Guns

[ExigeEvan]

Here's a new discussion topic: 3D printers.

Recently a man printed his own AR15 lower receiver at home. In the eyes of the law this is the part that is considered the firearm because it has the serial number.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/579913_3D_printed_lower___yes__it_works_.html

There is also another project called the Wiki Weapon Project that aims to have an open-source 3D part file for free access around the internet.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/08/23/wiki-weapon-project-aims-to-create-a-gun-anyone-can-3d-print-at-home/

As time progresses and home manufacturing matures, 3D printers should be able to build more and more components to a firearm.

This begs the question, if governments are unable to control firearms as a good, how can they expect to control them as information?

While 3D printers will make it easier, they don't change anything.

Manufacturing using a 3D printer is simply faster than doing it by hand (though, in some cases it can produce single-piece objects that couldn't be made any other way). If you really wanted to make a gun you could using hand tools, people still do it all around the world.

Having read up on this news story previous, the biggest issue didn't appear to be the legality, but the 3D printer manufacturer having a crisis of morales.

 

[sumbrownkid]

It's a damn clever idea though.

 

[Zenith]

Yes, technically I've been able to forge the materials myself for some time now. It's just been an extremely difficult thing to do. 3D printing is a big leap forward for home fabrication. I think it's much more realistic for someone who wants a firearm to invest in a 3D printer than a CNC machine or similar.

Yes producing your own firearm is not (and should not) be illegal. Selling the firearm or manufacturing for the purpose of sales requires a license.

I think in the next 10 years we'll be seeing some legislation passed that will be hopelessly ineffective.

 

[Callum B]

Well frankly I'm glad I live here, means I have less to worry about passing a group of chavs. That being said I've been shot at with a firework but that's beside the point

 

[ExigeEvan]

Well frankly I'm glad I live here, means I have less to worry about passing a group of chavs. That being said I've been shot at with a firework but that's beside the point

Really? Because if they've got a knife, what have you got? Tin of beans? Pint of milk?

 

[Zenith]

Well frankly I'm glad I live here, means I have less to worry about passing a group of chavs. That being said I've been shot at with a firework but that's beside the point

You're more likely to be assaulted, robbed, raped, or the victim of some other violent crime than I am.

Even more so if you compare yourself to someone like Danoff who carries a concealed weapon.

Hey, at least you feel safe...

 

[Callum B]

You're more likely to be assaulted, robbed, raped, or the victim of some other violent crime than I am.

Even more so if you compare yourself to someone like Danoff who carries a concealed weapon.

Hey, at least you feel safe...

Really? Maybe I'm just lucky then, but I'm pretty sure a sharp bit of copper travelling at around 450m/s would do more damage than a couple inches of steel?

 

[Dennisch]

If either of them hit any vital parts it doesn't matter.

 

[Callum B]

Fair point, always thought the U.S.A was a more dangerous place to live than England though.

 

[Zenith]

Personally I don't care if it's a death ray or an old loaf of bread, I want to be safe. I do not believe that the government can guarantee my safety without severely infringing upon my human rights and liberties.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Fair point, always thought the U.S.A was a more dangerous place to live than England though.

It is if you're a gang member. Tends to skew the statistics a tad.

 

[Zenith]

Yes I should point out that my statement was based on overall statistics. You can get more in depth, but I don't have much to go on over the Internet.

 

[Callum B]

Personally I don't care if it's a death ray or an old loaf of bread, I want to be safe. I do not believe that the government can guarantee my safety without severely infringing upon my human rights and liberties.

We can never really stop it, it's human nature to kill each other unfortunately. Although that shouldn't be used as an excuse.

 

[cphbullet]

We can never really stop it, it's human nature to kill each other unfortunately. Although that shouldn't be used as an excuse.

Why not? I'm killing right now...

..time that is

They really do need to allow printed firearms in the uk though:tup:

 

[Zenith]

We can never really stop it, it's human nature to kill each other unfortunately. Although that shouldn't be used as an excuse.

An excuse for what? Private ownership of firearms? The ability to defend one's life, property, and family? Explore hobbies?

I guess that's a difference in culture. You guys need reasons to be allowed own things, we need reasons not to.

 

[ScouserInExile]

You're more likely to be assaulted, robbed, raped, or the victim of some other violent crime than I am.

Even more so if you compare yourself to someone like Danoff who carries a concealed weapon.

Hey, at least you feel safe...

You're in the US, right? The rates of violent crime are nearly four times higher in the US than the UK.

And yes, I am aware that those stats are skewed by gang related violence, but the the UK stats are equally skewed by gangsta wannabe type. And if you don't fall into that category, then the kind of violent crime you are likely to be victim to means that owning a gun is going to be no use unless you carry it with you at all times.

 

[Northstar]

You're in the US, right? The rates of violent crime are nearly four times higher in the US than the UK.

If you are using the stats supplied by the UN, those stats are skewed because Puerto Rico is included, which has a rather high homicide rate.

Violent crime has also been on a decline, in fact, it's almost at a record low.


I've never felt threatened walking down the road at midnight, which I do quite often as I work late nights.

 

[ScouserInExile]

If you are using the stats supplied by the UN, those stats are skewed because Puerto Rico is included, which has a rather high homicide rate.

Violent crime has also been on a decline, in fact, it's almost at a record low.


I've never felt threatened walking down the road at midnight, which I do quite often as I work late nights.

Funnily enough, me neither.

I only mentioned crime figures because it was implied that violent crime rates are higher in the US than the UK. Crime rates and gun ownership have very little in common, despite both sides of the gun control argument trotting them out at every opportunity. The only things that actually affect crime rates in developed nations are poverty, lack of access to education and lack of social mobility.

 

[cphbullet]

Funnily enough, me neither.

I only mentioned crime figures because it was implied that violent crime rates are higher in the US than the UK. Crime rates and gun ownership have very little in common, despite both sides of the gun control argument trotting them out at every opportunity. The only things that actually affect crime rates in developed nations are poverty, lack of access to education and lack of social mobility.

👍 the only thing i'd disagree with this is that i wouldn't say 'lack of access to education' its more like lack of forced education, most of the people i know who would be likely to commit a crime are in that situation because they weren't forced to attend school, not because they didn't have the chance.
Just to clarify by 'social mobility' do you mean essentially the fact i didn't attend oxford or cambridge i couldn't make it into the PM's job?

 

[ScouserInExile]

👍 the only thing i'd disagree with this is that i wouldn't say 'lack of access to education' its more like lack of forced education, most of the people i know who would be likely to commit a crime are in that situation because they weren't forced to attend school, not because they didn't have the chance.

But that level of people who fail to attend school when given the opportunity will remain constant and the crime they commit will remain constant. It's when you deprive a population of the opportunity to be educated that crime rockets. There is no alternative for them from day one, effectively.

Just to clarify by 'social mobility' do you mean essentially the fact i didn't attend oxford or cambridge i couldn't make it into the PM's job?

At the extremes, yeah. But the more usual example is where certain ethnic groups are not afforded the same rights and opportunities as others around them.

Think black south Africans under apartheid as your textbook example.

 

[Endless-Wilso]

Sorry wrong thread

 

[Schwartz]

Piers Morgan's show said there was something like 100k gun shops

http://[domain blocked due to malware]/instances/400x/25997987.jpg

There are 129,817 federally licensed firearm dealers in the US (Source), 61,562 of which are collectors, just 50,438 being retailers (Source).

and only 40k grocery stores in the US.

There are 36,569 supermarkets in the US (Source). Also note that the number of supermarkets + the number of other grocery stores add up to give you a total number of grocery stores in the United States, so anyone who uses the aforementioned statistic to describe all grocery stores is incorrect.

Also, take in to account that many of these supermarkets also have a license to deal in firearms. So there are not really 50,000 gun shops. However, there are many shops whose primary purpose is not to sell guns even though they have a license to do so.

Shops that deal exclusively in firearms aren't likely going to acquire a license to sell a carton of eggs to your mother. However, other stores will acquire a license to sell firearms. So naturally, you'll have more licenses to deal in firearms than you will supermarkets.

TL;DR: Are there a lot of stores that sell or are allowed to sell guns? Yes. But more gun shops than supermarkets? No.

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

One thing i'd like to ask all the people who believe that banning guns will stop this is:

If banning guns doesn't stop mass murders, where would you go next?

Maybe?

 

[Bc4]

But if nobody has guns how will they defend themselves incase the government goes crazy??

 

[Sam48]

But if nobody has guns how will they defend themselves incase the government goes crazy??

This.

The founding fathers gave us the second amendment in order to give the people the power to defend themselves if/when their government overextends their power.

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://[domain blocked due to malware]/instances/400x/25997987.jpg

There are 129,817 federally licensed firearm dealers in the US (Source), 61,562 of which are collectors, just 50,438 being retailers (Source).

There are 36,569 supermarkets in the US (Source). Also note that the number of supermarkets + the number of other grocery stores add up to give you a total number of grocery stores in the United States, so anyone who uses the aforementioned statistic to describe all grocery stores is incorrect.

Also, take in to account that many of these supermarkets also have license to deal in firearms. So there are not really 50,000 gun shops, but there are many shops who's primary purpose is not to sell guns, but they have a license to do so.

Shops that deal exclusively in firearms aren't going to acquire a license to sell a carton of eggs to your mother. However, other stores will acquire a license to sell firearms. So naturally, you'll have more licenses to deal in firearms than you will supermarkets.

TL;DR: Are there a lot of stores that sell or are allowed to sell guns? Yes. But more gun shops than supermarkets? No.

No offense, but saying you have a licensed gun dealer for every 2,500 people in America and that you can buy a gun where you buy your lettuce and your Cheerios, probably isn't the best response to Mr. Morgan's assertion.

 

[Zenith]

His stated that Morgan inflated the amount of gun stores by including collectors (not gun stores) and deflated the amount of good vendors by only counting super markets as places to buy food. He was entirely correct and his figures prove that Morgan was outright lying.

Collectors are hardly gun salesmen. The number you're looking for is 1 store that sells firearms for every 6,000 people in America (300,000,000/50,000). Either number is perfectly reasonable especially when you consider how many Walmarts and Dick's Sporting Goods there are.

What is wrong with having many small businesses that sell a product? What is wrong with a business offering a wide variety of products?

 

[Schwartz]

No offense, but saying you have a licensed gun dealer for every 2,500 people in America and that you can buy a gun where you buy your lettuce and your Cheerios, probably isn't the best response to Mr. Morgan's assertion.

It is, assuming that's what Piers Morgan actually said (I haven't looked it up). 100,000 gun shops to 40,000 grocery stores is simply not true and very misleading.

 

[priesty_lfc]

This.

The founding fathers gave us the second amendment in order to give the people the power to defend themselves if/when their government overextends their power.

Why would you even think that would happen?

Yes it does/has in a third world country but America?

In this day and age I find that highly unlikely and a pretty poor excuse for guns to be aloud.

Back in the 1600's or whenever these amendments were made you could justify it, in this day and age not so much imo

 

[II-zOoLoGy-II]

Why would you even think that would happen?

Yes it does/has in a third world country but America?

In this day and age I find that highly unlikely and a pretty poor excuse for guns to be aloud.

Back in the 1600's or whenever these amendments were made you could justify it, in this day and age not so much imo

Wow. Just wow.