Guns

  • Thread starter Talentless
  • 5,167 comments
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Which position on firearms is closest to your own?

  • I support complete illegality of civilian ownership

    Votes: 120 15.5%
  • I support strict control.

    Votes: 244 31.5%
  • I support moderate control.

    Votes: 164 21.2%
  • I support loose control.

    Votes: 81 10.5%
  • I oppose control.

    Votes: 139 17.9%
  • I am undecided.

    Votes: 27 3.5%

  • Total voters
    775
You are right, which makes your questioning of someone saying it wouldn't have prevented the Sandy Hook massacre even more crazy. As you just pointed out, because it was already there.
And as I have also pointed out - which you have apparently overlooked - there are loopholes in the current laws. You only have to undergo a background check if you are purchasing a gun from a store. You do not have to undergo one through a private sale or a purchase at a gun show, unless there is an existing state law in force. The proposed legislation was intended to make a uniform system across every state for every sale.

Yes, that was all it simply did. I didn't read the text of it to know it adds health privacy exemptions or directs the attorney general to keep a list of all approved guns. It is just simply a "broadening."
Perhaps the problem is in the wording of the legislation. Because I fail to see how you can allow someone who is mentally unstable and potentially dangerous to purchase a weapon and still call your society more free because of it. There are certain mental disorders that manifest in violent tendencies, and while they might be rare, allowing those few individuals to purchase a weapon only enables them.

As for the Attorney General possessing a list of every approved gun, don't you think it would be a good idea for someone to know where all of the guns are? If, for instance, one is stolen and used in a violent crime, the authorities would be able to track the weapon back to its owner, and establish when and where it was stolen. This would enable them to apprehend a violent criminal faster.

And this broadening, of course, creates a pain in the ass for people who look to buy a gun off a friend in a quick impulse buy while visiting, or while at a gun show, or receiving it as an inheritance.
The words "impulse buy" should never be used to describe the sale of a weapon.

We have the worlds largest yard sale (127 Yard Sale) go near my house. Churches and community centers rent out spots on their land to hundreds of vendors as a fund raiser. Some of those vendors are selling guns, and some working antiques or replicas. How the hell is he supposed to run background checks from the middle of a field?
One assumes that there would be a system in place to facilitate it. The customer would pay a bond to the vendor, as a sort of security deposit. Then vendor would then have to run the background check, and would be entitled to keep the downpayment should the customer fail the check. If the customer passes, they then pay the remaining amount, and receive the gun - even if it has to be sent to them.

As for people who receive guns through an inheritance, a will is a legally-binding document, and so it would not be difficult for a provision to be included where a background check is carried out on the intended receipient before the will is read.

Didn't I say if? Yes, yes I did. Quit taking words out of my mouth.
The fact that you said "if" leads me to believe that it is a genuine concern of yours, however remote you think the chances of it happening are.

You asked why they are trying to buy a gun. I gave you a reason. If the store is too expensive, the check can't be completed in time, etc, etc. they have a number of legitimate reasons to not want the check.
No check, no gun. That's the way it works. If the store is too expensive and/or the sale cannot be completed in time, one assumes that the customer would be able to opt out before completing any stage of the transaction.

Find some new overly predictable material. You aren't getting anywhere with that.
The fact that you're so quick to dismiss it demonstrates that you're in no position to judge it.

By the way, do you think that violent video games should be heavily regulated, or even banned in the off chance they do create violent sociopaths?
They are. That's what the ratings system is for. It's intended to keep violent games from impressionable children. Minors need to be accompanied by an adult when purchasing any game with a particular rating, and the burden of responsibility falls to parents to ensure that their children play games with appropriate content.

Now, get off the graves. It's disrespectful.
I'm sorry, but that is disrespectful. You don't like my argument, so you pick at one of the details and claim it's exploitative, and try and use that to undermine my entire argument, as if you're trying to shame me into silence. But that in itself is exploitative, and therefore disrespectful.

You want to know what I hear when I read your posts? This:

"My right to own a gun is more important than the rights of ten people to live free from the threat of violence. And even if, by giving up my own right to own a gun, I could better protect the rights of those ten people, I wouldn't do it, because my fear of enabling some vague and baseless threat to take form is more justified than the grief that any victim of gun violence has ever experienced."

You put great emphasis on the Second Amendment. Perhaps, though, you should consider Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person."

If, by giving up your right to bear arms, you could better guarnatee the right to life, liberty and the security of person, then it is a price worth paying a hundred times over.
 
If, by giving up your right to bear arms, you could better guarnatee the right to life, liberty and the security of person, then it is a price worth paying a hundred times over.

In what fantasy world would I be better able to protect myself, my wife, and my son by giving up my own right to own a firearm? The guy breaking into my house (a criminal, by definition) will not be so noble. If he has a gun (likely) and I don't (what a great idea!), I will have to wait for police to arrive to protect us. More likely, the police will be arriving to transport my family to the hospital or the morgue, because they were way too late for protection.



Yeah, no thanks.

Criminals will always have guns, no matter what you try to do to prevent it. The best way to prevent violent crime is to have a deterrent. Cowards will always pick on the weak, because it is the path of least resistance.
 
In what fantasy world would I be better able to protect myself, my wife, and my son by giving up my own right to own a firearm?

Welcome to Europe.

Sorry, I had to. The joke of you Americans thinking you're sitting ducks in your own homes without a gun never gets old to me.
 
If I had faith in goverment to be reasonable, logical and manage things efficiently, I probably wouldn't have a problem with universal background checks that exclude the people most likely to commit a crime or harm others with a gun. But like almost everything else they get their hands on, what starts out as a match turns into an inferno before you know it.

Committed robbery a few years ago? No gun for you.

Two years later. You had an assault charge dropped five years ago? Sorry no gun for you.

Four years later. Marijuana possession conviction 10 years ago? No gun for you.

Six years from now. You jaywalked in 1974? Sorry, you're not responsible enough to carry a gun.
 
Welcome to Europe.

Sorry, I had to. The joke of you Americans thinking you're sitting ducks in your own homes without a gun never gets old to me.

Because people who want guns to threaten you with, will get guns regardless of their legality. Disallowing the law-abiding population an item that criminals will get anyway is hardly fair.
 
Sorry, I had to. The joke of you Americans thinking you're sitting ducks in your own homes without a gun never gets old to me.
I'm from Japan, where gun control works beautifully. Believe me when I say that you don't know what you are talking about.

No, it's not a war zone on the American streets. Neighborhood I reside in, I'll never likely need a gun to defend myself(likely). But unlike where you may reside in Europe, there are guns everywhere here. Assault & robbery involving firearms takes place in my town ALL DAY LONG.
 
Afterward, Mr. Obama criticized the outcome and accused the nation's gun lobby of "spreading untruths" that the measure would lead to "some sort of Big Brother gun registry."

Didn't they come out and say that the legislation would not be effective without some sort of registration? If that ever happened, how could we trust our governments not to release the information like they did with carry permit holders in New York? Then it would become a road map for criminals who want to get guns.

No offense, but I do not understand why these people feel my rights should be further restricted because somebody else committed a crime.


Bram Turismo
Sorry, I had to. The joke of you Americans thinking you're sitting ducks in your own homes without a gun never gets old to me.

OK. If you don't like guns, don't own one.
 
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You do realise that when you buy a gun, you are already subject to a background check, right? The proposed legislation simply sought to broaden the coverage of those background checks, to make them mandatory for sales where no previous background check was needed..

Ever been to a gun show here? There might be 5 private citizens walking around trying to sell one of their own guns in a sea of thousands of people. Everything else is sold by dealers and has to follow the usual rules. Surveys of criminals in jail have shown that a statistically insignificant portion of those criminals bought a gun this way. Pretending this would do anything, let alone stop a Newtown is naïve at best.

That's nothing more than paranoid rhetoric. When has your government ever made a serious effort to take your guns from you? And why do you seem to think that this is just the first step in a greater plan to do exactly that?

That's good. Step 1: Demonize the opposition and make them out to be a bunch of paranoid crazies.

It's the first step because people like Bloomberg, Cuomo, and Feinstein have literally said that it's the first step. When are we allowed to be mad and push back without being called paranoid? I'd much prefer stopping all of this dead in it's tracks than allowing for the incremental legislation that is slowly eroding our freedoms.

Try telling that to the families of anyone who ever lost someone to a mass shooting.

Gladly. It is very sad that they lost loved ones but 300,000,000+ other people shouldn't be giving up freedoms and privacy from government because 26 people were killed by 1 psycho. The guns didn't kill anyone. The mentally unstable guy who stole the gun from a legal gun owner did.

This is an attitude that I've seen from a lot of gun advocates: that your right to own a gun is more important than someone else's right not to be afraid that one statistical anomaly will take their life; and that your fear that the government is somehow conspiring to take your guns from you is more genuine than the grief the families of victims feel. It's appallingly selfish.

Good. People should spend more time worrying about their own lives and their own rights. I don't give a damn about all of the internet groupthink and fake trendy compassion floating around on social media. I care about me. Being constantly afraid of a statistically improbable event taking your life sounds an awful lot like the paranoid irrational thinking that you keep accusing us of having. I'll save you the time of saying it. I'm a cruel, uncaring bastard.

Obama and his people have not once given a good explanation of how any of their proposed laws were supposed to save lives. That is because the legislation wouldn't have made a difference. It wouldn't have prevented future shootings, and it wouldn't have prevented the day to day killings in every city. Hell, I would have had a lot more respect and actually believed that they were sincere if they had at least been looking to ban handguns. It was never about saving lives though. They made up statistics that have been debunked time and time again while parading around the families of the deceased for their own gains.

They didn't legislate to help improve mental health in the country. Instead they just wanted to make sure the government had a record of it in a database somewhere.

The states that have already managed to pass stricter gun control (my home state of Maryland being one of them) didn't focus on raising the minimum penalties for crimes committed with firearms. They didn't try to make sure that the career criminals and repeat offenders who use stolen weapons to kill people would stay off the streets. No, instead they made sure to make it a crime if a legal gun owner doesn't report a stolen gun quickly enough. They passed a law so that would-be gun owners need to get a license (after giving up their finger prints like a criminal) to purchase a firearm. A license to exercise a RIGHT enumerated in the Constitution? It is only to inconvenience and discourage law-abiding citizens. It is only to continue to demonize good people and a behavior that is deeply rooted in the tradition of this country. Criminals will continue to buy guns on the black market. The government is supposed to pursue and prosecute criminals who lie on their forms trying to purchase firearms through legal shops. It doesn't though.

But you're right. Expanded background checks at the price of our privacy was totally going to solve the problem.
 
narcissism-scores.jpg
That's interesting, given that the vast majority of people who are interested in running others' lives are not from my generation but from ones before it. My parents' generation, the baby boomers in particular. They've had over 40 years to stop messing up and they haven't managed it. Meanwhile, kids like myself are more the most defiant of authority since our parents were hippies, except that we aren't hopped up on drugs in public thinking LSD will cure all our problems.

Or maybe that paragraph right there illustrated the point exactly.
 
Try telling that to the families of anyone who ever lost someone to a mass shooting.

And why should they be involved with the legislative process in the first place that I would need to do that? They're the absolute last person who should be involved with sweeping legislation in response to an incident; regardless of if the people drafting it want to put their faces all over it so it passes. Should we throw out the current punishment system entirely and base everything around what the victim's of a crime think should be done?


"Someone keyed my car yesterday, and I'm so pissed off about it that I'd like his car taken away; and the car of everyone who lives near me as well. But that's okay, because I'm the victim here." And I await the similar "you're a horrible person" stuff that David is.


This is an attitude that I've seen from a lot of gun advocates: that your right to own a gun is more important than someone else's right not to be afraid that one statistical anomaly will take their life; and that your fear that the government is somehow conspiring to take your guns from you is more genuine than the grief the families of victims feel. It's appallingly selfish.

Considerably less appallingly selfish than Obama's method of parading around the victims of a tragedy like Maude Flanders so he can steamroll over dissenting opinions and win support for his personal cause purely by the sympathy vote. Also considerably less appallingly selfish than the gun control advocates involved pretending how much they actually care about the families' grief beyond how well they can use it to their advantage.


Can Republicans get in on this action, and start parading around victims of shootings and mass murders to use their grief to have concealed carry be made compulsory for all legal citizens also for the purposes of preventing future disasters? Or is preying on sympathies in such a way a strictly Democrat-only affair?


I'm sorry, but that is disrespectful. You don't like my argument, so you pick at one of the details and claim it's exploitative, and try and use that to undermine my entire argument, as if you're trying to shame me into silence. But that in itself is exploitative, and therefore disrespectful.

It's not "one of the details." It's the entire foundation of your argument. "They don't sympathize with the victims of mass shootings and have the gall to explain why they shouldn't over their own rights? Well, then they obviously don't care about the right to life of others and just want their guns above all else. How selfish of them." Let's change it to another topic, like alcohol. "They don't sympathize with the victims of drunk drivers and have the gall to explain why they shouldn't over their own rights? Well, then they obviously don't care about the right to life of others and just want their booze above all else. How selfish of them."


How is that not exploitative? You might as well be saying "if you are against gun control you are in support of mass shootings."
 
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People tend to substitute in emotion when their argument lacks logic and facts. This has been demonstrated in the recent gun control campaigns and some recent arguments here...
 
And as I have also pointed out - which you have apparently overlooked - there are loopholes in the current laws. You only have to undergo a background check if you are purchasing a gun from a store. You do not have to undergo one through a private sale or a purchase at a gun show, unless there is an existing state law in force.
Which one of those loopholes did Adam Lanza use to get his guns? Which closed loophole would have prevented this?

Are you aware that there were early reports that he tried to buy a gun, was denied for multiple reasons, and still found a way to do this?

If anything, Newtown is an example of how laws like this do very little to prevent those who are determined. It's a crazy notion, I know, but criminals don't obey laws, so new laws rarely affect them.


The proposed legislation was intended to make a uniform system across every state for every sale.
Failing uniformly. Good idea.

Perhaps the problem is in the wording of the legislation.
Have you actually read it to know, or do you just trust the word of Barack (I killed 11 children last week) Obama?

Because I fail to see how you can allow someone who is mentally unstable and potentially dangerous to purchase a weapon and still call your society more free because of it. There are certain mental disorders that manifest in violent tendencies, and while they might be rare, allowing those few individuals to purchase a weapon only enables them.
This requires exemption from health privacy laws (HIPPA) how? The current background check system just checks a list of names of former violent fugitives. Why not just add the names of patients reported to be a possible danger to themselves or others, which is already an allowed activity? Why open your entire medical record to this system?

I take HIPPA seriously as both a patient and an employee in public health. I have had to sit through HIPPA training, I have had to fill out multiple forms giving medical decision authority to specific individuals in my life, and have seen just how important this is. Health privacy is a huge fracking deal and it, in no way, needs or should be sacrificed at the alter of false security.

As for the Attorney General possessing a list of every approved gun, don't you think it would be a good idea for someone to know where all of the guns are? If, for instance, one is stolen and used in a violent crime, the authorities would be able to track the weapon back to its owner, and establish when and where it was stolen. This would enable them to apprehend a violent criminal faster.
Yes, because stolen weapons are infinitely easier to find by knowing who used to have the gun.

Another scenario is that a body is found with a .44 bullet in it, as the cause of death. Now every .44 owner within a certain radius is a person of interest. How long before legislation is pushed to allow ballistics matching on all those .44s without a warrant or just cause, in the name of catching the criminal faster?

The words "impulse buy" should never be used to describe the sale of a weapon.
Why not? You may have considered buying one, given it thought, discussed with your spouse, and decided you want one. But prices are kind if high. Then you are at a flea market while on vacation far from home and you see one you like for a good price. But there will be a background check, it may take longer then the flea market is open. The vendor is from Ohio and you are from Georgia. Meanwhile, the criminal met his vendor in the alley.

One assumes that there would be a system in place to facilitate it.
You make it sound like its an app. The last time the government tried to develop a new electronic system was for VA records Since then the paper backlog is big that the structural integrity of the floor they are stored on is bring compromised. Yeah, let those guys put a system in place to facilitate the process. They can't even do it for the people we are supposed to care about.

The customer would pay a bond to the vendor, as a sort of security deposit. Then vendor would then have to run the background check, and would be entitled to keep the downpayment should the customer fail the check. If the customer passes, they then pay the remaining amount, and receive the gun - even if it has to be sent to them.
So now a gun buyer should gamble on if they pass or not? They won't try if they know they won't pass.

And you do know there are strict rules on shipping weapons, especially interstate shipping, right? Some states have even stricter rules.

As for people who receive guns through an inheritance, a will is a legally-binding document, and so it would not be difficult for a provision to be included where a background check is carried out on the intended receipient before the will is read.
Opening medical records to scrutiny because your dad died, even if you don't want the gun. Awesome. That's almost as offensive as inheritance tax. And you can't just say,"Eh, let my brother have it."


The fact that you said "if" leads me to believe that it is a genuine concern of yours, however remote you think the chances of it happening are.
In a world with Bradley Manning, vague answers on domestic drone use, warrantles wire tapping, Homeland Security domestic terrorist profiles naming whole political philosophies, and politicians like Michael Bloomberg, who wants to regulate you down to the foods you eat, yes it is a believable possibility. And lets not ignore the fact that this country exists purely because this happened with our previous government. There was a war and everything.

No check, no gun. That's the way it works.
Creating black market sales. That's the way that works.

If the store is too expensive and/or the sale cannot be completed in time, one assumes that the customer would be able to opt out before completing any stage of the transaction.
The customer shouldn't have to opt out because the government is a hinderance.

The fact that you're so quick to dismiss it demonstrates that you're in no position to judge it.
I went to college with survivors of the Paducah shooting. I was their age when it happened in a school in my state and I personally saw them struggle with PTSD as college freshmen. You have no idea what I am in a position to judge. I don't wave that fact around like some flag of legitimacy because, unlike the president, I have respect for the dead and those left behind.

They are.
Not in the US.

That's what the ratings system is for.
It is a voluntary, industry-created system here where we put our own pants on and don't ask the government to protect us from ourselves.

It's intended to keep violent games from impressionable children. Minors need to be accompanied by an adult when purchasing any game with a particular rating, and the burden of responsibility falls to parents to ensure that their children play games with appropriate content.
I wonder why some feel parental responsibility must be mandated by law.

I'm sorry, but that is disrespectful. You don't like my argument, so you pick at one of the details and claim it's exploitative, and try and use that to undermine my entire argument, as if you're trying to shame me into silence. But that in itself is exploitative, and therefore disrespectful.
You want me to not think at least part of your argument is disrespectful? Then don't argue against statistics with, "Tell the families that." Don't dispute logic and statistics by playing on heart strings.

I know this makes me sound like an ass, but here goes: Tragedy happens. Life sucks. People die. As long as humans live and breath this will be an undeniable fact. I have very personal and intimate knowledge of this and if I reacted to every crisis with my emotions I wouldn't be able to get out of bed.

If suggesting we slow down and examine situations with logic and critical thinking is disrespectful, then so be it. I want a working solution.

You want to know what I hear when I read your posts? This:

"My right to own a gun is more important than the rights of ten people to live free from the threat of violence. And even if, by giving up my own right to own a gun, I could better protect the rights of those ten people, I wouldn't do it, because my fear of enabling some vague and baseless threat to take form is more justified than the grief that any victim of gun violence has ever experienced."
This reminds me of something:
Benjamin Franklin
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Is this really about the victims? Really? When any gun control people talk like this all I hear is hypocrisy.

And it is hard not to when this was a publicly admitted strategy by the president's chief of staff.



After that, what should I think when the president trots out victims' families?



If they cared about children being killed they would be arguing this all the time. They wouldn't wait for a strong emotional event, they would create a well-formed argument based on logic and statistical data that stands on its own merits at any time. If the deaths of children were more than a tool there would be outrage at a joint US/NATO strike killing 11 children last week. Where was the outrage? Where are the emotional reactions, the stories of their young lives? Why don't we complain about malaria killing millions of kids in Africa and fight to allow DDT? Are the birds that much more important?

Call me disrespectful all you want, but be ready to explain why it only matters when you have a specific political policy to push.

You put great emphasis on the Second Amendment. Perhaps, though, you should consider Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person."
What about my security of person? See this is the problem with this wish list of happy thoughts, it self contradicts and is impossible to implement.

If, by giving up your right to bear arms, you could better guarnatee the right to life, liberty and the security of person, then it is a price worth paying a hundred times over.
I don't think this legislation better guarantees jack squat. And giving up one liberty for someone else's? Read my sig quote.
 
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Honestly though, pro gun rights people are happier about this than they should be. It was a good litmus test to show that we really can stand together and that there are more people out there who see the logic than previously thought, but we shouldn't celebrate that our rights didn't get infringed this time. It's a bit like celebrating a mugger being unsuccessful. We still need to fix the problem.

I'm all for addressing the problem, I don't like politicians throwing things at the wall to see what sticks or sounds caring when the proposals clearly will not solve anything.

We should not have to celebrate defending our freedoms in the face of hurt victims, we should celebrate our freedom everyday as a whole together.

I am angered we actually go the wrong direction with knee jerk reactions that violate our citizens. The healthcare part is most troubling to me.
 
That's interesting, given that the vast majority of people who are interested in running others' lives are not from my generation but from ones before it. My parents' generation, the baby boomers in particular. They've had over 40 years to stop messing up and they haven't managed it. Meanwhile, kids like myself are more the most defiant of authority since our parents were hippies, except that we aren't hopped up on drugs in public thinking LSD will cure all our problems.

Or maybe that paragraph right there illustrated the point exactly.
Well, it just lists college because that is when the testing is done. And keep in mind, this doesn't mean everyone is a narcissist, just that it is more common now. But from the interview the researchers have been giving, the millenials are the worst.

Don't see it? Look at hipsters. Watch social media. I mean, just observe how people act. And did you miss the one percent rallies?

Also keep in mind that a narcissist is more willing to run for political office. We become exposed to the actions of narcissists as they get older. And don't confuse automatons with narcissists. Just because your mom might say she agrees with the narcissist politician doesn't make her a narcissist too. The narcissist just convinced her to agree.

But all you need to do to see it in your generation is watch them with their phones, connecting them to the whole world, and a speaking platform, at any given time.
 
And as I have also pointed out - which you have apparently overlooked - there are loopholes in the current laws.

As with any law in this country ... there are loopholes.

You only have to undergo a background check if you are purchasing a gun from a store. You do not have to undergo one through a private sale or a purchase at a gun show, unless there is an existing state law in force.

Wrong ! Attend a gun show and see for yourself how one operates. You'll soon change your tune. By the way, it's federal law I believe you may have been referring to.

Perhaps the problem is in the wording of the legislation

No, not at all. The problem is the lying by these crooked ass anti-gun politicians behind the legislation.

The words "impulse buy" should never be used to describe the sale of a weapon.

Why ? Just last weekend I impulse bought a mint 1951 Russian Red SKS with 3 30 rd. banana mags, 100 rds. of ammo, along with the accompanying factory bayonette. Hell yeah it was an impulse buy @ $600.00. The problem would be what ?

As for people who receive guns through an inheritance, a will is a legally-binding document, and so it would not be difficult for a provision to be included where a background check is carried out on the intended receipient before the will is read.

This proposed legislation would have easily vetoed any will. "You die, your gun is gone" ... end of story.

Ever been to a gun show here? There might be 5 private citizens walking around trying to sell one of their own guns in a sea of thousands of people. Everything else is sold by dealers and has to follow the usual rules. Surveys of criminals in jail have shown that a statistically insignificant portion of those criminals bought a gun this way. Pretending this would do anything, let alone stop a Newtown is naïve at best.



That's good. Step 1: Demonize the opposition and make them out to be a bunch of paranoid crazies.

It's the first step because people like Bloomberg, Cuomo, and Feinstein have literally said that it's the first step. When are we allowed to be mad and push back without being called paranoid? I'd much prefer stopping all of this dead in it's tracks than allowing for the incremental legislation that is slowly eroding our freedoms.



Gladly. It is very sad that they lost loved ones but 300,000,000+ other people shouldn't be giving up freedoms and privacy from government because 26 people were killed by 1 psycho. The guns didn't kill anyone. The mentally unstable guy who stole the gun from a legal gun owner did.



Good. People should spend more time worrying about their own lives and their own rights. I don't give a damn about all of the internet groupthink and fake trendy compassion floating around on social media. I care about me. Being constantly afraid of a statistically improbable event taking your life sounds an awful lot like the paranoid irrational thinking that you keep accusing us of having. I'll save you the time of saying it. I'm a cruel, uncaring bastard.

Obama and his people have not once given a good explanation of how any of their proposed laws were supposed to save lives. That is because the legislation wouldn't have made a difference. It wouldn't have prevented future shootings, and it wouldn't have prevented the day to day killings in every city. Hell, I would have had a lot more respect and actually believed that they were sincere if they had at least been looking to ban handguns. It was never about saving lives though. They made up statistics that have been debunked time and time again while parading around the families of the deceased for their own gains.

They didn't legislate to help improve mental health in the country. Instead they just wanted to make sure the government had a record of it in a database somewhere.

The states that have already managed to pass stricter gun control (my home state of Maryland being one of them) didn't focus on raising the minimum penalties for crimes committed with firearms. They didn't try to make sure that the career criminals and repeat offenders who use stolen weapons to kill people would stay off the streets. No, instead they made sure to make it a crime if a legal gun owner doesn't report a stolen gun quickly enough. They passed a law so that would-be gun owners need to get a license (after giving up their finger prints like a criminal) to purchase a firearm. A license to exercise a RIGHT enumerated in the Constitution? It is only to inconvenience and discourage law-abiding citizens. It is only to continue to demonize good people and a behavior that is deeply rooted in the tradition of this country. Criminals will continue to buy guns on the black market. The government is supposed to pursue and prosecute criminals who lie on their forms trying to purchase firearms through legal shops. It doesn't though.

But you're right. Expanded background checks at the price of our privacy was totally going to solve the problem.

*** golfclap *** :bowdown:

That's nothing more than paranoid rhetoric. When has your government ever made a serious effort to take your guns from you?

New York ? Hmmmmmmm.

And why do you seem to think that this is just the first step in a greater plan to do exactly that?

You tell us. In case you forget, it did happen in your country. The writing was on the wall.
It's no wonder the American gun owners were getting a little paranoid.

Try telling that to the families of anyone who ever lost someone to a mass shooting.

Try telling that to the families who have lost loved ones due to alcoholism / drug abuse. What's the difference ?

and that your fear that the government is somehow conspiring to take your guns from you is more genuine than the grief the families of victims feel. It's appallingly selfish.

Not selfish in the least. Lest I remind you for a 3rd time ..... What happened with gun control in your country ? That's what I thought. I guess we are not allowed to defend our lives, my wifes life, my kids life if it were up to you. Because you are being selfish about me owning a gun. I'm not saying that I don't feel grief for families who lose a loved one to to gun violence, because I do. However, you need to come off of that high horse and see both sides of of the situation.

You want to debate gun control issues ? Maybe you better watch this video, followed by a summary. Evidently, you know more than our own police here in the states.

Watch this and read this and this.

More proof that Biden is an idiot.


http://news.yahoo.com/look-joe-biden-seriously-sketchy-gun-claim-200225552.html
 
In an ideal world, they would be totally banned and no one would have an issue with it.

Unfortunately they are so deep rooted in American society that a blanket ban would be futile, they could probably never get them all.

Then again why not give it a go? if you never try you never will. It may take decades, and in the long run everyone would be better off. :) The constitution/amendments (the right to bear arms bit) aren't written in stone it's getting a bit old and outdated now, although the majority of it is still valid and valuable of course. Maybe its time for a few updates before it turns into another bible! ;) (only a joke please don't take that seriously)
 
In an ideal world there would be no need to ban them, everyone would use them responsibly, there would be no criminals and we'd all sing kumbaya.
 
In an ideal world, they would be totally banned and no one would have an issue with it.

Ideal and real are are on two different ends of the spectrum.

Unfortunately they are so deep rooted in American society that a blanket ban would be futile, they could probably never get them all.

Not in your life, your kids life, nor in your grandchild's life would they ever get them all.

Then again why not give it a go? if you never try you never will.

Does 1994 ring a bell ? It didn't work.
 
In an ideal world there would be no need to ban them, everyone would use them responsibly, there would be no criminals and we'd all sing kumbaya.

But they don't, do they? So that a bit of a moot point.


Don't mind him, just another misinformed Brit. Who knew that mass media talks utter crap?

Media? Where and when did I mention anything from the media?

If you want to generalise like that, then lets just let the misinformed Americans continue blowing each other away, when in fact it is possible for a nation to function without every citizen being armed to the teeth with deadly weapons.

Ideal and real are are on two different ends of the spectrum.



Not in your life, your kids life, nor in your grandchild's life would they ever get them all.



Does 1994 ring a bell ? It didn't work.

Yep, why I used the word Ideal, and not Real

That's pretty much what I said isn't it

Are you referring to this?

Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act

Commonly referred to as the "Assault Weapons Ban," this bill banned the manufacture, possession, and importation of new semiautomatic assault weapons and large-capacity ammunition feeding devices (or magazines) for civilian use.

Criteria for semiautomatic assault weapons that fall under the ban are provided as well as a list of 19 specific firearms.

Prohibits juveniles from possessing or selling handguns and directs the attorney general to evaluate proposed and existing state juvenile gun laws.


Sounds pretty sensible to me, if things like this are not brought in, nothing will ever change, if people insist on having firearms of any kind, people will continue to die by them, innocence/guilt regardless. But if you don't want change, then by all means carry on as you are.

It gives every citizen the power to be judge, jury and executioner even if their life is not actually in danger just that they thought it was, then claim self defence. (yes I appreciate some criminals can be armed, that stems from the root of the problem of proliferation) I recall earlier in the thread the biker who got shot in the chest just for approaching a womans vehicle, as an example.

I don't live there, and wouldn't want to If I felt the need to have firearms in my home to feel safe. This is merely an observation/opinion and know there are valid arguments for both sides of the fence. That's just mine from an outside of the bubble perspective.
 
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You are the one that brought up ideals, I gave the proper perspective on them. We both know neither scenario is practical.

Well we can agree to have different ideals then, yours still involves guns, mine does not 👍
 
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What about that makes you think that the government should further regulate firearms, and what government regulation do you think would make a difference in that case?
 
What about that makes you think that the government should further regulate firearms, and what government regulation do you think would make a difference in that case?
Don't know much about the gun law in US but things should be done to prevent so many accidental shootings occurring. I think there should be more age restrictions in being allowed to use a gun, as I understand some of the laws depending on the state, there is no minimum age for long guns.
 

What this calls for is jail terms for anyone who leaves a loaded gun lying around so 5 year old kids can pick them up and shoot their siblings with it. Stupidity such as this needs to be weeded out of the gene pool through incarceration. Would you leave a bottle of bleach lying around for a kid to play with? A can of turpentine? Some hunting knives?
 
They don't let 5 year olds walk into Wal-Mart and buy rifles no matter what state you're in; and there's little that can be done to legislate out stupid people like their parents who left a loaded gun laying around the house.
 
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