GTP WRS-Online : Event 30 : Why has it Denso Long? - Apr 4

[WRP001]

We should have a host head over to mic-disabled "A" at least 15 minutes prior to quali... Drivers can start moving there over 15 minutes. That will avoid the issues we have when everyone tries to connect at once.

Maybe we instruct everyone who will enter within 10 minutes of the quali start to just go directly to "A" and we make sure a host is there by that time?

 

[Speedy6543]

Livestream going up in ~7 min.
www.twitch.tv/speedy6543

 

[Hydro]

3D3-A lobby is now open for the Eu race.
All drivers should enter 3D3-A lobby.

 

[NINE_HUNDRED]

Sorry for the start Tim, I was getting bumped all over and couldn't avoid you.

Pretty bad race for me, first 2 laps I kept going off on the last bend. Trying to catch up to Aspec but only passing him through earlier pits, then it just went on like that for most of the race.

Last few laps my tyres were gone and Al was just too quick to keep up with. Lap 29 I went off and Aspec then went past, though he would of caught me by the end anyway.

These faster cars aren't my strong suit.

Edit: Couldn't see Pekka, Jammy or Ren either, so if anything happened at the start then that's why.

-

After watching the replay - I'm braking fairly early into the hairpin, then I brake suddenly because I think Speedy and somebody else are sliding in front of me mid turn, which causes the guy behind me to hit me, I hit whoever was in front me, then I'm just trying to get control of the car and end up hitting Tim.

 

[Racingworld68]

check replay lap 1 ; There is a car flyin' on track.....(just before the last chicane)

 

[w-g-e]

My view on the start:
Christoph didn't have much room and he tapped Marc softly in the rear, which made Marc lose control. He ended up in the grass but could continue. Christoph lost speed because of this and Mike tapped him in the rear. Then Don tapped Mike in the rear and I think he paniced a bit and drove full throttle against Tim. Mike waited for Tim to get back on track so they could continue their race.
These are all racing incidents in my opinion.

Did you wheel broke there Ren? Sorry, I probably missed it in the chat.

 

[WRP001]

Sorry for the start Tim, I was getting bumped all over and couldn't avoid you.

No problem, that's what I saw on the replay.

My view on the start:
Christoph didn't have much room and he tapped Marc softly in the rear, which made Marc lose control. He ended up in the grass but could continue. Christoph lost speed because of this and Mike tapped him in the rear. Then Don tapped Mike in the rear and I think he paniced a bit and drove full throttle against Tim. Mike waited for Tim to get back on track so they could continue their race.

These are all racing incidents in my opinion.

I agree.

It was messy, but no single person at fault. Maybe a little less aggression from the entire field at the start would help, but unlikely to happen. Maybe we need to do single file starts when we have a nasty turn 1 like this... I'm not sure how even a staggered double file start would work. During all practice races we were fine, but we were never 12 on the grid and people aren't quite so willing to take without giving in a practice race.

I had a fun race regardless. Changed my strategy completely and short pitted. It was impossible to pass two guys battling pretty much even if your pace was 2 secs per lap faster so I ended up pitting after lap 6 and jumped through the field that way from 13th to 6th which is about all I deserved for a finish anyway. I made 2-3 mistakes on my own during the race as well.

Congratz on the win Wes. 👍

 

[WRP001]

Here are the EU results:

PM me your details (# pits, quali time) if you want them included in the table and they are missing. I'm not going to update this image until tonight, but I'll make the updates in one batch after the NA race.

 

[Hydro]

My view on the start:
Christoph didn't have much room and he tapped Marc softly in the rear, which made Marc lose control. He ended up in the grass but could continue. Christoph lost speed because of this and Mike tapped him in the rear. Then Don tapped Mike in the rear and I think he paniced a bit and drove full throttle against Tim. Mike waited for Tim to get back on track so they could continue their race.

These are all racing incidents in my opinion.

First of, congrats on the win Wes 👍
That was risky going 1 stop, but if you weren't held up by a few drivers (me included) it looks like you would have had quite a gap to second.
Great driving by Mohit to keep it close in the end as well. It was very close!

Nice racing you Chris and Mike (ren-tec). I had thought we would all be running down the final straight together but Chris was able to stay far enough ahead that catching him just wasn't going to happen.
Too bad I went for an 11 lap middle stint and you guys passed me as I spun a bit coming out of the last turn in T1 I really should have pitted.

The first 9 laps were awesome - minus turn 1, lap 1.

Regarding turn 1 - every turn 1 in every race:
Drivers that are behind any other car(s) are ultimately responsible for maintaining a safe, proper distance from the car(s) in front of them.
I don't agree that the entire incident can, or should be viewed as a 'racing incident'. By allowing that, it makes the incident 'OK' which it was not.

We will review the start, and come up with a way to prevent these incidents from occurring in the future.
Simply put guys - be more careful, brake earlier, and leave sufficient room.
Turn 1 incidents will not be tolerated in future events and we (admins) will let drivers know how we plan to deal with / prevent them in the upcoming events as soon as we have discussed a possible solution.

 

[w-g-e]

First of, congrats on the win Wes 👍
That was risky going 1 stop, but if you weren't held up by a few drivers (me included) it looks like you would have had quite a gap to second.
Great driving by Mohit to keep it close in the end as well. It was very close!

Nice racing you Chris and Mike (ren-tec). I had thought we would all be running down the final straight together but Chris was able to stay far enough ahead that catching him just wasn't going to happen.
Too bad I went for an 11 lap middle stint and you guys passed me as I spun a bit coming out of the last turn in T1 I really should have pitted.

The first 9 laps were awesome - minus turn 1, lap 1.

Regarding turn 1 - every turn 1 in every race:
Drivers that are behind any other car(s) are ultimately responsible for maintaining a safe, proper distance from the car(s) in front of them.
I don't agree that the entire incident can, or should be viewed as a 'racing incident'. By allowing that, it makes the incident 'OK' which it was not.

We will review the start, and come up with a way to prevent these incidents from occurring in the future.
Simply put guys - be more careful, brake earlier, and leave sufficient room.
Turn 1 incidents will not be tolerated in future events and we (admins) will let drivers know how we plan to deal with / prevent them in the upcoming events as soon as we have discussed a possible solution.

I only partially agree with that.
First of all, when do you see a F1 race completely without damage in the first turn?
It's pretty rare. They are professional drivers, and most of us aren't even close to that. Racing is also about judgement and trust in each other. One driver brakes 5 meters early and expects a turn to be taken at 100 km/h and one other brakes 15 meters early and takes it at 80 km/h, you can almost expect contact when racing that close. Real life says we should keep 2 seconds to the car in front, only then it's completely safe. You can not seriously restrict drivers to leave a gap of 2 seconds.

Even if I try not to, I have been quilty of making contact as well with other drivers. And people expect me to drive well, as 'I'm in D1'.
For this to work completely without contact, you'll have to set a corner speed limit of say 100 km/h, while not going any slower than 95 km/h. I can not think of any other possibility (without changing the starting type). And you'll also have to set a minimum and maximum range a driver is allowed to start braking.

Oh, and thanks for the comments. My first controller win.

 

[Racingworld68]

1 Stop Strategy Story

I managed a good and calm start and was able to stay out of the 'rumble'. I was around p9 with a few faster drivers behind me. Defending my line, Speedy had a hard time passing me. On lap 9 i made (imo) my only mistake and touched allibuba(sorry mate, was not intended) going in the hairpin. I let loose of the gas to give him the opportunity to get in front of me, when Speedy used a 'snake-move'👍 to pass both of us.

When everyone started pitting i ended up in third position. Keeping a steady pace, and giving a clear pass to faster drivers cathin' up on me. At the end of lap 15 i went in for fresh 'rubber'. (these tyres were only just half gone ) I came back out in last position, but knew that a steady pace and no mistakes would change all that in just a few laps...

No mistakes and back in 7th p. with 4 laps to go when i saw Tim and Speedy closing up on me. Tim passed quickly. But my race itself was just one straight to long, as Speedy passed me there with already 30 laps on the counter. Because of the mysterious 'Ren-tec Drop' I ended up in 8th position.

Very happy with my race overall, lots of fun, a nice Belgian battle:tup:, and one of my best results so far. Congratulations to Wes(even to fast with a controller) and all other drivers, really enjoyed this one...

 

[AspecBob]

I was having fun until my big mistake on lap 9 when I lost 2 positions (lost control at the exit of the last tunnel and ended up facing the wall on the right side and, as usual, it took me forever to get back on...) -- but then I eventually got over it and was having fun again eventually and for the rest of the race.

I did not have a definite pit strategy before the race and then decided after the race started I would go for three stops. But then -- forgot to pit on lap 8 so switched to a 2 stop strategy. But then -- had my big off on lap 9 , so decided to pit at the end of that lap. I stuck to my 2 stop strategy and pitted again on lap 19, so I did 9/10/11.

I was catching up to Al a couple of times, but one time Tim came out of the pits between us and pushed Al further away from me, I guess... One other time, I think I was too close and the dirty air made me lose control towards the beginning of T2 , and there were of course small mistakes here and there (e.g., at the hairpin) that made me lose ground a few times. Also, I was never in a position to benefit from someone's draft on the main straight

But it was fun mixing it up with Jammy, RacingWorld and NineHundred as my races are often quite lonely affairs. I did not finish last, for once, and was not lapped, so I was quite happy about that!

 

[Hydro]

I only partially agree with that.
First of all, when do you see a F1 race completely without damage in the first turn?
It's pretty rare. They are professional drivers, and most of us aren't even close to that. I wish you good luck to organise races completely without contact. Racing is also about judgement and trust in each other. One driver expects a turn to be taken at 100 km/h and one other takes it at 80 km/h, you can almost expect contact when racing that close. Real life says we should keep 2 seconds to the car in front, only then it's completely safe. You can not seriously restrict drivers to leave a gap of 2 seconds.

Even if I try not to, I have been quilty of making contact as well with other drivers. And people expect me to drive well, as 'I'm in D1'.
For this to work completely without contact, you'll have to set a corner speed limit of say 100 km/h, while not going any slower than 95 km/h. I can not think of any other possibility (without changing the starting type).

Oh, and thanks for the comments. My first controller win.

Set a corner speed limit? I han't even considered that , but it's not at all what I mean, as I can't see it as possible.

The big (huge) difference between our races and F1 (or any real) races is that our races are not deciding anyone's financial future. There are huge incentives for actual race drivers to finish as well as possible, and sometimes that leads to contact incidents that end races, and / or leave other drivers extremely upset with eachother.
They are however, professional drivers, and that sort of racing is to be expected from time to time. There's a lot on the line, and that alone will cause drivers to push harder than they probably should at times.

I don't want to come off as critically harsh of this particular start, but in the case of our series, drivers test, tune, practice, and prepare for a 90 minute event held once a week. Often that preparation involves a lot of time.
It's more than a little dissapointing when after all that effort, a driver finds himself at the back of the entire field 15 seconds into the actual race due to careless driving by others, and that is really the point I'd like to address.
I can't imagine an entirely incident free series, but I can imagine a field of cars getting through the first turn cleanly, and I don't think it's too much to ask.

 

[w-g-e]

I reviewed the replay again. I think you know it all starts with you (Marc) and Christoph. I see you braking until you hit 80 km/h. In the replay I can see Pekka, who was in front of you, hit a minimum speed of around 95 km/h. You're just being too careful I think, maybe Christoph still goes in a bit too hot but still. There was room for you to lift off sooner. I think you both had a part in the cause of this crash. You see how soon a mistake is made and that it can lead to a pretty big crash.

The reason I'm taking this so seriously is because I think it's completely fine the way it is run. I wouldn't want any changes in this aspect. I'm pretty sure you once said something in the lines of: 3D3 is all about having fun while racing. Did you have a fun race, or didn't you?

If there was careless driving by multiple drivers involved, then yes, I would completely agree with you. But there just wasn't. I will even go as far as saying that most of the crashes in 3D3 are caused by drivers who are trying to be too careful.

 

[Ren-Tec]

OK my story (warning may seem up my own A## lol), Start was ok and retained third but following wge and gooners destroyed my fronts. second stink Hydro did the under cut but I repassed him and pulled away a little (moved brake balance to the rear). Third stint the balance of the car was all over the place and Vagabond and Hydro were just it seemed in another league for pace (nothing changed other than a new set of Hards) and both easily faster and I had a mix of understeer over steer in more turns. Got to lap 28 and just thought Im not gonna get third so thought can't be bothered and rolled off and also it looked like the Denso was a clear winner to me
Vagabond sorry for the bumps side by side into turn one and in the high speed S's, Did you lift there or have a moment?


Anyway nice win wge 👍

ps: is it me or racing hards never seem to bite the track???

Did I mention I had 568bhp

 

[Allibubba99]

I had a very crappy start I spun my tires, but as it ended up I missed the mayhem because of it. I tucked my nose under someones bumper and squeezed through the middle just barely missing a sideways Tim. It appeared as though some of the drivers ahead of me tried to go through turn one 3 wide. I didn't have time to check out the replay yet, it is unfortunate that this keeps happening and in the past I certainly have caused contact. I have changed my aggression level in the starts as a result.

After turn one I had some clean track to race on. I had a couple of battles with Mike (Nine Hundred) but I suspected his tires were going away near lap 28 so I was able to take advantage. Also saw Speedy in my rear view! I don't see that too often! No worries Frank (racingworld), I should have been more patient with the throttle after you tapped me, it was recoverable. I just wanted to keep Speedy behind me! Other than that little off I only had one more and it was totally my fault. So as a whole I was very pleased with my performance.

Couple of times I saw Daniel (AspecBob) creeping up on me but just tried not to watch him and stick to my lines, it worked! I thought you were going to catch me, I read your post so I no longer wonder where you went!

Even with the occasional turn 1 incident this racing series is the cleanest and friendliest I have ever participated in! I guess that is why I keep coming back for more punishment! The field of drivers we have now keeps improving and I hope I am at least getting harder to pass! Someday with all of your continued assistance I hope to make my way on to a podium!

Thanks again 3D3 for providing a release from everyday life!

 

[Hydro]

I reviewed the replay again. I think you know it all starts with you (Marc) and Christoph. I see you braking until you hit 80 km/h. In the replay I can see Pekka, who was in front of you, hit a minimum speed of around 95 km/h. You're just being too careful I think, maybe Christoph still goes in a bit too hot but still. There was room for you to lift off sooner. You see how soon a mistake is made and that it can lead to a pretty big crash.

The reason I'm taking this so seriously is because I think it's completely fine the way it is run. I wouldn't want any changes in this aspect. I'm pretty sure you once said something in the lines of: 3D3 is all about having fun while racing. Did you have a fun race, or didn't you?

If there was careless driving by multiple drivers involved, then yes, I would completely agree with you. But there just wasn't.

It is entirely about having a fun, clean series Wes., and yes I did have fun in the race. Some others did not however, and their concerns need to be addressed as well.
I'm glad you are taking this seriously, as you and myself and a lot of others invest a lot of time in these races, so it's in all of our best interests to ensure that the series is as much fun as possible - all the time.

You seem to be thinking that a radical change may be involved that would actually impact the race, but that is not at all the idea.
In fact nothing in the race itself would change, that would only serve to penalize all the drivers.

We have had problems with turn 1 in too many races to ignore the issue though so it's something we will look into addressing as it really should just be the first turn, not the first incident.
You all know us well enough to know we are solution minded types above all else, and that's what's being considered - A solution. One that tries to ensure everyone has a fun race, every week 👍

 

[Ren-Tec]

Maybe rolling starts might make it a bit better for the race start Hydro but there is too many factors a start to consider a driver/s to get everything right. Cold tyres, starting at a place you never get to test a standing start from. braking points etc.

 

[w-g-e]

You seem to be thinking that a radical change may be involved that would actually impact the race, but that is not at all the idea.
In fact nothing in the race itself would change, that would only serve to penalize all the drivers.

I like this, but in this particular race, who would you penalize?
Like I said, to me it was a combination of you going to slow and Christoph going to fast. I wouldn't penalize either of you, that's why I don't understand why you think something needs to be changed. Based on other races maybe, but based on this race, definitely not.

We have had problems with turn 1 in too many races to ignore the issue though so it's something we will look into addressing as it really should just be the first turn, not the first incident.
You all know us well enough to know we are solution minded types above all else, and that's what's being considered - A solution. One that tries to ensure everyone has a fun race, every week 👍

But I don't think there is a solution for this. Compared to other series, this series is far ahead in terms of organisation and respect to other drivers. Almost everyone of us is an human being, and we all make mistakes. I think you think it's easy to get a 16 car grid to go through turn 1 cleanly, but I think it's not. Still, I think that the outcome of that turn 1 was pretty unlucky. The solution is, that someone has to take responsibiliy for a crash and wait for other drivers to return to the track. So they can have a fun race together. Which, in this case happened.👍
The ones saying that they didn't have a fun race, I think that's more down to themselves or the car, setup or track. Not this particular crash in turn 1.

 

[Hydro]

Maybe rolling starts might make it a bit better for the race start Hydro but there is too many factors a start to consider a driver/s to get everything right. Cold tyres, starting at a place you never get to test a standing start from. braking points etc.

We do rolling starts from time to time. Sometimes to change things up a bit, and sometimes for turn 1 safety.
It would have presented an interesting challenge today though as several drivers had invisiblity issues, and we were without mics.

I have a funny feeling though that drivers will be braking a bit earlier and being more cautious at the start of races in the future. 👍
That is really the way to go regardless of the start procedure. We can't remove the first turn from the game, we just need to deal with it better.

 

[Gravitron]

50/50 chance I'll make it by NA quali start-time, guys. Sorry, out of my control. I'll be in the lounge well before quali starts, but I just can't tell when I'll be able to sit down at the wheel. Happy to start in the rear, or just watch, if need be. Don't wait for me.

 

[Denilson]

I only partially agree with that.
First of all, when do you see a F1 race completely without damage in the first turn?
It's pretty rare. They are professional drivers, and most of us aren't even close to that. Racing is also about judgement and trust in each other. One driver brakes 5 meters early and expects a turn to be taken at 100 km/h and one other brakes 15 meters early and takes it at 80 km/h, you can almost expect contact when racing that close. Real life says we should keep 2 seconds to the car in front, only then it's completely safe. You can not seriously restrict drivers to leave a gap of 2 seconds.

Even if I try not to, I have been quilty of making contact as well with other drivers. And people expect me to drive well, as 'I'm in D1'.
For this to work completely without contact, you'll have to set a corner speed limit of say 100 km/h, while not going any slower than 95 km/h. I can not think of any other possibility (without changing the starting type). And you'll also have to set a minimum and maximum range a driver is allowed to start braking.

Oh, and thanks for the comments. My first controller win.

Sorry, but this is horse****!

* Proffesional drivers? In GT5, most of us who still play GT5 have to be concidered "proffessional" if you ask me. My guess is that we're doing many many more miles of virtual testing than any real life race driver does.
The comparison between real life and GT5 have to stop.
We ARE proffesional in what we do, namely to play GT5.

* Brake early? Yes, if the first, let's say 6 drivers in a pack, slow down a tad early to not hit the guy in front, the 7th driver should also, right?
There's nothing that's "expected" to happen in T1 in GT5 if you ask me.. Oh, the only thing that actually can be expected is a carnage.. sadly..
I always expect that, and guess what, I never cause T1 incidents nowadays.. It happened in the beginning, ofc.. and sometimes by an unforced error.. But ramming the guy ahead of me has never happened.
This is where the "proffessional" part comes in.. I'm not a proffessional real life race driver, but I'm putting my chin out and say that I'm a proffessional GT5 driver. And my guess and experiance from these WRS races si that most are.

* Speed limit? That's like begging for trouble.. What happened to "Just back off, keep your distance, stay out of trouble, do not recieve or give damage, clear lap 1.. then get on with racing when it's safer"?
Trying to push in T1 from a spot in the back of the grid is frowned upon if you ask me. There's no way a driver will succeed.. It have never happened, and never will.

limits in general:
By setting limits (speed, distance for braking etc), you're not seeing what racing is all about. Any situation is unique, and needs to be delt with in unique ways. There's no "set-standard" you can use to enforce/ensure a clean racing enviroment.


* Good cause in "D1"?
WRS divisions and good racecraft are not the same. I've encountered D1 drivers that can't race for ****!
And I know many D4-D5 drivers that are awesome on-line racers.

This is not a pun.. It's my opinions on the matter. T1 incidents is something that we in PURE have tryed to regulate for a long time.. And what it comes down to is to have drivers who's in control, keeps their heads cool, realize that the race is not won in T1 (it's the opposite), respect other drivers positions, and mainly, have an eye for worst case scenarios.. A pesimistic way of racing if you will.. The optimistic (naive) racer always cause T1 carnage..

 

[WRP001]

Got to lap 28 and just thought Im not gonna get third so thought can't be bothered and rolled off and also it looked like the Denso was a clear winner to me

This particular statement bothers me especially the part in bold.

So in any of our races if you can't get a podium you're going to pull over? I hope that's not what you're saying and I'm missing something.

 

[Hydro]

Guys, the turn 1 issue will be discussed amongst admins and if we feel a remedy is in the works we will let everyone know.
Obviously there are differing opinons regarding the possiblity of a clean turn 1, but I'm not willing to let a heated discussion distract this thread from the great races we have.

Please don't assume we are over reacting, nor that we don't take clean racing seriously.
All of the drivers in the series look forward to these events every week, and we are simply working to ensure they go off with as few hitches as possible.
It's what we do
All opinoins are apprecitated though, and I wouldn't discourage people form posting their thoughts, but for now no one has said anything other than 'we are looking for ways to improve turn 1 problems', and that we are considering options to improve the situation.

 

[Denilson]

All opinoins are apprecitated though, and I wouldn't discourage people form posting their thoughts, but for now no one has said anything other than 'we are looking for ways to improve turn 1 problems', and that we are considering options to improve the situation.

T1 incidents is something that we in PURE have tryed to regulate for a long time.. And what it comes down to is to have drivers who's in control, keeps their heads cool, realize that the race is not won in T1 (it's the opposite), respect other drivers positions, and mainly, have an eye for worst case scenarios.. A pesimistic way of racing if you will.. The optimistic (naive) racer always cause T1 carnage..

In other words, it's not much you can do in terms of rules and procedures to get rid of the T1 incidents.. Perhaps the rolling start with some more precize rulings.. But apart from that, it's a lot up to each driver.

👍

 

[Hydro]

In other words, it's not much you can do in terms of rules and procedures to get rid of the T1 incidents.. Perhaps the rolling start with some more precize rulings.. But apart from that, it's a lot up to each driver.

👍

In the end, and during the race, it's entirely up to the drivers Dennis, but that doesn't mean rules cannot be in place to help keep it clean should it be an ongoing problem.

 

[Denilson]

In the end, and during the race, it's entirely up to the drivers Dennis, but that doesn't mean rules cannot be in place to help keep it clean should it be an ongoing problem.

In other words, it's not much you can do in terms of rules and procedures to get rid of the T1 incidents.. Perhaps the rolling start with some more precize rulings.. But apart from that, it's a lot up to each driver.

👍

A rolling start, with a staggered type of launch..
The rule does'nt need to be more complicated than:
You can't go before the car in front of you do..
In this way, each car is launched with the time it takes for the behind driver to react, plus the extra speed the driver in front builds up in that period of time.

👍

 

[Hydro]

A rolling start, with a staggered type of launch..
The rule does'nt need to be more complicated than:
You can't go before the car in front of you do..
In this way, each car is launched with the time it takes for the behind driver to react, plus the extra speed the driver in front builds up in that period of time.

👍

We do starts like that. But sometimes (like today) drivers are invisible to eachother - making that type of start very tricky as we do not practice rolling starts as a regular weekly series would.
We also usually have mics enabled, but the grid size today required a mic-free lobby.

I have no doubt we can figure out something, but it won't happen tonight. We have another race in just over an hour.

 

[Hydro]

NA Race lobby is open for practice.

 

[Denilson]

We do starts like that. But sometimes (like today) drivers are invisible to eachother - making that type of start very tricky as we do not practice rolling starts as a regular weekly series would.
We also usually have mics enabled, but the grid size today required a mic-free lobby.

I have no doubt we can figure out something, but it won't happen tonight. We have another race in just over an hour.

I know it's not a bullet proof way to ensure a safe and clean T1.
But there's no such rule.
Apart from the various startprocedures you can implement, it's entirely up to each and every driver imo.

Good luck on the next race! 👍