Guns

  • Thread starter Talentless
  • 5,167 comments
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Which position on firearms is closest to your own?

  • I support complete illegality of civilian ownership

    Votes: 120 15.5%
  • I support strict control.

    Votes: 244 31.5%
  • I support moderate control.

    Votes: 164 21.2%
  • I support loose control.

    Votes: 81 10.5%
  • I oppose control.

    Votes: 139 17.9%
  • I am undecided.

    Votes: 27 3.5%

  • Total voters
    775
Why do you assume that it would have done nothing to prevent the Sandy Hook massacre? And why do you assume it will do nothing to prevent a future tragedy?
I can't state that it would prevent a future tragedy, but I can prove to you that it would prevent nothing, in general. And that proof is the fact that I would simply never buy or sell a gun in a manner that would require a background check. I'm one of 300,000,000 people in this country. I wonder how many others will simply ignore the law and conduct black market business.

Are you serious?

:lol:
About what? About the exchange that I interpreted? I mean, that's how I read it so I guess yeah, I'm serious about that.
 
Why do you assume that it would have done nothing to prevent the Sandy Hook massacre?
Other than the facts that he didn't own the guns he used (meaning no background check required for him to get them) and that Connecticut had a background check system already in place at the time?

Other than those two tidbits, I can think of no reason.

And why do you assume it will do nothing to prevent a future tragedy?
Other than the two above tidbits, because every criminal doesn't suddenly stop when a law is in place to make then check in with the government before continuing their illegal activity.

Or do you just think that everyone has the right to bear arms, including violent criminals and the dangerously unstable?
Quick, point at the boogeyman and scream, then take the rights of the law abiding when everyone is distracted and emotional.

No legislation should ever be made in reaction to singular or rare tragic events, particular not when emotions are still high, and definitely never, ever, ever by placing your soapbox on the graves of the victims. That is why I get felt up any time I enter an airport or government building and that is why no one cares that Obama has killed far more children than any school shooter.
 
Why do you assume that it would have done nothing to prevent the Sandy Hook massacre?
I thought it was a factual statement. Which part did I make a mistake of assuming?
And why do you assume it will do nothing to prevent a future tragedy?
I said no such thing. Now you are back to putting opinions in other peoples' mouths. :dunce:
Or do you just think that everyone has the right to bear arms, including violent criminals and the dangerously unstable?
I could swear you are a heavy drinker. Do I think "everyone", including violent criminals & dangerously unstable has the right to bear arms? Wow, the question sounds legit & is very intriguing, but I don't know, I have to think about it.[/scarcasm]

Unlike the NRA, GOA, also other Pro-Second Amendment members on gtplanet, I am for better gun control, including gun control on private sales.

Yeah, me & my assumptions. You would know about assumptions. :lol:
 
:lol: a6

And back to the thread now, I'm going to try and find the answer to the question you asked a bit ago. I think the universal check simply meant for all gun show sales, I'm not sure if it included party to party.
 
Quick, point at the boogeyman and scream, then take the rights of the law abiding when everyone is distracted and emotional.
I fail to see how the legislation would have taken away the rights of law-abiding citizens. The entire point of increased background checks was to try and prevent the sale of weapons to people who would be considered dangerous if they possessed those weapons. If people are complaining that there is a background check at all, then why are they even trying to buy a weapon in the first place?

No legislation should ever be made in reaction to singular or rare tragic events
And if Sandy Hook was the only instance of it happening, then perhaps I'd agree with you. But it's not the only instance - just the most recent.
 
Found this, still searching for the text of the amendment. No surprise it's hard to find.

The Senate is scheduled to begin voting at 4 p.m. on the most sweeping gun legislation in two decades. A bipartisan plan to expand background checks at gun shows and in online sales – a compromise deal by Senators Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania

EDIT: here it is

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/11/manchin-toomey-background-checks-bill_n_3065100.html

and

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/152165893/Public-Safety-and-Second-Amendment-Rights-Protection-Act

👍



Rights protection act LMAO, dare I say it again? Fail
 
The entire point of increased background checks was to try and prevent the sale of weapons to people who would be considered dangerous if they possessed those weapons.

The Star Tribune did a couple of stories on how people illegally obtained their weapons. Many people stole the weapons from legal owners, and others simply purchased these stolen guns from the thieves. A lot of crime occurs with these stolen guns, and background checks would not stop them.
 
My two cents: Criminals are going to take the path of least resistance. That's human nature in general. If I was going to commit a crime, I would find the place that I could successfully commit my crime without the possibility of bodily harm. If I knew the school I hypothetically was going to assault had no guns or weapons on campus, that makes it a sitting duck for an easy attack. On the other hand, if said school had a select few teachers/administrators that are armed and trained with firearms, I would think twice before stepping into that building.
 
On the other hand, if said school had a select few teachers/administrators that are armed and trained with firearms, I would think twice before stepping into that building.
How many of these high school shootings ended with the shooter surviving to stand trial?
 
How many happened in 'gun free zones', that is actually the question :dopey:

We've been down this road already in the teachers with guns thread 👍
 
Keep being silly if you wish, you already know my stance as it's clear as day :rolleyes:
Hey now, I never claimed to have the best memory. :lol:

How many of these high school shootings ended with the shooter surviving to stand trial?
I suppose they all would have survived to stand trial if they hadn't killed themselves with their own guns. Nevertheless, your question doesn't really have anything to do with his statement.
 
prisonermonkeys
How many of these high school shootings ended with the shooter surviving to stand trial?

I see what you're saying, but how many children died because the cops took precious minutes driving to the school?
 
The Star Tribune did a couple of stories on how people illegally obtained their weapons. Many people stole the weapons from legal owners, and others simply purchased these stolen guns from the thieves. A lot of crime occurs with these stolen guns, and background checks would not stop them.
I don't know why, but this is a fact that Americans are aware, but almost always ignored by the anti-gun crowd. :confused: If gun control advocates really cared about taking guns away from the criminals, this would be the point they would be pushing, so thank you for bringing it up. 👍 At least this & IMO, requiring private firearm transactions to go through FFL.

I know this isn't really the popular position in this thread, but if I was a criminal, with just $500 or so in my pocket, I could easily score a decent handgun from a private seller in the current system.
 
I fail to see how the legislation would have taken away the rights of law-abiding citizens.

Lest you forget what happened in your own country ??? Registration led to confiscation.

How many of these high school shootings ended with the shooter surviving to stand trial?

Who really cares ? A man walks into a school, shoots the hell out of a bunch of innocent 6 year kids leaving them for not. You really care if this person stands trial ? Really ? Great, just great, now we as tax payers get to support this idiot for the rest of his prison born life. While at the same time the parents are left grieving, knowing that the man who killed their 6 year old daughter for no apparent reason is still living ...... a criminal holds no quarter bud.
 
Even with a 'check' law in place you would be able to do that, kinda the point of our objections.
But let's say I'm selling my handgun to some dude who answered my ad. Today, the best I can reasonably do is check his drivers license, right? Write up a simple contract with the serial numbers written down?

If it was mandatory to go through FFL, like with retail sales, surely, the transaction would be flagged? Of course, another popular method for the thugs is to get their wife/girlfriend with clean record to straw purchase, but that's a whole another discussion.
 
I see your point.

In the state I live in you can look up someone on the internet for free and see if they are a felon. I have the concern also, a bit different then you maybe, I don't want to be responsible for a firearm after it leaves my hands so... I do write a silly paper when I sell one or whatever. Cover your ass I guess but imo the criminal will still easily get the gun no mater how many check laws we put on the books.

Maybe it will discourage clean people from a dirty deal at best.
 
Personally, I see it as a considerable loophole, but I can certainly respect your position. I'm not even an American Citizen. :lol:
 
The best way I can put it is "I don't want my business an open book for all to see" I'm big on property rights, and a weapon falls into that category. It's no ones business and it's way to easy to demonize someone who has done nothing wrong.

I've done some decent size business here and it bugs me to no end that I have to register and be scrutinized by factions that are not involved in the transactions. We live under a microscope and become de-humanized imo.

I'm tired, hope I'm making sense. Did you find the info you wanted on that proposed amendment? I posted the full text but it was a ninja edit :P
 
I fail to see how the legislation would have taken away the rights of law-abiding citizens.
So you see no problem with the check system being exempt from health privacy laws, so that by simply seeking to purchase a gun your entire medical history is available to law enforcement from that time on? Doctor/patient confidentiality would mean jack. Or that the attorney general and FBI will have a listing of everyone who has been checked and their guns, so that if they ever do decide to ban guns they can show up at your door, with their guns, to confiscate them. They will know exactly who refuses to comply and begin to hunt them down.

But hey, nothing like weakening a few other amendments in the name of pretending to stop criminals.

The entire point of increased background checks was to try and prevent the sale of weapons to people who would be considered dangerous if they possessed those weapons.
Just like speed limits prevent speeding, drug laws prevent addicts, and no ex-convicts own a gun under current laws.

Obey your leaders, they know exactly what they are doing.

If people are complaining that there is a background check at all, then why are they even trying to buy a weapon in the first place?
Because it is their right and they want to. And that should be all that matters.


And if Sandy Hook was the only instance of it happening, then perhaps I'd agree with you. But it's not the only instance - just the most recent.
Still rare. Statistically more rare than winning the lottery in fact. If the anti-gun people really cared they would have been fighting for this at all times, since far more people die in daily shootings. Of course, that is a hard case to argue when violent crimes have been decreasing in the absence of these restrictions.


Honestly, the anti-gun crowd sounds just like the anti-video games crowd.
 
The anti anti crowd :lol:

A lack of personal responsibility and a tendency towards jealousy is all it is tbh. Why do they feel the need to run others lives, most likely what creates the criminal in the first place lol.
 
Why do they feel the need to run others lives, most likely what creates the criminal in the first place lol.

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Now, guess how we then get quotes like this:

24297_470465879692996_1634528731_n.jpg
 
I'm tired, hope I'm making sense.
It does help me understand your position better, also the position of other members with similar view to yours, actually. 👍 Strongest argument I heard against this was a example I heard brought up on a radio show(I think). How a law like this would complicate someone inheriting firearms from their father, grandfather, etc.

Still, if people justify background checks on any retail, or transaction involving party with Federal Firearms License, I think it makes sense to background check any ownership transfers. I'm not sure if Government should be recording the transaction details, but I see the sole action of background checking as a necessity.

If background check is against the Constitution, I would reconsider my position. It would be scary though, as any crooks would be able to just pick up gun & ammo from any sporting goods stores, pawn shops, even big box stores when law prohibits them from doing so.
Did you find the info you wanted on that proposed amendment? I posted the full text but it was a ninja edit :P
I couldn't find it. I then went skimming through handful of news articles regarding today's senate rejection of the bill, but not one mentioned private sales. :crazy:
 
LOL FK, I'm with you on that.

If background check is against the Constitution, I would reconsider my position. It would be scary though, as any crooks would be able to just pick up gun & ammo from any sporting goods stores, pawn shops, even big box stores when law prohibits them from doing so.

I couldn't find it. I then went skimming through handful of news articles regarding today's senate rejection of the bill, but not one mentioned private sales. :crazy:

I'm old enough to tell you; when I first bought guns we had no such laws, I don't buy it helping lower crime, in fact all we will do is create criminals imo(I don't mean actual criminals, I mean made up ones to mess with)

I posted links to the entire text here, if private sales is not in it, then you can see just how silly our gov is being 👍
 
Or that the attorney general and FBI will have a listing of everyone who has been checked and their guns, so that if they ever do decide to ban guns they can show up at your door, with their guns, to confiscate them.
You do realise that when you buy a gun, you are already subject to a background check, right? The proposed legislation simply sought to broaden the coverage of those background checks, to make them mandatory for sales where no previous background check was needed.

They will know exactly who refuses to comply and begin to hunt them down.

But hey, nothing like weakening a few other amendments in the name of pretending to stop criminals.
That's nothing more than paranoid rhetoric. When has your government ever made a serious effort to take your guns from you? And why do you seem to think that this is just the first step in a greater plan to do exactly that?

Because it is their right and they want to. And that should be all that matters.
Again, they are already subject to a background check when they buy from a store. You have the right to buy a gun - but you cannot purcahse one without submitting to a background check.

Still rare. Statistically more rare than winning the lottery in fact.
Try telling that to the families of anyone who ever lost someone to a mass shooting.

This is an attitude that I've seen from a lot of gun advocates: that your right to own a gun is more important than someone else's right not to be afraid that one statistical anomaly will take their life; and that your fear that the government is somehow conspiring to take your guns from you is more genuine than the grief the families of victims feel. It's appallingly selfish.
 
I'm old enough to tell you; when I first bought guns we had no such laws, I don't buy it helping lower crime, in fact all we will do is create criminals imo(I don't mean actual criminals, I mean made up ones to mess with)
I did not know that, but again, it would serve as a open door to real criminals. I do see your point on such law needlessly criminalizing people for minor legal violations though. This is America, not Japan or U.K. 👍 Let's just agree to disagree on this one, I think you are being way too stubborn. :P j/k
I posted links to the entire text here, if private sales is not in it, then you can see just how silly our gov is being 👍
I'd be surprised if it's not in there. There were so many pages in there, and way the document was scanned wasn't very clear, so I think I probably missed it. :crazy:
 
The good news prisonmonkey? We are winning, the gov is not able to do jack. That is why we are happy 👍

EDIT: All good a6 :)
 
You do realise that when you buy a gun, you are already subject to a background check, right?
You are right, which makes your questioning of someone saying it wouldn't have prevented the Sandy Hook massacre even more crazy. As you just pointed out, because it was already there.

The proposed legislation simply sought to broaden the coverage of those background checks, to make them mandatory for sales where no previous background check was needed.
Yes, that was all it simply did. I didn't read the text of it to know it adds health privacy exemptions or directs the attorney general to keep a list of all approved guns. It is just simply a "broadening."

And this broadening, of course, creates a pain in the ass for people who look to buy a gun off a friend in a quick impulse buy while visiting, or while at a gun show, or receiving it as an inheritance. We have the worlds largest yard sale (127 Yard Sale) go near my house. Churches and community centers rent out spots on their land to hundreds of vendors as a fund raiser. Some of those vendors are selling guns, and some working antiques or replicas. How the hell is he supposed to run background checks from the middle of a field?

It's unrealistic legislation that risks private information leaks and is unfeasible to carry out. Nevermind that they cannot guarantee it can be completed in 48 hours. They basically were killing a large part of the collector market. But they are just second-class citizens that Biden thinks get of on holding the gun like some would driving a Ferrari.

That's nothing more than paranoid rhetoric. When has your government ever made a serious effort to take your guns from you? And why do you seem to think that this is just the first step in a greater plan to do exactly that?
Didn't I say if? Yes, yes I did. Quit taking words out of my mouth.

That said, they violate the 4th and 6th amendment protections of every airline passenger, as well as some citizens at home. But it is to prevent a tragedy caused by a statistical anomaly, so it is all good.

And there are some who want to take all guns, so there is a movement to do it, even if it is small right now.

Again, they are already subject to a background check when they buy from a store. You have the right to buy a gun - but you cannot purcahse one without submitting to a background check.
You asked why they are trying to buy a gun. I gave you a reason. If the store is too expensive, the check can't be completed in time, etc, etc. they have a number of legitimate reasons to not want the check.

I'm not being unreasonable here. A check for a criminal history at a dealer store is a reasonable thing. Extending that check the way they want to, to unfeasible and unenforcable situations and opening your medical records and putting you on file with the government is too far.


Try telling that to the families of anyone who ever lost someone to a mass shooting.
Heart strings, really? I thought I covered my thoughts on putting your soapbox on the graves of victims.

But just so you know how effective that pathetic ploy is with me, my wife tries it every single time I let our daughter do something that all the "experts" say is dangerous, like eating peanut butter. I tell her it is all just a bunch of highly unlikely scenarios overblown by super paranoid idiots, and she pulls the "tell that to the families of the dead children" line out. Find some new overly predictable material. You aren't getting anywhere with that.

This is an attitude that I've seen from a lot of gun advocates: that your right to own a gun is more important than someone else's right not to be afraid that one statistical anomaly will take their life
Because history has shown us that power is most abused in those situations. By the way, do you think that violent video games should be heavily regulated, or even banned in the off chance they do create violent sociopaths? If not then;

think_of_the_children.jpg


And tell it to the families of the kids killed by video gamers (all mass shooters, apparently).

and that your fear that the government is somehow conspiring to take your guns from you is more genuine than the grief the families of victims feel. It's appallingly selfish.

I don't fear it. I don't even own a gun for them to take. But I won't open doors for them to do it. And I won't tolerate politicians, like Bloomberg, saying they can do it.



Now, get off the graves. It's disrespectful.
 
Arora, that was my fault. When you said "they" I thought you meant "our Senators."

Obama's reaction to the events was classic. He sent out an email titled "Shameful" and went on to talk about how he was with the families of the Sandy Hook victims and the rest of his standard nonsense.

I wish that a different word came to mind but the only one that does is well...

is_somepony_butthurt__by_dylandylan72-d4mh94z.png


Honestly though, pro gun rights people are happier about this than they should be. It was a good litmus test to show that we really can stand together and that there are more people out there who see the logic than previously thought, but we shouldn't celebrate that our rights didn't get infringed this time. It's a bit like celebrating a mugger being unsuccessful. We still need to fix the problem.
 
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