GTP NASCAR SPRINT CUP S3 Champs: RFLX_Niop, Joe Gibbs Racing, Toyota

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I guess it depends on how Knelly classifies Nationwide drivers such as yourself, Nater, Litchi, etc for this season. Either way, you can compete against those same guys for it this season or next. ;)

But Mule made the Chase and everything, that's a hard merit to outclass even as a team owner. :crazy:
 
MÜLE_9242;7298193
You're still getting points for 5th place. I'm the only one actually getting a real penalty.

If he's insisting that everyone that screwed up Saturday get a penalty, I can definitely do that. I don't think he (or anyone else) is going to like the end result of that any better, though.

I'll let you guys figure it out. Keep the standings as proposed (Matty 5th/Knelly 6th and Knelly +1 point/Mule -1 point), or penalize everyone as needed, which could drastically alter the finishing order and/or the final points received. I'm ok with either way. You guys tell me what you want me to do.
 
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You've never been liberal with penalties. No sense in starting in the middle of a season. If we want stricter penalties, start it next season.
 
MÜLE_9242;7298244
You've never been liberal with penalties. No sense in starting in the middle of a season. If we want stricter penalties, start it next season.

Well, like Tom said, warnings can't really be handed forever. A line needs to be drawn somewhere and in that latest race, several questionable incidents occurred near the end for which I would possibly have given a penalty even with the involved drivers having no prior warnings in their tally.
 
Carbonox
Well, like Tom said, warnings can't really be handed forever. A line needs to be drawn somewhere and in that latest race, several questionable incidents occurred near the end for which I would possibly have given a penalty even with the involved drivers having no prior warnings in their tally.

Yeah, I agree Carb.
 
Last Saturday. But only in the circumstances where carelessness or disregard for ettiquete by a driver has resulted in a wreck. If it's a tiny little misjudgement by a driver under pressure, that's just a racing incident. But you know that already i'm guessing 👍
 
You are wrong again, and you are still not listening. As I mentioned at the start of the day, it's not about the points any more, it's the principal of how this has all been handled and the complete lack of consistency. Sorry to say this but it also comes across heavily as favouritism towards team members.

I've explained in detail the scenarios of the incidents that I was involved in and if consistency is put through all of them, then there is no way I would suffer any further than my fifth place finish.

Furi incident, Not my fault, pictures to follow and again the proximate cause of all else that follows (other than the next aspect)
Litchi's intentional attempts to slow me down unfairly (pics to follow)
My spin with Litchi 50/50 (with pics to follow)
My exiting the pits (accepted I crossed the yellow line, as did Mule, before I got collected - simple case of following the leader and having plenty of slow cars around track)
Incident with Matty (out of my control due to unloading and in previous races would be deemed as a racing incident).

It is ridiculous and laughable that I am the only person to get penalised. Completely unjustified.

Either penalise everybody, or penalise nobody.
 
In his defence, Drop has basically just said that penalties will be handed out consistently from either last week or next week depending on opinion. If you say 'do penalties from last week' like I just did, you're one step closer to getting the penalties across the board that you describe.
 
Well, imo, penalties should only be for blatantly dirty driving, of which, there was none to be found Saturday.

I suggested giving myself a penalty, and giving my point that I lost to Knelly or Matty, since a case could be made for both of them to finish 5th. However, apparently Knelly wants none of it. I still don't get why, but whatever. I guess he wants Litchi and Furi placed below him for some reason. Furi goofed up and made a mistake, but didn't do anything intentional. Wrecking himself should be penalty enough.

As for Litchi, I'll have to look at the replay again, but I never noticed anything dirty from him. He never seemed the type to drive dirty.

Yes, there should be a line somewhere, but it wasn't crossed, and the whole situation has been blown out of proportion. Calling favoritism is just silly.
 
From what I've seen and heard, for Litchi it wasn't dirty driving as such, it was more of a lack of oval racing ettitquete knowledge. No offence intended.
 
That could very well be the case. I don't know. I was only told to look at the accident, which I did.

He does have problems with holding his line, but he uses a DS3, so thats to be expected.
 
MÜLE_9242;7298499
That could very well be the case. I don't know. I was only told to look at the accident, which I did.

He does have problems with holding his line, but he uses a DS3, so thats to be expected.

~DS3 user puts hand up~
 
MÜLE_9242
That could very well be the case. I don't know. I was only told to look at the accident, which I did.

He does have problems with holding his line, but he uses a DS3, so thats to be expected.

I think the issue was he wanted Knelly to go past but didn't know that in order to signal & execute that he should pull completely off line and slow down to tuck in. He slowed down like he wanted to, in front of Knelly, which is what angered him.

So yeah, nothing to do with the guy's driving, just needs to be aware of little things like this.
 
Hey guys, just thought I'd check in and see what's going-WHOA!!!....

~quietly slips back out~
 
Stills between Furi and Myself before spin:

superspeedwaydaytona1j.jpg


This is the view from the back of the #18. Believe it or not the #11 is supposed to be following in a train with the two cars in front of it. This was literally just before the incident occurred, and the #11 had come up this high on a number of occasions. The #11 was also warned by the #42 on numerous occasions that if he kept going that high then the #42 was going to take his place. It can be seen that #11 is deep into lane 2 and encroaching on lane 3. Anybody who had 'demonstrated patience' lap after lap, and also provided numerous warnings, with the large gap in front of him would wait for the right time to close the gap to the #18.

superspeedwaydaytonam.jpg


Same photo different angle demonstrating that while the #11 is that high, the #42 has his nose as good as level the with tail of the #11.

Litchis' attempts to purposely slow me down are hard to demonstrate in stills as cannot prove the throttle control. However, this first photo is literally after we were both full throttle down the straight, and the #42 let off for less than half a second to let the #18 pass.

superspeedwaydaytona2nd.jpg


This second photo is taken a couple of seconds later (just after the Daytona sign), where Litchi swept down into my line immediately after I let him pass.

superspeedwaydaytona4q.jpg


It was right here that the #18 completely came off the gas, and then feathered for the first time at below half throttle for approximatley 3 seconds. How would any driver in this scenario expect that not to be deemed as 'come and push me'

The next two photos are the same from different angles. I had lightly touched the apron and was already as good as back in my position. #18 was still up high in the second lane, and was still to come down. This happens week after week at Daytona and is considered a racing incident. I am happy to accept 50/50 responsibility, but not 60%

superspeedwaydaytona6.jpg


superspeedwaydaytona5k.jpg


Again, I think my points on these incidents have been demonstrated as best I can.
 
Stills between Furi and Myself before spin:

superspeedwaydaytona1j.jpg


This is the view from the back of the #18. Believe it or not the #11 is supposed to be following in a train with the two cars in front of it. This was literally just before the incident occurred, and the #11 had come up this high on a number of occasions. The #11 was also warned by the #42 on numerous occasions that if he kept going that high then the #42 was going to take his place. It can be seen that #11 is deep into lane 2 and encroaching on lane 3. Anybody who had 'demonstrated patience' lap after lap, and also provided numerous warnings, with the large gap in front of him would wait for the right time to close the gap to the #18.

superspeedwaydaytonam.jpg


Same photo different angle demonstrating that while the #11 is that high, the #42 has his nose as good as level the with tail of the #11.

Yeah and that pic does not show 190mph either. Surely the fact I was wobbling about (I got loose about a second before those pics) should have been warning? Why stick your nose in when you've got a line behind you as well.It was with 39 to go, not 9 to go.
 
You are wrong again, and you are still not listening. As I mentioned at the start of the day, it's not about the points any more, it's the principal of how this has all been handled and the complete lack of consistency. Sorry to say this but it also comes across heavily as favouritism towards team members.

I've explained in detail the scenarios of the incidents that I was involved in and if consistency is put through all of them, then there is no way I would suffer any further than my fifth place finish.

Furi incident, Not my fault, pictures to follow and again the proximate cause of all else that follows (other than the next aspect)
Litchi's intentional attempts to slow me down unfairly (pics to follow)
My spin with Litchi 50/50 (with pics to follow)
My exiting the pits (accepted I crossed the yellow line, as did Mule, before I got collected - simple case of following the leader and having plenty of slow cars around track)
Incident with Matty (out of my control due to unloading and in previous races would be deemed as a racing incident).

It is ridiculous and laughable that I am the only person to get penalised. Completely unjustified.

Either penalise everybody, or penalise nobody.

You can not blame everything that happened in the last 23 laps of the race on the wreck between you and Furi on lap 77. You can't know for sure what would have or would not have happened had the wreck on lap 77 not happened. All we have to go on is what actually happened. And with everything that happened, there is more than enough blame to go around.

After the wreck on lap 77, Furi slowed down and waited for you in the trioval when most other drivers would have been glad to drive off and finish 3rd all on their own. Furi opted to drop back anyway, and he helped you catch back up to Litchi. Then, Furi and Litchi both helped push you all the way back to the lead pack. So, the wreck with Furi had no lasting effect on your race, as you were still in the lead pack with less than 5 laps to go. Saying these two guys single-handedly ruined your race is selective remembering, as these two guys also single-handedly rescued your race, when they had absolutely no obligation to do so.

Also, you were going to have to pit again either way, as you and Mule just didn't take enough fuel to finish the race on your last scheduled pit stop. Compare everyone's fuel after lap 70, and you can see who had enough and who didn't, especially if you know exactly how many liters of fuel are spent per lap. You just didn't have enough. Saying that you would have had enough fuel if you hadn't wrecked is a guess, and is still not "evidence" that a racing incident with one person can be blamed for you having to pit.

Your illegal exit from the pits, however, definitely caused you to be collected on lap 100, and directly caused the wreck that occurred with Matty, as you blamed the damage from that first accident for the later incident.

As for Litchi slowing you down, I'll be glad to penalize him. How much time did he actually set you back? 2, 3 seconds total? Let's totally overshoot it and call it 5 seconds lost. I'll penalize him 3x more than he cost you, so let's add 15 seconds to Litchi's final time (a points penalty is silly for a NW driver).

But, if we're going to penalize Litchi, we're going to penalize everyone for everything, right?

You and Litchi had a wreck that was caused by you driving down on the apron when there wasn't enough room to get safely under Litchi. That wreck is 50/50 at worst, so should I penalize both of you, or call it a racing incident?

Mule got a 1 point penalty for exiting the pits before the yellow line, right? Does it sound fair that you now get the same penalty for committing the exact same offense at the exact same time?

For the Matty incident, everyone that saw it has said that it looked intentional. Mule said it in PM (as did Tom and Matty, who both registered a PM complaint). Carb said it in the thread. I also thought it at least looked suspicious, but I was willing to take you at your word when you said it wasn't intentional in your PM. However, everyone that saw it said it looked like you steadily climbed the banking after the damage unloaded, driving directly in front of Matty the entire way in an attempt to block him. I would say that's worth at least the same 15 second penalty I applied to Litchi for slowing down another car. You definitely did a better job of slowing down Matty than Litchi did to you, right?

So, if we apply all earned penalties evenly, what actually changes? You and Litchi both get 15 second penalties for holding up another car's forward progress (when both of you swore via PM that it was completely innocent and unintentional), so that's a wash. Matty is going to pass you, just like before. Mule is going to lose a point, just like before. Furinkazen can lose a point for the lap 77 wreck, but he's not in the Chase, and it really wouldn't affect him much either way. But, you are going to get how many more penalties instead of a gifted point from Mule?

Is this how I should set the standings when I count the laps tonight?
 
It did have the effect of wearing out our tyres... but yeah I did wait up. As two together are gonna do more than 1. And I am pretty confident Knelly is not a 🤬 who would wreck someone on purpose, which proved right by the fact we worked together to catch up.

As for penalties, it does not affect me much, do as you wish. I came here to race, not for politics.
 
MÜLE_9242;7298473
Well, imo, penalties should only be for blatantly dirty driving, of which, there was none to be found Saturday.

I suggested giving myself a penalty, and giving my point that I lost to Knelly or Matty, since a case could be made for both of them to finish 5th. However, apparently Knelly wants none of it. I still don't get why, but whatever. I guess he wants Litchi and Furi placed below him for some reason. Furi goofed up and made a mistake, but didn't do anything intentional. Wrecking himself should be penalty enough.

As for Litchi, I'll have to look at the replay again, but I never noticed anything dirty from him. He never seemed the type to drive dirty.

Yes, there should be a line somewhere, but it wasn't crossed, and the whole situation has been blown out of proportion. Calling favoritism is just silly.

Seriously man, have you not read anything. I was happy enough with 5th place considering all the crap that came with Saturday night, even though I felt aggreived. I never made a fuss about it. I never complained or asked for anything to be reviewed and was happy enough to start getting ready for next week.

However, when you get penalised for something that was out of your control, as well as made out to be a filthy driver throughout the race in the summary, I'm not going to stand for that.

Simple point to be made is penalties or no penalties (Consistency). Bring them I gain, don't bring them, I maintain my 5th spot. Either way and I will let it lie, but I never pushed for others to be penalised until I was unfairly treated.
 
You're not being penalized! That's the thing. I am, no one else other than me was getting a penalty. So don't blame me if I don't know what you're moaning about.

Drop hits the nail on the head, too.
 
I've expressed my views to Drop including the idea called, 'Everybody shut the hell up and let the team owners decide on penalties with Drop' Let's stop this petty arguing.
 
You can not blame everything that happened in the last 23 laps of the race on the wreck between you and Furi on lap 77. I can and I will continue to see this as the proximate cause for what happened later in the race. You can't know for sure what would have or would not have happened had the wreck on lap 77 not happened. All we have to go on is what actually happened. And with everything that happened, there is more than enough blame to go around.

After the wreck on lap 77, Furi slowed down and waited for you in the trioval when most other drivers would have been glad to drive off and finish 3rd all on their own. Furi opted to drop back anyway, and he helped you catch back up to Litchi. Then, Furi and Litchi both helped push you all the way back to the lead pack. I don't deny any of this So, the wreck with Furi had no lasting effect on your race, as you were still in the lead pack with less than 5 laps to go. It had every effect on the remainder of the race due to having to burn more fuel than I had expected to Saying these two guys single-handedly ruined your race is selective remembering, as these two guys also single-handedly rescued your race, when they had absolutely no obligation to do so.

Also, you were going to have to pit again either way, as you and Mule just didn't take enough fuel to finish the race on your last scheduled pit stop. Compare everyone's fuel after lap 70, and you can see who had enough and who didn't, especially if you know exactly how many liters of fuel are spent per lap. You just didn't have enough. Saying that you would have had enough fuel if you hadn't wrecked is a guess, and is still not "evidence" that a racing incident with one person can be blamed for you having to pit. I know my fuel numbers and with what I had planned for the remainder of the race I had enough. I know how much you burn in pack, in draft and out front and therefore I knew I had enough

Your illegal exit from the pits, however, definitely caused you to be collected on lap 100, and directly caused the wreck that occurred with Matty, as you blamed the damage from that first accident for the later incident. I would never have been in the pits if not for the initial incident, yet accept I crossed the line in following Mule

As for Litchi slowing you down, I'll be glad to penalize him. How much time did he actually set you back? 2, 3 seconds total? Let's totally overshoot it and call it 5 seconds lost. I'll penalize him 3x more than he cost you, so let's add 15 seconds to Litchi's final time (a points penalty is silly for a NW driver). So for someone who intentionally (in my opinion) causes unsportsmanlike conduct should get a 15 second penalty? Lol.

But, if we're going to penalize Litchi, we're going to penalize everyone for everything, right?

You and Litchi had a wreck that was caused by you driving down on the apron when there wasn't enough room to get safely under Litchi. That wreck is 50/50 at worst, so should I penalize both of you, or call it a racing incident? Firstly, I never tried to get under Litchi and secondly I had already corrected slightly before Litchi came back down after weaving. Yes racing incident.

Mule got a 1 point penalty for exiting the pits before the yellow line, right? Does it sound fair that you now get the same penalty for committing the exact same offense at the exact same time? No, Mule got 1 point for the incident he caused, not for crossing the yellow line. That was my take on that.

For the Matty incident, everyone that saw it has said that it looked intentional. Mule said it in PM (as did Tom and Matty, who both registered a PM complaint). Carb said it in the thread. I also thought it at least looked suspicious, but I was willing to take you at your word when you said it wasn't intentional in your PM. However, everyone that saw it said it looked like you steadily climbed the banking after the damage unloaded, driving directly in front of Matty the entire way in an attempt to block him. I would say that's worth at least the same 15 second penalty I applied to Litchi for slowing down another car. You definitely did a better job of slowing down Matty than Litchi did to you, right? Well for everyone who believes I would be that calculated to intentionally block someone in such a circumstance, thank you. I have raced with you guys for a long time now, and have never intentionally been dirty. When I have made mistakes I hold my hands up. I never knew Matty was there, and was coming back from unloading anyway. Why on earth would I purposely ruin someone elses race.

So, if we apply all earned penalties evenly, what actually changes? You and Litchi both get 15 second penalties for holding up another car's forward progress (when both of you swore via PM that it was completely innocent and unintentional), so that's a wash. Matty is going to pass you, just like before. Mule is going to lose a point, just like before. Furinkazen can lose a point for the lap 77 wreck, but he's not in the Chase, and it really wouldn't affect him much either way. But, you are going to get how many more penalties instead of a gifted point from Mule?

Is this how I should set the standings when I count the laps tonight?

I never wanted any of this, hence not putting any complaints forward, as always. Do what the hell you like. I'm sick of all this crap. I was just trying to defend myself against an incident that I have been accused of causing, when I had no control over it. It's BS and I've put my points across. I know in myself I am 100% correct. If you all think I am that much of a vindictive person and driver then ..... well ....
 
There was no need to defend yourself in the first place when you were not going to be penalized at all.

That is the crucial point that you have completely missed, and brought the whole situation out of proportion with because of.
 
Finishing behind Matty in the amended race results as was suggested doesn't really penalise you since Matty would have passed you anyway if you hadn't have come into his path. So basically Mule's kinda right, there's no penalty for you here as far as I can see :confused:

EDIT: It's not even as bad for you as I originally thought actually as you'll get the same points as Matty due to Mule being penalised.
 
TomMcD
Finishing behind Matty in the amended race results as was suggested doesn't really penalise you since Matty would have passed you anyway if you hadn't have come into his path. So basically Mule's kinda right, there's no penalty for you here as far as I can see :confused:

Not really.

My suggestion was that any points lost by either of them get taken off my total and added back to them. I am the only one who loses anything.
 
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