I’ll get you your screenshots, I just keep forgetting to take them. Lately I’ve only had time to race for a couple hours on Sunday and only remember after I’ve shut everything down.

 

[hawkeyez]

Here’s my settings, I took screenshots then realized I don’t have a way to get them off my laptop so I took pictures.

Not taking all the shots of shaker volumes as I think that wouldn’t be relevant anyway unless somebody runs exactly the same setup.

It’s not ABS, it’s wheel lock, as I said I found that to work as a gauge for my braking, when the brake pedal is about 3/4 down I get rumbling, sometimes I find I lift jut a bit and brake better but other cars I have to go further. All it’s there for is to let me know how far I’m pushing the pedal down. If I didn’t have it set to 97 and left it stock it jut went nuts. I faintly remember trying ABS and it was doing the same thing. Like as soon as you touch the brake it’s rumbling. So I just picked one.

 

[Mr Latte]

Here’s my settings, I took screenshots then realized I don’t have a way to get them off my laptop so I took pictures.

Not taking all the shots of shaker volumes as I think that wouldn’t be relevant anyway unless somebody runs exactly the same setup.

It’s not ABS, it’s wheel lock, as I said I found that to work as a gauge for my braking, when the brake pedal is about 3/4 down I get rumbling, sometimes I find I lift jut a bit and brake better but other cars I have to go further. All it’s there for is to let me know how far I’m pushing the pedal down. If I didn’t have it set to 97 and left it stock it jut went nuts. I faintly remember trying ABS and it was doing the same thing. Like as soon as you touch the brake it’s rumbling. So I just picked one.

Thanks for posting and sharing...
Now this highlights exactly the points I have made with regards usage of limited frequencies and application of those with basic effects and the hardware that you use. Aside from "Parametric Engine" you are only using 17Hz of range in frequencies to determine the felt character of 6x effects (40Hz-57Hz). No surprise also that many of your effects are within that 40Hz range.

I understand how you are using the Wheelock and as I said, its a simple implementation that others may use too, so it basically is an on/off indicator for you. Wheelslip can be set to be utilised differently, not just in braking, as it can offer a progressive feel regards the amount of slip (front/rear) to also help aid driving in understeer/oversteer scenarios as well as throttle control. ABS may use the same telemetry data to wheel/lock and as you know its not fully supported in all sims anyway.

Not so sure why you have several effects set to "high priority" but maybe you can explain as we do not see how you are mapping the effects to the different channels. Though you are using RV in mono for some reason instead of stereo? Makes more sense to have it go out of only 1 pair or several pairs of units as stereo?. Although you may also be mixing mono effects with stereo effects on certain channels,mmmm?

You have repeatedly told us how happy you are with your tactile and as I have said to you directly in the past, being satisfied is one thing. However in a general perspective, if I was to rate what you are using/experiencing from 1-10 to what the potential is for a seat with what I am proposing. Then it would likely be within a 2-3.

This is not a personal attack towards you at all btw and I know you get defensive, it is just based on what you are using in limited hardware, with the effects and frequencies those effects are then applying.

I am hoping to contribute towards, some future videos, to help compare and highlight how/what/where all the most popular budget models compare to one another in performance and operating character. One the comparisons will be to compare how well the TT25 Puck via 3D print adapter to / Simagic HPR / BST1 units compare with the BDS exciters in pedals.

 

[hawkeyez]

Thanks for posting and sharing...
Now this highlights exactly the points I have made with regards usage of limited frequencies and application of those with basic effects and the hardware that you use. Aside from "Parametric Engine" you are only using 17Hz of range in frequencies to determine the felt character of 6x effects (40Hz-57Hz). No surprise also that many of your effects are within that 40Hz range.

I understand how you are using the Wheelock and as I said, its a simple implementation that others may use too, so it basically is an on/off indicator for you. Wheelslip can be set to be utilised differently, not just in braking, as it can offer a progressive feel regards the amount of slip (front/rear) to also help aid driving in understeer/oversteer scenarios as well as throttle control. ABS may use the same telemetry data to wheel/lock and as you know its not fully supported in all sims anyway.

Not so sure why you have several effects set to "high priority" but maybe you can explain as we do not see how you are mapping the effects to the different channels. Though you are using RV in mono for some reason instead of stereo? Makes more sense to have it go out of only 1 pair or several pairs of units left/right. Although you may also be mixing mono effects with stereo effects on certain channels.

You keep telling us how happy you are with your tactile and as I have said to you directly in the past, being satisfied is one thing but if I was to rate what you are using/experiencing from 1-10 to what the potential is for a seat with what I am proposing. Then it would likely be within a 2-3.

I rate your attitude and tact at about a negative 3

I’m glad I could serve as an example to everyone in here of what not to do in the words and recommendations of the almighty Mr. Latte

I’ll reiterate that all of this started between us when I simply asked if anybody had some recommendations on how to mount the TT25’s as I wasn’t sure if I sure be fastening to the rig or trying to get them into the seat somehow. Nobody replied but you, telling me to not bother, sell it all and get something worth using. So I just decided to embed them into the seat and was happy with that.

But it didn’t stop there, constant digs “van seat” or “inferior hardware like the TT25’s like some people have chose to use”

You know what, I’ll take you up on your offer to buy me one of those new shakers you mentioned. Except send cash instead and triple it. Feel free to include an apology note as well so I can frame it and hang it by my front door as a daily reminder to never act like Mr. Latte towards anybody asking for help or guidance.

** I called it, your reply was exactly what I was expected, one big PFFFT yeah this is not good or right in any way

 

[Mr Latte]

I rate your attitude and tact at about a negative 3

I’m glad I could serve as an example to everyone in here of what not to do in the words and recommendations of the almighty Mr. Latte

I’ll reiterate that all of this started between us when I simply asked if anybody had some recommendations on how to mount the TT25’s as I wasn’t sure if I sure be fastening to the rig or trying to get them into the seat somehow. Nobody replied but you, telling me to not bother, sell it all and get something worth using. So I just decided to embed them into the seat and was happy with that.

But it didn’t stop there, constant digs “van seat” or “inferior hardware like the TT25’s like some people have chose to use”

You know what, I’ll take you up on your offer to buy me one of those new shakers you mentioned. Except send cash instead and triple it. Feel free to include an apology note as well so I can frame it and hang it by my front door as a daily reminder to never act like Mr. Latte towards anybody asking for help or guidance.

** I called it, your reply was exactly what I was expected, one big PFFFT yeah this is not good or right in any way

Still bitter I see and are you one of those super sensitive types?

You still cant get over the facts man, you may be happy with what you have and we are all delighted for you.

However, if you do not want to accept much better is possible or can come to terms with what you are experiencing is quite far off what the potential is. It's not aimed at you only, as their are a lot of people using the TT25 units, on seats or pedals. I do not need your personal directed insults.


This Is Not just About You
Others with similar hardware, may be using a bit more than 17Hz of range in effects but they will be suffering a similar aspect in that many of the effects they apply will be within 40-60Hz. I put it to people here, do you think that is enough for experiencing good tactile? Many of you, also have no idea of how we can apply frequencies below 20Hz or the importance of them as being key for certain effects scenarios.

Anyways, this is to help others see by your own example what you use in effects with the hardware you opted for with the seat you choose to use. You have side stepped showing what you used because you know fine well, your experience with all this is limited but you dont like being told what to do and very easily get annoyed.

 

[hawkeyez]

Still bitter I see and are you one of those super sensitive types?

You still cant get over the facts man, you may be happy with what you have and we are all delighted for you.

However, if you do not want to accept much better is possible or can come to terms with what you are experiencing is quite far off what the potential is. It's not aimed at you only, as their are a lot of people using the TT25 units, on seats or pedals. I do not need your personal directed insults.


This Is Not just About You
Others with similar hardware, may be using a bit more than 17Hz of range in effects but they will be suffering a similar aspect in that many of the effects they apply will be within 40-60Hz. I put it to people here, do you think that is enough for experiencing good tactile? Many of you, also have no idea of how we can apply frequencies below 20Hz or the importance of them as being key for certain effects scenarios.

Anyways, this is to help others see by your own example what you use in effects with the hardware you opted for with the seat you choose to use. You have side stepped showing what you used because you know fine well, your experience with all this is limited but you dont like being told what to do and very easily get annoyed..

you just don’t get it… lol, that’s fine

I have multiple tt25’s. Why do I need to spread out the frequencies a lot if that one or two pucks is only responsible for a specific effect at short durations? Not much overlap there between effects really. I have mono for rpm because I only have two pucks doing rpm, one at my feet and one in my seat. A lot of the road impacts and speed curving is in stereo, left and right and they don’t really overlap each other much in game. It’s almost each puck has its own thing not one trying to do many.

Some might be on high priority because SimHub likes to periodically crash and I have to reload settings, so I may have uploaded an old one and didn’t notice.

You’ve dropped over $10,000 or more on this stuff over years and still can’t provide a reasonably priced setup without continually changing it over. I’m sure some people are upset that you’ve packed in and moved on from your initial recommendations. Get your rig sorted out, make a price list, send SimHub settings files and be done with it. Always hiding behind something. Continuing to tweak, you’ve been tweaking one year too long for most. It’s not that complicated.

You clearly have a superiority complex.

 

[Mr Latte]

you just don’t get it… lol, that’s fine

I have multiple tt25’s. Why do I need to spread out the frequencies a lot if that one or two pucks is only responsible for a specific effect at short durations? Not much overlap there between effects really. I have mono for rpm because I only have two pucks doing rpm, one at my feet and one in my seat. A lot of the road impacts and speed curving is in stereo, left and right and they don’t really overlap each other much in game. It’s almost each puck has its own thing not one trying to do many.

Some might be on high priority because SimHub likes to periodically crash and I have to reload settings, so I may have uploaded an old one and didn’t notice.

You’ve dropped over $10,000 or more on this stuff over years and still can’t provide a reasonably priced setup without continually changing it over. I’m sure some people are upset that you’ve packed in and moved on from your initial recommendations. Get your rig sorted out, make a price list, send SimHub settings files and be done with it. Always hiding behind something. Continuing to tweak, you’ve been tweaking one year too long for most. It’s not that complicated.

You clearly have a superiority complex.

You are entitled to your opinions and how you present them but are you also not meant to respect others too?
Do you want me to report the several intended personal insults?

Thank you for your input in clarifying what you understand regards tactile and have experienced from it.

Wow and so nice of you to give me advice...
My progress with my own build is just fine. I just recieved the TR160S with Simlab Inverted kit but will be modifying this a lot.

The current priority is continuing the work started at the beginning of this year.
Determining what brings the best performance and immersion for a budget tactile solution.

This takes a lot of time, working on this concept based on evaulating a lot of different options.
Learning what the limitations of those are and applying the benefits my own solution offers.

"its not that complicated"

Actually tactile is one of the most confusing, complicated and disputed topics regards any form of hardware for sim racing.

2024?
Newly released hardware brings new possibilities, did you invest in new amps, new exciters, and units like the HPR to test?
Are you working with others to bring comparisons of these to help better inform the community/public?

Continued research/understanding with creating effects brings improved sensations.
This takes hundreds of hours towards effects experimentation and tuning those effects to work beautifully to the performance and characteristics for specific units.

I have several people already helping with this concept and every week more show an interest.
What matters to me more is a recent response from a tester...

"When I was testing only your effects on track, the other day, I was doing laps of Mount Panarama in ACC and as I said, was impressed with how it all felt working together. Last night I was doing laps of MP with only the effects that I was using before and wow, now those simple effects that I had working on the BK & HPR's, now feel lifeless! Now I can't wait to get the new units for the pedal toes and and button up the rest of the installation and get everything working together...looking forward to new felt sensations. Thanks!"

 

[hawkeyez]

You are entitled to your opinions and how you present them but are you also not meant to respect others too?
Do you want me to report the several intended personal insults?

Thank you for your input in clarifying what you understand regards tactile and have experienced from it.

Wow and so nice of you to give me advice...
My progress with my own build is just fine. I just recieved the TR160S with Simlab Inverted kit but will be modifying this a lot.

The current priority is continuing the work started at the beginning of this year.
Determining what brings the best performance and immersion for a budget tactile solution.

This takes a lot of time, working on this concept based on evaulating a lot of different options.
Learning what the limitations of those are and applying the benefits my own solution offers.

"its not that complicated"

Actually tactile is one of the most confusing, complicated and disputed topics regards any form of hardware for sim racing.

2024?
Newly released hardware brings new possibilities, did you invest in new amps, new exciters, and units like the HPR to test?
Are you working with others to bring comparisons of these to help better inform the community/public?

Continued research/understanding with creating effects brings improved sensations.
This takes hundreds of hours towards effects experimentation and tuning those effects to work beautifully to the performance and characteristics for specific units.

I have several people already helping with this concept and every week more show an interest.
What matters to me more is a recent response from a tester...

"When I was testing only your effects on track, the other day, I was doing laps of Mount Panarama in ACC and as I said, was impressed with how it all felt working together. Last night I was doing laps of MP with only the effects that I was using before and wow, now those simple effects that I had working on the BK & HPR's, now feel lifeless! Now I can't wait to get the new units for the pedal toes and and button up the rest of the installation and get everything working together...looking forward to new felt sensations. Thanks!"

Go for it, you know how you’ve acted as well. I could care less at this point. I wouldn’t say you’ve exactly shown respect. You’ve walked a fine line. Have a good one!

 

[Mr Latte]

Go for it, you know how you’ve acted as well. I could care less at this point. I wouldn’t say you’ve exactly shown respect. You’ve walked a fine line. Have a good one!

Such drama but I was not surprised....

The discussion has useful purpose because it highlights a common issue.

Several of your effects are not much different to default, but the impression I get, is that you are not really here seeking help, you prefer to turn help away, or ignore advice and do what you want to do anyways.

It was said, that what you could achieve in tactile would be limited.
This was also confirmed with the settings you shared and with the effects you use.

Something I did, was to take everyone of your settings to create a profile, then I also monitored Simhub via spectrum analysis to determine what your settings and effects were actually generating.

I also just connected one of my TT25 to set it on my lap as a reference to determine its output and operation.


Observation:
The "Speed Curving" feels not too bad but so many of the effects you have, use such similar frequencies. Any that are linked to the same channels are likely getting saturated and what happens is the amplitude for those repeating/overlapping frequencies just increases.

You do not really have unique felt characteristics for different effects, or scenarios within effects, just feels a bit dull and static.
This is one of the limitations with standard effects but made worse as so many of yours are condensed into similar frequencies. So even if you may not have effects that are operational mostly in similar instances, its the same Hz going into your body, just from a different unit, probably only a few inches apart.

It's like listening to music on headphones that only produce 10% of the frequency range. That is one of the common issues with alot of other peoples setups as well, and quite typical with frequency restricted hardware. You are not alone in this regard or being indvidually targetted. Why it is being highlighted is because so much better is possible with the affordable option I have shared. Clearly you will not buy it, and turned a free one down, but some are already beginning to give it a try.

I don't get the impression you have a full grasp yet on some of the Simhub settings, but then you probably will not even admit to that neither? Nor would you actually instead, ask how you could improve things but rather continue to have tit for tat exchanges.

Regardless, I thought I would share more....

One of the benefits in using the spectrum analysis as a learning tool, is the possibility to apply the same or different effects to specific channels and then compare with the visual representations what each is doing based on the settings applied in Simhub and during the effects operation.

An example of this would be to apply "Parametric Engine" comparing what happens when we alter the "Pitch/Load/Cutoff" settings and so that we get it operating within the window more suited to the hardware being used. I also see how/why you applied an RPM layer but think we can do something with this as well.

I will add later, some images to help improve your profiles performance for these two effects.

 

[hawkeyez]

Such drama but I was not surprised....

The discussion has useful purpose because it highlights a common issue.

Several of your effects are not much different to default, but the impression I get, is that you are not really here seeking help, you prefer to turn help away, or ignore advice and do what you want to do anyways.

It was said, that what you could achieve in tactile would be limited.
This was also confirmed with the settings you shared and with the effects you use.

Something I did, was to take everyone of your settings to create a profile, then I also monitored Simhub via spectrum analysis to determine what your settings and effects were actually generating.

I also just connected one of my TT25 to set it on my lap as a reference to determine its output and operation.


Observation:
The "Speed Curving" feels not too bad but so many of the effects you have, use such similar frequencies. Any that are linked to the same channels are likely getting saturated and what happens is the amplitude for those repeating/overlapping frequencies just increases.

You do not really have unique felt characteristics for different effects, or scenarios within effects, just a feels bit dull and static....
This is one of the limitations with standard effects but made worse as so many of yours are condensed into similar frequencies.

It's like listening to music on headphones that only produce 10% of the frequency range. That is one of the common issues with alot of other peoples setups as well, and quite typical with frequency restricted hardware. You are not alone in this regard or being indvidually targetted.

I don't get the impression you have a full grasp yet on some of the Simhub settings, but then you probably will not even admit to that neither? Nor would you actually instead, ask how you could improve things but rather continue to have tit for tat exchanges.

Regardless, I thought I would share more....

One of the benefits in using the spectrum analysis as a learning tool, is the possibility to apply the same or different effects to specific channels and then compare with the visual representations what each is doing based on the settings applied in Simhub and during the effects operation.

An example of this would be to apply "Parametric Engine" comparing what happens when we alter the "Pitch/Load/Cutoff" settings and so that we get it operating within the window more suited to the hardware being used. I also see how/why you applied an RPM layer but think we can do something with this as well.

I will add later, some images to help improve your profiles performance for some of the effects.

Don’t bother. I just joined the thread to get some ideas on how or where to mount the TT25’s. Nobody offered up any ideas. Which is fine and somewhat expected.

As for the drama, my fault for not ignoring your constant digs. You this, you that, you, you, you, but you are not being individually targeted. It’s been nothing but backhanded insults left right and center. Very gently sprinkled with some advice on how to improve my inferior rig and SimHub settings.

Maybe you don’t see that, I do. You can make all the SimHub files you want for me, I will not test them out. I’m happy with my settings enough that I haven’t changed them for what must be a year now. It hasn’t even crossed my mind to see if I could somehow improve them.

Checklist:
Curb left or right? Yep in the seat of my pants and at my feet.
Gear shift? Yep center back and a bit in lower back and feet.
Cornering left or right? Yep hard right I feel down my left side and vice versa.
Engine vibrations/rpm? Yep engine at my feet on idle, rpm feet to back center.
Road vibration? Yep, a single puck attached to seat mount.
Wheel lock? Not how I’d like because it’s just constant feedback in GT7 and it’s incorrect as well as ABS so I have it set to only be active during hard braking, pedal down about 3/4.

There’s not a lot of masking going on anywhere. I’m usually not shifting or hard braking while cornering or running over curbs. Engine vibration and rpm are mostly on their own pucks as well as road vibration. During hard braking and downshifting, there is no overlap or masking. Wheel lock is at feet, gear shift, most of it is on a single puck at the center of my back. I actually just installed a foam neck support and it’s funny how that accentuates the gear shift in my head so much so that I may have to turn that down some.

Honestly the only two that would have overlap is Speed curving and Curbs. Curbs always seem to overpower speed cornering as it’s set strong. So if I’m cornering hard right I feel it on my left, if I run off track and hit a curb the curb takes over and is much stronger. I set speed curving to give an illusion that the car has some weight to it and was the last effect I added. I had good feedback sensations all around (whether you agree with this or not) but during corners, unless I was running over curbs the entire rig wasn’t all that active. Speed cornering filled in that gap. I have it fairly subtle but it’s enough to give the feeling of “come on hang onto it!” thru corners.

Long story short, I really don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything. I feel like if I turned anything up stronger I’d start drowning out or masking my wheel feedback. It’s blending nice with my wheel. So much so sometimes it’s difficult to tell if it came from my wheel or the pucks. The Logitech Pro does have some power to it and can send a rumble thru the entire rig at times.

I know a lot of people set it up to have concentrated effects during specific times to help with lap times. I get that if you want to race competitively. Ideally you want your rig totally inactive until you’re pushing something too far. Then you use that feedback as an indication to correct something.

I went the other direction, I paid for this stuff, I wanna make use of it. So when I hop in a car and start driving, it’s giving me the illusion of being in a car. Yes there are times when it’s pretty minimal like down a long straight at LeMans but most other tracks I’m getting constant feedback whether it’s at my feet or in the seat of my pants or lower back or wheel.

Don’t forget you can layer with volume too, just like when mixing music. Yes all my effects would mask each other if I had them all at 100%. But they’re not. Some are blended in at 11% or 17%. Each puck kind of has its own job and then some of the effects are blended into the other pucks at a lower % to fill it out.


Thanks for checking out my settings with your single TT25 sitting on top of your lap. Really curious what you can dial in for me that way. 🙄

 

[Mr Latte]

For those being amused by all this....

Its been known, that I do tend to do a bit of sarcasam, maybe its an irish thing but its not spiteful folks....
Maybe we can add something useful from all this.

I still actually wonder why he even asked for help because he already had in his mind what he was going to do. Yet each time when questioned or challenged, he presents a similar manner/attitude and continually shows unwillingness to other options or approaches even now with effects it seems too.

I’m happy with my settings enough that I haven’t changed them for what must be a year now. It hasn’t even crossed my mind to see if I could somehow improve them.

Have you all read again, how wonderful his tactile is working, so good in fact he has not even considered changing/altering his settings and effects in over a year. Yet in his latest attempt to huff, now states, he will refuse to try any altered effects for his setup I offer, oh my....

That kinda sums things up for me though.
I already have these done today anyways, so they will be added later regardless of what he says.

I went the other direction, I paid for this stuff, I wanna make use of it. So when I hop in a car and start driving, it’s giving me the illusion of being in a car. Yes there are times when it’s pretty minimal like down a long straight at LeMans but most other tracks I’m getting constant feedback whether it’s at my feet or in the seat of my pants or lower back or wheel.

Yep you are getting feedback but the question is, what and how good is that feedback? What do you use to reference it with in comparison as you have not once given examples. This coming from a guy that appears to have only experienced one product solution.

Long story short, I really don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything. I feel like if I turned anything up stronger I’d start drowning out or masking my wheel feedback. It’s blending nice with my wheel. So much so sometimes it’s difficult to tell if it came from my wheel or the pucks. The Logitech Pro does have some power to it and can send a rumble thru the entire rig at times.

I have come across this many times, yet to be fair others were open to try different things and use other hardware. They were soon quite surprised with how basic what they had actually was. Lets keep focus as you are basically using close to "standard effects" and with that record breaking 17Hz range of frequencies used over 6 effects you have control of.

Even your RPM is totally static, a single layer you apply for idle and peak RPM which illustrates to me how little you actually have experimented. You also don't seem to realise that your RPM is killing the "Parametric Engine", why is that do you think?

Thanks for checking out my settings with your single TT25 sitting on top of your lap. Really curious what you can dial in for me that way. 🙄

This might really blow yah mind, dude, I even put it behind my back and under my leg. Yes I wanted to get as close to what you feel with the exact same model of unit you have and placing similar effects to that channel. However I did also try your effects on other units too but clearly yah mastered these with you mixing skills over a year ago specifically for the TT25 (this is humour btw).


Did you let a little slip? How can you be really curious what I can dial in for you when you are not going to try what I share?
Yes 100% I monitored what your effects were doing, made my own changes and within a couple of hours found something that isnt that bad for a TT25.

So far I just did RPM & PARAMETRIC engine but those stereo based ROAD VIBES you have for some reason, set to "mono" look like they can easily be improved on. Is auto calibration that good? Or will/can other manual settings provide much more feedback, mmmm?

Based though on your response I have seen, and the fact you do not want or need anyones help, Well no point me waisting my own time doing those or anything else. The examples I have done will be shared later this evening when I can upload them.


To those interested......
Ever wonder, how cool would it be to see things, and then wireless send that to a tablet/phone for realtime monitoring....
Shared this before but it is an excellent tool and can be had for upto 50% off if bought at the right time.
Well recommended.

Spoiler: Useful To Others

Multiple TT25 - Foam - Users Back
These are my own views based on my own experiences with tactile.
We can place units like a TT25 into a neoprene based cover to soften/cushion the unit and set it in behind our backs.
I think this would give as close to what he is experiencing but is something I tried in the past anyways.

Some foam in between a seat and a users back directly pressing into each unit is not an ideal way to experience how the tactile is being transferred into a person. We may have been here before but stick with me...

Why Mr Latte?
The vibration is then very direct between the unit and the points of body contact, to some this can feel unatural. It can easily get midly annoying to uncomfortable at raised volumes (more on this later) and anyone that has used vibration vests, rumble pads or the SRS kit using the TT25 will maybe be able to relate and understand what I mean here.

Beyond the gimmick stuff, No serious tactile company I know of has produced a tactile product that clamps/attaches to your body, it attaches to a surface/object so that the vibration can spread over that, and is not a 1-1 direct feedback in the same manner.

Exciters or transducers attacthed to a shell/hard back seat "will spread that vibration all over that object" which then the body is in contact with and not just at selected pin point zones as in his usage case. Even units on the back of a seat may have what we refer to as a "hotspot" at the point of its location. However each will be two quite different experiences.


The volume issue...

This brings another potential disadvantage.
If you cant run higher volumes with a 1-1 direct contact installation like he is applying, due to it feeling unatural/uncomfortable.
This will not help with what I cover below.

A way to configure units, that some like to do....
The frequencies a unit may output with less power, to better feel those we can apply more volume to those frequencies, and reduce the volume of the peak frequencies the unit has. One way of doing that is to increase the soundcard to 100% to get the max potential from the harder to produce frequencies. By also raising the volumes of effects using those harder to generate frequencies a specific unit has. The aim here is to maximise the range you can feel, taking it as low as possible to then utilise within effects.

All we then need to do is just take care that effects or indvidual effect layers utilising frequencies the unit can generate well are not set too high to avoid damage or feel overbearing. User preference and moods can vary as what may feel ideal to each person, but their seems to be a connection between volumes and frequencies where you can land a sweetspot in the felt sensation.



The Common Approaches
Generally we want a surface/object to be vibrated as then the vibration spreads over that material or object and this is what we find is being done with the vast majority of approaches used with tactile.

Ask yourselves, why do we not see, all those with the top end rigs using TT25 based seat pads for their tactile?
Why are people not using vibration vests, or do any of you remember that vibrating necklace that once appeared.

 

[hawkeyez]

If you think anybody is following us butting heads, well that might actually be the problem here. I ain’t looking for an audience. I will defend my setup, but only when your snark remarks surface that is.

To be clear, I never asked for help with SimHub settings, I faintly recall asking about Wheel Lock in the past as it didn’t seem like it was working correctly because it was just on all the time. I figured I must be missing some option. My tires can’t be constantly slipping cruising down a straight. I believe back then, it was confirmed by others that yes, it isn’t quite right in GT7 so you have to get creative to try and make something work. I did 100% ask about mounting the TT25’s for ideas because I wanted to know if anybody had mounted directly on the rig or in or against the seat. I got my answer then. That was it.

No, I am not at all curious what you have been trying to dial in for me. Oddly, you didn’t pick up on my sarcasm on that one.

You’re like a door to door salesman with this stuff. Do you really care that passionately about trying to get some stranger in another country using the same gear you have or recommend along with the SimHub settings you provide or is it something else driving your behaviour?

My paragraph describing my rig was my way of trying to make a point to you that I am satisfied with what I have. Again, you can’t seem to accept that, I’m pretty sure I have expressed my thoughts on my rig in the past and whether I’m satisfied with it or not. If I wasn’t satisfied with it…I would be asking, but I haven’t been trying to improve it, and I haven’t been asking for ways to improve it. For some reason you think I am or have been. Hence the constant barrage of digs towards the tt25’s and the “van seat” and now digging into my SimHub settings.

I can read you like a book, I called it when you asked for my settings. I said sure I can send them but I know EXACTLY what’s coming.

Work on yourself instead of trying to work on my rig. Thank you.

 

[Mr Latte]

Due to the restrictions with the TT25 it is more limited in the power we want/need for enjoying properly specific frequencies.
So while I have tried to utilise not just single or static frequences, this is to help give effects a better response for low/high values.

Read the notes within profile, this was quite a quick test and ACC was used rather than GT7 so the RPM might not be optimal on some cars with GT7.



ROAD VIBRATIONS
These apply two layers, to give more range in feel. Also the activity is increased with the approach used, this can be felt down straights or small bumps in road surfaces.


RPM
Was altered to again utilise two layers, and give each of these its own response curve, this helps give an engine more general sensation that the user can adapt with the indvidual volumes. Idle now feels more lively and lumpy but the different applied response curves also help to deliver a wider range of the RPM and give an improved sensation with deceleration.

PARAMETRIC ENGINE was adapted to try and utilise more of the TT25s range but again its limited ability to deliver the power with key frequencies is noticable compared to some other units.

This comparison with these effects will be sent to those interested, just ask in DM...

 

[Mr Latte]

If you think anybody is following us butting heads, well that might actually be the problem here. I ain’t looking for an audience. I will defend my setup, but only when your snark remarks surface that is.

To be clear, I never asked for help with SimHub settings, I faintly recall asking about Wheel Lock in the past as it didn’t seem like it was working correctly because it was just on all the time. I figured I must be missing some option. My tires can’t be constantly slipping cruising down a straight. I believe back then, it was confirmed by others that yes, it isn’t quite right in GT7 so you have to get creative to try and make something work. I did 100% ask about mounting the TT25’s for ideas because I wanted to know if anybody had mounted directly on the rig or in or against the seat. I got my answer then. That was it.

No, I am not at all curious what you have been trying to dial in for me. Oddly, you didn’t pick up on my sarcasm on that one.

You’re like a door to door salesman with this stuff. Do you really care that passionately about trying to get some stranger in another country using the same gear you have or recommend along with the SimHub settings you provide or is it something else driving your behaviour?

My paragraph describing my rig was my way of trying to make a point to you that I am satisfied with what I have. Again, you can’t seem to accept that, I’m pretty sure I have expressed my thoughts on my rig in the past and whether I’m satisfied with it or not. If I wasn’t satisfied with it…I would be asking, but I haven’t been trying to improve it, and I haven’t been asking for ways to improve it. For some reason you think I am or have been. Hence the constant barrage of digs towards the tt25’s and the “van seat” and now digging into my SimHub settings.

I can read you like a book, I called it when you asked for my settings. I said sure I can send them but I know EXACTLY what’s coming.

Work on yourself instead of trying to work on my rig. Thank you.

Heres is what we have learned...

"Your tactile is quite amazing, the effects you use are awesome, you have no need, reason or desire to tweak or change your tactile"

1. So why then, do you bother wasting your time in a thread here?
2. What are you bringing here, that is going to be positve or benefit you me or others?
3. Your seat and installation approach does not represent the setup configuration most aspire to own!
4. Most will not really care about your seat or that you cant have fun being made about it.
5. I can laugh at my own situation and see the funny side with it maybe you should learn to do that more too.


When you went on about how great your tactile was. In doing that you are giving people here an impression and from that well then everyone should just keep buying "TT25" shouldnt they. It comes across like you now intentionally are after some payback. It is like you are saying, dont listen to this dude, my "TT25" setup is awesome and why, all this because you cant take a joke about your seat!

You have got to experience one of the lower end examples of what tactile can offer and thats not to say that as an experience is not fun or immersive. I have been through all levels of tactile, so my perspective and ways to determine something is quite different to yours.

Try to appreciate that more, to what your own persective and experiences are. For someone that has used the effects you have for approx a year, then that highlights to me just how much or what you may have missed. I am certain a lot of people here are in a similar situation but maybe they at least try to tweak or imrpove effects they have or share with others. I do struggle to understand why some people who love what tactile offers then would settle with what you have. As it is not that expensive to take it up another notch or two. In this regard you really seem to be a unique case on a different level in utter refusal to things but really what you then miss out on, is all your own loss.

Lets just be clear, you are happy, we have all been clearly told such. Yet you also appear to be as stubborn as a mule, but my hope is others will see that same attitude you have is only robbing yourself of more fun and immersion that your fave sim games could offer.

So yes I challenged you to show your profile/settings to try to determine what level of immersion you would be at with the "TT25".
That is fair, if you keep telling people here how great it all is.

What I then learned is, well really these effects you have are not much different to standard effects, minor changes. So again what we find is, the story you tell, the impression you give is not backed up at all when it is put into perspective of things.

It is not just with the hardware but the effects themselves, when challenged then you see such as only a personal attack. When it is just evaulating with the spectrum analysis tools, how well you are utilising those units you own with those effects and settings applied. I pointed out that only 17hz was being used in varation, oh but no you wont consider this could be one way to improve things. You go on another rant about how you are using the effects/channels.

* I noticed a mistake in the image I showed, it lists your effects examples I compared only use 6Hz (ignoring the parametric engine) when in fact it is 8Hz. My own examples with only a quick go at things, has over 5x more frequency range being utiilised. It just highlights how easy it would have been for you to produce a wider range of sensations between those effects alone. Yet because you want to be a complete bonehead, you would rather refuse even trying them, it shows how spiteful over something so silly you are.

Yep, you may not care because you continually refuse to accept things or take advice but hopefully others will have a different outlook.

It might be good enough for you and clearly you are happy with that, but people should know much better is possible.
Someone might come along at some stage if wading through all this, that actually does care, that does want to get what can give them not just average sensations but bring improved fun and immersion.

Points to highlight and this is my last on this.

1. THIS is not just about your rig or you because loads of people have the TT25 model and or other quite limited hardware too
2. THEY are not boasting in detail about how good their tactile and effects are with such but YOU are
3. US continually debating over something you have little clue/experience about, was highlighted by your own effects and settings
4. WHY, all because you cannot have someone make a silly joke which you cant deal with and then fire back
5. IGNORE anything to do with any potential topics/threads I do on tactile, you clearly do not need any help or advice

My recent discussion was about the "TT25" as well including other "budget" transducers / exciters and how this new model released only since November last year is a game changer in what it can bring in performance and improvements to the immersion felt.

The unanswered question - What is the best budget tactile hardware arrangement to buy in 2024?

I believe I have found a solution...
This deserves its own thread, it deserves to have new effects made that can be specifically developed to suit GT7 and this units particular operating characteristics. As a concept it is also being worked on, based from past experiences but also taking into account new things learned regards effects creation. It will be free, not only does it cost me time and money but I have no intention to make it something being done to profit from. What it requires is development with people but ones that are passionate about tactile, who are willing to follow recommended guidelines and put some time/effort in or help with testing. I am setting up my own test rig for this to help with PC and GT7 potential profiles and working step by step with several newcomers as well as advnaced users to tactile.

 

[hawkeyez]

Yet because you want to be a complete bonehead, you would rather refuse even trying them, it shows how spiteful over something so silly you are.

Work on yourself instead of trying to work on my rig. Thank you.

 

[Clacky78]

This should serve as a place for everyone to discuss all things related to GT7 and SimHub Tactile effects.
'ShakeIt Bass Shaker' settings/profiles
'ShakeIt Motor' settings/profiles

Hi Guy's anyone else had any trouble with SIMHUB GT7 connection since last physics change? It just sits there saying waiting for data on mine and then suddenly kicks occasionally 10-15 mins later.. was running faultlessly until Thursdays update 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[g0al3d]

I'm interested in these new transducers Mr Latte, However I'm trying to understand if they attach via 3M double sided tape? or need to be drilled into the seat itself? I have a very nice COBRA race bucket, but it may have to go back into a race car at some point (if only temporarily) so i would prefer NOT to drill into it. I assume the configuration of these new transducers would follow what you posted before? Or is there a more ideal layout between a hard shell racing bucket and say a pedal plate? I foolishly tried to go down the "4 corners" route so i have 4 BK mini LFEs and 2 AITMA A07 amps. I'm currently running one BK under the pedal plate and one attached to the rail under my bucket

This is ok, but not what I was imagining from an immersion standpoint. I installed some rudimentary isolation under my seat using rubber vibration pads made for mounting AC units https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CP3Y52TK/?tag=gtplanet-20 and these made a difference. However I cannot really isolate the pedal plate due to how it is designed
.
Anyway I guess long story short if you can share a playbook here for recommended amplification and transducer placement I'm down to go down the rabbit hole with you

 

[g0al3d]

answered my own question - they can attach via 3m tape

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi, glad to help and welcome then, to the rabbit hole....
You have found 4 corners lacking? Do you care to express more why you went from this to only 1 unit on seat and pedals?


Regards the IMS threaded part, it also has two holes, so that can be mounted via screws/bolts or potentially additional superglue.
Perhaps not ideal for all seats, however so far it seems on most seats these are sticking quite well with the standard 3M.

We can also look into applying (Dual Lock) as this was good in the past with other units which seemed to not use as strong of a 3M sticky back solution.


My aging seat has seen a lot of tactile testing action. Here is an example of top left shoulder region. (P1)
I have had to dismantle much of my old rig in preparing for the new build. Still some previous units on the seat to detach yet.

This Cobra recliner seat has been used for over 6 years, still comfy too (Misano 30th Anniversary).
It has a carbon based back and I understand the desire not to ruin seats. On my own seat, the units appear to attach well enough to it. So far anyways but different seats vary in curvature and materials or how well this 3M stick to them?


Amps:
I have been testing a few different amps and these are easy to power but the current recommended amplifier is the (Nobsound M5). This offers multichannel inputs so we can have it powering 6x independent channels from Simhub.

Tests have been conducted on seat and pedals but I just recently ordered more to have 8x BDS units back onto my own seat.
This will let me develop more the effects in how we (map) specific effects to different channels or pairs of units.


Story:
The concept is like before but this new model of exciter in the BDS model changes up what we can achieve now in quality and with improved low bass abilities. The BDS appears to be a very musical unit, which then makes it also ideal with the approach I apply in creating my own effects based on musical principles and utilising octave bands. As far as I know, I was the first to do this with effects creation. Combining the multi-layer approach and looking to apply wider frequency ranges for effects to utilise.

I do not have an official thread or guide for this yet, simply because it is still in a testing phase. Currently it is experimenting with others how well effects I can offer work with this approach and how we go beyond the normal or more traditional methods. Many hours have already been put into effects work but I have acquired a skillset with this now that is quite good. I believe upto a standard that should compete well with whatever anyone else has to offer.

Speaking of which, some are different in the approaches they use and seek to create custom effects in coding within Simhub. All I can tell you here is, what matters to me is how the effect feels for the role it is being applied and how we combine better, multiple effects operations to bring a greater level of sensation.

My aim, is to continue to apply what I have learned and continue to learn. Using this towards how we apply multiple effects and give different effects their own characteristics to bring more enjoyment and thrill to the experience. Many people have little understanding as to how/what some of the options in Simhub actually does, regards the output of the generated effects and settings. That is one reason why I also highlighted the spectrum analysis as a useful tool to aid effects development and gain more knowledge on what Simhub is indeed outputting.


What To Buy?
Here is a quick, what to buy list below:
It is possible to use various budget amps but my goal is to find product solutions that work well and make things easier.
The ideal scenario, is discovering a selection of products that can become the recomended hardware to buy and this then puts people all on the same hardware, which only helps with profile creation, profile sharing. The idea, is somone with no or little experience can buy the recommended gear, configure as instructed and enjoy the effects with as little hassle as possible.

So far testing/feedback has been positive...

• Nobsound M5 Amplifier (Set amp to 5.1 Input Mode)
• Dayton X32VBDS Exciter 40W (how many you want to start with)
• Female Disconnect Crimp Terminal 0.110" (14-16 AWG)
• Male Disconnect Crimp Terminal 0.205" (14-16AWG)
• Decent Quality 14 or 16 AWG speaker cable
• Banana Speaker Cable Plugs (for amp optional)
• Startech 7.1 USB soundcard (this specific model is one of the best)
• Soundcard Cables - Example (choose length / number needed / 7.1 = 4x cables for 8x exciters)

Affordable Tools:
Crimping Tool / Wire Stripper / Cutting Blade

So many options in these and you can find tools that offer crimping / stripping / cutting ( all 3 in one ).

Look up videos on these if needed on how to use or prepare the cables. For some, I know this is daunting or the the part they are not comfortable with, but it's rather easy guys with the tools and watching a few videos to build confidence.


Cable Tidying:
Tidying of cables is possible or how we dress the cables to look nicer, also how it would be possible to have an easy disconnect from the seat and the cable run going back to the amps. These are things that can be offered in a proper guide when the experimental work has been establised with those, (like yourself) who want to be early adopters.


*Note:
The BDS exciter uses a rather odd size for its + terminal connection. It is not the more common 6.3mm.
Instead it is 5.21mm and not so easily found on ebay etc. I recommend people buy them from "Sound Imports" & "Parts Express" and get a few spares/extra when purchasing the exciters.


General Report:
The above combination appears to be working superbly and I know of a few others I am helping which have bought these components and not heard of issues yet. The amp can operate with a secondary PSU when powering 6 channels but seems to be okay with 6x 4ohm units. This may be different if someone was using 6x 8ohm speakers or transducers. Testing continues and more are enquiring on a weekly basis. The request is people stick to the recommended hardware and installation guidelines.


Exciter Seat Configuration:
In testing the unit layout for the seat, has been based on the following for upto 8x units in the back of the seat:

3x Stereo pairs from top down = shoulders /mid-sides / lower back. (Seat P1 P2 P3)
1x Mono unit, central placed to between shoulders/spine (Seat M1)
1x Mono unit, central placed to lower back (Seat M2)

This lets me apply specific "Mono" based effects to the central positions and lets us try different combinations in how we apply "Stereo" effects to any or all of those P1 P2 P3 pairs. What I seek is feedback from people in which/how they find key effects combos are mapped. Some people may prefer to swich how/where certain effects are applied to other users preferences, but this is part of the benefits with this approach.


3D Printing Request:
I am seeking people that have experience with 3D printing as some things I want to discuss/try to improve how these units can be installed and appear for various types of pedals and seat installations

Those interested can contact me on DM

 

[g0al3d]

The 4 corner solution was just muddy which makes sense given that the rig is very rigid and low frequency vibration is very difficult (almost impossible) to localize. Thus why subwoofers in home theaters can be very flexibly placed (within reason due to room effect etc.). What I found is that it was A: overkill and B: did not produce localized effects as I would have hoped/wanted. The single transducer under the pedal plate and under the seat does a slightly better job (especially when I added some isolation between the seat frame and the rig (albeit not as fancy or effective as other options i have seen). I recently ordered a set of 2 Simagic pedal transducers as I saw and heard a lot of positivity around them but have not installed them yet (still waiting for printed mounts). This is also before I found this thread you made https://www.overtake.gg/threads/new-tactile-hardware-2023-2024.266698/page-11#post-3783911. After reading this more it appears that the Simagic transducers may not be as effective as I would have been lead to believe. I was going to try them out just for my own edification but may end up returning them if the BDS exciters offer a better solution on the pedals. Here are my initial (failed) implementations of the BK mini LFEs

this is when I got the isolation pads and wanted to move the units closer to the seat which was better but 2 units under the seat was overkill


I wanted them inside of the rig profile to avoid VR cable snagging and drunken foot injury . In that last photo you can barely see the top of the transducers peeking through. My main point of consternation atm is the inability to isolate the pedal plate from the rest of the rig, and i am happy with it from a functionality standpoint, but it's not conducive to mounting exciters as it will transmit vibration effectively to the rest of the rig. I think at the moment the thing I am most interested in is getting the seat sorted out with the solution you provided and work out from there. I am referring to this image you posted earlier as reference for mounting points, is this still valid?

or is this more in line with what you are suggesting with the squares being the mono exciter placement?