Guns

  • Thread starter Talentless
  • 5,167 comments
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Which position on firearms is closest to your own?

  • I support complete illegality of civilian ownership

    Votes: 120 15.5%
  • I support strict control.

    Votes: 244 31.5%
  • I support moderate control.

    Votes: 164 21.2%
  • I support loose control.

    Votes: 81 10.5%
  • I oppose control.

    Votes: 139 17.9%
  • I am undecided.

    Votes: 27 3.5%

  • Total voters
    775
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except for .50BMG rifles that can shoot a mile. .458 Winchester mag is OK"

Didn't you guys read the constitution?
Well, according to the gun control lobby, .223 is a high power caliber that should be used only in the hands of military. Amazing thing is, they get retired General, or police chief to state that. Talk about 2.2 Camry..... Can you imagine former race car driver coming out to say that 2.2 should be banned on the streets, because nobody needs that much horsepower?
In all seriousness has a .50BMG rifle ever been used in a murder/public shooting/assassination in the US? I guess we have a new low hanging fruit after assault weapons became passé.
I didn't even touch on that, because: 1) Caliber was irrelevant to the argument he was making. 2) Barrett is the least of the safety concerns in this country. I was being funny earlier, but seriously, if people want to stay safe, ban alcohol...... but noooo, we like alcohol, we just don't like guns. One is much more dangerous & lethal in American society than the other. No contest.
 
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In all seriousness has a .50BMG rifle ever been used in a murder/public shooting/assassination in the US? I guess we have a new low hanging fruit after assault weapons became passé.

People tend to not spend >$12,000 to buy a 13 kgs rifle to go on a shooting spree. And if I had to absolutely, positively kill someone from a distance, I wouldn't use a .50BMG - I'd go for a rifle chambered in the most common rifle calibre on the market.

.50BMG rifles are just humongous (and quite deadly) toys. I wonder how many US civilian-owned fifty-cals have been shot more than a couple of times.
 
I think Noob was just making a point, but I'm sure anybody who'd know little bit about firearms would agree how impractical they would be on the streets, let alone skill required to hit targets several hundred yards away(a mile? not going there. lol).
 
Yeah that's kinda what I meant, it's pretty bizzare to me that a massive, impractical, and ludicrously expensive rifle is where we draw the line.

Nobody thinks twice about people having a hundred year old Lee-Enfield or Mosin-Nagant, or even a modern .338 or something. Those are affordable rifles with plentiful ammo that are very powerful and have very long range. Yet we have laws in California banning the gun equivalent of a Bugatti Veyron.
 
Whether you think more guns are safer or not doesn't change the fact that crazy is unpredictable and no amount of banning will stop them, as seen in Oklahoma City and the Boston Marathon. Those were home goods that anyone can find and learn how to turn into a bomb.
You're stuck addressing the issue of the "bad guy" when I'm really talking about the "good guy". I'm also not really talking about levels of gun control, as it's purely a technicality amid the topic. But I think I need to accept that the want to be able to say "Sigh... that's all been covered over and over, yada, yada.", or some other pre-packaged response, is all too powerful for most of you guys to look past your preconceptions.

Sad though, since I'm very interested in the concept of natural human rights, and as an extension, the right to tools to protect life. As someone who's always found myself neither right nor left, libertarianism has me intrigued, but I recognise it as pretty much an "all in" proposal. So I prod it and poke it.
 
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Americans love to kill things,
I was going to argue this point as being hyperbolic and not understanding the gun debate, but then I noticed where you lived and realized that it holds true there.

Nor does it state in the constitution that the regular every day citizen can own a gun.
It says a well regulated militia. We have that, it is called the National Guard. So why would a non National Guard citizen require to own a AK47, or any similar rifle?
Oh, I get to whip this out again. I love it.

Definition of Militia
Merriam Webster Dictionary
1
a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency

b : a body of citizens organized for military service

2
: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service
Yep, 1 looks just like the National Guard. But there is 2 to contend with. See, when the Constitution was written there was no such thing as a National Guard. So, did they mean that? Doesn't seem likely. But see, there was a militia, which had played a fairly large role in the Revolution. That militia was made up of all able-bodied men and their guns. In fact, the Revolution began when British soldiers were ordered to claim the guns and supplies. The colonists got word of this and moved the weapons. In Concord is where the able-bodied men, aka militia, had gathered at a moment's notice, earning them the title Minutemen, and fought off the British. These were not trained military men who had defected from the British Army, like George Washington. These were everyday citizens.

Which do you think was meant when the Constitution was written? A government-controlled unit that will enforce the will of the leaders or the people who would stand up to those trained soldiers in an act of defiance when necessary?


EDIT

I wonder how many US civilian-owned fifty-cals have been shot more than a couple of times.
We do it annually in Kentucky.


Sad though, since I'm very interested in the concept of natural human rights, and as an extension, the right to tools to protect life.
Is it hard to connect right to life to the right to protect that right?
 
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Is it hard to connect right to life to the right to protect that right?

Not at all, that's why I'm doing just that. Zip up your fly, your preconception's still showing.

I feel sorry for people that merely want to live harmonious lives within what they feel (or are) their rights, only to have others interrupt the harmony. Unfortunately, in some situations it leaves otherwise harmonious people constantly at the ready for a fight. It can also leave them looking for a fight where there's no fight to be had.

Considering where I'm coming from, you're creating a fight where there need not be one. I've been humble enough to allow for the notion that maybe you're indeed right (on rights), but I still get the same old jibes thrown back at me. And that's you, a very informed and considered man. No wonder that the gun reform debate is in a such a state when the loudest voices are from much lesser men.

How about you don't shoot the defectors as their walking from there to here? No matter how slow the gait.
 
Unfortunately, in some situations it leaves otherwise harmonious people constantly at the ready for a fight. It can also leave them looking for a fight where there's no fight to be had.
I don't believe I can agree with that. It sounds like you're saying it's the guns that cause people to be (more) aggressive, and I can't agree with that at all. By the same token someone with ready access to a baseball bat would be more aggressive. Or knives, or anything else that can be used as a weapon.

Can you explain why you feel that way? Something you've read somewhere, some experience you've had?
 
Not at all, that's why I'm doing just that. Zip up your fly, your preconception's still showing.

I feel sorry for people that merely want to live harmonious lives within what they feel (or are) their rights, only to have others interrupt the harmony. Unfortunately, in some situations it leaves otherwise harmonious people constantly at the ready for a fight. It can also leave them looking for a fight where there's no fight to be had.

Considering where I'm coming from, you're creating a fight where there need not be one. I've been humble enough to allow for the notion that maybe you're indeed right (on rights), but I still get the same old jibes thrown back at me. And that's you, a very informed and considered man. No wonder that the gun reform debate is in a such a state when the loudest voices are from much lesser men.

How about you don't shoot the defectors as their walking from there to here? No matter how slow the gait.
I'm not trying to create a fight. You said you were interested in the concept of natural human rights and, by extension, the right to tools to protect them. Are you looking for a discussion about it or just stating your desire to discuss and leaving it out there?

What I stated would be the Libertarian view on that concept you say you are interested in. It isn't a hard concept, and is stated bluntly. Considering how many jokes I get about my long posts I would think short and to the point would be appreciated.
 
Maybe Australia would be safer with more guns in the hands of good people, but regardless, I don't believe it's a universal or timeless principle.
We're already very safe. If the laws governing gun ownership were relaxed, I'd question just how much safer the country would become because of it - not in the sense that the country would become unsafe because of it, but because I don't think there is much room for improvement to begin with. I live in Sydney, and while there are some suburbs that I will stay out of, they would be rough suburbs with or without guns. Every city has them. I have never genuinely felt unsafe in the city, even when I was teaching at some of the toughest schools outside the Greater West (but I have never taught in Greater Western Sydney, where the toughest schools are).
 
People tend to not spend >$12,000 to buy a 13 kgs rifle to go on a shooting spree. And if I had to absolutely, positively kill someone from a distance, I wouldn't use a .50BMG - I'd go for a rifle chambered in the most common rifle calibre on the market.

.50BMG rifles are just humongous (and quite deadly) toys. I wonder how many US civilian-owned fifty-cals have been shot more than a couple of times.
One of the guys at the sportsman's club near owns two... He was hit by a drunk driver and will never work again, so he had some money to spend...

On the militia part.... Aside from a national militia, states have the right to form their own too. And anyone can form a militia, although it may not be recognized by the US gov't..
 
Why does anybody need a weapon like that?

As much as I frown upon gun ownership, I can at least understand the argument that people want something close at hand to protect themselves, their families and/or their property. But to my mind, that can be achieved with a simple handgun or something like a rifle. Similarly, I can understand that hunting is a popular and legitimate pastime, even if it's not something that I would have any interest in. But as in the case of personal defence, I can only see a limited range of weapons being necessary.

But then there is the availability of some pretty serious heavy-duty weaponry - like that .50 rifle. What possible need does a civilian have for something like that? What practical application do they have outside the military and law enforcement? To my mind, they're unnecessary, and considering the devastation that they can cause, they should be illegal. But if the government tries to take them away, people claim that their rights are being violated. I don't think a total gun ban is practical, so if there is some provision for some ownership, I don't see how rights are being violated.

In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook massacre, Obama pointed to Australia and our response to the Port Arthur shootings - that we took one look at it and said "yeah, that's never happening again", then put legislation in place. And do you know what? It hasn't happened since. Gun ownership is possible, but tightly regulated. The people feel safe, and nobody has protested that their rights are being trampled on. We don't have massacres or spree shootings, and we don't have police shooting civilians on a regular basis - and I'm not just talking about Michael Brown; there are entire Wikipedia articles dedicated to recording the number of people shot by police month-by-month.

Every time the gun debate comes up, the focus is on rights. But do you what nobody talks about? The need to exercise those rights responsibly. You have a right to free speech, and if you so wish, you can shout "fire!" in a crowded theatre. But you have the responsibility to recognise that doing so will likely trigger a stampede that could result in deaths and injuries - deaths and injuries that you will be held accountable for. So maybe what America needs is a Bill of Responsibilities. These discussions of rights tend to focus on my rights; that the government can't take away my right to free speech, or my right to bear arms. There's never any talk of your rights. Maybe that's the difference between Australians and Americans. Prior to Port Arthur, we had a right - maybe not a constitutional one, but a right nonetheless - to gun ownership. In the aftermath, we chose to restrict that right. So while Americans exercise their rights to fulfil their needs, Australians choose not to exercise their rights to fulfil the needs of others.

Because I don't know about you, but if my neighbour feels the need to own a weapon that could literally rip me in half just to feel safe, I start to wonder if he trusts me. And that makes me wonder if I trust him.
 
Whether they need it or not shouldn't factor in to whether they can have it.
Yes, it should. It absolutely should. No civilian has any need of high-powered weapons. Therefore, they should not be available. Sure, you have the right to bear arms - but given the track record of violent crimes, massacres and spree shootings, I would say that right has been exercised about as poorly as it could have been, and I would like to believe that if you had knowledge of how that right would play out today when the Second Amendment was being considered, you would have had the good sense not to enact it.

Sure, I shouldn't generalise. But enough people have proven that they can't be trusted with those weapons that nobody should have access to them in the first place.
 
In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook massacre, Obama pointed to Australia and our response to the Port Arthur shootings - that we took one look at it and said "yeah, that's never happening again", then put legislation in place. And do you know what? It hasn't happened since.
I have this rock that keeps away tigers...
 
I have this rock that keeps away tigers...
And we had a tragedy that disturbed our national consciousness so much that we were willing to change, and bipartisan support that recognised the need for that change.

Look at an event like Sandy Hook at face value. It's horrifying. It never should have been able to happen, and yet it was not the first time and, unfortunately, it's unlikely to be the last. The only sensible answer to this is to completely remove the possibility of it happening. But what is truly terrifying is the way FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!! won.
 
And we had a tragedy that disturbed our national consciousness so much that we were willing to change, and bipartisan support that recognised the need for that change.

Look at an event like Sandy Hook at face value. It's horrifying. It never should have been able to happen, and yet it was not the first time and, unfortunately, it's unlikely to be the last. The only sensible answer to this is to completely remove the possibility of it happening. But what is truly terrifying is the way FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!! won.
Not really. Had everyone followed the letter of the law (ignoring the bit about murdering children, natch), Sandy Hook wouldn't have happened. Turns out that not everyone follows the letter of the law - only the law-abiding do.

Laws don't stop things that are against that law from happening and you can't cite their non-happening as evidence that the law works - any more than I can claim that because I've not seen any tigers since I've had this rock, the rock keeps tigers away.
 
You're stuck addressing the issue of the "bad guy" when I'm really talking about the "good guy". I'm also not really talking about levels of gun control, as it's purely a technicality amid the topic. But I think I need to accept that the want to be able to say "Sigh... that's all been covered over and over, yada, yada.", or some other pre-packaged response, is all too powerful for most of you guys to look past your preconceptions.

Sad though, since I'm very interested in the concept of natural human rights, and as an extension, the right to tools to protect life. As someone who's always found myself neither right nor left, libertariansim has me intrigued, but I recognise it as pretty much an "all in" proposal. So I prod it and poke it.

What's to question?
You have rights.
Does gun ownership (in your opinion) fall into your rights?
If so then there is no question as to what purpose a gun has, if not then the same applies.

You sound like someone very opposed to gun ownership who pretends to be open to the idea and has no valid reason to oppose ownership (outside of criminal or mental faults).

Why are you so active in this thread?
Either you do or don't understand the idea of a right to bear arms. If you do then just say what your position is, if you don't then just admit to not understanding the concept. It's not hard.
With as much as you post in this thread claiming ignorance is almost impossible, so why pretend you are intrigued instead of just sticking to your guns (figuratively). :lol:

The right to own a firearm isn't an issue to me, just as abortion isn't an issue. In the United States of America both are legal.

/issue

If you want to argue that I suggest the supreme court (for either issue).
 
Laws don't stop things that are against that law from happening and you can't cite their non-happening as evidence that the law works - any more than I can claim that because I've not seen any tigers since I've had this rock, the rock keeps tigers away.
I have two questions:

1) What do you think our government did after Port Arthur? Passed a law saying "all guns are bad"?

2) How do you explain the way those laws had the intended effect if the laws played no part in bringing about those effects? Do you think a wizard did it?
 
I have two questions:

1) What do you think our government did after Port Arthur? Passed a law saying "all guns are bad"?
No idea - I don't really care. Ours passed several laws completely banning the possession and sale of handguns after a couple of high profile spree killings - as in completely banning their existence in the country - with a gun amnesty for previously legal and law-abiding owners. Since Port Arthur was very soon after Dunblane in the UK (I recall something about the killer being inspired by the extensive media coverage given to Thomas Hamilton), I'd imagine it would have been something along the same lines.

Oddly, despite handguns being utterly banned in the UK, people still get them and use them to shoot other people. It turns out that criminals don't actually care about the criminal nature of owning weapons.
2) How do you explain the way those laws had the intended effect if the laws played no part in bringing about those effects? Do you think a wizard did it?
How do you explain the way my rock has the intended effect if the rock plays no part in bringing about those effects? Do you think a wizard did it?

The rock - and the gun laws (whatever they are) - are what's known as a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy. You have an effect that you ascribe to a cause that merely predates it, while not being necessarily the cause of that particular effect.


We've had three spree shooting massacres in the UK - Hungerford in 1987, Dunblane in 1996 and Cumbria in 2010 - with wide-ranging outlawing of types of weaponry after each of the first two (we didn't bother after the 12 deaths in Cumbria - wonder why). The question isn't how effective the gun laws after these events have been at preventing repeats (clue: they haven't*), but why the lack of gun laws before them didn't result in more of them. Once you see that the lack of gun laws didn't create an environment that allowed for shooting sprees, you'll to question the assumption that enacting gun laws diminishes it.


*And, curiously, the Office of National Statistics hasn't issued a homicide-by-firearm statistic for any full year since 1997.
 
*And, curiously, the Office of National Statistics hasn't issued a homicide-by-firearm statistic for any full year since 1997.

Interesting.
Would the info be available via the freedom of information act?
 
Interesting.
Would the info be available via the freedom of information act?
I... don't know.

It is possible to extrapolate instances where a firearm was used to shoot and kill someone other than the holder from ONS data - it's about 40 - it's just a bit unclear. There's also the minefield of reported vs recorded crime (that which people report to the police and that which is recorded as having occurred) and the fact that the ONS changed in 2011 to record data from April-April rather than January-January. You also need to determine exactly what "homicide" is and what a "firearm homicide" is - homicide is just "the killing of a human" and includes suicide (which is triple the rate), accidental killings, police killings and justified killings, while firearm homicide can include a firearms offence that involves a homicide but not through the normal operation of the firearm...

Getting down to just "the deliberate use of a gun to kill a human who is not the holder of it", the data for each year is interesting though:

1995 - 26
1996 - 25 (includes 17 killed by Thomas Hamilton)
1997 - 28 (year of handgun ban)
1998 - 10
1999 - 23
2000 - 29
2001 - 31
2002 - 33
2003 - 18
2004 - 18
2005 - 20
2006 - 43
2007 - 31
2008 - 27
2009 - 20
2010 - 28 (includes 12 killed by Derrick Bird, and 1 by Raoul Moat)
2011 - 31

Even offset against population increase, it's been pretty steady at a rate of 0.5/million across my entire lifetime - the figures show around 30 for 1977 - and there's been just about zero change in the use of handguns as a murder weapon in the same period. Given that, you'd have to accept that the outlawing of handguns has had no effect on the ability of criminals to use handguns to kill people - so the fact that there hasn't been another spree-killing like Thomas Hamilton's merely becomes the fact that there hasn't been one yet.
 
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