GTPlanet ITCC Driver's Meetings (pre- and post-race)

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a minute. For anyone that is interested, please define "divebombing". I'm curious to see if there is a common definition of divebombing, because anyone that has every divebombed me, for the most part, never thought he was divebombing.
 
Johnnypenso
I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a minute. For anyone that is interested, please define "divebombing". I'm curious to see if there is a common definition of divebombing, because anyone that has every divebombed me, for the most part, never thought he was divebombing.

What is your definition then?
 
I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a minute. For anyone that is interested, please define "divebombing". I'm curious to see if there is a common definition of divebombing, because anyone that has every divebombed me, for the most part, never thought he was divebombing.

I've stated in the conduct guidelines and the second post of this thread, for clarification.


Granted, it was quite recently added, so, I understand why you didn't notice it. My fault. :ouch:


Otherwise, I'll copy and paste various sources, for different wordings:

Conduct Guidelines

Section 2.4:

- “Dive bombing” (passing purely by outbraking the opponent in front) will not be allowed.
- All drivers must be beside (front tires of driver passing ahead of rear tires of driver being passed.)



(This thread-second post, turn 5 explanation)

Please no dive bombing. Remember that your front tires must be in front of the rear tires of the driver that you're passing. NO EXCEPTIONS.
 
I've stated in the conduct guidelines and the second post of this thread, for clarification.


Granted, it was quite recently added, so, I understand why you didn't notice it. My fault. :ouch:


Otherwise, I'll copy and paste various sources, for different wordings:

Conduct Guidelines

Section 2.4:





(This thread-second post, turn 5 explanation)

The person who is dive-bombing makes contact with the car on the outside of them or the other car has to break his racing line to avoid contact. He does this by applying his brakes later than the car in front of him/her. This extra speed on corner entry causes this. Use good judgement when trying an out braking pass. Don't be from here to Jupiter from someone and try to pass them.
 
:ouch:


I need to explain in simple English again...

Negative Situation:

Driver A is behind Driver B.

Driver A tries to brake much later than Driver B.

Driver A crashes into Driver B.

Driver A gets reprimanded.

Positive Situation:

Driver A is beside Driver B.

Driver A tries to brake slightly later than Driver B.

Driver A passes Driver B.
 
:ouch:


I need to explain in simple English again...

Negative Situation:

Driver A is behind Driver B.

Driver A tries to brake much later than Driver B.

Driver A crashes into Driver B.

Driver A gets reprimanded.

Positive Situation:

Driver A is beside Driver B.

Driver A tries to brake slightly later than Driver B.

Driver A passes Driver B.

Yes that is simple. Enough said
 
The yellow BMW was lagging on my screen. He was from a country not America, Canada or a recognizable European country...

Sorry Polar, that was me...
But South Africa doesn't have the internet capabilities like the rest of the world ... :scared:
 
Essentially, it's when a driver behind late breaks to the inside line, and cannot hold the inside line, causing him to run wide, more than often into the side of the car he is trying to pass.
 
I've stated in the conduct guidelines and the second post of this thread, for clarification.

Granted, it was quite recently added, so, I understand why you didn't notice it. My fault. :ouch:

Otherwise, I'll copy and paste various sources, for different wordings:

Conduct Guidelines

Section 2.4:

(This thread-second post, turn 5 explanation)

The person who is dive-bombing makes contact with the car on the outside of them or the other car has to break his racing line to avoid contact. He does this by applying his brakes later than the car in front of him/her. This extra speed on corner entry causes this. Use good judgement when trying an out braking pass. Don't be from here to Jupiter from someone and try to pass them.

:ouch:

I need to explain in simple English again...

Negative Situation:

Driver A is behind Driver B.

Driver A tries to brake much later than Driver B.

Driver A crashes into Driver B.

Driver A gets reprimanded.

Positive Situation:

Driver A is beside Driver B.

Driver A tries to brake slightly later than Driver B.

Driver A passes Driver B.

Yes that is simple. Enough said

I was hoping for a few different definitions but we'll run with this. Remembering we have 16 different drivers interpreting these rules, here's what I see as some potential for confusion:

The person who is dive-bombing makes contact with the car on the outside of them So if I try to outbrake someone and we rub slightly, is that a divebomb? Define contact. What is excessive contact? It might be different between you and me.

Use good judgement when trying an out braking pass. What is good judgment? Define good judgment? After an incident don't most people say, "I thought I could pull it off, sorry". Don't most people think they use good judgment even when they don't? If I believe I used good judgment am I off the hook?

Don't be from here to Jupiter from someone and try to pass them. Where is Jupiter? Or more aptly, how far back is too far to attempt a braking pass? 50ft? 2 car lengths?

Driver A tries to brake much later than Driver B. Define "much later" How much later? 1/2 second? 3 car lengths? 4 car lengths? What if your definition as the lead car of "later" is different than mine? How do you review an incident when "later" is not defined?

Driver A crashes into Driver B Define "crashes into". If I try to outbrake you and tap you in the back bumper, unsettle you a bit but don't take the position is that ok? If I do it repeatedly is that ok? If I do get alongside under heavy braking entering the corner and rub the outside car just slightly, but don't unsettle them is that ok? What if I rub them and they move 2 feet outside? 3 feet? 5 feet? 10 feet? Is that ok?

You see what I'm getting at? These definitions leave everything to interpretation. It isn't clear what is a violation and what is not. Now let's look at the GTPLanet Racing Rules and see what they say, noting that there is no definition of "divebombing"

08: Corner Rights:


A:
When approaching the turn/apex of turn, the car which "holds" the inner side of turn has entrance-advantage and other driver(s) must refrain from endangering him by his actions.

B:
You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.
C:
If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to sufficient side room. The ahead driver must also leave sufficient side room for the behind driver. This means that each driver has a right to their respective "line", or side of the track, right up to the exit point. Neither driver should squeeze the other toward the inside or outside of the corner during the apex or exit.

D:
If an ahead driver has clearly made an error to warrant a passing move, a behind driver may attack their position, with due caution and care, regardless of whether there was any pre-existing overlap. However, the overtaking driver must still avoid contact. Small errors by the ahead driver may not justify a passing move. The ahead driver getting a bit out of shape at times doesn’t give you an automatic right to pass. You still have to judge if their error allows for a safe pass to take place.

E:
Drivers who are using PS2/PS3 controller MUST make additional effort in driving due to the fact they can't use side-view, and their perception of the other cars is thereby limited - extreme caution while maneuvering is required. If you are using a controller, you are required to set buttons up for side views as "I didn't see you." is not an excuse if you collide with another driver when racing.


So here we have a clear definition of when a passing driver is allowed to maintain his position beside another driver in corner entry and when he must back off. No overlap by turn in, you lose the right to maintain your position and must brake slightly and drop in behind the lead driver. If you get overlap, you have the right to the inside, but the other driver has the right to the outside and you can't run wide into them either. Both have to leave room for each other and respect their respective position on the track.

Most importantly, when stewards watch a replay, it's easy to determine where responsibility lies. You can freeze the replay at the point where the lead car is turning in if you want and look at the overlap of the cars in camera mode. If there isn't enough overlap or none, any contact becomes the responsibility of the following driver, regardless of how it happens. The lead car can move down to the apex of the corner and expect that it'll be clear of the following cars' nose, and if it is not, the following car is at fault, even though on the replay the lead car appears to have moved down into it.

Everything is clearly defined, no interpretation.

What this also does is leave it open for the RD and Stewards to make certain track specific designations such as, "The first two left hand corners at GVE are considered 1 corner. If you do not have overlap entering the first left hander, you cannot pass until the exit of the second corner, unless the ahead driver makes a significant driving error and you can safely make a pass. "

I've seen some people say they don't like the GTPlanet Rules but they are generally the ones doing all the rubbing and using other cars as guardrails and see these rules as making it more difficult to pass, which they do. At the same time, it dramatically increases everyone's enjoyment because you always know what they other guy is going to do. At Tsukuba this is especially true, as you have three hard braking corners and two short straights and it's tough to pass. But at least you know, if everyone is following the rules, that entering the first corner for example, if someone shoots from 50 ft back in trying to pass you, and forces you outside onto the marbles, there's no interpretation of the event. It's a clear violation.

The Rules also provide for contact concessions. What you do if cause an incident. You are expected to pull aside and let that driver you hit, pass you, regardless of how many positions it costs you. This will make most guys think twice about making risky, braking, divebomb passes.
 
Last edited:
Driver A tries to brake much later than Driver B. Define "much later" How much later? 1/2 second? 3 car lengths? 4 car lengths? What if your definition as the lead car of "later" is different than mine? How do you review an incident when "later" is not defined?

It depends on the corner very specifically, the drivers lines and their speed.

But everything you've posted here is right, it's all about the overlap and the 'right' to your line.
 
It depends on the corner very specifically, the drivers lines and their speed.

But everything you've posted here is right, it's all about the overlap and the 'right' to your line.

Again, define, "drivers lines and their speed." There is no universal definition for a "driver's line" or "speed" one can come up with to cover all situations. Everyone's interpretation of whether their line and speed are correct will be different and there's no way stewards can wade through all the myriad of possibilities efficiently. Best to fall back on a universal definition so we all have common ground on which to race.💡
 
I was wondering if we could have a clearer definition on legitimate blocking please.

I know of the one movement rule, but what about distance? Say a 10m distance may be good enough if the cars are relatively close in speed, but then what about a huge difference in speed? An example would be like just after seth overtook diddy Lap 5 race 2 at the kink, diddy had terrible speed coming out of the corner, so I caught up on him like a shot.
 
A lot of the blocking problems are really judgement calls. Some are more obvious than others. It is hard to define blocking. There is a big grey zone with defensive driving/blocking. I say any move to defend a position that results in contact that was not inevitable before the defending move is blocking(and also douchebaggery). I am not calling anyone out here, just trying to clarify what I as a steward believe blocking is. Any move on a strait that moves another driver off of his line is blocking. This is just my view. Like I said there is a grey zone.
 
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=184984&highlight=GTPlanet+rules

How's this?:

10: Defensive Driving:

A:
Leading cars have the right to choose their own line down a straight. They can change their racing line once while driving down a straight (Move from the outside line to the inside, or vice versa). As they approach the next corner, they can return to the racing line of their choice However, they're not allowed to change their line when the behind driver is directly behind and changes his line to try and make a pass. If your [ahead driver] movement causes an accident, you're responsible.
B:
Leading cars have the right to take their line of choice through corners. I.e. they may drive a defensive line around the inside of a corner to protect their position, thereby forcing an attacking driver to try to pass around the outside. This is not blocking and is part of normal racing etiquette. In fact, apart from the restrictions of rule 10:A, a leading driver can drive any line which they feel is the most inconvenient for any following car to try to pass them.

Don't see any grey areas there...
 
Last edited:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=184984&highlight=GTPlanet+rules

How's this?:

10: Defensive Driving:

A:
Leading cars have the right to choose their own line down a straight. They can change their racing line once while driving down a straight (Move from the outside line to the inside, or vice versa). As they approach the next corner, they can return to the racing line of their choice However, they're not allowed to change their line when the behind driver is directly behind and changes his line to try and make a pass. If your [ahead driver] movement causes an accident, you're responsible.
B:
Leading cars have the right to take their line of choice through corners. I.e. they may drive a defensive line around the inside of a corner to protect their position, thereby forcing an attacking driver to try to pass around the outside. This is not blocking and is part of normal racing etiquette. In fact, apart from the restrictions of rule 10:A, a leading driver can drive any line which they feel is the most inconvenient for any following car to try to pass them.

Don't see any grey areas there...

Like damu said. There are a lot of variables on distance behind and speed difference. That rule is picture perfect for a normal racing battle; however, I know that not every racing battle is normal. This rule is the basis in which I make my judgement calls on.
 
Okay, we are using that sort of an idea against blocking.


You may move once to block, and you must leave 1.2 car widths of room, if the driver is beside you, to avoid a crash. You must not block twice on the same straightaway. Entering the braking zone, you may try to return to your line, but you may be outbraked if you use the normal racing line.


And, I'm using a rule we used in my karting career, to control divebombing:


In order to overtake under braking, the following driver must have his front tires in front of the rear tires of the driver that the following driver is passing. If this is not established, the following driver is recommended to brake early, and resume the normal racing line, until the pass setup is possible.
 
It won't matter, guys. I'm going to sweep every round even with 200kg of success ballast! J/K- I try to place my car where you'll have to follow me through a turn. That's how you block legally. Make it hard for the following car by taking up the whole track unless he is beside you. It's what I call the Michael Schumacher. Preseason was fun, some guys are faster through turns, some guys are faster on the straight. Give the passing driver the go ahead, most the time he outbreaks himself. Over under move.
 
It won't matter, guys. I'm going to sweep every round even with 200kg of success ballast! J/K- I try to place my car where you'll have to follow me through a turn. That's how you block legally. Make it hard for the following car by taking up the whole track unless he is beside you. It's what I call the Michael Schumacher. Preseason was fun, some guys are faster through turns, some guys are faster on the straight. Give the passing driver the go ahead, most the time he outbreaks himself. Over under move.

I did the over under a few times on Saturday.:sly:
 
+1 for the signature, cnd01! :D :lol:

Ummm, otherwise, if someone's about to divebomb you, you don't have to take it. You should just give them space, and race them as cleanly as you can, in terms of defending/getting your position.
 
Coming online now to test Moto Chicane. Sorry to those in Europe time zones, I understand that; you don't have to come to this, but, it might be a circuit preview to those who can come.
 
Okay, we are using that sort of an idea against blocking.


You may move once to block, and you must leave 1.2 car widths of room, if the driver is beside you, to avoid a crash. You must not block twice on the same straightaway. Entering the braking zone, you may try to return to your line, but you may be outbraked if you use the normal racing line.


And, I'm using a rule we used in my karting career, to control divebombing:


In order to overtake under braking, the following driver must have his front tires in front of the rear tires of the driver that the following driver is passing. If this is not established, the following driver is recommended to brake early, and resume the normal racing line, until the pass setup is possible.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the a$$ but here's the potential issues I see:

In order to overtake under braking, the following driver must have his front tires in front of the rear tires of the driver that the following driver is passing.

Why not just adopt the GTPlanet standard of being up to the drivers' door? In fact, if you want to change it go the other way, and make it that front bumpers have to be parallel at the turn in point. If you make it the front/rear tire overlap, it's such a small overlap that it can be debatable depending on whose perspective you have whether there is sufficient overlap and who has to give way. Also you didn't define at what point the overlap must occur. Is it when braking begins? Is it when braking ends? Is it the turn in point? Is it the apex? This is all clearly defined under the GTPlanet Rules of Racing.

Also, there's no need to define "overtaking under braking". Passing into a corner and the responsibilities of each driver are clearly defined under GTPlanet rules.

the following driver is recommended to brake early, and resume the normal racing line, until the pass setup is possible

What does recommended mean? What does early mean? Again, under GTPlanet rules it's clearly defined that when there isn't sufficient overlap the following car must give way to the lead car to take the racing line. Why introduce things that aren't clearly defined.

You may move once to block, and you must leave 1.2 car widths of room, if the driver is beside you, to avoid a crash. You must not block twice on the same straightaway. Entering the braking zone, you may try to return to your line, but you may be outbraked if you use the normal racing line

The GTPlanet version of blocking is much clearer, and clearly states the the lead driver cannot move to block when the other car is gaining on him and close enough that the block may cause an accident, and if it does it's his fault. This variation is completely unnecessary.

Guys, we don't need to reinvent the wheel here. GTPlanet Rules are well written, well thought out, and quite clear. Every series I've ever been in that follows them tends to be very clean, so long as they are enforced. When you try to make all kinds of little variations on the rules, with unclear definitions, that when things fall apart.
 
It is a touring car series after all , there will be some contact! It's Inevitable. don't you watch DTM?

I think that people are being very whiney, what mr melancholy said is good enough for a touring car class!
 
It is a touring car series after all , there will be some contact! It's Inevitable. don't you watch DTM?

I think that people are being very whiney, what mr melancholy said is good enough for a touring car class!

Professional racing has spotters and much better mirrors than we do. Because of the limited peripheral vision in GT5 you need a stricter set of rules in overtaking. No one wants to tune and practice for an hour or two getting ready for an event, only to be taken out in the second lap because the rules for overtaking aren't clearly understood or are ignored, but so poorly written, nothing is enforcable. We all want to have good, clean, competitive racing, and the way to do that is through clear, concise guidelines all participants can understand and follow. Clear rules are easier to enforce as well, so repeat offenders can either learn from their mistakes or be tossed from a series when they display a blatant disregard for the enjoyment of others.

If you just want to crash and bash your way through a race, much like you did in the 6 lapper (the replay doesn't lie), then open lobbies are the place for that, where no one cares about anyone but themselves. If you want to race in an organized series, then clearly defined rules are the way to go for everyone's benefit, and in my opinion, the GTPlanet Rules are the best around for this job. They aren't perfect, but they do provide for good racing.
 
Battles for 11th are just as fun as the battles for first, looking forward to some good races lads. The little testing I was in tonight was fun, can't wait for more!
 
So, I'd like to thank cnd01 & FRAG-ME-CG for a great, clean testing session at Tsukuba. It went great.

We're running the MotoGP chicane!


Also, we're also running the GTPlanet OLRs. I did create a separate rules book, but we'll be using both. The ITCC Conduct Guidelines builds on all the ideas covered in the OLRs. However, the rules in the ITCC Conduct Guidelines are made specific to the series, where the OLRs are vague.


What I mean, is that the ITCC Conduct Guidelines (CGs) are used to specify the manner in which accidents are investigated by stewards, and the way that penalties may be implemented. So, in terms of the rule books, both will be used, but, I'll be using a different rule for divebombing, because it's the rule I use.


I mean, I've never had a problem with divebombing either way; whether it was with the GTPlanet OLRs or my karting career, where we used the "front tires in front of rear tires before braking zone" rule.
 
MrMelancholy15
So, I'd like to thank cnd01 & FRAG-ME-CG for a great, clean testing session at Tsukuba. It went great.

We're running the MotoGP chicane!

Also, we're also running the GTPlanet OLRs. I did create a separate rules book, but we'll be using both. The ITCC Conduct Guidelines builds on all the ideas covered in the OLRs. However, the rules in the ITCC Conduct Guidelines are made specific to the series, where the OLRs are vague.

What I mean, is that the ITCC Conduct Guidelines (CGs) are used to specify the manner in which accidents are investigated by stewards, and the way that penalties may be implemented. So, in terms of the rule books, both will be used, but, I'll be using a different rule for divebombing, because it's the rule I use.

YAY MOTOGP CHICANE! I've never raced. That before! So much for my 57 ;(
 
YAY MOTOGP CHICANE! I've never raced. That before! So much for my 57 ;(

That^^ was scary. But, in the end, the Team of Stewards did agree, considering you said "YAY MOTOGP CHICANE!" and cnd01 said "the chicane's fun." :D :lol: I like simplicity.
 
Good clean practice race MrM and Frag:). MrM could you update the track description in the first post. I would like for you to add a precaution in the last turn. When your tires are old/worn out and you are battling for position, the driver on the outside usually gets tapped out on corner exit.
 
I mean, I've never had a problem with divebombing either way; whether it was with the GTPlanet OLRs or my karting career, where we used the "front tires in front of rear tires before braking zone" rule.

I've never raced the chicane either, should be interesting. So if I understand that correctly it means that you have to have overlap before you touch the brakes otherwise you have to accede the racing line of their choice to the ahead driver?
 
Last edited:
Back