HyperSpeeder
(Banned)
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- Brazil
GT7 has failed to be Gran Turismo
- Thread starter m76
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Why play gt7 when you can argue about gt7 
- 2,418
- The failed experiment entitled “California”.
Why play gt7 when you can argue about gt7
Personally for me it’s two-fold. I’m cleaning out the garage in order to set up my sim operation out there. And I’ve got motorcycles to wrench on. Other than that, I’ll be on tonight trying to bang out some missions. Been lagging a bit trying to get all the single player content finished before I go all in on sport mode
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- 6,764
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- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
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- Neomone
If you mean "on Playstation" then say that instead of "on console".
And no, there have been a number of times when even massive Gran Turismo fans thought that Forza was at worst comparable. Gran Turismo fans like driving games, and usually don't write off good games just because they don't have "Gran Turismo" in the title.
FM4 was solidly competitive with the broken mess that was GT5, and tended to get held up as an example of what GT5 should have been.
FM5 and 6 vs. GT6? Swings and roundabouts - do you want massive amounts of content running poorly on decade old hardware, or do you want a small quantity of the latest and shiniest assets running at a smooth framerate?
FM7 was significantly better for people who wanted a traditional GT-style game than GTS. You know, that whole backlash against a game based around online play thing?
The latest version of FM isn't out yet, but even GT7 vs. FM7 isn't exactly clear cut as to which is superior unless you're heavily into photography and Scapes.
And Forza Horizon offers a type of experience that simply isn't available in a Gran Turismo game, in combination with traditional Gran Turismo car lists and customisation. For people who enjoy a more casual and broad style of gameplay, Gran Turismo is going to struggle to compete.
Even the most hardcore fan will admit that it's not as simple as GT>Forza at any point over both title's histories. Both game series have had way too many fumbles for that to even be remotely true. People who confidently assert "GT>Forza always" are just outing themselves as either completely unaware of one of the series or just willfully oblivious.
- 2,418
- The failed experiment entitled “California”.
All fair points.
Having played through most of the Forza series, I always felt that Forza lacked the "soul" that Gran Turismo always seemed to capture. That of course, is subjective, and akin to someone being a Ford over a Chevy fan.
Sounds a lot like this whole Gran Turismo 7 mess. While instead of content running poorly on decade old hardware, we're talking coding. Which is the same thing. But you're smart enough to get that.
Like I've said in several other threads, and now here. I really think that this whole mess GT7 is in, is because the order came down from Sony to make GT7 a cross-play game. Had PD been able to spend the last 9 months before launch polishing up GT7 for PS5, instead of trying to figure out how to make GT7 playable on PS4, we wouldn't be here. Yes, I will concede that Sony's choice to make GT7 cross play in order to recoup investments was the right one, given the situation at the time. But wether that was the right long term decision is yet to be seen. Even though my personal opinions are at direct odds with my next statement; in a year's time when GT7 has finally un-forked itself... I still think that making GT7 cross play was the right business decision by Sony
- 13,865
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- Neomone
Right, so when you start saying stuff like "its only rival is GTS" you come off like a mad brand warrior.
I dunno about that. The core problems with GT7 by and large aren't coding or hardware related, they're design related. The PS4 isn't holding them back from having more events and an engaging career mode. Online stuff worked much better in GTS.
Be that as it may, here is where we are. We can speculate all day about what might have been, but this is the game that Polyphony chose to make. We can speculate all night about what the game might be in a year when Polyphony has finished fixing it, but that's not what it is now.
So it takes a year for it to un-fork itself, but it's still currently the most complete modern racing game on a console? I'd suggest that such a game probably shouldn't need to un-fork itself in the first place.
You can have fun with a game and admit that it's not the greatest game in it's genre. That's okay. It's okay to admit that the game has problems but you're willing to overlook them because you're enjoying yourself in a way that isn't that affected but them.
Those games like PC2/ACC/AMS2/rF2/R3E/iR that the "hardcore" simmists are all into? You'll find it tough to find many people who will legitimately declare one of those hands down the best over all the others. We all know that they all have limitations, problems and bugs, and while one might be better for a certain playstyle there absolutely is not a clear winner over all categories. It's not even about personal preference, objectively none of them are overall the best without compromises. Even just to recommend one to a friend I probably want to talk to them about how they like to play first.
It's still fun to win a long race in ACC though.
GT7 is fine. It does a few things well, a bunch of stuff okay, and it has a handful of problems which just happen to be annoyingly central to the way a lot of people want to play these sorts of games. It's far from the genre-defining behemoth that something like GT4 was, and probably no game ever will be again. It's a middling Gran Turismo that will fill the gap while we all wait in anticipation for GT8 in the hope that it will actually advance the caRPG formula somewhat.
I think in ten years GTS will be remembered more than GT7. GTS pushed the genre forward. GT7 looks pretty and drives nice.
- 923
- Wales
- Neil Pearl Jam
- NEILPEARLJAM
Oh my 🙈 this is embarrassing
- 290
- Bolton
Sales figures do not necessarily mean the game is good or the games designer have done a good job. The pre release reviews that for whatever their reasons implied that you must buy the game as it is the best yet have a major influence on the sales imo. It seems to me alot of people are regretting their purchase.
- 107
- Germany
Hi,
And so we are mostly Back at the Beginning, right?
The disappointment ist Not related to GT7 being a technically Bad Game, a Game With a top small Number of Cars or the Cars being ridiculous simulated.
We are Back at Contest and Presentation of Content. The Idea to Switch from - Player find you own way through literally hundreds of Races to ... Oh Here is a Guy telling you some crazy stuff (you usually mostly knew) and then Sending you to some Races where you win no Credits and Cars you mostly never considered driving in Single Player - don't Work. It might Work as Kind of Tutorial maybe also als guidance. But With all Others parts being away - the Game looses its Spirit and Motivation.
And follow Up - you get then angry in Others Details.
And dears - of course graphics and Sales are important. Without graphics a Game might apeal a Few nerds - but you cannot get Sales, that justify News Content, new releases - because Nobody would Finance them.
And so we are mostly Back at the Beginning, right?
The disappointment ist Not related to GT7 being a technically Bad Game, a Game With a top small Number of Cars or the Cars being ridiculous simulated.
We are Back at Contest and Presentation of Content. The Idea to Switch from - Player find you own way through literally hundreds of Races to ... Oh Here is a Guy telling you some crazy stuff (you usually mostly knew) and then Sending you to some Races where you win no Credits and Cars you mostly never considered driving in Single Player - don't Work. It might Work as Kind of Tutorial maybe also als guidance. But With all Others parts being away - the Game looses its Spirit and Motivation.
And follow Up - you get then angry in Others Details.
And dears - of course graphics and Sales are important. Without graphics a Game might apeal a Few nerds - but you cannot get Sales, that justify News Content, new releases - because Nobody would Finance them.
- 159
- Equalityland
The older games especially GT3>4 [but not GT1>2 never played them] was very fun and especially the re-playability. Menu choice doesn't count because it did not make the games less fun.
If PD included an editor or actual options in single player and online races it would have been a good game if the events were mostly same quantity as GT4/GT5/GT6. But alas, PD can't be bothered to even include all GTS single player events even if it takes only a few days to code.
The VGT's for me is like a parallel or equivalent to the LM race cars in GT4>4 so they are fun to have and to drive.
If Sony fired Kazunori Yamauchi or made him include the player options we have in GT3>4>5 then GT7 would be great again!I've lost hope in PD and GT, it's just not going to be as good as we want, it's done. It's been done since the GT5 disappointment. And it's always the same excuse "PS2 not powerfull enough for proper AI and damage" then the PS3 " hard to program for", now "Because it's held back by PS4". But they got me, I bought the game and have played it 2 times before realising it was botched.
Truth is, PD doesn't care, they don't communicate with us, never have. GT Sport was like a dead cat bounce, I thought the game was an amazing improvement from the previous games, maybe because it was the first time they actively tried to collect feedback.....And now it's gone.
Forget about GT guys....It's never going to be good again, and I'm sad to say it
Edit : If we are being honest, if PD was not a Japanese studio, Sony would have sold them or closed them already. Evolution Studio wasn't given half the tolerance that PD gets before being closed. Sony closed the wrong studio
- 50,878
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Honestly, when we had to wait for next GT Titles, I’d pick up a Forza title. Then, after GT6, I went in on PC tiles. GT Sport, I got AC and ACC. Couldn’t believe what I was missing by playing Gran Turismo.
To me, other titles didn’t have the feel of GT(from menu Music to replays). However, some features, I couldn’t understand why GT didn’t have some that other titles do and now, finally getting in GT7.
Anyway, I don’t compare titles any longer. I look at car lists. Cars I like, if they’re in another game, I’m getting that game. Which I have been doing.
- 1,466
- Indonesia
The trend is switching into Forza and never looking back.
GT1 and GT2 had the menu shortcut feature in GT Mode of which PD for some asinine reasons removed them in GT3 (and never returned yet until GT7 now, if it's one of the reasons GT7 had been bashed for then the old games should get that too, mind you a newer PS2 game to PS1 one). Why the replayability factor should be really high and fun if those games also has horrible rally physics (era doesn't matter), shallow racing part (for something called racing game), grinding (esp. GT3), etc.?
Ironically for all the earned cynicism for PD now, for some reason the view to anyone other than Kaz is blindly positive (it'd be guaranteed better or something).
- 107
- Germany
@equalitus - the question would be - would you also be so Happy With GT3, If you Had Played GT2? I Skipped GT3, because IT was also disappointing me for Lack of Content.
And today IT IS even worse - in Times of GT3 and GT4 there were no real competitors - either lacking Tracks, Cars, realism and so on. Today competion is much closer. Others are either as good in Most parts and some are better in Others parts.
If you are interested in very accurate racind Simulation - and don't Need 400+ Cars - I totally get the critics. And I also See, that PD needs to so Something more, because a big Number of Player don't Just expect a good Game - but a extremely good Game. If all expectations can Bet Met - i don't think so. But this is what this discussion is mostly about.
And today IT IS even worse - in Times of GT3 and GT4 there were no real competitors - either lacking Tracks, Cars, realism and so on. Today competion is much closer. Others are either as good in Most parts and some are better in Others parts.
If you are interested in very accurate racind Simulation - and don't Need 400+ Cars - I totally get the critics. And I also See, that PD needs to so Something more, because a big Number of Player don't Just expect a good Game - but a extremely good Game. If all expectations can Bet Met - i don't think so. But this is what this discussion is mostly about.
Think that's pretty much it. Most people who heavily praise the game just don't play other racing games. I understand PC sims are hard if you don't hava proper rig. I used to love GT because it was pretty much the best on a controller..but now even other "simcade" games are way ahead.
For exemple when GRID released it was such a massive slap compared to GT5. It's so weird that some people don't seem to think that the driving is the most important part of a car game, not making good photos.
Dirt Rally is considered one of the hardest racing games but it still feels amazing on a controller. The game has pretty much nothing in it, the only thing you can do is drive, yet I'd rather play it than GT7
- 107
- Germany
Hi,
But you must also noticed one Argument -
99% of people driving a real Car - never understand its driving physics or Go to its Handling borders. There was Something surprising a Few years ago - BMW asked a Few 1000 of their new buyers - to explain then, which axle is used in the Standard 1 Serien for Transmission. 75% responded the Front axle ...
So If already 75% of BMW buyers doesn't Care for that - how will IT be in a Game?
I am Sure, that a too good Simulation and a too hard Game will BE a massive drawback in Sales. And finally - a Game must sell and make Profit. It doesn't Need to satisfy the Hardcore racing Sim people. Most people want to Drive fast, easy and want IT not too complicated and in Cars they either cannot afford or being faster as those in Cars they might ve able to buy. And Most don't even have the possibility to compare it ist real counterpart. So they will never notice that the 996GT3 doesn't really behave Like the original. They usually don't even know how fast their Corolla could really be, If they knew how to Drive really.
So I doubt that - If you want a super SIM - you will ever find IT really in a Mass Market Game. So some Problems will ever be there.
BR K.
But you must also noticed one Argument -
99% of people driving a real Car - never understand its driving physics or Go to its Handling borders. There was Something surprising a Few years ago - BMW asked a Few 1000 of their new buyers - to explain then, which axle is used in the Standard 1 Serien for Transmission. 75% responded the Front axle ...
So If already 75% of BMW buyers doesn't Care for that - how will IT be in a Game?
I am Sure, that a too good Simulation and a too hard Game will BE a massive drawback in Sales. And finally - a Game must sell and make Profit. It doesn't Need to satisfy the Hardcore racing Sim people. Most people want to Drive fast, easy and want IT not too complicated and in Cars they either cannot afford or being faster as those in Cars they might ve able to buy. And Most don't even have the possibility to compare it ist real counterpart. So they will never notice that the 996GT3 doesn't really behave Like the original. They usually don't even know how fast their Corolla could really be, If they knew how to Drive really.
So I doubt that - If you want a super SIM - you will ever find IT really in a Mass Market Game. So some Problems will ever be there.
BR K.
FerrariF40
(Banned)
- 404
- Australia
BMW series 1 is a girls car and its no wonder that they dont know which axle is driven
Scaff
Moderator
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- ScaffUK
This is a myth, accurate physics don't make a title harder to drive, quite the opposite.
Older sim titles used to suffer from that for a few of reasons, either the devs fell into the trap that difficult = accurate, the engine used was too detailed for the tech of the day, or the engine had a fundamental flaw that just plain broke some of it.
Let's leave the inaccurate sexist crap at the door thanks.
FerrariF40
(Banned)
- 404
- Australia
It isnt "sexist crap" !
According to official government data its 5th most driven cars by women.
According to official government data its 5th most driven cars by women.
- 209
- Belgium
It is true that most of the buyers didn't know that the 1 series was RWD: "CEO Norbert Reithofer revealed that 80 percent of 1-series owners believe they are driving a front-wheel drive car.
Reithofer explained that he is not worried about adding a front-wheel drive model to BMW’s lineup, but he did admit that the survey results on the 1-series came as “quite a surprise” to the automaker."
But it is indeed inaccurate that most of them are women: "Target buyers: 1-series buyers have an average age of 40 and 40 percent are women."
- 107
- Germany
Hi,
Sure acurate physics will BE a drawback. Not for interested people - I know how my Cars Drive on racing Tracks and I also Tested Out the borders of driveability.
But Most Drivers don't know this - they never experienced that and so, If the Simulation is acurate - they will understand this as either ridiculous or Not controlable. But you Need These people for good Sales. And they want more Arcade and also early wins. This is a typical Problem I face also in my Job - you/WE are interested in this area and WE want an experience of realism. But WE are maybe 10% of the Players, If wie are so many. What you understand aß acurate - is very likely too much for am average 5h/Week Player.
BR K
Sure acurate physics will BE a drawback. Not for interested people - I know how my Cars Drive on racing Tracks and I also Tested Out the borders of driveability.
But Most Drivers don't know this - they never experienced that and so, If the Simulation is acurate - they will understand this as either ridiculous or Not controlable. But you Need These people for good Sales. And they want more Arcade and also early wins. This is a typical Problem I face also in my Job - you/WE are interested in this area and WE want an experience of realism. But WE are maybe 10% of the Players, If wie are so many. What you understand aß acurate - is very likely too much for am average 5h/Week Player.
BR K
Scaff
Moderator
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- He/Him
- ScaffUK
Which still has a majority of male drivers and also has nothing to do with knowing which end is driven.
Please don't attempt to retcon your post, simply move on and don't do it again.
- 5,666
- Paint booth
- FMecha_EXE
@o000o pointed out the lack of ability to switch between license tests/challenges from the pre-test menu in GT7 is something that GT3 (and by extension, the Japanese version of GT4) had. That alone was enough to convince him it was the case.
The period-correct barometer at the time seem to lean with TOCA series and/or Papyrus' NASCAR titles when you take sales out of calculation (something that people also pointed out re: GT7 sales vs player engagement).
(Also since you brought up Test Drive - a glaring issue regarding car rosters can be seen as early as GT2, which did not have the C5 Corvette or the facelift 4th-gen Camaro, "unattainable" stuff aside.)
Firing Kaz would mean shutting down PD.
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Scaff
Moderator
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- ScaffUK
No it wouldn't, Kaz doesn't own PD.
PD is a wholly owned Sony studio (and always has been), as such it more than possible it could continue post Kaz. Take Rare as an example, it's two founders* were hands-on with every release they put out, they left in 2007 (five years after rare became a wholly owned MS studio), Rare still very much exists as a studio.
Ditto GT as a series being able to survive if Kaz were to go, it's Sony's IP, and as such both PD and GT could well both continue to exist if Kaz left, I would argue that the vast majority of GT players don't know or care who he is, in the same way that most BMW owners couldn't tell you who founded the company or who runs it currently.
*The Stamper brothers, who in terms of infleunce in the video game industry are more than on par with Kaz's (if not more so):
"Bloomberg Businessweek described the brothers' software as having "something of a Beatles-scale fandom" in the mid-1980s,[7] and Next Generation named the brothers among the most influential people in the games industry in 1995.[35] Develop recognised the brothers as Development Legends at their 2015 Develop Industry Excellence Awards.[36] The 2015 Ultimate and Rare retrospective Rare Replay features a stamp collection game mechanic, in which the player receives stamps as awards that are used to unlock videos about the companies' past. The choice of "stamps" was in tribute to the Stamper brothers"
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamper_brothers#Legacy
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